Where the Truth Lies – Investigating MH370: The Plane That Disappeared

The disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 represents one of the greatest mysteries in modern aviation history. 

On March 8th 2014 the plane left Kuala Lumpur on a scheduled flight to Beijing. Forty minutes later, the captain and Kuala Lumpur Air Traffic Control bade each other good night. That was the last communication between MH370 and the outside world. Less than two hours later, having been tracked by military radar, the aeroplane disappeared from sight somewhere over the Andaman Sea.

In MH370: The Plane That Disappeared, a three-part Netflix docu-series, director Louise Malkinson, tells the story of how the plane vanished, and the nine-year aftermath. Louise and her producer, Harry Hewland, join Matthew Sherwood to discuss their new documentary.

At the heart of the MH370 story are the families of the 239 passengers and crew who were on the plane, as well as those who, over the last decade, have sought to find out what happened. MH370: The Plane That Disappeared puts both groups front and centre as it explores what Harry calls, ‘the human story of the impact of MH370 and what this kind of mystery can do to people.’

In order to tell their story as authentically as possible, Louise and Harry were determined not to lead the viewer to any particular conclusion. When they present the various theories regarding MH370’s fate, they provide argument and counter-argument.

The question of what happened to flight MH370 is yet to be solved. The docu-series is, therefore, a story without an end. It is also, however, the story of a ‘strong community’: the next-of-kin who, as Louise tells Matthew, still ‘come together, every year around the anniversary’ to remember their loved ones, and who are still intent on finding the truth about what happened on that dreadful day in 2014.

“I spoke to people in China, we spoke to people in Malaysia, we spoke to people in France... everybody's the same: we all need closure. We all need it. We need to be able to say goodbye, and the fact that they haven't been able to do that...[it’s] an unimaginable torture that they've had to go through, through all this time.” – Louise Malkinson

Time Stamps

00:00 – Trailer for MH370: The Plane That Disappeared
01:55 – Matthew Sherwood introduces today’s guests, Louise Malkinson and Harry Hewland
05:02 – Louise Malkinson explains what MH370: The Plane That Disappeared is about
05:39 – Discussing the loss of MH370 as one of the biggest aviation mysteries of all time
08:24 – What makes MH370: The Plane That Disappeared different to other docs about the same subject
10:12 – Louise on whether she knew where making MH370 would take her
11:45 – MH370: The Plane That Disappeared’s story structure
13:32 – Harry Hewland discusses his and Louise Malkinson’s determination to remain objective in regards what happened to MH370
15:40 – The families of those lost on MH370’s need for closure
19:12 – How well meaning people can disappear down rabbit holes
21:33 – How Louise and Harry became involved in MH370: The Plane That Disappeared
26:17 – Discussing what effect, if any, working from London has on making documentaries
28:49 – What next for Louise and Harry
29:59 – Exploring the True Crime genre: how big it has become and why it is so popular
32:45 – Matthew on what he thinks happened to flight MH370
37:02 – Harry on how the lack of knowledge was a source of frustration for himself and Louise in making the film

Resources:

MH370: The Plane That Disappeared
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Louise Malkinson:

IMDb

Connect with Harry Hewland:

IMDb
LinkedIn

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 127: Where the Truth Lies – Investigating MH370: The Plane That Disappeared

Speaker 1 00:16
Planes go up, planes go down. What planes don't do is just vanish off the face of the Earth.

Speaker 2 00:27
We have breaking news: Malaysia Airlines confirms that it has lost contact with a plane carrying 227 passengers.

Speaker 3 00:33
It seems to have vanished into thin air.

Speaker 4 00:35
What do we tell the family members? What do you tell the media?

Speaker 5 00:38
My daughter asked me, 'where is papa?'. It's just so unimaginable.

Speaker 6 00:43
I felt completely shattered. I lived in denial about the plane having some sort of crash.

Speaker 7 00:47
[In an instant time stops. Is this a nightmare? Please wake me up.]

Speaker 8 00:54
What happens next is like a rip in the fabric of reality.

Speaker 9 00:58
Theories about the missing plane are going viral.

Speaker 10 01:00
It's possible it was hijacked. We don't know.

Speaker 11 01:03
This very mysterious and very suspicious cargo.

Speaker 12 01:06
The pilot's home flight simulator was removed by police.

Speaker 13 01:09
I have the real evidence. It's there, and you can't deny that.

Speaker 14 01:13
Never in history have 239 people been declared dead on the basis of mathematics alone.

Speaker 15 01:20
Some debris has been found.

Speaker 16 01:23
Who planted that? Who brought the piece there?

Speaker 17 01:25
[They're taking us for fools. They're lying to us.]

Speaker 18 01:28
They are lying from the beginning. They are lying to the whole world.

Speaker 19 01:33
MH370 is not just an unsolved mass murder; it's potentially an act of war.

Speaker 20 01:38
How is it possible for an airline to disappear out of thin air?

Speaker 21 01:42
Someone knows the answer: the question is who?

Matthew Sherwood 01:55
That was the trailer for the new Netflix docu-series, MH370: The Plane That Disappeared, and this is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Malaysian Airlines flight 370 was supposed to be a routine trip. But it was anything but routine, as the commercial airliner disappeared without a trace over the Indian Ocean. Or was it the South China Sea? Or Kazakhstan? Seemingly no one knows. The plane's disappearance made headlines, sparked riots, plunged the passengers' next-of-kin into a never ending nightmare, and generated a global search for answers that never came. Join us as we talk with Louise Malkinson and Harry Hewland, the filmmakers behind MH370: The Plane That Disappeared, about this story full of conspiracies and rabbit holes, shadowy figures, and official silence. As Louise and Harry put it, it's an opportunity to keep alive the memory of those who were lost in one of the great unsolved mysteries of our time. And to keep pushing for answers. Stay tuned. Louise and Harry, welcome to Factual America; how are things with you? Louise?

Louise Malkinson 03:14
Good, thanks. Really good to be here.

Matthew Sherwood 03:16
Yes, it's great to have you. And Harry?

Harry Hewland 03:18
I'm well, thank you. Yeah, I'm a little cold. Yeah, I'm in my office. I actually have a hot water bottle, Matthew, right here, keeping me warm because the heating is not working in my office.

Matthew Sherwood 03:30
You see, you see my - you're a man after my wife's heart. She doesn't go anywhere around the house without a hot water bottle. So, we go through quite a few of those in any given year. Well, we're not here to talk about hot water bottles, at least not yet. We can go back to that topic. But we're here to talk about MH370: The Plane That Disappeared. It's a Netflix docu-series, releasing on March 8, which is an important date in this, as we will be discussing quite shortly. So, welcome again to Factual America, and congratulations for getting this to Netflix, and you must be very excited about the upcoming release, and I'm sure you're doing a lot of these, the dog and pony show and all that. So, thanks again for making time for us. I guess before asking the, you know, starting the conversation - again, reminder, we're talking about MH370: The plane That Disappeared - maybe a little spoiler alert: there's a lot of twists and turns in this tale, and you guys go down some rabbit holes - and so, releases on March 8, which is probably about the time this is going to release, so, if you're listening to this, you may not have had a chance to see the series yet. So, you might want to go watch it first and then come back. But with that in mind, Louise, maybe you can start us off and give us a synopsis. What is MH370 all about?

Louise Malkinson 05:02
So, yeah, it's MH370: The Plane That Disappeared. In 2014, Malaysia Airline MH370 vanished along with 239 passengers on board, and nine years later, the plane still hasn't been found. So, this series we speak to families of people that were on board, we speak to journalists and searchers across the globe who have been working for the last nine years to try and find out what's happened to the plane.

Matthew Sherwood 05:39
And, Harry, I mean, this is one of the biggest mysteries of aviation history, isn't it.

Harry Hewland 05:45
It is, it is. I mean, it gets bandied around a lot that phrase, but with good reason for this story. I mean, it's one of the reasons why, you know, it was important to us that 'The Plane That Disappeared' was in the title. You know, I think we wanted people to know that this is that story, you know. And also, I think, because it has no ending this story, you know, the mystery is not solved. It's one that if you talk to people about it, you know, they'll say, Oh, is that still missing? You know, like, I didn't know that. Didn't the pilot do it? You know, they don't - because we don't - there is no ending. No ending has been reported. So, yeah, it remains, you know, the world's greatest aviation mystery, for sure.

Matthew Sherwood 06:21
Yeah, planes don't just disappear, except this one did. And so, Louise, with - that's an interesting point: it has no ending, and so, is that how, you know, that's a challenge, isn't it for a documentary filmmaker to tell a story that doesn't have an end. Is that what you've - you know, is that the first thing that kind of came to mind when you started working on this? How you're going to frame it, given that there is no ending?

Louise Malkinson 06:58
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we all - whenever we tell stories, we always want a beginning, a middle, and an end, don't we? And, I think, you know, I think one of the things that struck me when I first started looking into this was, you know, that challenge in itself, you know, we don't - we don't have an ending to this, and that, for me, resonated with, you know, the next-of-kin, because [to] not have any answers nine years later, after this plane goes missing, is just unimaginable. And I think that was something that was really - you know, the next-of-kin have been incredibly - you know, they're central, they are the heart of this film, and I think, just not knowing is just something that we can't - you know, we're not, we can't process, really, you know, we need to be able to tell, we need an ending to a story. And, I think, you know, sort of, to be able to kind of look at this story, to be able to kind of put it back out there in the public domain, to say that, look, you know, this is the greatest aviation mystery of all time, and we still don't have an answer to it was really important for us, and to be able to tell the story of the people who have been affected by it for this, you know, for the nine years since it's been missing. And that is the next-of-kin, alongside all of the journalists, the experts, have all been trying to find the answer.

Matthew Sherwood 08:24
And Harry, I mean, I think that's - I mean, as Louise was saying, I mean, is that sort of what - because there have been other MH370 docs and TV shows and stuff like that. But is that what - what is - what distinguishes this series? I mean, besides being done by yourselves, and being excellent and everything, but I mean, what is it - what are you bringing to the table that maybe others haven't? Is it this - is part of it that angle, the passengers, families, and loved ones?

Harry Hewland 08:58
Oh, they're the central voice in it, absolutely; they are the most important; we realized that from the beginning. I mean, look, we weren't naive enough to go into this thinking that, you know, after nine years with teams of scientists and aviation experts from around the world not having solved the mystery, a bunch of TV producers, were gonna do it. We, you know, that really wasn't our objective. We just wanted to meet as many of the people as we could that had been most affected by this, and who were at the heart of the story; you know, as Lou says, from the next-of-kin to the officials who were, you know, wrestling with trying to provide answers in a totally unprecedented situation, to journalists scratching their heads and trying to present the story to the rest of the world when there were no answers. Everybody has a different story about how they were sucked into MH370...

Matthew Sherwood 09:50
Right.

Harry Hewland 09:50
... and, you know, we couldn't tell all of those stories, but we wanted to include as many of them as possible, really, and tell the kind of the human story of the impact of MH370 and what this kind of mystery can do to people, rather than, you know, roll our sleeves up with the science and try to solve the mystery, which, you know.

Matthew Sherwood 10:12
And so, with that in mind, Louise, I mean, did you have any idea where this was going to lead you when you got started on this project? I mean, there's that old, so overused cliche, but the peeling of an onion and all that stuff, but - you know, is the film that you ended up with, is it what you envisioned - envisaged, I guess - the looking like when you started going into this?

Louise Malkinson 10:32
I think [what] was interesting is when I remember - I remember the plane going missing in 2014. And as Harry was saying, before, you sort of, I knew what had happened, and it was - I, you know, it was international news at the time, but I didn't really know what had happened since, you know, I wasn't sure whether or not the plane had actually been found. And I think what was - as we started to dig into it, it is such an incredible story, where there are so many questions, and there are far more questions than there are answers. And I think, you know, as we were going through it, and, you know, we were talking to people and hearing different people's theories and opinions, you know, you'd get so far down one track and then suddenly think, Oh, no, that can't possibly be true. And I think what was really interesting was seeing how, you know, looking at it, and seeing all the, you know, talking about the different theories, and looking at all those questions that are still there. And then thinking about how we could pose all of - put all that together into a series and kind of tell a sort of comprehensive story of MH370, as to where it is now.

Matthew Sherwood 11:45
And I mean, like you've - well, this isn't giving anything away, but you structure it with three episodes, and each one is kind of focused on one of the three, one of three contentious theories, but what is interesting is how something that's presented in Episode One, I mean, then all of a sudden you forget about and it shows - pops up again in Episode Three. I mean, it must have been - that must have been a challenge in trying to tell that and interweave all those different rabbit holes that then do come together and then go back apart again. That would be fair enough, wouldn't it?

Louise Malkinson 12:19
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what's interesting, you know, it's, you know, people trying to piece together what had happened and then trying - you know, Florence de Changy, for instance, who was in the - whose theory is in the third episode, one of the things that she did, and she will say so, is go right back to the beginning. So, she came a year on, she'd covered the story when it first happened in 2014, but a year later, she decided to look at it because things - the plane still hadn't been found. And the thing that she did was go right back to the beginning, and look at everything that had happened, and a timeline of events. And, you know, Jeff Wise did a very similar thing. So, it's all about people going back and retracing, and trying to find out little pieces of information that then they can piece together.

Matthew Sherwood 13:07
And so I'm going to - so, I don't think we need to, nor probably you wouldn't want me to go into, let's go down the three different theories and all that kind of stuff - but let me pose this question. I'll go to Harry, first. Is there one theory in particular that you do - give more credence to than others? When you're...

Harry Hewland 13:32
You know, I think Lou and I, as filmmakers, you know, we wanted to maintain objectivity and distance, not, you know, pull the threads together in perhaps the way that people in our film, do. You know, I think one thing's for sure with this, as Lou said is, the deeper you dig into this mystery, the more questions you unearth, and not answers. You know, and some people who have been doing that have, you know, joined the dots, some in more extreme ways than others. But I think it's always been important to us to refrain from doing that, really. So, you know, we present the journeys that these people went on.

Matthew Sherwood 14:23
Louise, I suspect you're not going to say anything much different than that.

Louise Malkinson 14:27
No, exactly. And I think that's the thing, you know. It's important - it was what we wanted to do was put the theories out there. And it will be interesting to see what people take from those theories, because, you know, they're all laid out, and, you know, as I said, the people that have laid them out, they've been involved in this story from the very beginning, so, they've spent the last nine years putting the pieces of this - trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Matthew Sherwood 14:54
Okay, well, I think that gives us good time to give our listeners and viewers an early break as they puzzle what we're even talking about, about all these different theories, which we've been very hazy about, so, we'll be right back with Louise Malkinson and Harry Hewland, the filmmakers behind MH370 The Plane That Disappeared, three part Netflix docu-series releasing on March 8.

Factual America Midroll 15:20
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 15:40
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Louise Malkinson and Harry Hewland, the filmmakers behind MH370: The Plane That Disappeared; three part Netflix docu-series. You've probably - it's already released - it releases on March 8. We've recorded this before then, but this is probably releasing about that time, and March 8 is the anniversary of MH370's disappearance. Louise, you've already said it, the film is so much more than just the disappearance of a plane. And, you wouldn't say this, but it's almost a pretext for exploring other issues, I would say, in the sense of, like, grief and how we deal with the unexpected, and unexplainable, and the need for closure. Even in a modern world, this - what struck me is in one case, the, you know, one of the family members - that just the power of touch, just wanting to be able to touch something that maybe their loved one had been close to, even, at the time of the, of whatever happened. And that, I think, that's a powerful side of this film. I mean, would you say something more on that?

Louise Malkinson 16:53
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I sort of touched on it at the beginning, but that need for closure. When you see - when you are around people who have suffered ambiguous loss in this way, you know, which is such a complex trauma, because, you know, you can't be - I think the mind goes between, you know, sort of the potential reality of what's happened, but then also the faint hope that, you know, you might - your loved ones might be alive, and I think, you know, talking to next-of-kin from all over the globe. So, we've had, you know, I spoke to people in China, we spoke to people in Malaysia, we spoke to people in France and in, you know, all across - everybody's the same: we all need closure. We all need it. We need to be able to, you know, say goodbye, and the fact that they haven't been able to do that. And also, again, with this particular story, the fact that there's so few answers to all of those questions, it's sort of an unimaginable torture that they've had to go through, through all this time.

Matthew Sherwood 18:02
Yeah, and maybe you could say - I mean, how are they - yeah, as you say, it's nine years on now. I mean, they still go through this on a daily basis, but how are they doing? And how did they hold up? They must - but, I mean, we see it even in some of the interviews, it was - it wasn't easy for them, obviously, to sit down with you and relive this. But how - I mean, nine years on, are they still searching for answers? That's the search that never ends, is it?

Louise Malkinson 18:31
Absolutely, yeah. And I think, you know, they're a very strong community and, you know, I mean, specifically the people that we've been speaking to, you know, the next-of-kin come together, every year around the anniversary, for example, and they're still a very strong group of, you know, family to come together and, you know, for them, they are continually pushing for answers, and they would - they're pushing for the search to be resumed. So, they're not going to stop, you know, until they - they're going to keep going until they can get the answers that they feel that they deserve.

Matthew Sherwood 19:12
And while searching for these answers, against this - amid this backdrop of conspiracy, and I think conspiracy theories get a bad - kind of have a bad connotation, but in many ways this does seem appropriate in the sense that it does sort of seem - well, I can understand why - whatever happened, it seems unlikely that no one knows, right. I mean, I think that's probably what gets behind a lot of these theories, but, I mean, Harry, maybe - I mean, it's also an interesting kind of insight into how even most well meaning - or not just well meaning because that's kind of condescending in a way - but just well meaning individuals can go down rabbit holes when there is no transparency, when there's no, you know, you grasp at straws, don't you.

Harry Hewland 19:59
I think that's right. I mean, you know, with every mystery like this conspiracy theories will always fill the void where there's an absence of truth, right. It's - people have to speculate because there aren't the facts to come up with a watertight theory about what happened. So, you know, that's what's happened in this case as well. But, you know, I think for the next-of-kin, often, you know, people have suggested that, you know, it's traumatic for the next-of-kin to hear these various theories, but actually, the truth is that the people that we spoke to, you know, yes, they're confused, they don't know the truth, but actually, they're just grateful that people are still trying to figure this out, you know, they're grateful that people are still talking about it, you know, and so, for us, you know, our objective, as I said earlier, you know, was to explore the journeys that these people have been on. But also, one thing became clear doing that was that, you know, it was incredibly important to raise the profile of this story, again; we're really hopeful that this series will do that. And hopefully, motivate, you know, a new search, or at least amplify the cry for a new search to continue, because as I say, you know, this is still a story that has no ending, and it will - it won't have an ending until the plane is found.

Matthew Sherwood 21:33
Indeed, and it's incredible that - yeah, we're in no different place than where we were almost literally nine years ago, you know, in many ways. How did you, both of you, I mean, Louise, how did you all become involved with this project?

Louise Malkinson 21:53
Well, the project was - so, Raw Production, who [are based in] London, they were talking to Netflix about this story. I mean, I think, you know, in terms of stories to be told, it's, you know, as we said, the greatest aviation mystery of all time, and I think it was something that they wanted to do. And then, when they approached me about it, as I said, I was - I knew about it at the time, but the more I sort of looked into it, the more interesting it was, and - you know, I think we might have said this at the beginning, but this happened in 2014, you know, it wasn't 100 years ago. So, the fact that, you know, we're in a world where there's telephone - mobile phones, and satellites, and radar, and we can track everything, and we're always - we're so used to being able to put the pieces of something together, and then work out what's happened. And so, to have such little amount of information to be able to do that with, it was just, it's just so compelling to sort of get involved, you know, to kind of start digging into. And so, that's how I sort of got into it. And, you know, it's been, it's been a really interesting journey to be on.

Matthew Sherwood 23:08
And how about you, Harry?

Harry Hewland 23:11
How did I, how did I come to the project?

Matthew Sherwood 23:13
Yeah.

Harry Hewland 23:15
Well, I was working on another series producing at Raw, the production company where we made this series, and had heard that this [film] was being made, and got very excited. You know, it's - for me, my background is in True Crime. That's producing television about it not committing...!

Matthew Sherwood 23:42
[laughing] It's okay, we'll, uh...!

Harry Hewland 23:44
And so, you know, I think - I've made films about missing people. And without wishing to trivialize that, and it's always very tragic, I think people can get their heads around a missing person story. But when, you know, a 200 foot long commercial jet goes missing, and stays missing for nine years, it's kind of incredible. And that's kind of what, you know, when this story broke, I remember just in 2014, just being completely obsessed by it, you know. I think to this day, I think it's still remains CNN's, like, highest rating news event. They were just running it 24 hours a day...

Matthew Sherwood 24:30
Right.

Harry Hewland 24:30
People were just obsessed, and I was drawn into it, too, it just - it doesn't make sense. And the longer it goes on, the more it doesn't make sense; you know, how can it be this long, and it still not be found, you know, it's never happened before. And so, I was really eager to work on the series. And, you know, I met Lou, and the executive producer, Sam Maynard, and, you know, the moment I met Lou, I was desperate to work with her, you know, I think we're on the same page about, you know, keeping an open mind about this, and investigating it together, and just going on this journey together, and also, crucially, realizing and knowing from the outset that the real heart of this story is with the next-of-kin, you know, and that we had to do them justice with whatever series we made.

Matthew Sherwood 25:17
Yeah, I think - no, it's - we've had at least one Raw doc on. We had Trainwreck: Woodstock 99 on, although it was called something different back then. And I - we - do you know...

Harry Hewland 25:29
I've heard that story, yeah!

Matthew Sherwood 25:32
So, I had to - it was even almost a running joke. How many times - you know, is it going to be a drinking game. How many times did we say 'clusterfuck', basically. And then the day before we released, Oh, by the way, the name's been changed. So - but no, it's a - you guys are - you've got a - I mean, do you - both of you, been working with Raw, a decent amount?

Louise Malkinson 25:55
This was my first project at Raw, actually. But they make such fantastic shows, and so, it's absolutely fantastic to be able to come and work on something like this. And it's been absolutely brilliant. So, yeah, I was very excited to be able to come and work with them on this.

Matthew Sherwood 26:12
And you, Harry?

Harry Hewland 26:13
I worked at Raw on-and-off for about ten years, yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 26:17
Yeah, so - yeah, no, I think I was - I imagine we're going to be hearing more and more about Raw, it's - and is this a - I mean, because you're - it's UK based, right. We're all based here in the UK, and if I had been thinking maybe I could have headed down to London, and we could have done this in person, but, you know, that's something we will start be doing more, but it's a - do you see an advantage there from being UK based, and then doing these - well, this is more of a global, international story. But I know, Trainwreck was more of a US story. Does that - how does that play with - or does it make even a difference when you're talking to the Netflix's of the world?

Harry Hewland 27:02
I mean, the big disadvantage to being here is it's freezing right now. I'd much rather be where you are. I don't - I mean, you know, I think Raw is a company that, you know, just prides itself on putting decent, strong, hard working filmmakers, interrogative filmmakers, behind their films, you know, and putting every penny on screen that they can, you know, and so, it's, you know, it's been a pleasure to work there for the last ten years because, yeah, opportunities like this come along, you know, to work on projects like this.

Louise Malkinson 27:44
I think the, you know, having this sort of - Raw being so fantastic at what they do, and then they have a great relationship with Netflix, and I mean, this story in particular is a truly international story. So, to have a platform to be able to - as Harry said before - get this story back out into the public domain is fantastic.

Matthew Sherwood 28:04
Well, I think you've definitely - you're going to achieve that. So, hopefully this does. Well, I don't know what will happen, but obviously, hopefully, someone - I don't know, you've got some interesting individuals - some very interesting characters in this film - that I'm sure are still on the case and maybe more will join them and for the victims - well, for the passengers' family's sake, hopefully they do get an answer sooner rather than later. I think we're starting to come to the end of our time together, but maybe I can ask what's next for both of you. Louise, do you - any projects you can share with us? Any more Raw projects? It doesn't have to be with Raw but...

Louise Malkinson 28:49
Well, I'm not a Raw at the moment. I'm actually just finishing up on a - I've done an awful lot of crime stuff as well in the past, so I'm finishing up on a series about organized crime in the UK. But, yeah, looking for the next project on the horizon.

Matthew Sherwood 29:08
Okay. And you Harry?

Harry Hewland 29:11
Time with my children, Matthew.

Matthew Sherwood 29:13
Oh, sounds great.

Harry Hewland 29:15
This was a - this job was all consuming as Lou will testify; you know, we filmed around the world, but from our own homes...

Matthew Sherwood 29:23
Yes.

Harry Hewland 29:24
Though all of the, you know, jet lagging with none of the jet setting. So, it was intense, you know.

Matthew Sherwood 29:32
And was it during the pandemic, a lot of this?

Harry Hewland 29:34
And it was during the pandemic; so, you know, the challenges of filming during a pandemic. I mean, we weren't unique in going through that at all; you know, all the productions at Raw, obviously, were...

Matthew Sherwood 29:44
Right.

Harry Hewland 29:44
... throughout the world. But, yeah, that made it - you know, it's a global story. And yet we couldn't travel to film anybody. So, it was tough. So, yeah, right now I'm resting, recuperating, and looking for the next project.

Matthew Sherwood 29:59
All right. Well, well much deserved. And I think you, as you say, you both kind of do crime or true crime, and that's - I mean, what do you - what do you think - maybe I should ask one last question about this - I mean, it's - I don't want to say flavor of the month, but obviously True Crime's big and streamers, and things. I mean, this is - is this something you envision - thought would happen ten years ago, and how big it's become, and what is it do you think that's so, that captures people's imaginations so much with these true crime cases, and which - I guess this is sort of a kind of version of that?

Louise Malkinson 30:41
Yeah, you know, I think, you know, it's huge now, isn't it. But I think the - I think people are fascinated in - and this, you know, I mean, this is a mystery that has no end, but people are fascinated in investigations and in solving things, and in seeing how, you know, true crimes, you know, crimes are solved and things like that. And I think, you know, I think it will continue for some time, you know, I think people will continue to want that. And, you know, there's plenty of - there's, sadly, lots of interesting stories out there to be told.

Matthew Sherwood 31:21
Things that involve planes can be popular, too; people are very kind of into - because it's this whole thing, we - and things that get safer and safer with air travel. We had one on the Boeing incidents, and, yeah, that proved quite popular. I mean, that's how some of my neighbors got to find out I was - I do this as a side gig. Because, you know, they searched for me, and found - were looking up Boeing flights and things. There's something about that. I don't know. There's something. I don't know what it is. But yes, it does draw, it draws us in. Maybe we can't put our finger on it. But it does draw us in.

Harry Hewland 32:01
I think it's things - well, we all have a shared experience, right; so, getting in the ocean having a swim is what makes sharks scary, right; we all do it...

Matthew Sherwood 32:13
Yeah.

Harry Hewland 32:13
... getting on a plane, we all travel, we get on trains, we, you know. So, I think the fact that we all share this experience, the idea that something could go wrong, it creates this tension that people are just drawn to, I think.

Matthew Sherwood 32:31
Well, and I think it's going to pay the bills for you guys for many years to come. So, congratulations again. And...

Harry Hewland 32:40
Can I ask you then, now. What you think happened?

Matthew Sherwood 32:45
Ah, you see; now, you know, it's - for me, it's inconclusive, based on what I - just based on the three you put forward. I don't - you know it just - because I was talking to my wife about it before I came, drove over here, it's just like - because she loves this stuff. She loves True Crime and things, and this kind of stuff, and I was just like, all I know is that someone does know. That's what I concluded. There's somebody - I mean; so, even if you think the French - because, you know, they're - and I thought that was well done. You have the guys, you know, all the - she's making money off of this, right, because that one comment. I've heard that one guy says, I forget - the guy who's part of the Independent Group, you know, but she is an investigative journalist for Le Monde. I mean, she's not like she's, you know - and, you know, the name plates missing, that's interesting - there's no; I mean, I agree with everyone. There's no definitive evidence to prove anything. No one single piece, right. I mean, even that relative - you know, do-gooders going off to what is his name? Blake or Blaine or whatever. Yeah, he was gone - yeah, he has gone to - finds the debris. Yeah, there's debris. Now, I don't - do I think the Russians planted that. No, but do I think the - but, do we know it's definitively from a Boeing 777? No, not at all. In fact, that's what she found out, right, that it's only one piece that has been found could possibly be linked back to that plane. So, that's, I think, is essentially something like that. So, it is just crazy, you know, the FBI stuff. I mean, I wouldn't be - I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if something - you know, it does - that's why that whole AWACS things start sounding kind of making sense. You know, these kind of - and one thing - oh, one thing I was going to say, or maybe one of you did say it, these are all like, it's not like you've got crazy conspiracy theorists on, right? Even Jeff Wise, but you start going down a rabbit hole. And yeah, you can start putting - drawing, you know, connecting the dots, and before you know it you've got, you know, Russia's fingerprints all over this and, you know, any - I mean, and he ties the guy to Russia. I mean, doesn't mean anything, really. I mean, it does and it doesn't. But it is interesting, you know? So, I don't, to be honest, it's an interesting one - I hadn't really thought about which - the thing I came with at the end was just that, I don't know what to believe. I have absolutely no idea. And it just seems - I mean the fact - except I don't think anyone's ever gonna find it. It's in a part of the ocean that's bigger than the United States. And it's, as one guy from Australia pointed out, it's like, you've got the equivalent of the Grand Canyon under there and everything. I mean, I - if that's where it is - I mean, I think even in my intro, I say, if you want to know, you'll hear it eventually, if you listen to this or bother but disappeared without a trace over the Indian Ocean? Or was it the South China Sea? Or Kazakhstan? You know, I mean, realize we don't know. And I think we're in a world where we don't feel like we can trust anyone, or anybody. So, the guys at Immarsat, or whatever the name of that company is, they probably - they seem to - they kind of my dad, they're kind of engineer types. You know, I think they kind of geeky types who probably put a math formula together and it sounds - but you can see why someone says, Ah but they've got US contracts and things, and they work with the US government; so, who knows? It's - it is a - I've never - I don't think I've ever seen anything that's so inconclusive, you know.

Harry Hewland 37:02
I think ultimately, that was one of the biggest frustrations for us is we both came to it thinking, Okay, we're gonna get - we're not going to solve it, but we're gonna learn a bit more.

Matthew Sherwood 37:13
One of them, and maybe it's Episode Three, is really going to be the one that kind of - all the pieces fall together, and it's a little more conclusive. But then - no, I mean, I - do I think - I mean, is it potentially the guy went crazy and went flying off, and - yeah, potentially but, you know, he doesn't strike - here's nothing there that would strike - you know, no one is found. I mean, if there was something there, if it was definitively, whatever: he'd had mental health issues, or whatever, that - some of that - that would have come out by now, you know. Just like, you know, she's - the French journalist says, you know, it flew over, you know, there was all these, you know, military exercises at the time, and it went over an Australian Air Base, and it went, and no one spotted this thing? I mean, I guess the thing is, too, you've got the woman who was very adamant in Episode One, and then she comes back in Episode Three saying, I've found it in the South China Sea. But then no one has found anything in the South China Sea; so, it's - I mean, yeah, I can see this film - this must have been maddening, absolutely maddening, to make.

Louise Malkinson 38:26
It never leaves you, I don't think, you know, it's just - it's like a - and that's what happens with this, you just get - it consumes people, and that's - I mean, you know, like to think of those poor people who had a loved one on that flight. It's just unimaginable. So, yeah, yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 38:45
And I know we got Netflix on here, but Netflix must have been at some point thinking, Where's the ending? You know? And good for you, Netflix, for not being too concerned about that, I think. So, appreciate that.

Harry Hewland 39:00
We're hoping the ending is still to come, Matthew.

Matthew Sherwood 39:02
Well, that's the thing. That's the thing. I think that's very well put. Really, thanks for coming on. It's really much appreciated. Just to remind you, we've been talking with Louise Malkinson, and Harry Hewland, the filmmakers behind MH370: The Plane That Disappeared. It's a three part Netflix docu-series, releasing on March 8. Louise and Harry, thank you again. It was great having you on.

Matthew Sherwood 39:29
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us, and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 40:10
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