Charles Starkweather: The Murder Victim Who Lived

In the winter of 1957-58, 19 year old Charlie Starkweather went on a killing spree that would claim eleven victims before he and his accomplice, Caril Ann Fugate, were caught. At their trial, both were found guilty of murder. Charlie was executed while Caril was given a life sentence, later reduced.

In The 12th Victim, Nicola Marsh explores what happened during the killing spree from Caril’s perspective. She shows how, contrary to what was said at the time, Caril was not Charlie’s girlfriend but his ex; neither was she his willing accomplice but his hostage. And, most importantly, although convicted of murder, she killed no one.

As Nicola tells Matthew Sherwood, the Starkweather murders “coincided with the birth of live television news”. This gave both Charlie and Caril an immediate notoriety that encompassed all of America. In the years since, the case has also influenced the arts. Nicola cites Badlands (1973), True Romance (1993), and Natural Born Killers (1994) as films all inspired by what happened.

They also explore how The 12th Victim was made – from Nicola’s use of archival footage to the different ways she recreated key scenes. And they look at the question of what makes the true crime genre so popular, Nicola offers this succinct answer: “You get to experience all the things you're afraid of, but in a very safe way.”

At the heart of it all, however, stands a young girl whose life was ruined by the actions of others. Starkweather’s malice, incompetent policing, and bad decisions made by her attorney gave Caril Ann Fugate little chance of escaping the nightmare. Nevertheless, she continues to protest her innocence and seek a pardon.

“I think what really I found particularly compelling about the story was that for women, most women, we've all been in slightly sketchy situations. And the path out of it is laugh at the jokes until you have a clear exit strategy... If somebody gets a bit handsy, you don't turn around and punch them in the face, otherwise, you can end up dead.” – Nicola Marsh

Time Stamps

01:31 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this week’s film, The 12th Victim, and his guest, Nicola Marsh
04:21: – Nicola explains what The 12th Victim is about
08:45 – Caril Ann Fugate’s Tragic Dilemma: do what Charlie Starkweather says or risk the death of her family
12:06 – Nicola describes her reaction when she read the book on which the docu-series is based
12:40 – Discussing people’s assumption that bad people are Machiavellian 
13:01 – The dilemma that women face when dealing with dangerous people
14:03 – Nicola discusses Richard Ramirez, a serial killer known as the Night Stalker
15:49 – How and why the Starkweather murders fascinated the American public
16:45 – Caril’s PR disaster
18:45 – How Nicola got inside the heads of people in the 1950s, and the shortcomings of the police who investigated the case
22:15 – Charlie Starkweather’s parents’ response to the murders
23:02 – The influence of the Starkweather murders on cinema
24:03 – Nicola on how love puts fear into us
26:00 – Nicola on what the true crime genre offers viewers
28:52 – The challenges of making The 12th Victim
32:45 – The difficulties faced by films based on the Starkweather murders in respect of Caril Ann Fugate’s young age (14)
33:50 – Seeing Caril as guilty before revealing her to be innocent
34:22 – Filming in Nebraska
35:50 – What lead Charlie Starkweather to go on a killing spree
38:17 – Discussing Liz Ward, granddaughter of victims of Charlie Starkweather
40:05 – Nicola on what she hopes The 12th Victim’s legacy will be
45:22 – Nicola’s upcoming project: a film with singer, Demi Lovato
46:19 – Working with director Morgan Neville on a film about Bono and Edge of U2 and David Letterman

Resources:

The 12th Victim
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Nicola Marsh:

IMDb

More from Factual America:

Where the Truth Lies – Investigating MH370: The Plane That Disappeared
Girl in the Picture: A 25-Year Mystery Solved
I am Vanessa Guillen

Interesting Reading from Factual America:

7 New Netflix Biopics to Look out for in 2023
White Boy Rick: A Call for a Better American Justice System
16 Best Documentaries About Serial Killers
25 Best True Crime Documentaries
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10 Best Documentaries Of The 1950s

Transcript for Factual America Episode 128: Charles Starkweather: The Murder Victim Who Lived

Matthew Sherwood 00:00
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. The 12th Victim sheds new light on the infamous 1958 Charles Starkweather and Caril Ann Fugate murder case, in which the teenage couple was charged, and convicted, of brutally killing eleven victims at random in a case that gripped the nation. While there is no doubt about Starkweather's culpability, the series re-examines the guilty verdict of Caril Fugate, who was 14 years old at the time of the killings, and questions the media and judicial system's treatment of her despite her self-proclaimed innocence. Using archival and countless film and television series inspired by the killings, award-winning director, Nicola Marsh, also explores our continued obsession about a case that is more than 65 years old. Join us as we also discuss Nicola's next project, why true crime is so popular, and what it was like to film the new U2 documentary with David Letterman. Stay tuned.

Matthew Sherwood 01:07
Nicola Marsh, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Nicola Marsh 01:11
They're great. I'm envious of your hot drink that I just saw peek into the frame. But, besides from that.

Matthew Sherwood 01:18
There you go. I mean, if you wanted to go grab one we can always pause. I'm sure you would like to have a good cuppa. But...

Nicola Marsh 01:25
I mean, you know, I've got my, like, obligatory Los Angeles water because it's so dry here, but I think I'll survive.

Matthew Sherwood 01:32
How many... that's your day's intake in one go, isn't it?

Nicola Marsh 01:37
Yeah. It was just like, you know - I was like, fill up as, you know, and then through the day, I'll take sips.

Matthew Sherwood 01:42
Okay. Well, thanks again for coming on to the podcast. It's very much appreciated. For our listeners and viewers, just to remind you, we will be - Nicola's just - well, just released a film - a docu-series, The 12th Victim. It's on Showtime in, I guess since February sometime, in North America. Is it anywhere else, yet? Or is that in the works?

Nicola Marsh 02:05
You know, I don't actually know how that works, the international distribution. We made it knowing it was going to go to the US market, but, you know, Showtime is part of a much bigger company, so I'm sure that it will go other places eventually.

Matthew Sherwood 02:19
Okay. Well, well, thanks again, and congratulations, and thanks for making this docu-series. I really enjoyed it. So, I'm keen to talk to you more about it. But for the - many of our listeners, then; well, a good portion are in the US, so they've had a chance to see it, certainly, but many others have not. So, maybe start us off, if you don't mind, and tell us what The 12th Victim is all about.

Nicola Marsh 02:44
Right. So, if you're over 50 in North America, you've probably heard of Charles Starkweather. But if you're under 50, you probably haven't. But Charles Starkweather was this young kid in 1958, Nebraska, and he went on a killing rampage, and it coincided with the sort of birth of live television news. And so, he's on the run and the news is broadcasting it. And he's on the run with his girlfriend at the time. And I think that the whole way the murder spree unfolded was just so unbelievably jarring and shocking and exciting and titillating to America, that they couldn't keep their eyes off it. And if you look at the photos of, particularly Charles, but also, you know, Caril, you know, when they get captured - you know, not to ruin the surprise, but they get captured, he's wearing the shirt of this wealthy businessman that he's murdered. But he's been shot by the police. And he's got some of his blood is on the shirt. And he's incredibly handsome, and it's black and white photography, and he's just surrounded by, like, sheriffs and reporters, and it is one of the most eye catching dramatic imagery you can possibly imagine. And so, after they get captured, he goes to the electric chair, his girlfriend goes to prison. You know, filmmakers just - this was just such elixir, their story. And they made the movie Badlands, Terence Malik's movie Badlands, about them, and then Natural Born Killers and True Romance, and this whole sort of guy-girl-gun-car-across-America genre got spawned basically by these two. And what really intrigued me about the story was, after I did a little bit of research and talked to a couple of people who'd written a few books about it, his girlfriend who went to prison for 18 years is, like, manifestly innocent; like, completely innocent. And she's not even his girlfriend, she's his ex-girlfriend, that he is sort of like, completely coercing [her] to going with him. And so, that is the story that the series attempts to tell, which is really her story. And how in the world did she end up going to prison for 18 years. And how could she be innocent when she'd been alongside him for all these murders?

Matthew Sherwood 05:27
I mean, I think - and as you said, she's always maintained her innocence, right, from the get-go. And so, she was like, you know - I mean, what is that - it's interesting because what your film shows - I mean, your film captures so many things, and you've touched on all of them in your description, but maybe let's focus even on the events a bit in terms of - you know, what - I mean, what was going on there, because I think in terms of, you know, it's obvious - I mean, you said, it's obvious, she's innocent, but it's also very obvious that he's guilty, right; so - but quickly, people are already making up their minds about her culpability, aren't they? And in terms of - I mean, it's a - so, it's a window on where - one things it is, it's a window on where American justice system was at the time. And our views of these - of such events, which were quite jarring, would be jarring now, but were especially jarring then. And, you know, how did this - I think you said, but she's only 14, you know, how did this - how did this 14 year old get to be seen as so - and maybe I should - a brief stop. If you haven't seen it, you know, spoiler alerts and all that stuff that come with this.

Nicola Marsh 06:50
Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm gonna get some in some deep spoiler alerts any time now.

Matthew Sherwood 06:54
Well, you know - well go see it, or, if you haven't seen it, maybe we'll skirt around this, but, you know, it was - is it fair enough: it was almost a presumed guilty before proven innocent sort of element.

Nicola Marsh 07:09
Yes. I mean, even when I first started reading about this story. So, she comes home from school. And as far as the outside world knows, Charlie's already at her house. And they stay at the house for five days. And when they leave, her mum and dad and half-sister are dead. And so, it's hard not to imagine how they could have spent five days in the house, and she wouldn't have been somehow involved. And it's really - so, her story, though, which sounds a little far fetched, until you really think about the weather and the environment and how old she is, is like, she comes home from school, she's 14; her boyfriend's 19. She has dumped him the week earlier. And he's stormed off fuming, and he's got a real temper. And she gets home, and she opens the door, and he's standing there with a shotgun in her face. And he's like, You better listen to me, or I'm gonna have your entire family murdered and killed. They're being held hostage by my gang. And she looks around, and her family are nowhere around to be seen, and she believes it. What she doesn't know is, actually, they are - their bodies have already been - they've already been murdered and their bodies are in the outhouse round the back. And I'm like, how did she not know for five days? But it's the middle of winter. And he - we didn't put it in because it's slightly unsubstantiated, but she was like, he rolled her up in a carpet every night. Or he'd tie her to a chair; like, she wasn't, like, just roaming around freely. And she was extremely invested, I think, which is the bigger issue in this moment of real trauma, and dealing with this ex who she can visibly see is in, like, deep psychosis, in believing that her family is still alive, and that somebody's gonna get her out of this. This is not as bad as she thinks it is.

Matthew Sherwood 09:08
Yeah. And I think - yeah, no, it's - there's that - obviously, there's that element, but I think it's also - and I think - yeah, I mean, people should go see the film in terms of the details of the sort of the crime element of this and not giving anything too much away, but it's, as you've, you know, as you - so, they - this happens, and he ends up going on this, as you say this murder, killing spree across Nebraska and into Wyoming. And what you've also have captured is how it's - I mean - and as you say, anyone who's in their sort of 50s or younger, don't - some of us may not even - I mean, I grew up in the United States, I didn't really even - it didn't ring a bell for me. But we can talk more about that later because what did ring a bell was all those cultural references you mentioned. But - oh, I guess what I was going to say is actually - I mean, is that - what was the movie you - when you were going into this, is that the movie - did you know what you were going to be making? Because - or was it kind of as you got further into this, [you] realized what you had on your hands, was this situation of someone who was obviously innocent as you saw it.

Nicola Marsh 10:29
Well, as we started making the series, it was all based on a book and the book strongly makes the case for Caril's innocence - written by Linda and Steve. But I guess my sort of just generic, habitual skepticism was sort of kicking in as I'm sort of turning the pages and I'm like, why innocence-schminnocence. Like...

Matthew Sherwood 10:52
So, that's - by the way, to interrupt, that's my wife's reaction, when we first started watching. You know, right, you know, the five days thing. Yeah, how did she, you know, how did she not know, that kind of stuff, you know?

Nicola Marsh 11:04
But I think - I think there was this tendency to think of bad people who do bad things as being, like, extremely Machiavellian and clever and manipulative. So, the minute we associate badness, we're like, Well, of course, they're an arch-villain who is, like, doing all these things...

Matthew Sherwood 11:25
Right.

Nicola Marsh 11:26
And then we also fantasize about what heroes we will be in bad situations. And I think what really I found particularly compelling about the story was that for women, most women, we've all been in slightly sketchy situations. And the path out of it is, like, laugh at the jokes until you have a clear exit strategy. You don't, like - if somebody gets a bit handsy, you don't, like, turn around and punch them in the face, otherwise, you can end up dead. And I think - I just got off shooting as a DP, shooting this show called The Night Stalker, which is Richard Ramirez. Who's - You know, I'm assuming you're, like, a true crime aficionado, so you know all the killers.

Matthew Sherwood 12:14
No, well, then I should have my wife here because she is - she's the one that's the true crime aficionado in my house, but I'm more than - I'm the doc aficionado, but not necessarily true crime, specifically.

Nicola Marsh 12:25
Okay. So, Richard Ramirez is this guy in the 80s. He kills, like, I don't know, like 27 people in LA. It's like, unbelievable how many people he killed, in really grim ways. But, you know, there were several children and women that he assaulted and then let go. And then the - and they were always the ones that didn't fight back. And there's one woman who like, while Ramirez was killing her husband, she found a shotgun and pulled it on him. But then the shotgun jammed, and she never managed to kill him. And they never found that woman's eyeballs. Like, he killed her in - I can't remember how many stab wounds there were, but it was in the dozens. And it was such a - pairing that with this was like, if you are with somebody who's in a psychotic state, your only way out is to try and get their heart rate lower, and wait until you have a really foolproof exit strategy. Because anything less is gonna get you killed. And I think it's quite notable that like, as they're driving across the country, Charlie keeps on sort of asking Caril, like, do you love me? Are you still in love with me? And then even when he's in prison, he's writing to her, being like, Did you mean all those things you said to me? If you just imagine the dynamic of that, like, he still wants her. He wants to be her boyfriend. And he's forcing her to love him, but wants her to not acknowledge that.

Matthew Sherwood 13:58
And she's only 14, right.

Nicola Marsh 14:01
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 14:03
So, I mean...

Nicola Marsh 14:03
And she met him when [she] was 13. Like, she's really, like, very - a young 14.

Matthew Sherwood 14:12
But - so, there's that element to it. But then there's this element that - as you've already mentioned, but - it just - this is - this gripped - not only just gripped Lincoln, Nebraska, or a state, it gripped the nation, didn't it?

Nicola Marsh 14:27
Because they're so cinematic, those two. They get caught, and it's like, Wow, he looks like James Dean.

Matthew Sherwood 14:33
Yeah, he does.

Nicola Marsh 14:33
And he - and I think he'd watched Rebel Without a Cause the year before. And, like, the lead character in Rebel Without a Cause is called Jim Stark. And he's called Charlie Starkweather. And it's this outsider and like, I'm troubled, you can just see him being like, I'm that's - that's who I am. And so, he styles himself like that guy, and then the power of black and white photography is pretty astonishing, because I did see some pictures of him in color, and I was like, Oh, he looks a bit podgy, and you see his bad skin a bit better and, you know.

Matthew Sherwood 15:10
But, I mean, it's just - it - so, you've got some amazing archive here, right. So, I mean, and that's what's - I mean, one of the other things that struck me, but - I mean, what you have, it's the early days of television, but she, I mean, she actually goes on The Today Show, right. I mean, you know, it's PR is largely in its infancy, I would imagine; at least, that kind of PR. I mean, it's...

Nicola Marsh 15:36
And you can see they have no idea what they're doing. And, so that...

Matthew Sherwood 15:38
Oh my god - yeah.

Nicola Marsh 15:40
It's just a disaster. Like, the interview's terrible and - anyway.

Matthew Sherwood 15:45
And the poor lawyer who's told her to keep her cool. Not - I mean, it's a bad analogy, but it's almost like the, you know, the 1960 debate when they say, you know, Nixon came across looking all, you know, everyone just stopped, you know, lost their - you know, Nixon just came across really bad on camera because they had no appreciation for how you did come across on camera even then. And she, yeah, she comes off as this cool, maybe even conniving, older than she was.

Nicola Marsh 16:14
Yeah, and even as she grows up, I don't think she does very well on camera. She's, you know, the place where she does best on camera is those home videos, when she's relaxed, but she's a woman, I think, even as a young person, who sort of had her face up a bit because she'd come from really tough, wrong side of the tracks. And so she emoted a sort of aggressiveness about her that people immediately connected with psychotic murderess or murderer.

Matthew Sherwood 16:49
Or, you know, and at the time, true is, as you point out, I think it's, especially in Episode One, you know, this rise of teenage culture and rock and roll, and she's the bad girl, you know, you've already said wrong side of the tracks, but there's something about, you know, automatically, this assumption's made about who she is, in terms of, you know.

Nicola Marsh 17:09
Yeah. And I learned a lot, I think I really got inside the head of the 1950s adult. And understanding that sort of like, rock and roll is a bit like what I think of with, like, fentanyl. You know, I mean people really thought it was going to destroy your life, and in many ways, a lot of the things that nowadays would be like, pre-sex marriage or whatever, that would ruin your life. I mean, back then. And so, it was just seen as incredibly frightening for adults. And then she and he conformed to that sort of rockabilly look, and probably vibe as well. And then they were poor. And so, it was hard for people to have compassion for her, and critically, really critically, for the police. When they went over to that house, they went over to the house five times - I mean, not 5, 4, 3 - during the time when they were cooped up in the house, and she was the one who opened the door. So, they're either idiots or she's, like, ridiculously manipulative. And they weren't gonna go for the we're idiots story. So, they went for the, like, Oh well, she's, like, a stratospherically manipulative 14 year old, you've never seen anything the likes of it.

Matthew Sherwood 18:36
And then at the same time, I mean, I don't think we're giving too much away, there was this other case that they had been really slow to solve that, obviously, Charlie Starkweather was not just implicated, he did - we know he did the - he killed this fella, and they were, you know, if they had just not been seemingly idiots, then they would have - it would have - a lot, well, ten more people would still be alive, right.

Nicola Marsh 19:02
Right.

Matthew Sherwood 19:02
... or would have been alive. And her life wouldn't have been ruined.

Nicola Marsh 19:07
Yeah, I mean, I think that they really dropped the ball. But, you know, there just weren't any murders around. So, I don't think it was even on their radar that, like...

Matthew Sherwood 19:17
That's fair enough, yeah.

Nicola Marsh 19:18
It was such an extreme - I mean, there were two police officers for the whole city. And so - I think at night two patrol cars - and so, the idea that like, oh, this could be a big crime that they're unearthing when this 14 year old's acting a bit weird, when she opens the door. They were just like, Oh, she's poor. And her grandma's hysterical, keeps sending us over there, and it's annoying. I'm gonna go back and deal with our business.

Matthew Sherwood 19:25
And I think that's another thing going back to the stuff that you've, you know, the archive, is that, you know, the other thing that amazed me is that, you know, you've got these policemen and the prosecution and everyone just kind of - they're sort of naive themselves. They just answer all the questions that get thrown at them, you know, that you would never have...

Nicola Marsh 20:09
On how they killed them. They just held the news. They're like...

Matthew Sherwood 20:12
In these great accents that you don't even really hear anymore, even in the US, you know, from the 50s.

Nicola Marsh 20:18
Yeah, I mean, I've watched that footage, and it almost feels like a movie. Like, the hats, and the... It feels like you on sort of Raymond Carver - Chandler; maybe both of them...

Matthew Sherwood 20:29
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 20:31
You know, I mean, it's just so unreally distant, but so close, you know.

Matthew Sherwood 20:39
Yeah. Or that even while this is all going on, they just - because it's early days, I think, as you point out the local TV station had just gotten their cameras, right. They bring Charlie Starkweather's parents in, and just sit them down at a table, and that's what goes for TV, and they just ask them questions about him, you know, you wouldn't - you know, it's absolutely amazing. And it's an amazing...

Nicola Marsh 21:03
Yeah, and Sam has this sort of astonishing response to like, Were you with the boy or against the boy?

Matthew Sherwood 21:08
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 21:09
And he was like, Well, the first three murders, I kind of thought, well, stuff can happen, but by the time he killed the farmer, then I knew that this was not okay anymore. But, I mean, he's just genuinely thinking out loud.

Matthew Sherwood 21:21
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 21:21
Do you know? [He's] nervous. But he doesn't - he hasn't prepared anything.

Matthew Sherwood 21:27
But I guess, and then also further talking to you, then it is no surprise then why this continues to grip a nation and has certainly for decades now. And for someone my age and younger, we didn't even realize it. I didn't realize all these films are - it's not even obliquely inspired. I mean, they are directly inspired by this...

Nicola Marsh 21:49
Yeah. Like, True Romance has the same music. The theme music is the same as Badlands, and Badlands is directly about them.

Matthew Sherwood 21:57
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 21:59
Yeah, I mean, I think...

Matthew Sherwood 22:02
I mean, Natural Born Killers. I mean, they all took different, you know, different directions, with this. But it all goes back to this story.

Nicola Marsh 22:12
Yeah, I mean, I think that we feel - I mean, this is a bit of a like, psychological stretch, but I'm gonna say it anyway, I think love puts a lot of fear into us, love and sex and all those feelings.

Matthew Sherwood 22:27
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 22:27
So, I think sometimes we're like, Yeah, but it could it make you crazy, and could it make you kill a bunch of people? And we love the idea of sort of psychotic love. And this wasn't psychotic love. It was something much more mundane and kind of gross. But I think we have that fascination, which is why it keeps on popping up over and over again, is could love be pernicious?

Matthew Sherwood 22:52
I think that's a very good point. And then I guess there's just this slight subtext that a lot of these films we're talking about were the early 90s, so what was going on then that was causing us to revisit that, but yes, it's - I think it is a - it's an interesting point that maybe we'll give our - let's give our listeners a quick, early break here. And we'll be right back with Nicola Marsh, the director of the Showtime docu-series, The 12th Victim.

Factual America Midroll 23:20
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures, to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 23:40
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Nicola Marsh, the director of the Showtime docu-series, The 12th Victim. We were just talking about what love can do to us or what we think it might be able to do to us. I mean, what is - is this partly also the attraction of true crime, you think? That's the other thing your docu-series does a very good job of exploring. And I asked that question, actually, in a recent - fairly recent podcast, and we had to edit it out because the person said they had no idea why people were attracted to true crime, and that was how they made their living. But you've actually gone about and sort of answered that question with your film.

Nicola Marsh 24:25
Yeah, I mean, I think true crime is, for a lot of people, is like a mental roller coaster, right. You get to experience all the things you're afraid of, but in a very safe way. It's the same reason we like horror movies. You know, it's like, I want to be frightened, but I don't want to be actually afraid. And I think I tried to answer the question about why so many women watch true crime. [I] feel that statistic always feels a bit weird for me. I'm like, we watch [...] so much of it. But I think women are just much more afraid of rape and murder because we're more likely to be the victims of it. And I think most women, maybe not daily, but like once a month, you'll be walking down a street and think, Oh, shit. You know, it does cross your mind, like, and maybe men think that, too, but maybe not in an elevator when the doors close, and it's like...

Matthew Sherwood 25:23
Right, right.

Nicola Marsh 25:24
You know, three guys, who maybe don't look very friendly. I don't think men are thinking, Oh, this could be a weird situation. But women do have to think like that. And so watching true crime allows us to ride that roller coaster. And you'll notice that most of the true crime series resolve in capture and punishment. Very few true crime series are like, "... and we never found the guy," and, you know, "the justice system doesn't work."

Matthew Sherwood 25:52
Right. Could you get away with--- Could you get away with trying to make something like that?

Nicola Marsh 25:58
I don't think - I think it would be a real bummer for people. I think that people want sort of that even when bad things happen, there's retribution and that the world is safe, and we catch the guy, and we can explain why the guy did the thing. And the closer that the guy looks like somebody you know, the more thrilling the ride is; you know, the more he looks normal, the more he looks like Ted Bundy, the more you'll, "Oh, maybe it is that weird neighbor that I've been talking too much to." or whatever.

Matthew Sherwood 26:32
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 26:34
And I think that's a really thrilling ride for people. And I think also being able to engage your logic, and try and outsmart the series is a big one: "Well, that couldn't be true because of this." is really fun if it allows participation. And I think that's - you're always trying to sort of engage your audience to actually participate and not just be ingesting it passively.

Matthew Sherwood 26:54
I think maybe, for some of us guys, we're also just always a bit clueless. I think we're probably not even aware that we sometimes are - I mean, I know it's much more, as you said, for women, and that's that way, but we're probably just not even aware that we're in danger, when we are, you know.

Nicola Marsh 27:15
I agree.

Matthew Sherwood 27:16
I mean, what is the - what's the - what's the biggest challenge in covering such an iconic story? Because you've got all this, you've got all this....

Nicola Marsh 27:25
Well, so, there's not as much archival as you think.

Matthew Sherwood 27:29
Right.

Nicola Marsh 27:29
Like, some of the archive is a recreation that I shot to look like - not the stuff that looks like recrea; like, that stuff is, like, its color and it's obvious, but there's a lot of the black and white footage, I was like, Oh, I don't have anything for Charlie getting arrested or Caril getting arrested.

Matthew Sherwood 27:46
Right.

Nicola Marsh 27:47
So, I like took, like, an eight millimeter camera, and we got like a 50s police car and some uniforms, and just tried to shoot it really badly. But like, there's no way that an actual news crew would have been there when Charlie was getting arrested on some random road, and - but I was like, we don't have anything and I'm not going to animate it, because that's a bit...

Matthew Sherwood 28:08
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 28:08
... [not] right for the moment. And so, that was, I think - and then most of the recordings are recreations, because most of the stuff we had was just transcripts which is words on a page. It's a documentary, you can't just, like, pan down words. And so, we got actors, we re-recorded it, and we made it incredibly dirty the audio; so, that you'd sort of - you'd know you're reading the transcript. You would hear it and think, Oh, maybe there was a recording in the courtroom, which there never was but, like, just to allow yourself to be in that emotional space, and what it must have been like to say these words in a big room and a packed courtroom. It gives you that feeling. But sort of figuring out where the line is between being untrue is important to me. And I don't want to represent something that didn't - wasn't said, or wasn't done. But I also want people to feel what those words must have felt like at the time.

Matthew Sherwood 29:14
No, and I think you're - I mean, you're very upfront. It says the words of, right, you know. And so, well, some people may not put two and two together and realize that that means it's probably someone reading them, but, or acting them. But no, I think you're very - and I think that is - it's very powerful. I mean, we do have - we do know what Charlie Starkweather sounded like, right. So, you had to find someone who could come pretty close, but I guess it's about finding a good Nebraskan or Midwestern accent that someone's able to...

Nicola Marsh 29:43
And also the performance.

Matthew Sherwood 29:45
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 29:45
... you can't perform that, like, Well, I'm a psycho so I'm going to perform it like a psycho because psychos [don't] think they're psychos, so you have to get an actor who's great. I mean, the voice recording, just all of it, was amazing. The voice actor and the physical actor were different people, but they were both extraordinary in terms of really trying to be the person and give compassion to that person from their point of view.

Matthew Sherwood 30:18
And even - I mean, you've even got so - with Caril Fugate, you've also got your recreation actress - actors - for...

Nicola Marsh 30:26
Yeah. For her interrogation.

Matthew Sherwood 30:28
... her as well. Yeah. And the way you film it is great, too, because it's not - we don't, like - because it would have been too tempting to say, well, that doesn't look like her, right. I mean...

Nicola Marsh 30:36
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 30:37
... you know, so it's...

Nicola Marsh 30:39
Well, there's much more footage of her; so, I showed less of her. With the Charlie actor, the match was really good. But, I mean, she was also 14; so, finding an actor who could actually act who wasn't 14 - I'm not going to put a 14 year old in that position to say those words and live those things - and so, it was just a much harder get. But Ivy, the actor who played her, she was just, she was just great. They're all so great. I mean, it's the bounty of living in Los Angeles.

Matthew Sherwood 31:09
Yeah. And - I mean, I think that, I mean, as you pointed out, too, it kind of gets back to this - all the narrative, the Badlands and all the other films that have been made. I mean, as you said, you're not going to put a 14 year old in there. Well often they have made her character much older, haven't they? I mean, she's at least 19 or older, you know, even if she's not literally playing, you know, it certainly appears as an older...

Nicola Marsh 31:35
Yeah. We talked to the screenwriter who wrote the movie Starkweather. And that's the stuff that, like, in the shower, and she's opening the door, and she's coming [...] stuff. And a lot of that was based on sales. Like, they had to cast an actor who was a bit of a name in order to get the money and blah, blah, blah. So, there you are. It's capitalism.

Matthew Sherwood 31:54
Yeah. I mean, what was - so, when you were tackling this, was this your idea? Were you - and what, you know, what was the unique - I guess, did you know from the beginning that unique angle that you were going to be bringing to the story was Caril's story?

Nicola Marsh 32:10
Yes. Because it was based on the book.

Matthew Sherwood 32:13
Based on the.. yeah.

Nicola Marsh 32:14
And so, that was - I mean, that book is very sort of, from the outset, very pro-Caril. And I felt it was really important to first think Caril was guilty before you found her innocent, so that you can experience what the police felt, what Nebraskans felt like, it was very, very easy to see her as guilty. Rather than being like, Aren't these people in the 1950s misogynistic idiots, you know, because they weren't.

Matthew Sherwood 32:47
And you just raised - brought up a good point. I mean, I guess you did go back to Nebraska and did some filming there.

Nicola Marsh 32:54
We did, yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 32:55
Yeah. How was that - I mean, is it still palpable the feeling...

Nicola Marsh 32:59
Yes.

Matthew Sherwood 32:59
Is it.

Nicola Marsh 33:00
There's nobody in Nebraska who doesn't know about this, especially, you know - nobody. They all know about it. And, you know, they still get sort of like tourists coming to see Charlie's grave. And - I mean, you know, there's not a lot of reasons that the national press - any reasons the national press was coming to Lincoln, Nebraska. So, when it happened in 1958, it was astonishing, that, like, the entire of the United States, and some of the world's press corps, was suddenly in Lincoln, Nebraska. And then all that footage got beamed all over the world. And so, they got on the map, as it were, but for the wrong reasons. And I think they smart a bit about that. And I think for any Nebraskan that went through it, it was like 9/11, like, it was like, nobody forgets what it was like those three days and two days when they couldn't find them.

Matthew Sherwood 33:53
Right. And they were under - literally under - lockdown.

Nicola Marsh 33:57
Yeah, like, people were moving their dressers and putting them in front of the door. And everybody had their guns out. Like, nobody had ever dealt with - and also, Charlie's killing people seemingly at random in random places. So, it doesn't feel like you can be like, Oh, well, it won't be me, because.

Matthew Sherwood 34:15
It's an interesting point. I mean, it's not something we - it's not a subject [of] the film, and not even something we need to, I guess, really concern ourselves with, but any idea why he did this?

Nicola Marsh 34:25
I mean, I do think I have some idea. So, he's impotent, right. He's 18, 19. He has a pretty strong learning disability and a stutter. And he's starting to lose his eyesight to what would have been quite catastrophic levels in a year or two.

Matthew Sherwood 34:51
Oh, really? Did he have a condition of some sort?

Nicola Marsh 34:53
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 34:53
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 34:54
And he had a really - two really extreme - I'll just call them concussions. Once as a little child, and then once it's like - I think he was, like, 15. And the second concussion had given him really bad headaches thereon after, for a long period of time. Like, I think into his death.

Matthew Sherwood 35:13
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 35:14
And so, he's like an incredibly sexually frustrated 19 year old with maybe some sort of brain injury and a learning disability. And he's really angry. His life is almost over, and he's 19. And he's like, thrashing around, looking for a lifeline. And that lifeline, the only thing left and available for him is destruction. You know, like, everybody wants to be noticed, even - if good affirmation is not available, we'll go for bad affirmation, because just being ignored is just about the worst thing for a human being.

Matthew Sherwood 35:49
Yeah. Yeah, and you actually you - in fairness, you do touch on that in the first episode as well. I think that - I think, was one of the - do you have a psychologist who even talks about...

Nicola Marsh 36:05
Yeah. I mean, the murder of the women, is so...

Matthew Sherwood 36:08
Oh, yeah. It's horrific.

Nicola Marsh 36:10
It's really grotesque, and really, sexually infused.

Matthew Sherwood 36:15
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 36:16
And I think that tells you something about why he's killing people. And I think a couple of the others may have been sexually infused, but the Ward murders: they were such a powerful, celebrated family, that there was - there really wasn't a lot of information that we could find about those murders, anyway, because I think, out of respect, it really was not disclosed.

Matthew Sherwood 36:42
And - but yeah, with the Wards, you have the granddaughter on camera.

Nicola Marsh 36:47
Liza? I love her. She's fantastic. She's really good. And I think, you know, she'd inherited a lot of trauma from her father. So, for your audience, her father was 14, he was at boarding school, and he comes back home, and both his parents have been murdered in really brutal ways. And he makes the decision to not talk about it and not think about it, and move somewhere else. And interestingly enough, as an adult, he deals in antiquities. And it's such a symbol for like, trying to freeze time and not wanting to let go [of] things, I think, and Liza is like, digging around trying to unearth all the bones much to, I think, probably her father's chagrin or at least to his pain. But I think she's trying to get oxygen on the whole thing. And it's become part of her life's work to do that, to sort of exercise - exorcise - these demons that have really chased her whole family around, you know; like, it's the trauma of that is, especially back then in those days, nobody was like, giving a 14 year old therapy or like, let's talk about it.

Matthew Sherwood 38:02
And what do you - I think, it's - actually hard to believe we're starting to come to the end of our time together, Nicola, but...

Nicola Marsh 38:10
You're great, Matthew. I could talk to you all day.

Matthew Sherwood 38:13
Oh, well, that's very kind of you!

Nicola Marsh 38:15
True!

Matthew Sherwood 38:17
I mean, what do you hope this - well, we could - well, we'll talk a little longer then; flattery will get you everywhere. But what do you hope this series legacy will be?

Nicola Marsh 38:29
I mean, like, for Caril, I think it'd be great if she could get a pardon. I think she's innocent. She has kept her story the whole time, and even if she isn't innocent, which I do think she is, she was 14 at the time, and she was tried as an adult, which is completely unacceptable.

Matthew Sherwood 38:41
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 38:43
And she didn't actually kill anybody. Like, even on the worst case scenario, nobody said, Oh, well, she stabbed people and killed people. I mean, Charlie tries to suggest it, but it's just so obviously, transparently, just bullshit. Nobody even believes him. But I think it'd be nice for her to get a formal pardon, because I think she's tried so hard for so many years to not be the villain. And I think she realizes when she gets out of prison, and she's 30, that she's gonna go down in the Wikipedia page as this horrible murderer. And she's like, but that's not what happened. And also, I'm accused of murdering my family members, people I still miss. And so, she's really tried to clear her name, and I think it'd be nice if more than just a few people, but actually, like some institution, was able to say we believe you. And I think generally, as a series as a whole, I think I'd love it if it could just shed a little bit of light on maybe how people behave in abusive situations. They don't necessarily act in sort of dramatic and sort of physically aggressive ways that - we tend to sort of take things very slowly. And I think that is often confused by both the aggressor and law enforcement as sort of, Oh, you're into it.

Matthew Sherwood 40:17
Right. Or you're at least - yeah, you're an accomplice of - you're complicit in some way.

Nicola Marsh 40:23
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 40:26
No, I think that's - I mean, I guess then she's not - I mean, not to give too much away - but she's not really in a - she's - I mean, that's the other story is this - 'fact, more so than the crimes themselves - I mean, the lengths that she's gone to, and will - has continued to go to, to prove her innocence is - I mean, I'm sure there are others, we know there are others sort of in similar situations who've probably have just gone off and tried to live their lives quietly, somewhere, but she is very adamant, and gone to all kinds of lengths to clear her name.

Nicola Marsh 41:05
I think it - particularly because it was her family members that she stands accused of killing - I think she just couldn't live with that narrative. And then I think also because the story was so famous, it didn't matter where she went [in] America, people like, Oh, you're Caril Fugate, I know who you are, and like, you know, she gets released from prison, she takes a job in a hospital, and like, there are people who won't ride in the elevator with her, and she just couldn't get away from it, and so, she's like, Whoa, if you can't get away from it, then I'm gonna have to fight back. And I think she's not somebody who's seeking fame at all. So, I think it's quite difficult for her to do it.

Matthew Sherwood 41:54
Yet, she's been in the public eye since she was 14. So, that must be such a difficult life she's had to lead; you know, been on national TV back when no one went on national TV. And ever since, you know, she's on, as you say, because the story keeps popping up. She's there, she keeps - you know, it doesn't go away for her.

Nicola Marsh 42:16
Yeah, and I don't think that you can lose your parents in that style and get over it, because I think - so, you know, she runs to the police, and the first thing she says is, Can I see my parents, and, you know, the police sort of fob her off for, like, a couple of days, and finally they're like, Don't you know, girl, they're dead. And that's how she finds out her parents are dead. And nobody can come and visit her in prison because her parents are not around anymore. And the next time she sees her ex-boyfriend, now knowing that he had not only killed her parents, but like, lied about killing her parents is at a trial, where he's trying to put her in prison. And does it successfully, wins. And it's like, it's like somebody, like, making you a nice dinner, and then telling you afterwards, you just ate your pet. You know what I mean? The horror of like, what she'd been through and being his, you know, accomplice to think she was saving her parents because he kept on saying, If you don't do what I say I'm gonna get your parents killed. And then find out that was all a lie. It just didn't - the mindfuck of that. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on your show.

Matthew Sherwood 43:32
Oh - we've said for worse on this show. So, don't worry about it.

Nicola Marsh 43:34
Okay, good. Just bleep it out. But I don't think, and when that happens at 14, I don't think you ever get over that.

Matthew Sherwood 43:43
I think that's a good point. What's next for you in terms of...

Nicola Marsh 43:51
When's your show coming out? Because then I can figure out if I'm allowed to tell you or not.

Matthew Sherwood 43:55
Well, this will probably be released next week. But...

Nicola Marsh 44:00
After Monday?

Matthew Sherwood 44:02
Yes, it would be after Monday.

Nicola Marsh 44:05
Well, so, I think I'm going to - I'm doing a documentary with Demi Lovato about child stardom.

Matthew Sherwood 44:13
Oh, wow.

Nicola Marsh 44:16
Completely different. I mean, I've done a lot of music stuff.

Matthew Sherwood 44:18
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 44:18
But I think - I don't know, I'm really interested in that idea of identity, and how your identity gets formed in your teen years. And what happens if you intersect with capitalism in those years.

Matthew Sherwood 44:31
Interesting. Well, we'll look forward to it. If we haven't scared you off, then we'd love to have you back on.

Nicola Marsh 44:36
No, you've definitely not scared me off. I mean, it will be a year or so; so.

Matthew Sherwood 44:40
We'll put it in our diary and hopefully, we'll - and also, we probably should always have a segment on here that's called "How accurate is your IMDB profile?". But is it true that you are DP on this Bono, The Edge and David Letterman doc that's coming out?

Nicola Marsh 44:57
Yes.

Matthew Sherwood 44:57
I've seen previews for it.

Nicola Marsh 44:58
I just saw those guys last night because we had a screening. Bono was there, and Edge and Letterman in LA. And we showed it to a bunch of Disney people. And Morgan Neville, who's the director, who's, I mean...

Matthew Sherwood 45:11
Right.

Nicola Marsh 45:12
... prolific and very...

Matthew Sherwood 45:14
Well, he was exec. on this, on 12th Victim, right?

Nicola Marsh 45:17
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 45:17
Yeah.

Nicola Marsh 45:18
We've been working together for almost a couple of decades. And he was like, do you want to come to Ireland and film U2 in a concert for 300 people? And I was like, Yeah! Yeah, I do! And it ended up being just a real pleasure. And, you know, I wasn't a big U2 fan, but those guys are really lovely. Like really, really lovely, smart, cool, thoughtful people.

Matthew Sherwood 45:42
And, I mean, the thing that struck me, I don't know why, but I - I was like, And then David Letterman? How does he-? How does this all fit together? But I guess...

Nicola Marsh 45:51
Watch the movie, and then we will talk again.

Matthew Sherwood 45:53
Okay.

Nicola Marsh 45:53
I mean, they're friends, so that's - it's quite sweet, actually. But yeah, I mean.

Matthew Sherwood 45:55
Well, excellent. Well, I think, again, do check that out because it looks - and again, that's black and white, isn't it? Or a lot of it is?

Nicola Marsh 46:08
No, the U2 thing is mostly color, but a lot of U2's work is in black and white, but what we show is in color.

Matthew Sherwood 46:15
Okay. All right. Well, thank you again for coming on. It's a pleasure meeting you Nicola. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Nicola Marsh, the director of the Showtime docu-series, The 12th Victim. All four episodes are available now, I've been told. So, do check it out, if you have access to Showtime. I won't say how you should or should not have access, but give it a try. And thanks again, Nicola. Good luck with everything, and with your next project, which sounds really interesting. And yeah, thanks again.

Matthew Sherwood 46:53
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 47:35
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