American Nightmare: Unravelling Crimes That Never Were

On the night of March 23rd 2015, Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn were drugged and bound by a mystery assailant who had broken into their home. Denise was then kidnapped. When Aaron called the police the next day, they believed he had murdered her. Two days later, however, Denise – who had been sexually assaulted by her kidnapper - was freed. Now the police believed no crime had been committed at all, and that Aaron and Denise were hoaxers. The psychological thriller Gone Girl had been released just six months before.

In American Nightmare, co-directors Bernadette Higgins and Felicity Morris explore both what happened and, as host Matthew Sherwood puts it, ‘the consequences of our cultural rush to judgement and the damage done when law enforcement and the media decide the truth can’t possibly be true’.

The result is a three-part series that twists and turns and upends your expectations with every passing minute. In American Nightmare, light becomes dark, and dark turns into light.

On this episode of Factual America, Bernadette and Felicity guide Matthew through Denise and Aaron’s story as well as the making of their series. Among the topics they discuss are how the unfair treatment of women who are victims of sexual crime motivated them to make American Nightmare, the true crime documentary that inspired and shaped the series, the extensive research that went into the making of it, and how American Nightmare offers the opportunity to get viewers to ask questions of themselves and others about how they treat other people.

They discuss the betrayal of trust, self-doubt, and even out-of-body experiences that Denise and Aaron went through. Perhaps most surprising of all, however, is the point of connection that they find between American Nightmare and Pamela: A Love Story, the 2023 documentary about Pamela Anderson. 

“This happened, and it happens a lot, and if it can happen to Denise and Aaron, it can happen to anyone.” – Bernadette Higgins

Time Stamps

00:00 – Trailer for An American Nightmare
02:10 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guests, Felicity Morris and Bernadette Higgins, and their docu-series, An American Nightmare
04:30 – Felicity explains what An American Nightmare is about
06:35 – How Felicity and Bernadette found inspiration in American Murder: The Family Next Door
09:51 – How Felicity and Bernadette obtained the police footage used in An American Nightmare through Aaron Quinn
10:59 – American police interrogation and the Reid Technique
12:22 – How Denise Huskins became the ‘Gone Girl’
13:54 – How Felicity and Bernadette’s preparation for making An American Nightmare prevented any surprises in the making of it
17:56 – How Felicity and Bernadette got involved with An American Nightmare
21:20 – Why Denise Huskin’s co-operated in the making of the docu-series
24:25 – Learning lessons from what happened to Denise and Aaron
28:50 – Discussing Unbelievable: a scripted version of Denise and Aaron’s story
30:22 – What next for Denise and Bernadette
31:11 – The secret underpinning to Denise and Bernadette’s work
32:27 – Discussing which films Denise and Bernadette enjoyed in 2023

Resources:

American Nightmare
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Bernadette Higgins

IMDb
Instagram

Connect with Felicity Morris

IMDb
X

More from Factual America:

Something Ghostly This Way Comes: The Enfield Poltergeist
Charles Starkweather: The Murder Victim Who Lived
Where the Truth Lies – Investigating MH370: The Plane That Disappeared

Transcript for Factual America Episode 152: American Nightmare: Unravelling Crimes That Never Were

Matthew Sherwood 00:00
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. After a home invasion and abduction, a young couple's recounting of the events is too far fetched for the police to believe. Why did the victim seem so calm? Was it all a hoax? From the filmmakers behind The Tinder Swindler, this three-part docu-series unravels the consequences of our cultural rush to judgement, and the damage done when law enforcement and the media decide the truth can't possibly be true. Joining us to discuss this riveting series are the acclaimed co-directors, Bernie Higgins and BAFTA winning and Emmy nominated Felicity Morris. Stay tuned.

Matthew Sherwood 00:52
Felicity Morris, Bernadette Higgins, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you, Felicity?

Felicity Morris 00:59
Very well, thank you. Thank you for having us.

Matthew Sherwood 01:01
Yeah, it's great to have you on. Bernadette, how are you doing?

Bernadette Higgins 01:04
Very well, thank you.

Matthew Sherwood 01:06
Yes, just to remind everyone we're talking about the three-part docu-series American Nightmare. Releases on January 17 on Netflix. 8am GMT for those of you are just curious. If you're in California, you can get a really early start, or stay up late on the 16th and watch it. So, congratulations. Great to have you on. You must be really excited to get this one in the can and out there and, you know, released on Netflix. How are you feeling about it, Felicity?

Felicity Morris 01:43
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it coming out. Really looking forward to the conversations that will hopefully be sparked as a result of, you know, people watching. Yeah, I think we're excited for it to drop and to hear people's thoughts.

Matthew Sherwood 02:00
Well, for many people if they have - and I'm going to say something about this in a minute but we'll start off with, as we always start off with, is going to start with you Felicity, asking you what is American Nightmare all about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis.

Felicity Morris 02:15
American Nightmare is about a home invasion that happens in the middle of the night to a couple. Denise and Aaron, a young couple, 29, recently started dating. In the middle of the night, people break into their home, Denise is kidnapped. Aaron is drugged. He goes to the police the following morning. Tells the police what has happened, and he's not believed. And unbeknownst to Aaron, meanwhile, Denise is driven miles away from their home and is held captive. She's sexually assaulted, and is released by her kidnapper, by the kidnappers. By which point the police have basically come up with their own version of events, their own story, believing that, you know, first of all that Aaron had killed Denise, not believing his story. And then when Denise is released, believing that she in fact is a hoaxer and has made this up. And before they've even had the chance, before they've even taken the time to interview her, the police go on national television and call her a hoaxer. And she's known to the world thereafter as the real Gone Girl. So, it's about a horrific event. A horrific crime that happens to this young couple, and the consequences of that.

Matthew Sherwood 03:55
So, that's - now, for some of you who maybe haven't seen it, now you're thinking wow, there's a lot of - there are a lot of twists and turns there, already. There are more. They seem to come at a fairly rapid pace throughout the series. But Bernadette, you know, this even - I was watching - those first 10 minutes of Episode One, I mean - it's interesting because it's, you know, I'm watching this and it's like, this feels like other true crime but - it's almost American Murder: The Family Next Door, again. It kind of has that feel, those first 10 minutes or so. And as Felicity has already mentioned that things aren't necessarily what they seem, are they; but that's actually the theme - I mean, it's not the main theme but that is a theme of the whole series. It does seem like every - once you think you know, or have an idea, even once, it becomes even clearer what has really happened. It always seems like there's something else that drops at you, you didn't expect.

Bernadette Higgins 05:01
Yeah, and American Murder: Next Door is a great reference, actually; a brilliant film by Jenny Popplewell, and one that we talked about lots in the edit because it is the one that we think people will be most kind of mindful of during those first 10 minutes, because it is so similar; you know, the police turning up, the body cam footage. And, you know, it does start off like your classic true crime story. And we were very conscious of that, and we deliberately played into that. And that's why we structured the series the way that we did, and why we never wanted the audience to be ahead of the law enforcement who are investigating it at the time. Because, you know, unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that usually, when women go missing it is because they're, you know, fallen foul at the hands of their boyfriend or husband. And so, therefore, we knew that that's what the audience would probably suspect: Oh, here we go. It's another Chris Watts. And unfortunately, Aaron, the police did that to Aaron, and that, you know, ended up being their undoing, really, because they had such tunnel vision, that that was the only way they were looking at him. And that, you know, everything that he told them just kind of served their own information bias. And then obviously, you know, there was a lot of circumstantial evidence, which did not look good for Aaron, you know, the texting with the ex and the fact that they split up previously, and that Denise had been very upset. And, you know, it's all playing into that kind of classic is this, you know, a narcissistic psychopath who's lost his mind and killed his girlfriend.

Matthew Sherwood 06:33
Yeah.

Bernadette Higgins 06:34
You know, and we're all armchair psychologist as well as armchair detectives, people have been diagnosing him left, right and centre, but including the police, and they're supposed to know better. So, it was a real gift for us to have all of the police interrogation tapes because it gave the audience the chance to have that real active viewing experience. You know, everybody gets to play armchair detective and assess Aaron in the same way that the police were. And do we believe this guy? And is this how you really behave if your girlfriend had been taken in the middle of the night? I know, he seems a bit calm, doesn't he. So, you know, it was a real gift for us to have that footage to play with. And that's, you know, it's exactly like you say we wanted very deliberately - and it was a strategic, creative decision to play into that true crime trope.

Matthew Sherwood 07:19
I mean, why - since you bring it up, and I was gonna have a question - I had some questions about, what this says about policing, and certainly in the US, and we could spend a whole episode - many episodes - about that, obviously, you know, all the stuff that's been going on the last few years and continues to go on. But, I mean, with these interrogation tapes, now, I mean, we've seen them in other true crime, I mean, I'm just curious, is it freedom of information; you've asked for them, and they have to turn them over? Is that how it works? And then you've got hours of that stuff to go through to then weave into the story?

Bernadette Higgins 08:00
Sorry. No, Aaron spent years getting that footage. He was diligent about it. Yeah. So, no, it's not easy to just get your hands on that tape. And you have to be very - you have to have a very specific reason for doing it. But Aaron went through all the - really arduous, deliberately arduous, channels of FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act...

Matthew Sherwood 08:22
Right.

Bernadette Higgins 08:23
... to get his hands on all of those tapes. So, you know, he did, he was almost like our documentary producer ahead of time, making sure that we had all of that. So, that was a real gift for us, and really helped enormously in the storytelling aspect of it. But yeah, that was all Aaron. We can't take any credit for that.

Matthew Sherwood 08:40
And then just one last thing on that, Bernie, is that it just strikes me every time like, do these guys not take a class on how to do interrogation and interviews and putting people in, you know, the hours, 18 hours or whatever it is, 12 hours straight of interviewing and the stress that puts under people; it's almost like a form of torture, and what kind of information are you going to get from them and all that? I mean, it just seems to happen way too often.

Bernadette Higgins 09:08
Yeah, well, it is a technique. It's called the Reid Technique, and Aaron could tell you a lot of about that because he's studied a lot on how this has happened to other people since. But essentially, what they're trying to do is to get the story to change. So, they just ask the same questions again, and again, and again, and again. And usually, if you're lying, it's really hard to remember a lie. So, it's quite easy to remember the truth, but it's hard to remember a lie. So, they're hoping that he'll slip up. But of course, the thing is, and, you know, what the police ignored in this situation is that his story never changed. And it was in minute detail. And instead of taking that and thinking, Well, actually, maybe he's telling the truth. They're like, Oh, well, you know, he just particularly good at lying. So, yeah, no, it does beg the question of what are they doing, but it speaks for itself really.

Matthew Sherwood 09:56
And then Felicity, as you've already mentioned in your very good synopsis this - well, I don't know if you said this exactly, but certainly, you know, then the suspicion falls on the victim. Well, the other victim, but certainly the victim, Denise Huskins, and they do think it's an elaborate hoax. And you're saying about, I think we mentioned referencing American Murder: The Family Next Door that actually hadn't been released yet, so what they're referencing is Gone Girl, and you even name your second episode, too, Gone Girl, and it just seems so - again, another - it's almost so cliche that okay, well, we now know it wasn't the boyfriend. So, obviously, the woman's lying.

Felicity Morris 10:47
Yeah, I think by that point, the detectives, you know, they had sort of such strong confirmation bias that it was a case of, you know, any part, any fact that we're told within the story, if it doesn't fit the story that we want this to be, then we're going to dismiss it. But with Denise, the police, the Vallejo police didn't even speak to her before they went on national television, and called her and Aaron liars, you know, to the world; they hadn't even heard what had happened to her, from her. So, you know, that's the kind of - one of the most jaw dropping parts of this story is how can that happen? How can that happen to a victim like Denise, to any victim.

Matthew Sherwood 11:33
And you use the term jaw dropping. I've actually - I do have some notes in front of me and I have that term as well. There's a lot of these jaw dropping revelations that - the ones we're talking about, and ones that just even sort of side revelations that happen. I mean, how much of that, and I'll just direct that to you, again, Felicity, how much of those did you know about already, going in? And how much of that is part of the filming process? You know, as you're putting stories together, you can't believe, wait a minute, that person had a relationship with that person? Did anyone know about that?

Felicity Morris 12:08
I think that, you know, with Denise and Aaron, Bernie and I spent hours and hours and hours on Zoom calls with them before we even started thinking about how we would shape this series, you know, what the kind of twists and turns might be, how to hold back, you know, all of the things that go into making these films and series, as you know, how do we hold back information so that when we tell it, it has the most impact, and it lands with the most impact. But you know, Bernie, and I don't really leave a stone unturned in the research process. And, you know, spoke with Denise, Aaron, the other contributors in this for hours. So, therefore, that meant that, you know, as well as having the archive that we had, as well as having the police report, as well as having, you know, the news archive, you know, all of this material, we then kind of spend weeks working into a kind of a bible, a script, really, as to sort of how we see at that point that the series will shape up. And that kind of helps us then when we get into the interviews with people that we sort of make sure that we don't forget anything, or that we, you know, that we've heard, what's important for the people that we're interviewing, and make sure that we kind of cover it. And we're basically just there. We always say we're just there as kind of guide rails sort of helping these people tell their stories in the best way. But in Denise and Aaron we had, obviously such compelling story tellers that they made our jobs very easy. So, there weren't, I don't think, enormous revelations when we were working with the Dublin police department who come into Episode Three, there was material that they gave us that we hadn't seen before. And that was, you know, interesting, to - interesting to look at, interesting to explore. And, you know, then sort of great material to kind of work its way into the edit, and how we sort of told the story of Episode Three. But I don't think anything came as a shock, apart from, obviously, the shocking parts of this story, which still, you know, make us draw breath when we think about them now.

Matthew Sherwood 14:34
Yeah. Well, I completely agree about that. We'll be right back. I think this is a good time to take a quick break. So, we'll be right back with Felicity Morris and Bernie Higgins. The award-winning filmmakers behind the Netflix docu-series American Nightmare. Releasing on January 17.

Factual America Midroll 14:55
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 15:13
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with the filmmakers Felicity Morris and Bernadette Higgins. Netflix docu-series, American Nightmare is releasing on January 17. Or maybe I should say, released January 17 because you're likely not to hear this until that day or afterwards. Bernadette, we've been talking about, you know, sort of the film and the project, how did you all become involved with this project? I mean, obviously, it's a very compelling story, so I imagine there were a lot of people wanting to make this doc. So, how did you two get involved?

Bernadette Higgins 15:55
Oh, well, we were very lucky that the production company making it was Raw, who we had just made The Tinder Swindler with. And they, you know, there was a diligent team getting access to Denise and Aaron for two years. It was a long process, you know, they were very - they were being very selective about who they wanted to make the film with. But Raw, obviously have a stellar reputation when it comes to telling these kinds of stories. And then we were just lucky that the timing worked out, that it came about just after the release of Tinder. Felis and I decided that we already wanted to do our next project together as well. And it was brought to us, and the first question we always ask ourselves, you know, aside from, you know, because obviously we want to tell a twisty, turny, twisty, turny, compelling, exciting story, but not without good reason. So, not just rehashing a traumatic story for the sake of entertainment. So, the first question we always ask ourselves is 'why?' You know, why would we tell this story? What's the point? What's the takeaway for the viewer aside from, you know, two and a bit hours of entertainment.

Matthew Sherwood 17:01
Right.

Bernadette Higgins 17:02
And there are so many compelling themes that run through this series that we just really wanted to get our teeth into. So, whether it be, you know, the confirmation bias that law enforcement uses again and again, and but, you know, especially for us as female filmmakers, you know, a very compelling element of this was how Denise was treated, and, you know, which is, unfortunately not unusual. But it gave us an opportunity to really dig into that, you know, why are female victims of sexual assault, so often treated as suspects? Why is there so much pressure for them to prove that something has happened. And what was particularly interesting about this was, you know, you hear often a lot of the reasons that, you know, less than 20% of rapes go reported is because they fall into this, you know, grey area, you know, date rape, or he said, she said, this was clearly not a he said, she said, situation; you know, somebody came into this woman's home in the middle of the night and forcibly took her and abducted her for 48 hours. So, that's not a he said, she said, and still the police didn't believe her. So, it really was an opportunity for us to address a lot of how victims of female - victims of sexual assault are treated, and how they're viewed by the public and how we assess victims and how we think we have the right to judge them on the way that they're behaving. And is it the way that we think we would behave? And are they believable, and it's just deeply disturbing, but, you know, we were very lucky that we had this incredible access to a woman who had been through such a traumatic event and was willing to share it on such a huge platform. So, you know, we were very mindful of that, and we really thought this is an opportunity to really make people question themselves. And, you know, once you turn off the TV, turn to the person beside you in the sofa and think, what did you think? Or how did you feel about her and really make ourselves question how we treat people. So, that was what we really wanted to address in the series.

Matthew Sherwood 19:05
And Felicity, I mean, Bernie was already saying, I mean, they were very, obviously, Denise and Aaron, were very careful about who they were going to make this film with. So, it says a lot about you that they decided to make it with you all, but they must have - I mean, even so, they must have been very reluctant to have to relive this again. I mean, because it is so traumatic for both of them, but especially for Denise, and, you know, she, I mean, maybe I think she says, Well, I think it becomes evident, certainly by the end, why, but why is Denise so willing to put herself through this pain again.

Felicity Morris 19:43
I mean, the reason why she wants to put herself through this pain again is so that people, you know, can bear witness to her story. And so that she can be heard, you know, the point at which Denise was, you know, called the real Gone Girl in the press was the point at which this story picked up the most momentum and, you know, was being covered, you know, on nearly every news outlet in America. And, you know, thereafter the months - in the months after - you know, when Denise and Aaron were finally vindicated, thanks to the, you know, the work of the Dublin police and Misty Carausu, you know, there was very, very little media coverage of that. So, I think for Denise and Aaron, you know, there are people that probably left the story at the point that they were known as hoaxers, and that they'd, you know, conned America. And so, for them, I think, you know, this is an opportunity for them to have their story told definitively, you know, we're very privileged to have been able to partner with them. The executive producer on this, Rebecca North who works at Raw, you know, she sort of was the person who worked for a number of years to carefully get the access to the two of them. But for them, you know, they want their story to be told, they want people to hear what happened to them, so that, you know, hopefully, change can be made, lessons can be learned, you know, so that these stories are kind of looked at in a different way. And I think that that was, you know, a big part for Bernie and I in kind of figuring out how to approach it and how to tell this was, you know, we made the deliberate decision, obviously, in The Tinder Swindler to put the victims front and centre, and tell the story from their point of view. And that was certainly, you know, what we wanted to do with this, and not sort of give a voice to the perpetrator of the crime. But no, Denise and Aaron have written a book. I think there's a scripted project in the works. Their book's called Victim F. And so, you know, they, as hard as it is to go over the awful things that happened to them, and particularly Denise, they want this to be out there for people to see, and people to learn from.

Matthew Sherwood 22:09
And Bernie, in terms of these lessons, we were talking earlier about policing and information, you know, the bias and tunnel vision. I mean, what, you know, besides raising this, as your series does so well, I mean, what can we do? What is happening? Or do you see - you know, do you see signs that policing is finally learning these lessons? Or are we just going to be keep repeating this?

Bernadette Higgins 22:43
I don't know.

Matthew Sherwood 22:46
I'm not expecting you to be a policing expert, right, but, I mean...

Bernadette Higgins 22:49
Well, we don't get to hear about the stories when good policing is done as much to be honest with you.

Matthew Sherwood 22:56
And I was gonna say give Dublin - California - some credit, you know, they did it right.

Bernadette Higgins 23:00
Exactly.

Matthew Sherwood 23:01
Yeah.

Bernadette Higgins 23:01
And that was really important to us. Because, you know, Felis and I have no beef with the police and with law enforcement. You know, we don't have any axe to grind. We're not trying to defund the police or anything like that. But this happened, and it happens a lot. And if it can happen to Denise and Aaron, it can happen to anyone. And, you know, that's a really important point that they really wanted to make in coming forward to tell their story as well, because they're very conscious of their own privilege. They're very conscious of the fact that they are white, middle class, tertiary educated; you know, they're not the classic people who fear the police. You know, there are many demographics who have been brought up to not speak to the police until you have an attorney, but it didn't occur to them that they would need an attorney because they're victims. So, why would they need a lawyer? So, it's learnings like that, really. But, you know, if they hadn't had the money to pay for an attorney, what would have happened? And would we ever have heard this story? Or would they be languishing in jail right now? But that's also why, you know, it was really important, and thankfully, a kind of hopeful message when it comes to law enforcement, that we did have the opportunity to highlight good police work through Misty Carausu and the crew at the Dublin police department, because they went above and beyond. So, it's a spectrum when it comes to law enforcement, and we just have to hope that good outweighs bad more often than it does.

Matthew Sherwood 24:28
Just nowhere near anywhere close to any sort of equating this situation, but I was in a bad traffic accident years ago. And I was laying on a hospital bed and a police - well, was a police woman in this case, came in and started asking me questions about what happened. I answered them because I thought, well, they're the police you answer these. And the lawyer - we had to get lawyers involved, and they're like, you should have never said anything to them. And I'm like, Well, what, how was, what I - you know, I was like, out of my head on all kinds of painkillers. What am I - you know, you're in a stressful situation. And I can only imagine what they, you know, the situation like Aaron and then certainly Denise are going through to then - yeah, you do expect the police to have your best interest at heart. But that certainly wasn't the case with the Vallejo police.

Bernadette Higgins 25:21
No, unfortunately not.

Felicity Morris 25:22
And what's so scary about this with Denise and Aaron is, you know, they, you know, with Aaron, obviously they're, instead of investigating what he was telling them, they set out to get a confession, get a confession, get a confession, and that's not unique. But, you know, Aaron's brother is in law enforcement, his brother's in the FBI, he trusts the police, he wanted to be compliant. And, you know, it's the same for Denise, you know, she told the facts, she went into meticulous detail when she sat down with those cops. And yet, you know, at the end of it, they didn't believe her. And I think for both of them, they questioned whether or not this even did - did this happen to them, you know, their sort of sanity and their, you know, belief in themselves and their stories were compromised at that point. And that's, you know, just so unbelievably dangerous, isn't it? And, you know, you hear about it all the time of police getting false confessions. And, you know, thankfully, Denise, you know, Aaron eventually asked for a lawyer, Denise had Doug Rappaport there advocating for her. But who knows, who knows, what would have happened had that not have been the case.

Matthew Sherwood 26:35
And there's, I mean, there's even - I can't even remember the name of it, but there's a scripted series that was out not too long ago, where it's...

Felicity Morris 26:41
Unbelievable.

Matthew Sherwood 26:41
... yes, yeah. I kept - I thought of that quite a bit as well.

Felicity Morris 26:47
Yeah. It's such a brilliant series.

Matthew Sherwood 26:49
Yeah, because she doubts herself, right. I imagined - I mean, and Denise even talks about these out of body experiences - at least with, you know, she had to go through this out of body experience, and that's, I think, a common thing that happens to victims. So, yeah, must have thought maybe, maybe I did get something wrong. You know, I can only imagine that, you know, the trauma about it. But yeah, you see that as scripted, and then yet - but I guess Unbelievable is based on a true story as well. So, yeah, well, thank you for making this. I think it's, you know, really, really - I mean, compelling watching. It's hard to describe something like this as entertaining, because you don't want it to be about - as you've definitely dealt with it, but it is very, you know, I think it's one that in the right way just shocks us in a way that probably we need to be shocked, I guess, you know, without being salacious, or any of these things, which you would never be at risk of doing something like that, but some others - less crafted filmmakers - might have. But, you know, I think maybe just - I think we're coming to the end of our time together, but just wanted to say that, you know, it's been great to have you on, and maybe, what's next? You know, what do you guys have in the works? You've got two projects together, do you have anything else in the works?

Bernadette Higgins 28:27
Oh, yeah, we've actually started our own production company...

Matthew Sherwood 28:30
Oh!

Bernadette Higgins 28:31
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 28:31
Oh right.

Bernadette Higgins 28:32
Called Ladywell Films. So, we both live in an area called Ladywell. So, it seems appropriate. But yeah, we're just building up a slate at the moment. So, you know, we want to keep working together. We want to keep telling stories that we think deserve a platform. So yeah, so that's, we're just looking for the next story at the moment.

Matthew Sherwood 28:55
And what's your secret? Because, you know, we haven't talked about these other ones but Tinder Swindler has been big. Were you both producers, or one of you was producers on Don't Fuck With Cats?

Felicity Morris 29:09
Yeah, I produced Don't Fuck With Cats.

Matthew Sherwood 29:11
Yeah, so - I mean, very, you know, you're doing well. What do you think your secret is?

Felicity Morris 29:19
I think it's, well, the strength of the story, first and foremost, the contributors, the interviewees that tell that story, and an incredible - surrounding ourselves with just amazing teams. You know, beyond Bernie and I, there's obviously so many other people that kind of make these things happen and live and breathe these projects when they're working on them. And yeah, I think that sort of perfect combination, hopefully. You know, hopefully works out in the end, but, you know, we love working together. And, yeah, we're looking forward to finding the next, the next show, the next story to tell.

Matthew Sherwood 30:12
And then I'm going to ask you one last question, if I may, and it's going to be to follow on from a conversation we had before we started this episode. It's a question I've never asked one of our guests. So, you're busy, but it's this time of year people are looking at what are the best films of the last year or so? And do you manage time to watch other docs? And are there any particular ones from 2023 that you really liked, that you think are, you know, sleepers or not sleepers; what really caught your eye in the last year? I direct that to both of you. But Bernie, any in particular?

Bernadette Higgins 30:52
Pamela. The Pamela Anderson doc. Absolutely loved that. We would have loved to have made that. The team at Dorothy Street did a phenomenal job. But again, it's kind of we're not only interested in female led stories, so we don't want to paint ourselves into that corner, but to have grown up with Pamela Anderson, and to have - it's that classic thing again, which kind of is echoed in this story, it's kind of what you're fed by the press and what you devour without really questioning. You know, she was obviously a huge victim of that. So, to give her that platform to tell her story, and to allow us to get to know her and to hear what it was like from her perspective. I thought it was a really beautifully told, a beautifully crafted film. Again, she's a compelling, gorgeous woman who just tells her story so well, but that was a film that really stuck with me last year. I just loved it so much, really.

Matthew Sherwood 31:54
Well, I have to put that on my watch list. What about you, Felicity?

Bernadette Higgins 31:56
Have you not seen it?

Matthew Sherwood 31:57
I have not, no.

Bernadette Higgins 31:58
Oh, you must. It's so good.

Felicity Morris 32:04
I loved Still, the Michael J. Fox feature.

Matthew Sherwood 32:08
Yeah, yeah.

Felicity Morris 32:10
So, the editor on that was the editor I work with on Don't Fuck With Cats.

Matthew Sherwood 32:14
Oh, is that right?

Felicity Morris 32:15
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 32:15
Okay.

Felicity Morris 32:16
And, I mean, you know, Bernie and I obviously watch lots of scripted, unscripted things to kind of help, you know, with creativity and making these series. You know, there are movies that really loom large for us, like Women Talking, She Said, but then also you need relief from all the work, I think, and from the kind of types of documentaries that we are making as well. And, you know, I've watched Still about three times and just loved it so much. I thought it was so clever. I thought, you know, Michael J. Fox, is, you know, was an amazing interview and the visuals, the visualisations that they did. It was, yeah, it was gold that film.

Matthew Sherwood 33:03
Well, and it's likely - once you get to this stage, who knows, but I mean, it's likely to get nominated, isn't it, for an Academy Award, I think.

Felicity Morris 33:11
Hopefully. Fingers crossed.

Matthew Sherwood 33:13
It's on most people's shortlist. So, we will find out in a couple of weeks' time.

Felicity Morris 33:18
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 33:19
But we don't have to wait that long to see your docu-series. So, thanks again, for coming on. Really, really enjoyed having you on. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with the filmmakers, Felicity Morris and Bernie Higgins. They've just, well, just about to release American Nightmare on Netflix. Coming January 17. So, do check it out. Thanks again. Great to have you on.

Matthew Sherwood 33:56
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 34:37
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