Waco: The Tragedy that Still Haunts America
February, 1993. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) has received word that the Branch Davidians, a cult based near Waco, Texas, is stockpiling illegal weapons at their compound. The ATF attempts to storm the base but the cultists know they are coming and force them to retreat. A 51-day siege follows, and it only ends when the compound is consumed by fire. 82 are killed, including 28 children.
In this episode of Factual America, Matthew Sherwood meets Tiller Russell, director and producer of Waco: American Apocalypse, a new Netflix docu-series that features interviews with law enforcement officers and Branch Davidian survivors, as well as previously unseen footage from the siege.
Tiller describes what happened at Waco as an ‘iconic American tragedy’ as it brought together two foundational aspects of American life – God and guns. The fate of so many children at the compound also makes it a very contemporary tragedy. Unsurprisingly, therefore, Tiller calls Waco ‘a ghost story’ that has ‘haunted America’.
The impact of the Waco siege on America and the world was undoubtedly facilitated by the rise of the 24/7 news cycle which, as Matthew notes, happened at around the same time. Despite, or perhaps because of this, Tiller explains that he is ‘a big believer in the passage of time... being a necessity to retell these stories in a way that adds depth and nuance to them.’ Especially if we consume a lot of news, we need time, sometimes a lot of it, to process what has happened. If we are able to do so, we may discover the story at the heart of Waco: American Apocalypse, the one that, as Tiller says, shows it is about ‘the human experience... what it means to be alive and to die and to watch people that you love, die’.
“Nothing like this had ever happened before. So, the FBI had no idea what they were doing. They were in this uncharted territory; the ATF, the people inside the compound, the news media had never seen anything like this.” – Tiller Russell
Time Stamps
02:24 - Matthew Sherwood introduces this week’s guest, Tiller Russell, and his docu-series, Waco: American Apocalypse
04:15 - Tiller explains what Waco: American Apocalypse is about
06:32 - How the 24/7 news cycle turned the Waco siege into a global news story
11:05 – How the passage of time helps people tell their stories
16:17 – Tiller on his reluctance to take on Waco: American Apocalypse and what made him change his mind
20:44 – Tiller’s approach to interviewing Branch Davidian survivors
22:30 – What the law enforcement officials brought to their interviews
25:07 – The ‘little human moments’ at the heart of Waco: American Apocalypse
26:21 – How Tiller came into possession of the previously unseen FBI footage of the Waco siege
29:23 – The FBI: not a monolithic organization but a very divergent one
31:50 – Origins of the current mistrust of the Federal Government
33:10 – Tiller on his belief that events can leave their mark on the place and culture where they occur
34:14 – Discussing what makes Waco a ‘uniquely American’ event
35:03 – Tiller discusses what he hopes Waco: American Apocalypse’s legacy will be
37:06 – Tiller on his reaction when Netflix offered him a ‘wild swerve’
38:41 – What the most successful documentaries have in common
Resources:
Waco: American Apocalypse
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Tiller Russell:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 129: Waco: The Tragedy that Still Haunts America
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:24)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. In February 1993, outside of Waco, Texas, cult leader David Koresh faced off against the US Federal Government in a bloody 51 day siege. The conflict began with the biggest gunfight on American soil since the Civil War, and ended with a fiery inferno captured live on national television. In between, it riveted TV viewers across the globe, becoming the biggest news story in the world. The docu-series features exclusive access to recently unearthed videotapes filmed inside the FBI crisis negotiation unit, as well as raw news footage never before released to the American public. Join us as we talk with the series' acclaimed director and producer, Tiller Russell, about finding the human stories amidst this uniquely American tragedy. Stay tuned. Tiller Russell, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Tiller Russell 01:04
They are great. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you taking the time and interest.
Matthew Sherwood 01:08
Yeah, well, no, it's our pleasure. Thanks again. To remind our listeners we're talking with Tiller Russell, the producer and director of Waco: American Apocalypse, an original Netflix docu-series. It's currently streaming. So, yeah, welcome, again to Factual America. Congratulations. I see it's doing quite well; has been doing quite well on Netflix. It's always on one of the Most Watched lists, at least when I'm looking at it here in the UK. So, I mean, why don't you get us started. What is Waco: American Apocalypse all about?
Tiller Russell 01:45 (4:15)
Well, I think that Waco is this kind of iconic American tragedy that took place in Waco, Texas in 1993, where the - a group called the Branch Davidians, which was this sect, sort of splinter group from the Seventh Day Adventist, ended up you know, holing up, essentially, in this compound. The Federal Government, the ATF, came in; tried to kind of kick down the doors - raid it because they were amassing this arsenal, this stockpile of weapons. And what ended up happening was it sort of - what jumped off was the largest gunfight on American soil since the Civil War. And then what followed was a 51 day siege in which the Branch Davidians holed up inside, and the FBI came in, attempted to negotiate the release of various hostages. And then it ends in this tragic fire where, you know, countless people - eighty something people - end up, you know, burning to their deaths in the end, and I think it's this - it's the story that has kind of haunted - in some ways, it's a ghost story. I think it's kind of haunted America, and the world in a fundamental sense, and so we went back in to kind of tackle this, and see if we could approach it with a more humanist lens, if that makes sense.
Matthew Sherwood 03:02
No, I think that does. I mean, I think you raise a - that's an excellent synopsis. I have seen the three episodes, and really, really - enjoyed is a hard way of - is a difficult way of putting it, but in a sense, I did enjoy it, but it is a different - it is an American tragedy. And I think when I talk to people about this, and as someone who was born and raised in Texas, actually, and I've got some indirect connections to that part, literally, that part of the world: my mom grew up just about 15 miles away from where that all happened. But it's - you know, at the time, I don't know about for you, but it's one of these things where we kind of like, some of us - I mean, maybe put in the context how - this just absolutely, I mean, maybe a lot of people won't realize this of a certain age, this really gripped a nation. At the time.
Tiller Russell 03:51
It was the biggest story in the world. And it was the biggest story in the world for 51 days, and I too grew up in Texas, right. I grew up in Dallas, not far away from there.
Matthew Sherwood 04:01
Okay.
Tiller Russell 04:02 (6:32)
And so, I too have those, you know, those roots that kind of like, tie back to this story in some sense or another. And what happened was the 24 hour news cycle jumped on this story. (A) It happened live on television, right. So, literally the gunfight was captured by this reporter - you know, local small town reporter who stumbled into the story of a lifetime, and actually was caught in the middle of this massive, you know, ATF raid and gunfight. And the footage from that was broadcast and sort of beamed almost instantaneously around the world. And it went from being this very parochial local story to this object of fascination for the media and for the world. And because it failed to resolve quickly - I mean, I think that's one of the things that continued to captivate people. Normally, when you have a barricade situation or a stand-off situation, it's this very intense ticking clock, and there's a resolution. Either people come out or people get shot up and die. And - but it gets resolved quickly. And this, like, grinded into this extended and very dramatic stand-off that just continued and continued and continued, and then had this real-time ending where the world was just watching stunned to think that there were, you know, all of these children. And then I think it's the children specifically that haunt us as a culture that are, you know, burning to death inside this compound while there are tanks arrayed outside of it. And there are the news cameras, you know, broadcasting it in real time. And so, it was this kind of, you know, slow motion car crash slash white knuckle thriller happening.
Matthew Sherwood 05:52
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and as you say, early days of 24/7 news coverage. And, I don't know about you, but I remember exactly where I was. TV seemed to be ubiquitous. And I was in school and, you know, looked over and they were actually showing the actual, you know, that morning of the 19th of April, they just - and you just kind of - you didn't know what to make of it. You just, you know, it was these - I mean, and your documentary does such an amazing job of - I'd forgotten; I mean, they've got Abrams tanks, you know, parked out front of this compound.
Tiller Russell 06:29
It is this astonishing visual, when you look back on it, you know, you don't see, you know, literally Abrams tanks and Bradley Fighting Vehicles arrayed around, you know, civilians, and just, you know, this cow field in the middle of Texas. And so, there was something so visually, kind of stunning and arresting, and also jarring. And then at the same time, you know, when that story was happening in real time, there was no window into the lives of the people in the compound, right. The cameras were always outside, and we were looking at it and looking at it from a distance. So, there wasn't a level of kind of, you know, intimacy. And I think that's what we tried to achieve with the series is like, Okay, how do we now kind of revisit this, but bring it to life, and we show the very complicated, complex inner lives of all the people whose stories intersected at Waco in this crazy tragedy?
Matthew Sherwood 07:33
Yeah. I mean, I think that's a very, very fair and very good point. Because, I mean, I hate to say it, at the time, it's kind of like, well, there - yeah, there's these crazy people outside Waco. And this happened, and, yeah, we hear there's children involved and they're dangerous. So, yeah, okay. It's fine. Federal Government needs to go in all barrels blazing and whatever. And then it's, you talk about it now 30 years on and people are like, can you believe that actually happened? You know, I mean, believe me there's plenty of people at fault and we, you know, you're - and it's discussed in your doc about David Koresh and what was maybe or maybe not going on in there. But still, it's something that I think it's only with the passage of time that we've just realized how - I don't know, kind of, immune or inured we were to it at the time, and how it's just, you know - and now it's still gripping us - as you say, it's, like, this ghost story that haunts the US. And it's still with us today.
Tiller Russell 08:35 (11:05)
It's - you know, I'm a big believer in the passage of time for kind of being a necessity to retell these stories in a way that adds depth and nuance to them. There's something about when something is happening in real time, you're getting a surface level version of the events, right, and everybody is struggling to make sense of it. And I think, you know, one of the things that so - that we forget about Waco is nothing like this had ever happened before. So, the FBI had no idea what they were doing. They were in this uncharted territory; the ATF, the people inside the compound, the news media had never seen anything like this. So, everybody was just grappling, trying to make sense of it, in this rapidly escalating, very volatile, dangerous situation. And so, I think there is kind of a gift to history and some distance from the actual events, because (A) it gives people an opportunity to emotionally, intellectually, perhaps spiritually, process the events that they lived through, and to have some measure of reflection upon what those were, and to have the kind of the power of hindsight to revisit it, and yet at the same time for all of these people, like, it's the worst, most dramatic, most horrifying days of their lives. So, it's seared into their memories in a way that's unforgettable. So, as a filmmaker, when you enter into something like this, you want it to feel like a real time, you know, white knuckle thriller that's unfolding before your very eyes. But you also want to layer in the distance that you get, and the perspective that you get, with some separation in time. And so, I'm a big believer in the necessity of that to really get at the heart and the humanity of stories like this one.
Matthew Sherwood 10:38
We had a filmmaker on once, he said it's about 20 years is what you need for a lot of these sorts of stories. But in some ways, I think 30 seems probably better in this case. I don't know.
Tiller Russell 10:49
I think it depends on the story. But there is a, you know, there's a benchmark that - I mean, in previous films and series that I've done, sometimes it's, you know, they're crime stories, so, you're waiting for the statute of limitations to expire so that people can really tell the contours of what it is. But I think whether it's ten years, whether it's twenty years, whether it's thirty years, you need enough distance that there is some reflection on it, and yet, it can't be so much time that the memories are dissipating and no longer as vivid as they once were. So, it's finding that sweet spot. And it's also - I'm kind of a believer in that these stories get told when they're supposed to be told. You can't force things to happen. You kind of - there's a receptivity that's required, where the story has to want to be told, and that people have to want to come forward and they have to entrust you with these precious moments and memories, and so, things kind of - events and the retellings of them have their own, I think, organic rhythm to them.
Matthew Sherwood 11:55
Okay. I think we're going to actually give our audience a very early and quick break here, but we'll be right back with Tiller Russell, the producer and director of the Netflix docu-series, Waco: American Apocalypse.
Factual America Midroll 12:13
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Matthew Sherwood 12:32
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Tiller Russell, the producer and director of the Netflix docu-series, Waco: American Apocalypse. You were talking about - we were talking about the passage of time and how that's necessary for perspective, and, you know, to tell - well, whatever passage of time is needed is what is required to tell the story, basically. Now, I mean, when you've - you've already talked about sort of the unique perspective you're trying to bring to this. I mean, there are already four, or at least four previous doc features, right, on this. I mean, what is it - how do you - what - this new ground you're covering, how did you go about that, because you obviously didn't want to rehash what others had done. And you do have the benefit of time. So, I mean, I think one thing that strucks me - has struck me is the interviews with the former members. And, I mean, how was that? That's some incredible, poignant film there that you've got with these people who are - who have survived. You know, they weren't one of the 82 that passed away, and are able to now tell their story.
Tiller Russell 13:47 (16:17)
Well, it - I actually was very cautious, and had a lot of trepidation about approaching the story for exactly the reason that you said, which is, this is a story that has been told and retold, you know, numerous times, it was told in the front pages of the paper, it was told live on television as it's breaking, and then it was, you know, retold in sort of subsequent, you know, long form versions of it, books, whatever else. And so, I was very - I had a great - it gave me a great pause early on as to whether or not to, you know, whether or not to tackle this and to tackle something that was so iconic, I suppose, in a way. And what ended up happening; I think there were sort of two fundamental elements that drew me in. One was there was this new footage which had been uncovered, which was, you know, inside the FBI's hostage negotiation room, right. And that - the world had never seen it, and they'd never seen the mechanics of it. And so, that drew me more deeply into the story. And I thought, Okay, wow, this is something that I've never seen that the world has never seen, and it is a new window into the story, but to the point that you were raising is what I also found was all of these people who lived through this story and lived to tell the tale, were not who I expected them to be. And I feel like this story has been told in a very oftentimes politicized or weaponized way, where it's like, who's - who screwed this up, and then a kind of a blame game and finger pointing. And, of course, there's countless failures, like, unquestionably, but what I was struck by was the humanity of the people and the people on all sides of it. So, with the Branch Davidians, it was, you know, I met the woman, Heather Jones, who was nine years old at the time that this - that these events unfolded. And I remember asking her in that interview, how much do you remember? And she said, I remember everything. It's like a film is playing in my mind. And that was the first interview question that I asked. And I could see how - I could see the wheels turning, I could almost feel the, you know, the film reel in her mind. And I thought, because you don't know, like, you're a kid, right? Have you repressed this? Have you sort of pushed it away? Have you've gone running from this, or is it like, burned in there and for her, it was clearly burned in there. And so, I found that scary and fascinating and incredibly moving. And then, same thing with some of the other folks whether it's, you know, David Thibodeau who was Koresh's rock and roll drummer, right, and sort of meets him at the Sunset Strip in LA and at Guitar Center, and wasn't looking for God, wasn't looking for, you know, history, he was just looking to play in a rock and roll band, and then kind of ended up in this, you know - drawn into the forcefield of this story and Koresh's magnetism; or Kathy Schroeder, you know, the woman who was purported to be one of David Koresh's mighty men, and who ends up you know, having to decide whether to come out to be with her kids, and to release her kids along the way. And whoever they were, and whatever their stories were that led them to it, I actually found them all oddly brave, to be willing to come forward and share their authentic experiences about the paths that had led them to it, and the choices that they made, and the impact it had had on their lives. And so, I found that very moving and fascinating.
Matthew Sherwood 17:38
I think, yeah, there was someone like - I mean, I agree, I think someone like Kathy, I mean, there's the - I guess the impression I had was, there the ways - there way they're supposed to supposedly answer questions, and then there's the way they authentically answer the question. So, someone like her, she comes across as maybe even, maybe is still a believer? I mean, and how do they - I mean, how does someone like her reconcile what happens with what her beliefs may be? With regards to being part of this, you know, the Branch Davidians?
Tiller Russell 18:14 (20:44)
Well, I think, you know, how I always approached these, you know, any interview, but particularly something that is as sensitive and volatile as this is, hey, I'm genuinely curious what it's like to live through something of this level of intensity. And what the hell was it really like? What's running through your mind? What's running through your heart? Like, how do you - what are the steps that lead you there? What are, you know, what's - what are the hopes and fears? And I think, when people, I hope, anyway, that when people understand there is a genuine curiosity and fascination and a lack of judgment on my part, that it's - hopefully it provides like a vessel and a window to like, explain the human experience, because to me, that's where the juice of it is, right. Like, it's a story about God and guns and their impact on kids, you know, and those are all the things that suck you in to this story as being provocative and controversial and explosive, but at the end of the day, hopefully what keeps you there is it's about the human experience, it's about what it means to be alive and to die and to watch people that you love, die and to hopefully map the kind of emotional complexity of that.
Matthew Sherwood 19:41
And speaking of which, it's not just the members of the Branch Davidians. You've got the ATF agents, and the sniper from the hostage rescue teams that's talking, which is also incredible cinema as well, especially - what's the fella's name from ATF? Buford? I mean, he---
Tiller Russell 20:01 (22:30)
Yeah. Bill Buford. And to return to what you were saying before, which is all of these people brought this profound authenticity to it, and also vulnerability, to it; you know, it's not often - you don't expect to see somebody from the ATF, you know, crying about watching, you know, loved ones, or fellow colleagues getting, you know, shot in front of them, but the trauma was so, you know, just beneath the surface with, you know, Jim Cavanaugh, for example, who was the ATF, you know, one of the commanding officers there, or Bill Buford, who's this, you know, one of these kind of door kicking ATF guys, and, you know, this is a guy that's seen combat; you know, Vietnam veteran, been through the, you know, the most intense raw combat experiences that you can possibly have as a human being and survived. And yet, you know, for him, Waco was vividly alive. You know, to this day, those memories and the questions and watching his, you know, young protege, you know, get shot down so that he could survive. It burns so brightly for these people, that whoever they were, or whether it's Chris Whitcomb from, you know, hostage rescue - FBI's hostage rescue team, this guy was not who I expected him to be. You know, you think sniper, okay, this guy's gonna be ass-kicker, you know, badass, and, you know, and whatever. And instead, and he is all those things, unquestionably, but he was also somebody that was writing poetry throughout the entire experience, and deeply engaging with David Koresh's theology to see if there was something real there or not. And so, it - because the people were not who I expected to meet, and my expect - like, I was so shocked, and periodically made uncomfortable or moved by their stories I wanted, you know, hopefully to transmit that to the audience. To remind them that we're all human beings, you know, and like, whoever you are, whatever your sort of politics and religious beliefs and upbringing are, is: we're all just people trying to get through the day and to do our best.
Matthew Sherwood 22:19
I mean, I thought that was incredible with Bill Buford. I mean, just the picture of him saying that they, going in, they're all holding hands, right, they're just squeezing each other's hands to know, to just let each other know, that they're there, you just don't think of that kind of stuff with these guys, as you say, these door-kicking ATF agents, you know.
Tiller Russell 22:37 (25:07)
It's those - I'm glad that you brought that up, because it's those little human moments that remind you like, man, we're all scared. And we're all, you know, confused. And, you know, those hand squeezes going back through as they're rolling up into, you know, what it's going to be or, you know, that also reminds me of the memory that the reporter, you know, John McLemore shares of seeing one of the ATF guys afterwards, whose wedding ring has, you know, about to come off his finger, and it's these little details that are the texture of the humanity of these folks that aren't - they're not about plot. It's not about narrative. It's about character and humanity. And so, that, to me, is the real stuff and texture of it, that you have to really fight to protect in the edit, to acknowledge the humanity of these folks.
Matthew Sherwood 23:32
And you were mentioning earlier, the two things that drove this, and one of the - and it was something I did want to discuss with you, which was this never before seen footage that you had from the FBI. I mean, how do you learn about that footage? Or how do you uncover that? And how do you get access to stuff like that?
Tiller Russell 23:51 (26:21)
You know, it's interesting. At this point, in a weird way, many of these stories find me as opposed to me finding the stories. And in this case, what had happened was, the FBI's assumption when they rolled in after the gunfight to take over for the ATF, their assumption was, okay, we're gonna get everybody out in 24 hours, it'll all be said and done. Everybody goes home heroes, and we'll use this as a teaching tool, you know, back at Quantico to instruct other people that are coming up how to navigate a situation like this. So, there's a video camera that's circulating as they're putting together the hostage negotiation room, and as they're making the phone calls, and passing each other post it notes and documenting that process. And then what happens, happens, which is it goes horribly awry, completely out of everybody's control, and someone makes the decision, let's put this in a box, put it in the top of the closet and pretend like, it doesn't exist for 30 years, and then one day, you know, cut to 30 years later, somebody takes down that box and you know, pulls out these tapes. And is like, holy shit. This is like, the world has never seen this, you know, what is this? And so, in that case, it was my producers who had gotten a hold of this material, and they called me about it, and, like I said, I was initially like, No, I don't want to do Waco. I feel like it's been done. This is kind of dangerous territory to be treading on. But that was a window into something new, and the mechanics of hostage negotiation, which we have all of our Hollywood notions of what that is, right? It's Sam Jackson on the phone, one dude, you know, talking him out. And instead, it's not, it's this team of people that are, like, on the one hand, trying to manipulate folks out, on the other hand, very well intentioned, they're trying to save lives. But there is this subterfuge that's involved in it. And so, those complex dynamics really felt fascinating to me.
Matthew Sherwood 25:35
And I think in other ways, it provides an interesting insight, and I was talking to someone earlier about this. And I know you do - you've done some - you've done true crime. And I'm not saying anything about the lens you were seeing things through, but how - law enforcement seldom comes off looking very good in a lot of these things, these series, and what is it? I mean - or is it the fog of war, or what is going on, because you had this sit - in this case, there seemed to be two very different views of how to handle this, and they were going their own way, and didn't really seem to be anyone control - calling the shots, you know, but I'll let you say, say more on that.
Tiller Russell 26:07 (29:23)
Well, I think that we tend to - you know, if you're not in that world, if you're not from, you know, a member of law enforcement, or the military, or whatever it may be, we tend to think of these things, as civilians, as these like, monolithic institutions that are one single thing. And really what it is, is it's just a collection of people - FBI agents - and every one of them are, you know, is an atom in the molecule that is the FBI, right. And so, (A) there's the humanity and individuality of each person. And then (B), there are these conflicting currents within the FBI, right; you've got the hostage rescue team, and their mandate is, kill the bad guys, get the good guys, and get them out and rescue them. And it's a very task-oriented, kind of militaristic outlook, for which, when that's necessary, it's the last backstop; like, those are the people you want to go out when that happens. And then on the other hand, you've got this massive kind of chasm, at the time between the hostage rescue team, and the negotiators who believe that it could take 100 years, that's fine, and if we're on the phone for 100 years negotiating as long as everybody comes out peacefully, that's the right path. And so, there's these divergent tactics and methodologies, and I don't even think you can fault the bosses in a sense, because you've got, you know, these different factions and different people whispering in your ear, let's do this. You've got the massive scrutiny of like, the media there, you've got a ticking clock where money is going out the door every day, and you are having to make the best decisions that you can in impossible circumstances.
Matthew Sherwood 28:47
And you've got the Attorney General asking you every day what's happening, and she's being asked by the President, why is this still ongoing? And I can only imagine---
Tiller Russell 28:57
And you've got this disconnect from the people that are on the ground. Like, it's one thing to be staring at David Koresh through a sniper rifle, like, okay, I can take the shot. And it's another thing to be in the White House being like, what in the hell is going on in Waco? Like, and what's the plan, you know; so, that the kind of - the disconnect between the field and command, and the chain of command between them.
Matthew Sherwood 29:20 (31:50)
Yeah. And then, I mean, you had Ruby Ridge the year before, I think, and stuff like that, but it just - those early nine - early to mid 90s, it kind of - a lot of this - you forget, but a lot of these things were kicking off at the time.
Tiller Russell 29:34
Well, and then you have Waco- I mean, you have Oklahoma City two years later, right. So, like Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City, that is, you know, there is a continuity to those stories, continuity in terms of personnel, continuity in terms of like, the politics and the decision making behind them, and the legacy of them, and I think that in a way, much of the kind of discord in society now or the distrust of the Federal Government or whatever all these things are that are roiling the culture, a lot of that stuff, this is ground zero, this is the moment where those chasms in the culture begin to open up.
Matthew Sherwood 30:16
Yeah. And what makes - I mean, I - on a side note, I once [in] like, 97, I was, as I said, I got some Texas roots, I was visiting my aunt and uncle and they made a point of taking my brother and I by the compound, where, you know, afterwards, and then within 24 hours, I was in Oklahoma City in front of the FBI building, I mean, it was just quite incredible.
Tiller Russell 30:39 (33:10)
And there is something in the ground in those sites; like, I'm a believer in something staying behind in the kind of, you know, if not the DNA, then at least in the DNA of the culture in those places. They become, you know, resonant, haunted, you know, or hallowed, depending upon your politics, like, spaces, right, of, okay, this is where it happened. And I remember having that same experience when I was making Night Stalker, where I went through and I mapped all of the places and people who Richard Ramirez had attacked and drove through those locales at night, and it was very, it was very haunting to be, you know, at two in the morning, recognizing this is the place where this murder happened or that murder happened.
Matthew Sherwood 31:08
And it's called American Apocalypse is the sub, sort of, subtitle. What makes it - Waco - uniquely American, you think?
Tiller Russell 31:44 (34:14)
Well, I think that, you know, it goes back to that notion of its God, its guns, it's America, its children at the center of it. There are these fundamental issues, right, which is the right to worship the way you want, the constitutional right to bear arms, which are at the kind of boiling center of this. Without those two elements, this conflict doesn't exist. And those are, you know, foundational issues to America, right. They were there when this country began, they'll be here when, you know, when it ends. But this is a moment where you see those intersecting spokes come together in a really volatile powder keg of a situation.
Matthew Sherwood 32:27
And what do you hope the series' legacy is, when it's all said and done?
Tiller Russell 32:33 (35:03)
Well, increasingly, my hope is to tell every story with kind of a deeply humanist lens, which is to remind us, that we are just people and what I found - and this may sound odd in light of the series - but like, my experience was all these people, whoever they were, were actually kind of trying to do their best to get through each day. And I was surprised to feel that way. And so, I hope that we can revisit this story, and remember, this isn't a story of a bunch of freaks or outliers. It's a story of human beings and there but for the grace of God, go I.
Matthew Sherwood 33:20
I think that's a very good way of putting it, and normally, I would say, let's end there, but I do have a few more questions I want to ask you. I mean, mainly, what's next for you. Is it - I mean, a logical step would be do something on Oklahoma City, but maybe, maybe, I don't know, what are your plans?
Tiller Russell 33:38
Well, I'm circling a bunch of different projects right now and I'm, you know, have a wonderful relationship with Netflix and will be doing a couple of more things for them, which I'm very grateful to kind of have a home and have a place and a platform to do it. And I think I'll probably do a wild swerve; something in a very different key. And I can't quite tell you the details of it, but I think it will be a radical departure, and kind of a refreshingly radical departure, and then we'll see what happens next. And then of course, we've got another series which is launching that I executive produced. American Manhunt: The Boston Marathon Bombing, which drops next week.
Matthew Sherwood 34:25
I think we'll be having some of them on, actually...
Tiller Russell 34:28
Great. Fantastic.
Matthew Sherwood 34:29 (37:06)
...in the next week or two, so, yeah, so I'll tell them you say hello, but, I mean, back to this thing is - so, how's Netflix with it? You going to take this - a bit of a detour from what you've been doing; you know, I'm not asking you to bite the hand that feeds you or anything, but, you know - do you get that sort of creative license when you're working with Netflix?
Tiller Russell 34:52
I think there's always a push and pull, right, which is like, okay, do, you know, do what you're known for. Do what you're, you know, what you've sort of had success in, previously. And yet, at the same time, you know, oddly, it oftentimes ends up like, you know, in this case, it was Netflix like, How about like a wild swerve, and I was like, wild swerve? That sounds super interesting! And because I think there is this tendency to, you know, I like these dramatic crime stories because there are life and death stakes in them and, you know, whether you're a cop or a criminal, or whatever it may be, every time you step out the door, you could die. And so, there's drama in that, and I think I'll always come back to them. But there's also, I guess, it goes back to the kind of, you know, that humanist approach that I'm increasingly having to these stories, which is, okay, what's it like to be caught in history, because no matter how big a story is, or how iconic it is, it's still somebody that's putting their pants on and taking their socks off, you know, just like you. And so, getting down and drilling down to that, it almost doesn't matter what the story is, when you can get at the humanity of it.
Matthew Sherwood 36:11 (38:41)
And when it's all said and done, the most successful of these docs and series, they're always, I mean, for the most part, they're all character lead, aren't they?
Tiller Russell 36:20
Well, that's something that I think, you know, it's easy to forget, right. It's the subject matter that brings you in, okay, this is provocative, it's cult, it's, you know, violence, it's action. And yet at the end of the day, what we connect to as human beings is character, is other people, and in the vice like grip of incredibly dramatic situations. And how do people behave when pushed to the extremes. And so, character is always actually the most important thing to me. Character and emotion. And plot is actually very secondary, because the plot's the engine that gets you going, but what keeps you there, what haunts your consciousness, what sticks in your soul is the people. And so, that's always the heart and soul of it to me.
Matthew Sherwood 37:12
Okay. I think we'll leave it there. I think that's a great way to end that. Tiller, it's been a pleasure to have you on. Reminding our listeners and viewers that we've been talking with Tiller Russell, the producer and director of the Netflix docu-series, Waco: American Apocalypse. Great to have you on, and love to have you on after you've done that big swerve in your new project and to discuss that as well.
Tiller Russell 37:37
Invite me back, and I'll be there. Thank you so much for taking the time and interest. I really appreciate it. And thank you for the really thoughtful, nuanced interview questions. It was great.
Matthew Sherwood 37:46
Well, well, thank you for making the film. I really, really did appreciate it. And, you know, again, would be great to have you on again, sometime. So, thanks again. And we'll hopefully talk soon.
Tiller Russell 37:58
Love to do it. Thank you so much.
Matthew Sherwood 38:00
All right, take care. See you.
Tiller Russell 38:01
Bye bye.
Matthew Sherwood 38:01
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 38:46
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