Last Flight Home: The Death and Life of Eli Timoner

Eli Timoner lived a life founded on love. As a result, long after an accidental stroke forced him into retirement, he was celebrated by his former workers. And when he died aged 92, on 3rd March 2021, he did so, surrounded by his family.

Last Flight Home, a documentary by Eli’s daughter Ondi, tells the story of his last days. But more than that, it relates how Eli chose the date of his passing, something he was able to do through California’s End of Life Option Act. In this moving and poignant episode of Factual America, Ondi joins Matthew Sherwood to discuss the film, her father, family, and how her experience of his dying and death has made her an activist in support of the right to end one’s own life.

Ondi speaks frankly about her fears when Eli told her that he wished to die, and how filming him – something she did with his blessing – helped her come to terms with what was happening. She reflects on the differences of opinion that existed within her family over Eli’s decision before they came together to see the world anew. She also shares how she believes Eli continues to watch over his family today.

Eli’s story is not an easy one. But neither is it one sided. As Matthew and Ondi’s conversation makes clear, loss is accompanied by grace, beauty, and good memory.

“[Dad] said to me... Ondi, would you rather know the day I'm going to die? Or would you rather get a call in the middle of the night? And it's true, it really allowed us all to prepare, and to plan, and to have closure, and to be able to celebrate, even, his life. And for him, it was like wind in a sail.” – Ondi Timoner

Time Stamps

00:00 – Trailer for Last Flight Home
02:13 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this week’s guest, Ondi Timoner, and her film, Last Flight Home
04:02 – Ondi Timoner explains what Last Flight Home is about
06:16 – Exploring why Eli Timoner decided to end his life
10:04 – Ondi and the Timoner family’s reaction to Eli Timoner’s decision
16:03 – Ondi’s fears about filming Eli’s last days, and how they proved to be unfounded
19:50 – What it was like editing Last Flight Home while grieving
22:05 – What Ondi learnt about her parents in the making of Last Flight Home and how she knew she had a feature film rather than a memorial video
24:41 – The changes that Ondi saw in those who visited Eli during his last days
29:08 – Last Flight Home’s test screening in Birmingham, Alabama
31:24 – Eli Timoner’s impact on people during his lifetime
37:48 – Death: Why we don’t talk about it
39:17 – Ondi discusses her activism and Eli’s continuing presence in her life
46:58 – Rachel Timoner’s reaction to Last Flight Home
48:23 – Reaction to Last Flight home following its Sundance screening
57:29 – What next for Ondi
1:03:50 – Ondi’s praise for Rachel

Resources:

Last Flight Home
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Ondi Timoner

IMDb

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 138: Making a Difference: The Death and Life of Eli Timoner

Speaker 1 00:00 (00:00)
Daddy, you're gonna see the doctor, and then the clock starts.

Speaker 2 00:04
Then the clock starts.

Speaker 3 00:07
Daddy was so full of life.

Speaker 4 00:09
His legacy is massive.

Speaker 5 00:13
He started an airline. He believed everyone should be able to afford to fly.

Speaker 6 00:17
Are you concerned that the big boys are going to drive you out of business?

Speaker 7 00:20
No.

Speaker 8 00:21
Eli was a philanthropist. He would raise millions. He was a pillar of society.

Speaker 9 00:26
Meeting with prime ministers, princes, presidents.

Speaker 10 00:28
He knows Joe Biden from the 70s, and even though he ran an airline, he would get the kids to school. We were a happy fivesome. Those were idyllic years. And then one day he had a massive stroke from an accident and life changed forever.

Speaker 11 00:44
Well, I'm going to take my life on the third of March. I don't want to fight anymore. I just want peace.

Speaker 12 00:54
We don't call it assisted suicide. We call it supporting the right to terminate your life.

Speaker 13 00:58
We don't get a choice on how we come into this world. But we should have a choice on how we go out.

Speaker 14 01:04
Are you definitely, definitely sure you're ready to go?

Speaker 15 01:08
I'm ready to go... the next adventure.

Speaker 16 01:14
I'm so grateful that my wife has stuck with me.

Speaker 17 01:18
I'm an old shoe, don't you understand?

Speaker 18 01:20
You're my slipper. You never held me like that.

Speaker 19 01:30
Are you scared?

Speaker 20 01:31
No.

Speaker 21 01:32
What's made the difference now?

Speaker 22 01:34
Confidence.

Speaker 23 01:35
There's a story in the Talmud, 'may your saplings be just like you'.

Speaker 24 01:39
You did pretty well with the saplings, don't you think?

Speaker 25 01:42
Bunch of saps.

Speaker 26 01:47
I'm scared of what it's going to be like when I don't have a father. I've always had him there.

Speaker 27 01:51
I'm his daughter. When he needs me to be his rabbi, I'll be his rabbi. My whole path has been because of him.

Speaker 28 01:58
What you've provided for us our whole lives is love and care.

Speaker 29 02:02
The world looks so peaceful from above. You've been grounded for so long.

Speaker 30 02:07
I'll always watch you.

Matthew Sherwood 02:13 (02:13)
That was the trailer for the feature documentary, Last Flight Home, and this is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Behind a white picket fence on an unremarkable suburban street, Eli Timoner is about to die. Just as he lived he will do so surrounded by his loved ones on his own terms. As filmed by Eli's middle child, award-winning filmmaker, Ondi Timoner, Last Flight Home is an incredibly intimate and poignant film about what it means to live and to die. Join us as we talk with Ondi about the incredible journey she and her family have taken with this film, the impact it's having on so many people's lives, and how she knows Eli is still watching over them. Stay tuned.

Matthew Sherwood 03:01
Ondi Timoner, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Ondi Timoner 03:06
Thank you, Matthew. Thanks for having me. I'm good. I'm just back from New York where we did a series of impact appearances with the film, screening it in the White House as well as appearance on CNN, on Amanpour and Company. It was wonderful, actually. They were so passionate about the film. So, that was beautiful.

Matthew Sherwood 03:26
Well, to remind our listeners and viewers, we're talking about Last Flight Home. It was shortlisted for an Academy Award. It's currently still streaming on Paramount Plus. And yes, I would just want to welcome you again. It's an honour to have you on. Ondi, how we usually start is we ask our filmmakers, guests, what is Last Flight Home all about? But I know this is something that's very personal to you, for those who haven't had a chance to see it. But maybe you can get us started, give us - just sort of a synopsis of what this film is.

Ondi Timoner 04:02 (04:02)
Sure. Last Flight Home is a sort of an unexpected documentary, even to me. I sort of panicked when my father, who I loved very much, and who was really an extraordinary man in many ways, suddenly decided it was time to go. He was so tenacious all his life, and so positive, despite having been paralysed from an accidental stroke for 40 years that he was never going to say that, but he did. And so, when he did, it was January, late January 2021, and we all had to figure out how to support him in that. Legally, we got really lucky that we live in California, and that there's an End of Life Option Act here that allowed him to go through a 15 day waiting period of hospice at home before he would end his own life with medical aid-in-dying, and my family and I struggled with this choice and were terrified the whole way through, but he said to me, you know, Ondi, would you rather know the day I'm going to die? Or would you rather get a call in the middle of the night? And it's true, it really allowed us all to prepare, and to plan, and to have closure, and to be able to celebrate, even, his life. And for him, it was like wind in a sail. So, the movie really starts with him telling me that, and I started recording right away just because I was - wanted to not forget another word he said, till he was gone. And, you know, what began as private documentation - you know, I've been making films for 30 years, so I had multi-cameras, and I had his blessing. He said, I know you're on the right track, and I didn't know what track I was on, but it started as a personal documentation, and it's turned into a, you know, public facing film that has helped a lot of people. And it sort of takes you through the end of his life, but also goes back into his life a little bit, as well, and our family's journey.

Matthew Sherwood 05:59 (06:16)
Now, as you're saying, he's, you know, he suffered from the effects of a severe stroke for 40 years. And gamely went through life, but what do you think - I mean, you've already mentioned that he made the decision, but what do you think changed in January 2021 for him, in terms of making that decision not to want to live anymore?

Ondi Timoner 06:24
Well, he was in the hospital for breathing complications to do with COPD. And he, you know, he was in bed, I think, for five days. And because he'd been a hemiplegic for 40 years since he was 53 - you know, let's go back to that: 1982. He was running, he ran six miles that morning, he was in tip-top shape, but he went in for a massage and the masseur cracked his neck, which can result in a stroke, and actually I saw a neurologist recently who said she had three patients that had that happen to them. So, that happened to him, and so, he's in bed for five days, and he's 92 now. He just turned 92, sharp as a tack. Yeah, witty, funny, sharp, sharp, sharp man, but was told he wasn't gonna walk again. And he needed to go to a facility. He just - his body would not have been able to recover the ability to walk. As it was, he had fallen many times during Covid, trying to walk but he was such an independent entrepreneur, you know, he was someone who just couldn't bear with the idea of being shoved away in a bed in a facility. And also, for him, his only joy really was being around my mother, his beloved wife and the family, and that's all he lived for. So, he didn't want to go lie somewhere, and wait for a weekly visit. He said, I served my sentence. I've done my sentence. And he was so despondent, you know, but as soon as my brother found that there was a law, which we didn't even know about, and the reason we didn't know about it is because no one talks about death and dying.

Matthew Sherwood 08:10
True.

Ondi Timoner 08:10
You know, we just had no idea. Like, we don't think about it, we don't talk about it. So, we're facing this as a - suddenly - you know, and he's basically saying, come and put a pillow over my face, you know, and pleading with each one of us. If we love him, we'll help him die, and David found this law. And I tell you, he was - it brought him such hope, peace, joy. The idea that he could have agency over his own body after 40 years of really being, you know, he was ousted from the airline he had founded because of stigma to do with disability, even though he was totally able to run it and it ran into the ground. He was - you know, after that the man who ousted him, like, ran it into the ground. He lost his fortune, you know, he was sidelined in every way. But he remained positive, never complained, you know, and it was just really here at this moment where he just couldn't bear it anymore. He couldn't just smile and bear it, and we needed to get behind him. Even my sister who's a rabbi. And, you know, at that point, Reform Judaism along with every other religion in the world was, like, you know, life is a blessing, and it's wrong to take life, and not - not really distinguishing terminally ill people who are going to die, anyway. Which is what, you know, I hope that this film helps to do now, politically, as well as help us understand that distinction and give people their basic human right of bodily autonomy.

Matthew Sherwood 09:41 (10:04)
Now, you've - as you've already said, you get the call and you immediately start recording because you want to remember - get all those last conversations with him on, you know, on tape, but - and you've decided - so, you're a filmmaker, what you do is you film, but what was - you know, you already said what your dad's reaction was, but what was everyone else's reaction? I mean, did they think you're crazy for doing this, and you're all living, you're all going through this at the same time, you know?

Ondi Timoner 10:12
So, my own reaction, like, when I thought of it was this is extremely inappropriate...

Matthew Sherwood 10:19
Right.

Ondi Timoner 10:19
I came to a therapist. I actually went to a therapist, and I fully expected her to agree with me. And she said, if you feel you need to film, you should film. I couldn't believe that. So, I called my dad in the hospital and he said, I instinctively know you're on the right track. I called my mom and she said, I would never buck you in anything you feel you should do. She just supports me, you know. I thought maybe dad was just supporting me, too, but I actually think now he knew I was making a film and he wanted to contribute in this way, and no one else knew that. My brother and I founded Interloper Films together. So, he was - he's a pretty laissez-faire guy, so, he was just kind of like, Okay, Ondi, you do you, you know. And my whole family, they'll tell you that I film everything all the time, anyway. So, they were just kind of like, Okay, this is how Ondi's processing this, you know. And to be honest, I felt like it was a way that I could contribute to the family, because, you know, my brother would interview my dad at night, as you saw a brief segment of, you know, about family history and things like that, that were gonna be gone as soon as he was gone. So, it felt very much like I was contributing. Also, one of the cameras was in another room, the one that had like, it had a long lens, and it was always on dad, and whoever was visiting. And it had the lav mics in it. So, I'd find, like, my brother listening to his kids talking to dad, and I'd find him behind the camera, you know. It was a way that you couldn't see the camera from the bed. And so, it was a way that you kind of could give privacy and give, you know, give that space to whoever was at the bedside, but also hear what's going on. I found my own son behind the camera listening to his grandparents having this beautiful moment that you see in the film. I found him. I said, What's going on with that? And he turned to me and just tears coming down his face, so that was a beautiful sort of side-benefit of documenting, but my sister was the real challenge in all this. She's anti-camera in general. She doesn't like cameras, even though I've been making a film about her for, like, three years now, which is why you'd see that footage of her in New York. She's an extraordinary rabbi and social activist. And I think, as you can see in the film, she's - I mean, part of the reason I had to share this film is because some of the rituals that she brought, like the deathbed confessional and like the singing and like the bathing of dad's body, the openness and tucking him in with the dirt, you know; so many of these things she brought from Judaism, and, you know, in general, I thought were so important that it felt wrong not to share it. But back to asking her permission. She said, it wouldn't be what I would choose, but mom and dad, you know, if this is important to you, that's what's most important. And my father said, It's important to me. And my mother said, at that point, now it's like a week into it, or two weeks, five days - Rachel came five days before dad died. By then they were committed to filming. They loved the idea that there would be something of dad left after he was gone. I think everybody in the family loved that idea. But Rachel, she says that she made a decision that the cameras weren't there. And as soon as she walked into the room, she just forgot about the cameras because what was happening was so much more important, obviously. And so, sort of earth-shattering, for lack of a better word; like, it really felt like we were walking on the moon in our parents' living room; like, it was so fine to walk this plank towards a specific day that dad had chosen to die. You know, the idea of the cameras like, just disappeared, but I also made my best efforts to make it - to use everything I'd ever done in making verite films for thirty years to make those cameras disappear. I mean, one was behind the TV, one was like, part of the furniture. As you saw, I had a nest camera, the reason [...] surveillance cameras because I didn't want the process of filmmaking to ever become a thing. So, like, I didn't have an EP and a crew, for example; I just kept the nest, so I'd know time of day, and I would know, like, you know, the order of things, and I didn't have to label cards or do anything - worry too much about the process. And I just kind of - that house is a house that I own that I gave to my parents that I originally bought, when I was just finishing my movie Dig! and built offices behind it. I built edit suites behind it. So, I actually could make the entire thing disappear into those offices, if that makes sense?

Matthew Sherwood 15:10
Yeah.

Ondi Timoner 15:10
So, the family just had a sacred space. And it worked out. I mean, it was meant to be, obviously - the whole thing was meant to be - people say like, what are the chances that a man has a verite filmmaker and a rabbi as two daughters? So, I feel like maybe all my work, all my work over the last 30 years has led me to this moment, you know, prepared me for this moment.

Matthew Sherwood 15:35
Well indeed, and then for you personally, because you've already said how you've, you know, for you and your family, how you film this and make it as least intrusive as possible, but you're actually going through a grieving, or a celebration process, however you describe it. How was that for you personally? Because you're filming and, you know, going through this, just like your sister and brother and mother are going through this.

Ondi Timoner 16:03 (16:03)
So, when I went to the therapist, I said to her, you know, before I even did this, I said, I'm worried about - I'm worried I'm trying to hide from this, or like, I'm trying to mediate the experience and place this lens as like a, you know, a separation from this inevitable loss that I am about to experience. And it was exactly the opposite. It was literally the first time in my entire career that filmmaking was there for me, on an emotional level. As soon as I set up those cameras, it was like a safety blanket. I was able to be fully present with my dad, because I was nine when my father had that stroke. And I cannot remember him able-bodied before that. So, I was just terrified to forget him. That was really the biggest fear I had, and having the cameras there, I knew I would have something to remember him by, and that I would remember everything. And she also said, the therapist said to me, keep this in mind, you're going to be in shock, the whole time, all of you, which I have since talked to obviously, as the film has toured around, so many people who thought they would remember what their parents said, or what their loved ones said, on the deathbed, or what - and when you are in there, it is the most sacred, I don't know if you've been through a great loss, but there is something - and everybody I hear this from, is like, there's such a - it's such a sacred and beautiful space, made even more so, I think, in my case, my dad was just so calm, courageous, tender, and funny, you know, that he was like the captain of that room. And it was the - these were like some of the best weeks of my life, even though I was obviously struggling with a lot of grief. It was pure presence. You are purely present. Nothing outside matters. And what's most important in life, which is love, is all that matters. And it's all that you're surrounded by in that room, you know. Yet, I didn't remember a tonne of what happened. She was absolutely right. We were all in shock and talking to people, you know, since, all kinds of people they say like, I can't remember - I can't remember anything from then, you know. So, that's another thing is that I, you know, my mother always says, in Q and As, film your loved ones. Like, that's the biggest takeaway she has from this because she's watched the film like 550 times to spend time with dad, you know. From the first, you know, it all started as a memorial video; was supposed to be a five minute memorial video that my sister asked me to make, and it turned into a 32 minute memorial video because dad was alive inside the Avid two weeks after he died. I don't think I would have turned on the editing system and looked at the footage quite that early. But Rachel said, Well, there's a Zoom memorial, you've got footage, can you just put something together? And as you saw in the film, he does so many beautiful visits with his first flight attendant, you know, different people. I thought, Oh, I'll just cut some - it'll be easy, you know, and [...] stand up for a week and, like, I stood up with a 32 minute memorial video! Which, yeah, obviously Rachel wasn't happy about that. But...

Matthew Sherwood 19:18
I was going to say! You told five minutes and you deliver 32!

Ondi Timoner 19:22 (19:50)
Yeah, she's like I had a memorial plan. Now it's a film screening. But it was really like off that first initial - I couldn't believe the things that were - that I was seeing. And now sort of, you know, Dad was where he needed to be, and I - and wanted to be - and I didn't have to worry about his comfort and care anymore. I could just be with him. And it was an extraordinary gift. I can't even begin to describe what it was like to grieve while editing this film. People say, oh, it must have been so hard to edit this film. And it's, like, actually, it was the most, you know, the most symbiotic and beautiful experience as an editor I've ever had. Except obviously the death of my father, which was the only part I couldn't base off the raw footage. I had to get, you know, assistance to cut something together. And then once I saw it, I was like, Oh, no, we have to have this, and this, and this, and I ended up editing, like, 50 times, but even that was very painful because to handle something that surgically, you know, and go from like grieving daughter to filmmaker that felt weird. And now, of course, every time I do a Q and A, I walk in and watch my father die. Again, and again, and again. So, that's intense. I cry still.

Matthew Sherwood 20:45
Yeah, I can only imagine. Why don't we - I do want to talk more about this. I'm not trying to make you relive your dad's death yet again. But why don't we go give our listeners and viewers a quick early break here. We'll be right back with award-winning filmmaker Ondi Timoner, director of Last Flight Home. Do check it out on Paramount Plus.

Factual America Midroll 21:09
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 21:28 (22:05)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award-winning filmmaker Ondi Timoner, director of Last Flight Home. It is streaming on Paramount Plus, for those of you who have access to that. You were just talking about what it's like to - well, you've had to relive or have relived your father's death many times, both in the various screenings you've done and in edit. Yet, I mean, what was - more on that - I'm not trying to get too bogged down on the sort of the edit side of things, but as you said, it was a very difficult thing to do, but did you learn - did you learn anything new about your mom and dad in this process? You know, did you - when you start - well, maybe step back: it was intended to be a memorial film, became like a 32, and then when did - it never was intended to be a feature, when did, you know, what happened there? You just knew you had something that was feature worthy or that you needed to get this out there?

Ondi Timoner 22:30
Yeah, I learned so much. I'll combine your two questions with one answer.

Matthew Sherwood 22:36
Yeah.

Ondi Timoner 22:37
I learned so much about my mother and father, and our family, and life and death, and how to live and how to die.

Matthew Sherwood 22:46
Right.

Ondi Timoner 22:47
Even in that 32 minute memorial video, which was, like, a memorial video, but it also - the effect and impact it had on all the people in that Zoom memorial. It made them less scared of dying. It made them want to talk about it. It made them want to understand medical aid-in-dying, it made them want to have that right themselves. It was very clear to me that what I was handling was extremely unique footage that documents something no one has ever seen. It was a - it was - it's so, you know, as Verner Hertzog put it - he did some - an interview with me, very graciously, and he said you filmed the unfilmable. You know, it was something that just no one ever has access to that, right. And it's a really scary thing to think about sharing something that intimate and private. And that was a whole other phase, was convincing Rachel to allow this to be shared. That's another conversation we can have.

Matthew Sherwood 23:59
Right.

Ondi Timoner 24:00 (24:41)
But it was clear to me, right off March 21 2021, three weeks after dad died, the memorial happens, and it was clear to all of us, that the footage was extremely powerful. Also, I'm still - I'm having an absolutely wonderful time spending time with dad. I can, you know, I come out of my - I have an edit bay at home, and I come out of my bedroom, I can go left to the rest of the house or I can go right to the edit bay, and I'm just turning right, you know; I just kept wanting to be with dad, and be with - and explore this, and process my grief in this way. So, that's how it started. And then I went from like grieving daughter to filmmaker. And I started to notice that everyone who walked in that room left it changed. And that's what you want as a filmmaker, right, you look for dramatic parts. Biggest changes were with mom and dad, you know, but everyone, anybody who visited, and, you know, everybody was - had their perspective on death changed. All the Zoom calls people, you know, came in there really scared and left there feeling somewhat comforted. And then of course, mom went from total denial [...] process that she was going to lose her partner of 54 years. She's begging him the night before to go to a facility, so that she can like, be with him, and stay with him, and he can stay there, you know, and he has to let her down that he's made his decision. But he was also I think, you know, feeling like he could help us more being outside his body. I feel like all he cares about, and I say that in the present because I do actually have pretty close to empirical evidence that he's watching, is to be outside as I wouldn't have believed that before that story I can [tell] you. But, you know, he believed solidly that, you know, you see in the film, we flash back to October 2020 and he thinks there's nothing after death. It's pure black, pure nothing. He died, He was absolutely sure he'd be watching us. And that he could put a protective shield around us or he wanted to put a protective shield around us. And I think that's partially because the veil was lifting, and he could see his family. I talk to a lot of people now in end of life work and who have had end of life experiences where loved ones have seen their family, or, you know, seen to the other side. So, I think the veil is actually right there, but we just can't see it till we get close to it - close to crossing ourselves. But anyway, so dad, dads are, you know, mom goes towards - from denial to facing it. And to really being able to be present with dad, like she's kind of dodging around the bed for weeks. And my sister and I, like, had two missions. One: get mom to face this before it's too late and spend time with dad. Two: get dad to realise that he's given us everything when he thought he had given us nothing, and that he had failed us because he lost his money and wasn't able to provide for us financially, and to realise that he taught us how to be good people, that he was the greatest example of humanity any of us had ever known. We managed to accomplish both goals. He, you know, he unburdens himself in that Viddui, the Jewish deathbed confessional, but that's after 15 days of hearing, and having reflected back on him, all of the love and support and guidance and wisdom that he had provided for us, not just his family, but our housekeeper when we were kids, the au pair crying saying he was the dad that she never had, you know, the first flight attendant who says that, you know, he's been her hero all her life and taught her how to be a leader. You know, it was just on and on and on. He realised, Oh my God, in the ways that really matter, I guess I really did do, I did some good things. You know, as Rachel says in the film, We're not perfect in this life, but you were good. And then he's able to actually admit and voice the shame he's carried for borrowing money from friends and being in a desperate position in life. And I think that's the biggest - that was the biggest impetus for me to share the film was like, you know, this idea that we walk around with all of this unnecessary shame and guilt and feelings of failure, all of us in this life, holding on to relatively inconsequential things. And to see dad actually go through that, and a man that great hold on to it till the last day and then be able to let go of it by voicing it, I thought was a lesson we all needed to have on how to live, really, you know, and what's most important in life, so...

Matthew Sherwood 28:57
Well, I mean...

Ondi Timoner 28:58 (29:08)
... that was like, that was the journey, and within two months, two and a half months, there was like, a feature film. Yeah, it was like, Oh, my God. And then I was like, What have I done? Like, this is crazy. So, I went to a film festival in Birmingham, Alabama, called Sidewalk Film Festival, where my [...] is the director, and she said, Do you have anything for me this year? I said, I think I might have a short about my dad. And then I called her back like, you know, two weeks later, I'm like, actually, it's a feature and I'm not done with it, but I'd love to test it in a secret screening with no title. Could I do that, and just sit in the back? And she said, Anything you want. And so, she put it on, on a Saturday afternoon for 100 people, and the reaction there is what convinced me, Okay, I'm on the right track, as dad said, and I need to put this film out. So, then we went to Rachel.

Matthew Sherwood 29:45
That's all amazing. I mean, just as a side note, have you ever done something like that before with a secret screening and just to test?

Ondi Timoner 29:54
No. I've done testing but never like foisted something this insane on people on a Saturday afternoon, you know, and when we saw it, like, Morgan and I were sitting in the back - my partner and I - who scored the film - and people - like, a few people stood up and left, like 10 minutes in, and she leaned over me, and she said, I think this was a terrible idea. And I leaned over to her, I said, well, at least it's in Birmingham, and we can leave it here. But it turned out those people were getting popcorn. They came back, and there was a standing ovation. People were like, the thing that really turned me on that was these 20 year old boys; like, these, like, kids, stood up at the back and they said, we now have a role model; like, we had never had a man we could emulate. And I felt, well, if nothing else, that's a good reason to put this film out. So, I raced back to LA and we finished it for Sundance.

Matthew Sherwood 30:52 (31:24)
Yeah, and I'm sure you've had plenty of people, and I'm not, you know, who've said, you know, who've kind of focused it's about, you know, a film about this man who's dying, but what's kept strike - what struck me throughout the whole thing was, as you've just said, it was all about how to live and what, what is important about life, and how we should - and how we live that life, and - I mean, did you know - I mean, you - obviously, he's your dad, and he had this powerful impact on you. But had you any inkling that he had had such an impact on all these people through the years?

Ondi Timoner 31:28
I did. There were testimonial dinners every year. Air Florida, which is this - this my mother just gave me, what she used to wear all the time. It's the logo of the company. And I've written a script about this. That's the other crazy thing, Matthew, is that the pages you see on the bed are [the] scripted version of this story, because the airline was so extraordinary. It had such a meteoric rise. And you see in the film, there's the route to London that they win, and they win that over a million petitions. Dad democratised the skies or did, you know, did a lot towards that. He put deregulation through Congress, so, he could charge like $41 to fly from New York to Miami, and then, like, London was like, 100 and something, you know, $118 or something like that. And he did it with such flair; like, the reason he was able to get all this petition signed or get bills passed was because he made the company like a family. You know, he led it lovingly, and with grace, He did everything with grace, you know; and he didn't try to be good. He just was good. And I don't know, I've never met anybody since like that. You know, to me, he was up there with like Buddha, Gandhi, you know, the grace. My whole life, I've been making films about visionaries. You know, in a way, I think I've just been chasing my dad, but they're always flawed. I made Brand: A Second Coming about Russell Brand, who I do think is a visionary, but he's very flawed, you know. And so, the movie is really about facing drugs, sex and fame and ultimately coming to find that one must go within to find true meaning in life. Or like Anton Newcombe from Dig! or Josh Harris from We Live in Public, it goes on and on the list. I mean, Mapplethorpe, Robert Mapplethorpe, my scripted film starring your countryman, Matt Smith.

Matthew Sherwood 33:25
Yeah.

Ondi Timoner 33:26
You know, they're all, like, these visionaries that I call impossible visionaries. They're, like, they're trying, you know, they see something we can't see at the time. And then they act impossibly trying to get to that goal, you know, and irrationally. And I just feel like, dad is that, but many people said to me, like, I was watching the film, and I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, because in your films, there's always a dark side.

Matthew Sherwood 33:49
Right.

Ondi Timoner 33:49
And there's no dark side with dad. How did you make a film about a person who's just good? And it's rare to see a film about a person who's just great, you know, but I think because the spectre of death is there, that it's still an absolute gripping film, because there's this countdown, and we're all going through this together. And the idea is you are, you know, we're peeling back the onion on Dad's life. He goes from being a disembodied voice to a man who's helpless in a wheelchair, you know, and you're, like, lowered into a bed in diapers, and you're just thinking like, this is going to be such a sad hour and a half, you know, and then he says [what he] wants to do to Donald Trump. And, you know, everything changes and, like, you realise, Oh, my God, this could be pretty entertaining. And he's just really funny, you know, through the whole thing, and I feel like but because we're counting - like, because you're falling in love with him, and you are being invited into this sacred private space to be part of our family and be by the bedside, you know, that it's still - it's possible to make a feature film about someone who's just good and not - and about death, that's good; like, not a - not - like a joyful experience as opposed to horrible violence, sudden death, which is all that we see in all our media all the time. So, that's, I think, what is really unique about the film, and certainly unique in my own films, you know, films that I've made. But Dad, yeah, I've always known he was great. They've had testimonial dinners. The former employees have celebrated him, even when he couldn't make it anymore. They would have reunions and pass them around on an iPad, on oxygen. He was on oxygen in his chair, and they were, you know, visiting with him and telling, you know, telling him that they had children because of him, and they met and fell in love because of him, and that they went off to Eastern to United and American and Delta, and that it was never the same after Air Florida, that was the only place that felt like a real, like, what a company is supposed to be, right; like, a corporation is supposed to actually be a group of people that go - unite towards a common goal. And the culture there was just so effortlessly incredible. So, they all learned and that many of them have gone on to be leaders and executives. So, he knew that, and I knew that, but he's somehow you know, I think especially the last few years, Matthew, were so tough, for them, you know, Covid was so isolating and was for all the elderly. And, you know, we couldn't as children go help them. You know, you see that footage of mom's birthday, and I have like a scarf on and glasses, you know, like, it was so hard for them. He just kept falling, he kept falling and falling on my mother. And my mother would have to like, [...] next to the bed and push him into the bed. You know, and there was no way to really help them. I brought my son, my own son would go, you know, he was the only one who's strong enough when my brother wasn't available, because he's an editor, you know, my son would run over there and pick his grandfather up off the floor, and by the end, he had to go get the neighbors because it was so heavy, you know, the dead weight. And he was gripping, as you saw in the end, his body was light as a feather. My son just said that - my son was in the Q and A in New York - and he just mentioned that the difference of the weight of dad was extraordinary. So, yeah; so, I think he just - he didn't realise by the end of his life that he had made such an impact, especially on us. He felt like he'd let us down.

Matthew Sherwood 37:30 (37:48)
Well, I mean, but at the same time - and another thing he's done for all of us is, and it's something you've alluded to, and also, I think maybe even mentioned, even sort of reference to those twenty somethings in Birmingham, is that in terms of role model, is that - I mean, what is it about a society, and it's certainly the case here in the UK, it's even worse, I think, but people just don't want to talk about death. It's something that we're - I mean, look, we don't want to talk about it, that's understandable, but it's just like, people are just such, it seems to me in such denial, you know, that this is going to happen, and it is a part of life. And so, it's...

Ondi Timoner 38:10
It's so scary. I mean, it still scares me, you know. The other day, I received an email, my brother and I, received an email from a cousin, Barbara Timoner. I don't know if she's still alive, but she's in Oregon, she was going to die. She wrote us to say that they found cancer through her abdomen and that she was terminal, and that Death with Dignity was going to help her with medical aid-in-dying, and that that was going to happen this week. And yeah, I mean, she - we were both - we were all rocked to the core of the concept of like, well - she thanked us for being part of her life, you know, and goodbye. And it's just the final goodbye is just so finite, right? It just feels so - that, you know, someone asked me in the Q and A the other night, like, how do we become less scared of this? And I think the way is to really take in, you know, and I can tell you that story if you want, about how I kind of know dad's watching, but just...

Matthew Sherwood 39:14
I would love to hear it actually.

Ondi Timoner 39:17 (39:17)
Sure. You can't really, like - I can't talk to dad. I mean, I talk - I can talk out loud to dad, sometimes. He's not really going to talk back to me, but sometimes I feel him around a little bit. But then I question it because I'm an agnostic person by nature, you know, sceptical. But basically, you know, my mom hasn't had any signs and it's really - she's grieved so hard; like, it's been really rough, and the film has helped her immeasurably. So, thank God for the film because I don't know if she'd be here, actually. And sharing with audiences has been so gratifying. She's coming with us to Washington on June 4th, and 5th, and 6th, to go and meet with congressmen and senators about medical aid-in-dying and screen the film for people of - you know, who represent us, and legislators, to talk about repealing the federal ban that exists since 1997 on medical aid-in-dying, so even if you live in a state that had - there're states in the US that have the right to die with dignity, if you have that, even if you don't have enough money, like you saw us pay for the medication, you can't afford to die, because Medicare and Medicaid are banned from covering it. So, beginning a conversation on a federal level, all of this, like, has helped keep my mom and, you know, and really sustained my mom, but she would love to just be with Dad. Like, that's ultimately what she's looking forward to. Like, I even took her down to his grave once and she, like, you know, lay down next to it, in preparation. Loves visiting the grave, and she's very, very comforted knowing that she will be there with him. One day, like, a few weeks ago, she was walking into her kitchen, she tripped over, like, a cart, and she fell on the floor. And she was carrying coffee grinds, and they, like, fell into her ear, and she didn't have any way to contact us or anything or to get up. So, she slid herself over to Dad's chair, which I've been trying to get her to get rid of, and move on for a while now. But anyway, she pulled herself up off that and onto her couch that you see in the movie, and dials me to say I'm not coming over to get that stuff. I fell, but I'm fine. And I said, Okay, well, I'll just - I'll have my assistant bring it to you. So, she expected, you know, this woman's voice as the gate - she hears the gate open, maybe 10, 15 minutes later, and instead it's this booming male voice and she's like, Oh, no, what, who is this? And it was Cooper, dad's caregiver, that you see in the film. She hasn't seen him in over a year, well over a year. And he said - he had a bag of pastries in his hand - he said, I was leaving the bakery, and Eli's voice came into my head, and he said, Go to Lisa. And I thought, Well, that's weird. I got in my car, and I was driving home and I was, you know, at a stop sign, and he said, Go to Lisa. I kept driving home. And then I was going to turn right and he said, Go to Lisa for the third time. And I turned left and I had to come over here and see if you were okay. And it was just like, that's so wild a story in my view. I have other great stories, but to me, that's the one that's like, how's that possible? You know, and that's exactly who he would call because he was trying to convince me to keep Cooper on to take care of mom after he died. That she needs help, and please keep Cooper and, you know, mom wasn't - Mom likes Cooper, but that wouldn't be - having Cooper would not be mom's choice, I don't think; so, I was like, well, that's gonna be up to mom, dad. So, I hadn't get Cooper on because mom didn't really need that or want that. So, it was really interesting, because that's exactly who he would have told. So, it makes me think he has eyes on his wife right now. Yeah. I also like, you know, there's that peacock at the end of the movie...

Matthew Sherwood 43:18
Right.

Ondi Timoner 43:18
... on the day he dies that I see that peacock showed up every day of Shiva when mom would pull up in her car to come and remember dad, that same peacock would be outside her car door, and then he would sit in my window when I was editing, which was really interesting, because he had never shown up till that day. And, you know, dad's - we talked about him being unflinching, and really - so, that was - I mean, that's a beautiful thing as well. And there's one more, there's one more, which is less - I don't know, less empirical. Not that the other one is empirical, but it's close. But this one is my mom's favourite story, which is that when I was locking the cut for Sundance, I was - I needed to like, stop - yeah, it's like we had to go to the mix. And I had eight pages of notes, sat down. The Avid for some reason wasn't saving, but it wasn't quitting, right. So, I went on for 18 hours straight. Morgan at some point went to bed. I was like, bye, goodnight. Seven in the morning, she shows up again and she finds me on my knees. I had been cutting and it crashed. And she said, What are you doing? I said, I'm praying. I tried everything. Everything to get it - all the tricks to get it to come back, and it was gone. And all of my, like, everything I'd done for 18 hours, which was 1000s of edits, were gone. And I was on my knees, like, praying to dad and I was like, Dad, I know this might be beyond your technical capacity, but you said you were going to watch over us and if you really are, I'm really, really tired, and I have to turn this into Sundance and I, you know, I've made a bunch of edits that I didn't note, and I don't want to forget them, but I will do everything again, if you can't do this, but if you could just - if you are watching and able to help in any way, please, you know, please do. And she said, Okay, well, hit the button, you know. So, I restarted it. And it literally, like, ground and whirred and swooshed and, like, made all these crazy sounds. And then all of a sudden, my sister giving that final sermon popped up on the screen. And then all of a sudden, everything else filled in. And then, there was nothing lost. Like, it was like, usually when - always when an Avid crashes, there's a saving in the Avid, but it's like five minutes earlier, or ten minutes earlier...

Matthew Sherwood 45:45
Right, right.

Ondi Timoner 45:45
... this was everything was back. And it was like, I called my mom, I woke her up, and I said, Mom, wake up. Dad, just like, saved the movie, and we have to go to his grave and thank him. So, she's like, Okay. So, I picked her up, and we went to dad, thanked him, and then I went to bed.

Matthew Sherwood 46:01
That's amazing. I mean, there's so much we - I, you know, I think we're just scratching the surface on so many things. And I think those are remarkable stories, and to even see, as you even document on camera, your father's own spiritual journey playing out, and now you're sharing with us some of yours. So, I mean, I also recognise I could talk with you for hours, I think, and it is a very poignant film for me for many reasons, and very personal reasons, but you've been talking about the reaction to this film, and I think, you know, I do want to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit more about what you are, your family's trying to do when you go to, certainly when you go to Washington, and what you're trying - what you're doing now with the film, basically.

Ondi Timoner 46:56 (46:58) + (48:23)
Thank you. Yeah. So, as I mentioned, Rachel was not necessarily a fan of putting this film out. She said, it's private, it's sacred, it should remain private. Also, Reform Judaism, you know, she's a Reform rabbi of the biggest Reform synagogue in New York, says life is a blessing not to be taken. At that point, you know, this is fall of 2021, and so, I called mom, what do you do? You know, so I called Mom, mom called Rachel asked her to at least get other opinions. You know, she showed it to her clergy. And they said, You have to let this into the world. Its healing power is too great. So, she took the plunge and allowed it to be shared. And even - she asked, you know, could you, maybe, when I help you hold the cup, I feel like somebody's going to freeze frame that and use it to take down my rabbinate. Can you at least like, maybe, find an angle where my hand is not on the cup helping you, help dad. And I looked for cameras, not a shot without her hand on the cup. So, I said, Rachel, I don't want, and I'm sure dad would not want, you know, to hurt your career in any way, so, I'll just cut all that. And she, you know, she came back to me and said, No, let it fly. So, we, you know, we're all nervous, we all congregated in Park City the night before the premiere, even though Sundance had been cancelled. We came together as a family anyway, because it was too nerve wracking, and we were too vulnerable, to not be together, and I thought, Oh my God, what have I done? Showing my family like this. And the reaction was so unbelievable that we stayed up till four in the morning, after the virtual screening, with emails coming in from around the country. Hundreds. Hundreds of posts, emails, it was, like, we - I would read one, then Rachel would read one, then I would read, like, and we were just sitting there like, oh my god; like, the gratitude that people had to finally have like, some kind of roadmap, at least some ideas, a guide, of how to let go of a loved one, how to send off a loved one; how to find closure yourself. You know, there were so many personal - you know, I've had friends - I have one friend who called his father, saw the movie at Sundance then we had a physical premiere at Telluride later that year. He went at Telluride. He's an executive in the film business. He called his father after crying in the movie and holding the hands of a stranger. They held their hands, the whole movie, he walked out and he called his father he hasn't talked to in 10 years and reunited with his father. You know, I've had people reunite with their mothers, I've had - it's just been unbelievable. People like totally changed their work-life balance because of the film, you know. People do Vidduis, they did - like my friend, Margaret Brown, the great filmmaker, she walked out of the screening and called her father who's not even on his deathbed and was like, Okay, we're gonna do this confessional thing now. I want you to talk to me about what you're ashamed about. I want you to be open, you know, like, it's just - yeah, it's just been - I've certainly as an artist, I've never made anything that even comes close to impacting people like this, and I've never seen anything quite like it. I almost feel like, you know, my mother said everything dies, doesn't it, Rachel? And she said, Yeah, but it changes form. Look what dad turned into. And I think the power has become across to us as a family, of what sharing our story has done for people. But there's one more step, you know, and so, we saw that Reform Judaism changed their opinion, specifically about medical aid-in-dying in Canada because they have equal access to health care in Canada. So, they have reversed their decision after millennia, in a very detailed opinion that Rachel quotes, and says that they say a law without tenderness is wickedness and that when the rabbis wrote the law, the average time of suffering was maybe five days, and now it's years. So, that it's no longer the case that life is a blessing at that point. It's much more reasonable and fair and compassionate, to allow a person who's terminally ill with less than six months to live to take their lives if they want to. One third of people who have this right and take - and get the medication, exercise their right to medical aid-in-dying, actually don't use the medication, just having it gives them a sense of power over their own bodies, that they have ceased to have, right, like, and I realised, somewhere along the way here, with people coming up and crying to me saying, my mother died of liver cancer in Florida, and I wish she had this right, but thank you, thank you so much for making this film. I know it's going to change laws, or, thank you because it's helped me heal, because oddly, people see their own families up there as they get to know ours. I don't know if that was the case with you. But it's a very interesting aspect of film that I'd never experienced before, where it's almost like imagination therapy, like, they can transpose their families and heal even if the death wasn't positive, or they weren't able to have this right, you know, or come together even as a family. So, anyway, enough of that had happened that when we were shortlisted for an Oscar and didn't make the nomination, apparently, close, but fear of death is a strong thing to fight - a lot of people watch it, you know, and didn't like, word of mouth is very strong, you should see this, even if you lost somebody, but people are like, No, I just lost somebody, you know. So, anyway, when that happened, you know, the distributors like, it's on Paramount Plus, it's on Amazon, off we go. And we just felt as a family, like, the work wasn't done. There's something, there's an opportunity here. We had Compassion and Choices, which is the largest organisation for end of life choices in America. Since its founding, one state has changed the law and allowed people this human right in their state. So, for 11 years, 11 states. Ten years, ten states, something like that. So, it's just a really effective legal advocacy group. They've said, it's the strongest tool ever, ever to argue for the right to die with dignity, because my father is so, you know, lovable, but also so clear in his choice. And so, unwavering in his choice, and our family comes round him. So, it's just kind of like, because sometimes the personal right can be the most political, I didn't intend it to be a political document, but it can be used very effectively for that. So, we raised some money, from a very generous foundation to have a couple of months of doing an impact campaign and seeing where that leads, to kind of get the film to all the organisations that need it. We've had calls from Wales, Scotland, London, you know, from organisations, death and dying organisations, national organisation, international organisation, death doulas, from Cedars Sinai Hospital, from Harvard Medical School. But, you know, like, there are so many places that want to screen this film with us there. And we are like, you know, what, as a family this was so transformative for dad, it gave him everything, it was such a gift. The only reason this film even is able to be a gift is because of the gift of medical aid-in-dying. So, we need to go and make sure that other people have this right in that - there's millions of terminally ill people in America and, you know, and around the world, multi-millions. And by the time you're terminally ill, you're fighting for your life or you're fighting to, you know, accept that you're dying and say goodbye to everybody. You can't become an activist, you know. So, I've become an activist - I mean, I don't think I've ever really - I've watched my sister get arrested like eight times, and I'm not planning to get arrested for this. But, you know, I've seen her just be an activist all my life. And I've thought, Well, I do my films, you know, the film, I support the film, I put it out there, and I move on to the next film, whether it's opioid solutions, or climate solutions, or, you know, the internet's impact on our lives, whatever it is, I'm like, You know what the film will do its work. But in this case, I feel like we can help. So, we partnered with Compassion and Choices, and we're taking the film to Nevada, where it's just about to turn, to New York State, which is - it's been there in front of the state legislator for eight years, and my sister is going up to Albany on May 22, to go and testify there. And we're going to show it through the summer and fall to try to get the law to pass there. You know, because if you're in New York, and you're dying, you can't drive over the bridge to New Jersey, where they do have the right, you have to be resident in New Jersey. And I will note that Vermont just changed their law. It's a huge, huge advancement for the cause. They just - they're allowing non-residents to come to Vermont now, which changes the game for people in New York. But still, again, if you can't afford to go to Vermont, and rent a place you can't die on a date of your choosing, and with your family around you. I mean, this allowed us to have our kids come home from college, you know, get this indispensable wisdom from dad, like, there were so many aspects that wouldn't have happened, if it wasn't for this right. So, yeah, we're taking it to Washington as a family. And we're going to try to, you know, make as much noise as we can, in partnership with Compassion and Choices and with allies we have in the government, to really see if we can move the needle here and get it into the hands of all the people, of the great people in end of life care that need to see it, and hopefully it will impact doctors and lawmakers and help everybody understand the nuances of this and that it is a basic human right. It's bodily autonomy, you know, why should the government come between you and your body. Doesn't make any sense.

Matthew Sherwood 57:10
And when you, when you cease being a activist in your newfound role, what's - I mean, because I - we are coming to the end of our time, unfortunately, but what is next for you after this?

Ondi Timoner 57:29 (57:29)
Well, this is why I'm really focused on this, but I'm actually - this project led to an incredible discovery. Thanks to my mom, many of the greatest things have come from my mom and dad. Mom cut out an article in the LA Times about a hospice for the homeless, the only one in the country. Yeah. And I thought, and it's called The INN Between, which I loved, INN, made it feel really homey, you know. I went to visit. It's in Salt Lake City, on my way to Sundance, and I found it to be the happiest place on earth in many ways. Such a - it needs to exist in every major city, it should be in every country. They provide also recuperative care so that if you have an operation, you don't go back out to the street and get infected. I found extraordinary characters in there. If it was clinical, or felt like a hospital, I wasn't going to be interested in that...

Matthew Sherwood 58:30
Right.

Ondi Timoner 58:30
... but it basically is, like, there's, like, pets running around. Like, it's amazing. So, I'm making a film called The INN Between that I'm shooting now. And I'm very excited about that project, and I'm unveiling the first footage from it at a fundraiser benefit in mid-June. So, I'm just finishing some piece for that. And then also, you know, those pages on the bed were the script of this film in the story, and what I mean by that is I didn't know I was making a documentary, but I had made a film about - I've written a film for eight years about - and since the beginning of my career had dreamt to tell dad's story of founding that airline, and then the stroke, and its impact on our family. And I don't know if you know, but Air Florida had a terrible crash in Washington on the Potomac River and all of that, and how that filtered through the minds of the children, and how my dad as a leader handled that, and - so, it's just a very dramatic, unbelievable story. And I was never gonna make a doc because I didn't have any archival footage except for what you see in the documentary is, like, 15, 20 minutes of stuff. So...

Matthew Sherwood 59:39
Yeah.

Ondi Timoner 59:40
... I was always gonna make a scripted film. So, I was glad I was filming. I was glad I was filming dad's deathbed because I was reading it to him every day to get his reaction. And I thought, Well, good thing I have cameras on for this. Course, I cut all that out of the documentary, but my dream is to make that film and, you know, it's a long road always towards making a scripted film but I've done - I really hope to be able to make that film. I've now incorporated the journey our family took in the - that you see in the documentary, sort of in the - into the scripted film as sort of a framing around it.

Matthew Sherwood 1:00:13
Right. Right.

Ondi Timoner 1:00:14
It's also called Last Flight Home. So, I really hope to make that as well.

Matthew Sherwood 1:00:18
Well, I have a feeling you will, but if in - certainly keep you in my thoughts, and hopefully that does happen. And I guess, be interesting who plays your dad, right? You get to make - you'll have a choice in name, you know, figuring out which actor gets to be - and who gets to play you. And these things.

Ondi Timoner 1:00:41
Yeah, I have some - I have some ideas in mind. I don't know if I'll say on this podcast. I will tell you, for those of you who are - know my work and loved We Live in Public, I am collaborating with a British production company on a three part sort of series that brings We Live in Public up-to-date.

Matthew Sherwood 1:01:02
Wow.

Ondi Timoner 1:01:02
And then I have a new film out called The New Americans that just premiered at South by Southwest that I had committed to before dad died. And so, I ended up making that film, but it's about, sort of, We Live in Public and the - you know, is about the loss of privacy and intimacy in the age of the internet. And it predicts where we are now in many ways behaviorally. But it felt like it needed an update given the insurrection and GameStop and all of that. So, it's about extremism, and about how organised online as either a hive mind or a mob. And it's had such an incredible reaction from the press as well. And so, I'm excited for that to come out, and for you guys to see The New Americans, which is literally the polar opposite of Last Flight. It's literally the other side of my brain, I guess. And then I'll say, I was gonna make a love story during the pandemic. So, I started documenting how people handled isolation and love. And I ended up happening upon people falling in love with AI chatbots, and I've been developing that and shooting that for three years. I ended up making the ultimate love story with Last Flight Home, but I am actually now, especially given ChatGPT and all the crazy, you know, AI news. So, it's time for me to release that film, which is called Soulmates. So, I'll be finishing that as well probably within the next year or two.

Matthew Sherwood 1:02:29
So, what do you do with all your copious amounts of free time? I mean, you...

Ondi Timoner 1:02:33
I have a garden! Take care of our dogs, but my favourite things are like taking out the trash, washing, walking the dog, riding my bike! Nothing to do with screens.

Matthew Sherwood 1:02:51
I think that's a good - another great lesson you can teach us, and I just want to thank you again. And if we haven't scared you off, I hope we have you on again with one of these other projects - doc projects...

Ondi Timoner 1:03:07
I'd love to come on.

Matthew Sherwood 1:03:07
... when they release. Yeah. And, well, no, thank you. No, thank you. You're a wonderful guest. And I just want to thank you again for coming on to the podcast. It's been very much appreciated you sharing this and your - this very opening, you know, to you and your family, because you all opened yourselves up to us. And it's a very poignant film. And just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with award-winning filmmaker, Ondi Timoner, director - you also are a writer, producer - I think you've got many credits on this one, but of...

Ondi Timoner 1:03:43
And I edited it.

Matthew Sherwood 1:03:43
... Last Flight Home. Yeah, and you edited it. That's right. Wasn't your brother, so...!

Ondi Timoner 1:03:49 (1:03:50)
I don't want to let this end without saying that my sister, in case she watches this, she has come so far behind this film. She's so happy it exists in the world. She really is. It's been one of the greatest healing - you know, that's her life is healing and helping people. She showed it at her temple for 550 people and crisscrossed the country showing it; so, I just wanted to make sure to say that. That was a big - that's an arc in and of itself is Rachel's journey with us.

Matthew Sherwood 1:04:20
Yes. A big shout out to Rachel because I think - because what would this film have been without her, right. You know, I mean...

Ondi Timoner 1:04:27
I don't think - I don't - yeah, I don't know that there would have been a film.

Matthew Sherwood 1:04:30
Exactly. Exactly.

Ondi Timoner 1:04:32
Yeah, a lot. A lot of - thank God, we had a rabbi in the family. I highly recommend convincing your siblings to become rabbis!

Matthew Sherwood 1:04:43
I'm gonna have a hard time of doing that in mine, but that's another story. Well, Ondi, thank you so much. It was great to have you on, and best of luck with everything; and look forward to the next conversation.

Ondi Timoner 1:04:55
Good luck to you. Thanks a lot.

Matthew Sherwood 1:04:56
Thank you. Thank you. I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:05:40
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specialising in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk