Inside Lady Bird Johnson’s White House: Recording a Public and Private Life
Lady Bird Johnson is best known today as the wife of Lyndon Baines Johnson, 36th President of the USA between 1963-69. However, there was much more to her life than simply the role of ‘First Lady’.
In this episode of Factual America, Matthew Sherwood takes a deep dive into Lady Bird Johnson’s life with Dawn Porter, director of new documentary film, The Lady Bird Diaries.
It’s 1963. Liz Carpenter, Lady Bird’s Press Secretary, suggests that she records her ‘thoughts and experiences’ on a tape recorder. Lady Bird agrees and borrows one from Carpenter’s son. She never looks back. Over the next six years she will record 123 hours-worth of material about her day-to-day life.
As Dawn tells Matthew, Lady Bird’s entries are ‘detailed and meticulous’: she had a degree in journalism and was a very good note taker. She was also, Dawn says, very disciplined, observant, and conscious of her place in history.
This consciousness made Lady Bird an invaluable counsellor for her husband. So much so that in an age where there was no line of presidential succession, Lady Bird was even referred to as ‘Mrs Vice President’.
The Lady Bird Diaries describe Lady Bird as ‘one of the most influential and least understood First Ladies in [American] history’. Matthew and Dawn discuss the detail of why that is so. They also explore her abilities as a strategist, how Lady Bird changed the way the White House works, and her political and public independence even from her husband.
The picture they draw is of a woman who was more than equal to the challenge of the difficult age in which she lived, and which she so carefully recorded. For a fuller picture of Lady Bird, the Johnson White House and 60s America, this episode is a must listen.
“She both did and didn’t accept the limit on her authority that society was giving her. She didn’t demand credit for her contributions but didn’t stop making them... her priority was getting things done.” – Dawn Porter
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for The Lady Bird Diaries
02:31 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Dawn Porter, and her film, The Lady Bird Diaries
03:57 – Dawn explains what The Lady Bird Diaries is about
06:51 – Dawn discusses the challenge of making an archive only film
10:42 – The background to Lady Bird Johnson’s eloquence
11:52 – What it was like sifting through 123 hours of Lady Bird Johnson’s recordings
13:50 – Lady Bird Johnson: A brilliant strategist
17:54 – Dawn looks at The Lady Bird Diaries major themes
21:08 – Lady Bird Johnson: A transitional but also highly influential figure
23:36 – Ladybird’s influence on Lyndon Baines Johnson
27:28 – Not a credit seeker: a reason why Lady Bird is little understood today
28:50 – What next for Dawn
29:38 – Dawn’s background as a lawyer and how she became a filmmaker
31:35 – Getting up and getting on: Lady Bird Johnson admiration for her husband
Resources:
The Lady Bird Diaries
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Dawn Porter
More from Factual America:
Stamping Out Racist Lies: America’s Truth
The Rise and Fall of America's Most Corrupt Police Squad
Hamtramck, USA: A Multicultural Landscape
Transcript for Factual America Episode 151: Inside Lady Bird Johnson’s White House: Recording a Public and Private Life
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:31)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Lady Bird Johnson is one of the most influential and also least understood first ladies in US history. To explain why, Dawn Porter, the award-winning filmmaker, joins us to talk about her new film, which brings 123 hours of Lady Bird Johnson's personal audio diaries to life. The result is a fascinating look into the life of a presidential spouse during one of the most tumultuous periods in American history. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:36
Dawn Porter, welcome to Factual America, how are things with you?
Dawn Porter 00:40
Things are great. Thank you so much for having me.
Matthew Sherwood 00:43
Well, it's a pleasure. Just to remind our listeners and viewers we're talking about The Lady Bird Diaries. I believe it - did it premiere at South by Southwest in March?
Dawn Porter 00:53
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 00:54
And released in November. I believe everyone can watch it on Disney Plus. So, do check it out. So, welcome again. Great to have you on. The way we usually start these episodes is just to ask our filmmakers about the film, and what is The Lady Bird Diaries all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis.
Dawn Porter 01:17 (03:57)
Yeah, definitely. The Lady Bird Diaries is a feature documentary. And it's about - it's based on the words of Lady Bird Johnson, who was first lady, who was married to Lyndon Baines Johnson. And soon after, if people remember, LBJ came into office because of the tragic assassination of John F. Kennedy. And so, Lady Bird - so they, you know, they never planned, to, of course, take office in this way. It was really a stunning and tragic event. And she had a press secretary, Liz Carpenter, and Liz Carpenter said to her very soon after they came into office, you should record your thoughts and your experiences. And so, she borrowed the tape recorder from Liz Carpenter's teenage son. And she started her diaries. And her diary, she made notes; you know, she kept a physical diary. But she also made recordings, and she ended up making 123 hours of audio tapes about her experiences as first lady in the White House. So, ABC News had done a podcast, a terrific podcast, I recommend it to everybody, that was based on a book by Julia Sweig. And ABC came to me. I had made a series about Bobby Kennedy called Bobby Kennedy for President, and it's on Netflix - still on Netflix. And I'd also made a movie about John Lewis. And so, ABC News knew that I was interested in this time period. And so, they came to me and said, you know, we have these tapes. What do you think? Could this be a movie? So, I started listening to the tapes and poking around in the archives. And we created a film that is essentially narrated by Lady Bird Johnson in her own voice. So, this is not, you know, we're doing a lot of, I think, exciting work with AI and creating people's voices. But this is actually her voice. So, I want to make that clear. This is Lady Bird's actual tape recording. And we paired that with archival material for the film. There are no talking heads, there are no interviews. It's literally just her recording, paired with archival material.
Matthew Sherwood 03:47
So, we're going to dive into the diaries and the film, but you just raise a good point. I mean, you're a director, what's it like to make a film with no people? In essence. I mean, like, live, you know, this is - it's not purely archival lead, either. I mean, this is very interesting, what you've done. What was the challenge there?
Dawn Porter 04:11 (06:48)
Well, you know, like everything in life, there's challenges and benefit. So, and in this case, they're probably the same. The challenge was, can we tell a story without any contemporary interviews? So, the fun part about it was kind of going through, combing through, listening to all the tapes, and then searching for, you know, what are we going to see? It's a film, you got to see something.
Matthew Sherwood 04:41
Exactly.
Dawn Porter 04:42
So, searching, and what I found that was really creatively satisfying was this film was possible because Lady Bird Johnson was a journalist. And so, her diaries are very, very detailed and meticulous. And what we started finding is when we would listen to the diaries and then find archive that was from the time period, it was a really good match. She was a really good note taker. She also did something that became really crucial for us, which is she noted what reporters were attending different speeches or events. So, when she talked about a woman reporter coming to the White House to interview her, she would list, you know, the person's name and their network and where they were from, or when there was Johnson signing an important bill, she would know which reporters were there. And the reason that became so, so important, is - it's something that actually reflects back on kind of the challenge of making this film. And that was, when we first started looking for archive to match up with her recording, we - you know, when you do archival research for films, you put in the name of the subject, and you kind of search the databases...
Matthew Sherwood 05:16
Right.
Dawn Porter 05:28
... and when we did that, there was very, very little listed under 'Lady Bird Johnson', which seemed very odd. She's the first lady of the United States. And remember, time when media is really, you know, becoming, you know, just - it's covering a lot. This is, you know - there's a reason why we say Vietnam was the most televised war. I mean, this is during that period of the 60s. So, we put in the name 'Lady Bird Johnson', just a little bit came back. We put in the name 'Mrs. Johnson', a little bit more. We put in the name, the search term, 'president's wife', and the date, and even more. And so, we pretty quickly realised that, although there was actually a lot of footage of her, and her in the White House, and her speeches and trips and events, it wasn't always noted by the archivist. They weren't noting when Lady Bird was in the frame. And so, we used her diaries as the guide to go look. So, we would say NBC, this particular reporter, covered this event, do you have footage from that day, and then it would appear.
Matthew Sherwood 07:24
Right.
Dawn Porter 07:24
So, you know, the kind of one of the themes of the movie is that women are overlooked and her contribution as First Lady was overlooked. This is not a film where we found tapes under a bed or in an attic. This is the film where all the archive was present, but nobody asked for it until we asked for it. And so, I wanted to make the point that we could make an entire movie of archive with her in it front and centre.
Matthew Sherwood 07:55
Right, right.
Dawn Porter 07:56
Even though the people archiving the material at the time didn't even note her presence.
Matthew Sherwood 08:03 (10:40)
That's amazing. I mean, you mentioned that she made notes. But did she write out the things that she made, in terms of her audio diary, or did she just - because it's very eloquently said. I mean, you know, it'd be amazing to just do that off the cuff.
Dawn Porter 08:18
Yeah, no, she would - so, Lady Bird graduated with a dual degree from the University of Texas, and one of her degrees was in journalism, and she owned a radio station. So, she was just - so, she would make note, you know, audio notes: so and so was there, you know, at the time of this speech, here are the reporters who attended. Then, of course, we had books and we had Julia Sweig's book; so, we had a number of, you know, sources for - and she wrote a book based on her own diary. Like this really, like, thick book, that she, you know - so, she was a historian, she was her own archivist, and she literally says in the diaries, I hope historians will make use of these one day. You know, she wanted there to be documentary material created from the treasure trove of memories that she left with her.
Matthew Sherwood 09:13 (11:50)
So, you've obviously - a lot of these - I mean, how many hours was it? It's an amazing...
Dawn Porter 09:17
A hundred and twenty-three!
Matthew Sherwood 09:18
A hundred and twenty-three! Yes, you know that number very well, I'm sure; it's tattooed on your forehead. So, you've gone through all this and - you and your archive producers have gone through all these recordings - I mean, what struck you most in going through those recordings?
Dawn Porter 09:38
I was struck by how detailed she was. I was struck by how disciplined she was. She made recordings, you know, almost every day. She made, you know, really - she was doing this a lot. But I was also struck by how observant she was and how she was really always very conscious of her place in history. And Lady Bird was, you know, when we look back at these events, we now know their historical significance. But of course, when you're living through something, you don't know if this is going to turn out to be an important thing, or if it's just something that struck you. So, you know, she would say, I watched Gunsmoke, and, you know, I spoke to Lyndon, and this is what we had for dinner. And this is what I'm thinking about. Oh, and he says we might have a small war on our hands. So, you really had to listen to the entire tape, because something she would say, very matter of factly: that 'small war' was the Vietnam. And she tells us when, you know, she and Lyndon and his close advisers really started to think that it was kind of, you know, getting out of control. And of course, soon Vietnam, you know, almost overwhelmed his presidency, and becomes a significant factor in his stepping down and deciding not to run again.
Matthew Sherwood 11:09 (13:46)
But what I found interesting - I mean, I'm sure this has been out there before, but it's, you know, you bring it to life, is, you know, this idea of not running in 68 had been there almost from the beginning. You know, she had worked with him, had even put all these notes together, saying, you know, what, in March of 68, is when you announce that you will not be running.
Dawn Porter 11:31
That's exactly right. And I think that that is a really great example of what a terrific strategist Lady Bird Johnson was, but also how important she was as part of his inner circle. So, she literally wrote out, you know, what you ought to do is finish JFK's term, run one more time, and then retire in March of 1968, and not run again. And that's exactly what he did. And of course, they could not know that Bobby Kennedy would be assassinated, that King would be assassinated, that all of these terrible things, you know, would happen, and Johnson thought about, you know, kind of, should he - was that the right decision, you know, like, after Bobby Kennedy's assassination, you know, by then, kind of the die was cast that he had made this announcement, and that's what happens. But, you know, when we think about this - Bobby Kennedy's assassination in June of 1968, the country was just worn out by protests, by the terrible violence, and the Democratic party didn't rally around - the Humphrey election was close, but Richard Nixon ends up taking, you know, winning, and, you know, then another project I've just finished, so I'm thinking about these things, you know, together: Nixon appoints four Supreme Court justices. Imagine if either, like, Johnson had stayed in the presidency, or if Bobby Kennedy had won, the trajectory of the United States Supreme Court would be completely different.
Matthew Sherwood 13:13
I think that's a very interesting and very important point, and I want to actually give our listeners and viewers a quick break and then come back to it because I think you - some things that really struck me watching this film, in terms of present day. So, we'll be right back with Dawn Porter, the director and executive producer of The Lady Bird Diaries, released in November and streaming on Disney Plus.
Factual America Midroll 13:39
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X. To keep up-to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 13:57
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award-winning filmmaker Dawn Porter, director and executive producer of The Lady Bird Diaries. Released in November on Disney Plus. So, we were just talking about how the trajectory of the United States could have been different. That fateful year of 1968 gets referred to a lot. A few years ago felt like 68. I've even talked to another filmmaker who lived through 68 and said he thought 2000 was another 68. But regardless, that's maybe sort of pop historians having a little chat, but what struck me in Lady Bird's diaries and what you document is, at one point, if you closed your eyes and heard a different accent, that could be the current first lady in the office, that could be probably any - most first ladies in the office. I mean, she's talking about the non-stop media glare, you know, she's talking about what the young people are going through in turmoil, in a very tumultuous period in US history, and it feels like it could be - been written today.
Dawn Porter 15:15 (17:52)
I agree with that completely. And that is something that struck me also, you know, when you have such a voluminous amount of material to choose from, you know, all these hours of her diaries, you in order to kind of make sense of it, what we did is we chose themes. So, there were themes that I was really interested in, in addition to like, all the highlights, you know, I guess, if you want to call it that way, or the significant events that happened, I was also interested in like, what was it like to raise children in the White House. What was it like to be, you know, the spouse of the President of the United States. Civil Rights was, of course, really interesting to me. And so - but I do think you see some, you know, kind of really fascinating parallels with, you know, one can only think about Michelle Obama, you know, a double Ivy League graduate, who is trying to figure out how does she have a professional life as well as being the spouse, and raise young children in the White House, be the mother and the wife that she wants to be, in addition to a public servant, which is what the first lady of the United States is. Lady Bird Johnson had to figure out her place. And, you know, she's straddling these eras. She's coming from being a 1950s congressional spouse, you know, a white woman where women's rights are not, you know, are really curtailed and really prescribed. You know, at the time she's operating, women can't have their own bank account and credit card...
Matthew Sherwood 16:57
Right.
Dawn Porter 16:58
... she goes from that to figuring out like, how am I going to, you know, how am I going to be of service? And how am I going to do that, and kind of be true to my own ambitions and my own goals for my own life as well as my goals for my country?
Matthew Sherwood 17:12
Right.
Dawn Porter 17:12
So, I think every first lady had to ask herself, you know, until now, it's always herself, right, it's always the first spouse has always been a woman.
Matthew Sherwood 17:22
Right.
Dawn Porter 17:24
And so, I think they all ask this question. It's not lost on me, and probably on any of your listeners and viewers, that Jill Biden is the first, you know, spouse, to have paying work outside of her job as the first lady. So, you know, it's 2024, and we haven't had any first lady, even people had significant careers, you know, able to work outside of the demands of the White House. So, I do think, you know, Lady Bird is dealing with protests, with media coverage, with scrutiny of her personal life and appearance, and also wanting to be of service. And that's something that I think most of the first ladies of the United States, many, many of them have wanted to use their platforms for the betterment of the country, and I think it's so interesting to see how they all navigated that.
Matthew Sherwood 18:24 (21:01)
I think that's a very good point. And in other ways, she's also this very transitional figure, first lady figure. I mean, let's put her in perspective, because I think even in your - is it a logline that you all have with the film that she's probably one of the most influential and least understood first ladies in history. So, let's start with that first one. How is she one of the most influential?
Dawn Porter 18:51
You know, some of the things that Lady Bird Johnson did that I don't think she's really given credit for is she lays the groundwork for establishing the East Wing, so let's start there. She insists that President Johnson pay a staff for her and she hires all women, so she gets a paid, you know, press secretary, an assistant. And Rosalynn Carter is credited, to her credit, with formally establishing the East Wing, but it was Lady Bird Johnson who said this is a job and I need assistance, and we should pay them; this is a career. And so, Lady Bird really establishes that. In addition, she's actually also the first first lady to campaign alone for her husband during a presidential race. So, that whistlestop tour that she does, she's the first lady to do anything like that.
Matthew Sherwood 19:46
You mean, even Eleanor Roosevelt didn't even do anything.
Dawn Porter 19:49
Eleanor Roosevelt made speeches for her husband after he was in office. But Lady Bird goes out on the campaign trail alone. And when you think about that campaign trail, it's so, so significant.
Matthew Sherwood 20:01
Yeah.
Dawn Porter 20:01
Johnson cannot lose the South. And he cannot lose the black south in particular, because that's what propelled Kennedy over the top to win before him. He's got to keep the South, but he also can't alienate the white voters who are, you know, many, many of whom are not so supportive of the civil rights agenda that's going to bring the black voters there. So, once again, we see a complete parallel to today's history, where you've got to, you know, gather the support of a, you know, great number of these individual constituencies. And some of their goals are competing. So, Lady Bird, you know, Johnson sends his white, southern wife into the Deep South, during one of the most tumultuous periods in civil rights, you know, history. And she does it, you know, she really does actually deliver.
Matthew Sherwood 20:56 (23:32)
Yeah. And, I mean, you've already talked about - we already talked about how she even, you know, she's talking strategy with him, and they had this whole strategy about the White House and his political career and giving critiques on his speech, which you make, at the very end of the film - no spoil spoiler alert, I guess, potentially - but yeah, President Obama references. But there's also this thing you capture, there's this, we don't need to go into details, necessarily, but there's a little bit of a scandal that happens before the 64 election, and basically, she wants to come out with her own statement for this close friend of theirs, and Johnson's, you know, LBJ, basically Lyndon says, No - yeah, because they're all LBJ, I'll have watch that - Lyndon says, you know, No, we're not going to say that. She goes, No, I am, and you'll see what I have to say. It's already been cleared. And she goes ahead and does it.
Dawn Porter 21:58
She goes ahead and does it, you know, and it's a really sensitive topic. A very close aide - yeah, their closest friend and, you know, multi-decade friend and advisor, and, you know, employee of the Johnsons is involved in a situation where he's outed for, you know, homosexual activity. And Johnson literally instructs her and says, You can't get involved in this. And she says, like, in one of like, my favourite moments in the film, and she says, My love, my love, already. It's already done.
Matthew Sherwood 22:36
It's done. It's too late. I've cleared it by Abe...
Dawn Porter 22:38
Done! She did it. I cleared it with Abe Fortas. And, you know, yeah, she just went ahead. And what she did is, and this is important, too, Lady Bird owned - she bought a radio station in Texas. And she, like, that radio station becomes the basis for their wealth; like, Johnson wasn't a wealthy person. And when he was over in war, she ran his congressional office. So, she was not, you know, people if they know her, they say like, didn't she plant flowers, and, like, she had some flowers planted. But she did quite a bit more. So, you know, another thing that's really interesting to me is, when Kennedy is assassinated, the United States did not have a plan for succession in place. So, today, we know if the President is assassinated, goodness forbid, and the Vice President ascends to the presidency, the third in line is the Speaker of the House, right? That situation was not established until after Kennedy was assassinated. And so, Johnson had no vice president, for that year and a half, that he fulfils Kennedy's term. And so, what he had was a group of advisers, including, of course, Lady Bird, and the press used to jokingly refer to her as Mrs. Vice President.
Matthew Sherwood 24:07
Oh, Wow.
Dawn Porter 24:09
So, people knew, you know, at the time, what kind of influence she had. And what I think is so interesting is, she both did and didn't accept the limits on her authority that society is giving her. So, she, you know, she didn't demand credit for her contributions, but she didn't stop making them. She went ahead and forged a path and did the work that she was going to do. And she wasn't looking, you know, to be credited for it. She was just looking to get the work done, and she was a brilliant strategist in that.
Matthew Sherwood 24:48 (27:24)
And do you think because she wasn't seeking credit, is that why you maybe would describe her as maybe one of the least understood, that there's this...
Dawn Porter 24:56
I think so, you know. I think that her priority was getting things done. And her daughters, who have been just lovely, you know, become lovely friends during...
Matthew Sherwood 25:11
Oh, wonderful.
Dawn Porter 25:12
... yeah, the touring of the film. And, you know, they remark, both of them individually, Lynda and Luci said, Daddy thought mother was the smartest person he knew. And they ran everything by each other. They had a very contemporary marriage in that sense. And yet, I think a woman today would have a lot more expectation that she would be, you know, given credit for her contributions. And Lady Bird just, I don't know, she just didn't demand that at the time. Maybe how, you know, maybe things have changed in that way.
Matthew Sherwood 25:54
Well, we're going to be - looks like we're actually coming close to the end of our time together, Dawn, but I just wanted to just say, Well, what's next for you? I mean, I think you mentioned this - is this supreme court doc, is that come out already?
Dawn Porter 26:10 (28:47)
Yeah, so I just completed. It's a four-part series for Showtime, Paramount Plus, on the Supreme Court. We start at the Warren Court, which is the court in the 1950s, and then bring it all the way to today. And the kind of the animating theme is how did we get here?! What has happened? But we start with the Warren Court, because, you know, that's the court that gives us Brown v Board of Education, that gives us, you know, all of these things, like, Miranda warning, all these significant pieces concerning individual rights. The Warren Court establishes that the Supreme Court is going to decide those cases. And so, then we kind of march forward from there.
Matthew Sherwood 26:58 (29:35)
Okay. And in case people hadn't figured it out already, you've got a background as a lawyer, don't you? How did you get into filmmaking?
Dawn Porter 27:09
I used to work for ABC Television and ABC News, and I [...] a law firm, then at ABC, and then at A&E, and so, I watched a lot of really smart, terrific producers doing their jobs, and watching them do their jobs, I thought, Well, I think I could do that. So, you know, sometimes you just greenlight yourself and I was like, you know - I'll try that. And, you know, John Lewis, I made a film about John Lewis, called John Lewis: Good Trouble, and travelling with him, he just would kind of show me, sometime, the most important decision you can make is what are you gonna do tomorrow? Not, you know, kind of what your whole life plan but like - and he literally would say to me, there's always something you can do, whether it's big or small, there's always something that you can do to, you know, kind of make things better for yourself, your family, the people you love, your country, etc. So, I think, like, in my career, I didn't, like, declare I was going to be a filmmaker. I got interested in a particular story, and I was trying to figure out how to tell that story. I'm now a director!
Matthew Sherwood 28:36
Yeah, I was gonna say it's not just a producer, you direct all these films, too.
Dawn Porter 28:41
And so, you know, I'm a really happy person because of it. Like, I get, you know, to explore the things I'm curious about. Most of the time somebody pays me!
Matthew Sherwood 28:55 (31:32)
Well, I'm sure they're gonna keep paying you to do that. And I think to bring this all full circle, I think doesn't Lady Bird say something similar towards the end of the film, sometimes it's just about getting up in the morning and concentrating on the things you have to do that day, and that's also what she admired in her husband; his ability to just get up every morning, because - I mean, one thing we haven't even talked about, but I mean, she, I mean, I wasn't even aware of how bad his depression was, you know.
Dawn Porter 29:26
Yeah, that was - yeah, that was Lady Bird in her diaries, and I think that was part of the reason she embargoed their release until, you know, after both of them had died. You know, but what's also really important to remember is Lady Bird not only released her tapes, but she made Johnson's tape recordings available to the public. The many, many films and projects have, you know, noted that - used the Johnson tapes, which are so significant, and that's because Lady Bird released them to the public. She said people ought to hear this history. But that's also why we have recordings of their conversation...
Matthew Sherwood 30:08
Right.
Dawn Porter 30:08
... you know, which they probably thought nobody would really be interested in, but we were!
Matthew Sherwood 30:12
You were and I was, and I really enjoyed it. And I want to thank you again for making this film. I think it's great. You don't have to be but I was - I'm born and raised in Texas, and so, this had resonance as well, a little bit of walking down memory lane for me as well. And thank you again. And if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again some time. So, Dawn, thank you so much for being on Factual America. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Dawn Porter, the award-winning director and executive producer of The Lady Bird Diaries, released in November and streaming on Disney Plus, do check it out.
Matthew Sherwood 30:56
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 31:37
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