Who is Stan Smith?

Who is Stan Smith? A tennis legend, humanitarian, and... a shoe!

Before Djokovic or Federer, McEnroe or Borg, there was Stan Smith. A brilliant player, his success on the tennis court in the ‘70s led to Adidas naming its now iconic tennis shoe after him. 

If you were to look at trends around the name, you’d come across terms like Adidas Stan Smith Blue or Adidas Stan Smith all white or any of the combination of his name and a color.

But there is much more to Stan Smith than tennis success and shoes. For though he set out to be the best, in the end that wasn’t enough. He wanted to do good as well.

Join Matthew Sherwood as he discusses the new UNINTERRUPTED documentary Who is Stan Smith? with its director, Danny Lee. They discuss the sacrifice Stan Smith made to improve conditions for his fellow tennis players, the help he gave to South African author, Mark Mathabane, and what happened when Stan went behind the Iron Curtain to play the controversial Romanian superstar, Ilie Nastase.

Who is Stan Smith? is a feelgood film about the man who is most known for the shoe, but who deserves far greater recognition for his humility, kindliness, and self-giving. Find out more with Matthew Sherwood and Danny Lee on Factual America.

“... the moral of the tale is, it's not necessarily all about winning... It's like the longer lasting impacts you can have on humanity... [Stan Smith is] just a wonderful human being. And I think he's a testament of the possibilities of what we can all do [when] we try to do good.” – Danny Lee

Time Stamps

00:00 – Introducing Danny Lee, writer, director, and producer of Who is Stan Smith?
01:08 – Who is Stan Smith, the man?
02:24 – What is Who is Stan Smith? about
03:40 – How Danny Lee got involved with the film
05:37 – Stan Smith’s background
11:00 – The Adidas Stan Smith shoe
12:21 – One reason why Stan Smith helped Mark Mathabane, and the Battle of Bucharest
16:29 – Why Danny chose not to include Ilie Năstase in the film
17:18 – Stan Smith’s humility
20:56 – The enjoyment, and challenge, of making Who is Stan Smith?
23:54 – How life is about the impact you make rather than the wins
24:25 – Who is Stan Smith’s future distribution
24:58 – Danny on his shoe related films
28:13 – What shoes are, and what they mean
29:00 – Danny’s next project
30:51 – Danny’s experience of making a narrative film
31:51 – The difference between making a documentary and narrative film
33:46 – Does Danny have a preference between making a documentary or narrative film

Resources

Who is Stan Smith
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Danny Lee

Website
IMDb
Twitter

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 112: Who is Stan Smith?

Danny Lee 00:00
Hi, I'm Danny Lee. I directed and produced Who is Stan Smith? I'm also the founder of BIPOC production company, CALICO.

Matthew Sherwood 00:08
Welcome to Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome Danny Lee, the award-winning director of Who is Stan Smith? The film is the story of a tennis icon now better known for the shoe he endorsed, beginning in the early 1970s. But as Danny points out, Stan Smith's legacy is about something far greater than tennis or fashion. Danny Lee, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Danny Lee 00:41
Everything's well, I... Yeah, this morning, I got my kids to school on time. So, it's a good day.

Matthew Sherwood 00:48
Excellent.

Danny Lee 00:48
It is.

Matthew Sherwood 00:51
I hear where you're coming from. And a big - well; so, thanks again for coming onto the podcast. Also, congratulations on completing your film. And I gather - it's Who is Stan Smith? - is it premiering at DOC NYC, is that right?

Danny Lee 01:08
It is premiering at DOC NYC. November 9. We're excited because Stan's story has been sort of sitting in gestation forever, right. Like, it's not often you get to tell someone's story while they're still alive, right, that's iconic and legendary. Stan is this elder statesman in tennis.

Matthew Sherwood 01:31
Yeah.

Danny Lee 01:31
... who's done so much for the sport, but often, you know, people know him for the tennis shoe, right. It's actually the original tennis shoe. It's funny when people call shoes, tennis shoes, when they're really not. But it's kind of the original tennis shoe, if you will. Well...

Matthew Sherwood 01:46
So...

Danny Lee 01:47
... Rod Laver's was to be specific. But, anyway.

Matthew Sherwood 01:51
So, you've answered that question about who, you know, the film, the title of the film, Who is Stan Smith? You've answered that question. The iconic tennis star, and an endorser of an iconic shoe; but, as we often ask our guests, I mean, I'll ask that question again, who is Stan Smith? But in this case, what is Stan Smith the movie? What is it about? Give us a synopsis. Because it's more than just about Stan Smith, the tennis player.

Danny Lee 02:24
For sure. You know, in sort of excavating and doing research on Stan, right; like, I, like most other people, instantly thought about the shoe, and the shoe had like, even through high school and everything, and always sort of there. And always this sort of premium thing that everyone aspired to have. So, Who is Stan Smith? is essentially, the thesis of the film, who is the man behind the shoe that we've all heard of, right. And initially, I went into it thinking it might be a sports biopic of a superstar athlete who went on to achieve greatness, right. But, as we went through this process, it became this unexpected journey for, from late tennis bloomer to a collegiate superstar, to Wimbledon Champion, and number one in the world, to this unexpected fashion icon and humanitarian. For me, the story is really very much about this athlete who is obsessed with being the best, and sort of stumbled upon and discovered his own humanity through the process.

Matthew Sherwood 03:31
Wow. And so, how did you - was this your idea? How did you become involved?

Danny Lee 03:40
I was fortunate enough - I had a meeting with the Spring Hill Company, which is LeBron James' and Maverick Carter's company, with these two executives named Phil Byron and Camille Maratchi, who are incredible partners, and they were talking to me about another project. And it didn't feel right for me just because it was a long - it was, like, a two season sort of commitment. But it was great creative, and I just - at the time, I couldn't commit to that. But we hit it off, and they were saying, Well, what about these two projects? We have one about boxing for a specific place that's already picked up. And we have this other one that we want to deficit finance. I'm like, What's the other one? And they're like, Stan Smith. And my eyes lit up. This coincided with me just having picked up tennis for the pandemic. I'd never played tennis before. And I started playing, and the joy you get on walking on a court; so, like, it just felt serendipitous. It felt like it was just right. And I'd lead to, and I said - excuse my language - I said, Fuck yes, I'm doing that.

Matthew Sherwood 04:49
Thank goodness you did, and - you and I both; I mean, I did play a little bit as a kid but I hadn't picked up a racket in years, and, yes, I started playing tennis during the pandemic.

Danny Lee 05:00
Yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 05:00
Had a court just around the corner. So, it just brought a lot of - that and your film has brought back a lot of great memories of an interest - I find a very entertaining and compelling era of tennis.

Danny Lee 05:16
For sure.

Matthew Sherwood 05:17
And maybe you can tell us - so, maybe let - on that note, let's go back to Stan Smith, the tennis player. I mean, as you say, most people just only know him really for the shoes, but how big a deal was he? Maybe, you know, I think a lot of people don't really realize that he was the real deal.

Danny Lee 05:37
He was the real deal. You know, his story is interesting, because it traverses the most formative inflection point in tennis, right. The, I guess, before the Open era. And I won't get into this really complicated explanation, but you probably don't want that, either, but basically, at the time, Stan was, you know, he was this wunderkind, you know, he started late, there was all this buzz about him, and he became the number one player in the world. He was just dominant. He was a tall guy. He was big. He was a power player. And, you know, at the time, he was sort of the leading American player as well, next to Arthur Ashe; they were really close friends. And, but what really made, you know, Stan stand out, and you'll see in the film, is the stuff he did off the court. You know, there was - he won Wimbledon in '72. The year after most champions defend their crown, it's very rare that you can win again, and he boycotted Wimbledon, to sort of unionize tennis. And so, what he did for the sport, what he did for people in general, really, again, made him stand out. So, you know, I didn't live in 1970. I wasn't born then. Or in 1972. But, you know, from all of our firsthand accounts of people that were there, and his friends and family, of course, he was a huge deal. And that's why Adidas, a German company, came to him to take over this shoe.

Matthew Sherwood 07:22
I mean, back to the point about what he meant for tennis; I mean, in the film you've got, I mean, John McEnroe is not in the habit of giving out compliments to people, and I think he - begrudgingly - but says about other things, but on this, he certainly said no player, I believe it's something to the effect of no player has done more for the game than what Stan Smith did by actually being in that ATP boycott of the '73 Wimbledon. So, it's quite - I mean, I guess what - I mean, what I took away from it is a reminder that, you know, tennis went from being this supposedly kind of amateurish, very upper class kind of sport. And, you know, the changes that are all happening - and your film touches on a lot of things that were going on in the '60s and '70s, and even obviously up to the current day, but just, you know, what they did to the sport, and brought it into the modern era, basically. And he made sacrifices, because he, you know, we all tend to track how many singles - you know, Grand Slams, players have won, and he probably could have won a good number more if he hadn't, you know, who knows; you know, with...

Danny Lee 08:41
He did win the - he won a bunch of doubles.

Matthew Sherwood 08:45
Right.

Danny Lee 08:46
... Grand Slams. But yeah, he, you know, I'd like to think, and I think anyone can attest, that he laid the foundation for modern tennis, right. Especially what he did with the ATP and, of course, Rod Laver and everyone else involved. But, you know, he, I think proves, I think what comes out of - what we - I guess the moral of the tale is, it's not necessarily all about winning, right? It's like the longer lasting impacts you can have on humanity. And, as maybe, I don't want to sound too earnest, but like, once you meet the man, he's just a wonderful human being. And I think he's a testament of what the possibilities of what we can all do. We try to do good.

Matthew Sherwood 09:35
Well, I think that's - I mean, you know, your film tracks this incredible story arc that is his life. And, you know, yes, and there's obviously the, as you mentioned, the shoes, and Adidas [A-dee-das] or, as they say over here, Adidas [Adi-das], were, you know, keen to, you know, get, you know, they wanted to break into the US and they signed him on, but it's, as you've said, it's really his legacy is about so much more. And, as you touch on the film, the friendship with Arthur Ashe, and again, it's hard to, for someone my age, it's hard to maybe appreciate this, but there's probably a lot of people out there who don't even really know who Arthur Ashe is, but...

Danny Lee 10:20
That's for sure.

Matthew Sherwood 10:20
... but what he meant for the game, and for beyond the game, and they both were men who valued friends and family, certainly. And I think - is what you were saying about what we can do for, you know - I think as even at the end, not to spoiler alert, but you've got people like, you know, rappers from Run DMC, and other places saying that, you know, it's the fact that he is this everyman, unassuming, very humble person that makes him into this sort of superhero of sorts, isn't it?

Danny Lee 11:00
Right. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. I don't know if this is coincidental, but it sort of runs parallel with the shoe, right; like, the shoe is somewhat - it looks beautiful, but it's unassuming, hasn't changed much over the years. And it seems like everyone can wear 'em, it's unisex. And it just kind of represents him in many ways, right.

Matthew Sherwood 11:25
Yeah.

Danny Lee 11:26
And I love what DMC says at the end, which I won't spoil, but he kind of summarizes it perfectly.

Matthew Sherwood 11:31
And I think another thing that illustrates - because the thing I didn't know anything - I mean, not that I know that much about Stan Smith, but the one thing I was completely unaware of, and I think that what illustrates all this is this whole story with - maybe we won't give away too much - but with Mark Mathabane, you know, that's an incredible story. I mean, you know, this South African author who, to a large part owes his life and success, and what he's achieved to people like Stan Smith and Arthur Ashe as well, but it's not like Stan goes around trumpeting this, and I'm sure there's probably more stories like this, that you probably were tempted to put in the film, but you only have - only have 90 minutes.

Danny Lee 12:21
You only have 90 minutes, right. You know, Stan with Mark Mathabane, who is this rising South African tennis player. Stan and him - you know, there's this chance encounter, and Stan probably saw something in Mark, he might have had - you know, we talked about this. There may have been some guilt. He talks about this in the film of feeling like he didn't support Arthur enough in certain causes at the time, not because he didn't agree with the causes, but, you know, when you're raising a huge family, you don't have infinite time, right. And so, maybe Mark represented a bit of Stan's ability to redeem that feeling he may have had. But he can speak to that himself. But it was an unexpected story. I did not expect that at all. And I think Stan's story was interesting and challenging as a filmmaker, because there's not a lot of internal drama and conflict, right. Like, he didn't have substance abuse issues, he didn't experience a lot of death except for, of course, Arthur. So, it was sort of trying to identify where a lot of the tension in the story laid. And so, early on, you know, my team of producers - shout out to Rebecca Halpern and Blake Bruns, who were very obviously contribute - they helped immensely - it was obvious that we had to kind of take this inside/outside world approach where, you know, because, like, Stan, he's nothing like Forrest Gump. But in many ways - like, Forrest Gump found himself in the middle of these, like, historical events, right, and Stan in a very similar way did, too. He's playing in the middle of the Vietnam War, he's playing during the height of apartheid in South Africa. He's playing during this huge - this moment in tennis, where it went open. And so, all these different things. And so, it felt like, why would we ignore sort of the context of history? Let's lean into it, and it informed the drama of every moment, right. So, that was a challenge though. I mean, you know, the bulletin board of index cards moved. Every few days we're like, how does this - and there were a lot of stuff that got left on the cutting room floor; like, there's an amazing moment it's called Battle of Bucharest, where Stan goes into Bucharest, which was behind the Soviet curtain, right, during the height of the Cold War, and he's playing Năstase, and, you know, there are people throwing stuff at him and they're, you know, like the Yankees are in town, and I wanted so bad include it because it's such a memorable scene and we still have the edit. But, you know, you have to kill darlings. That's how it goes.

Matthew Sherwood 15:21
All right, well, hold that thought. We're gonna give our listeners an early break here. So, we'll be right back with Danny Lee, the award-winning director, and writer as well, is that writer and producer?

Danny Lee 15:35
Writer and producer.

Matthew Sherwood 15:36
Yep. Who is Stan Smith? Premiering at DOC NYC on November 9, and we'll ask Danny, after the break, where - if he does know - where you might be able to see this, if you can't make it to DOC NYC.

Factual America Midroll 15:51
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 16:11
Welcome back to Factual America. Here with Danny Lee, the director of Who is Stan Smith? Premiering at DOC NYC on November 9. We're talking about stuff that you had to leave on the cutting room floor, you - by the way, did you try to interview Năstase? Because that would have been interesting.

Danny Lee 16:29
Yeah, we were - oh god, I would have. I spoke to him. We were texting, and then we started looking. We obviously did a deeper dive into any possible scandals, and he'd said some really wrong stuff. And we're like, there's no way we're gonna put this guy, give him a platform. So...

Matthew Sherwood 16:47
Okay.

Danny Lee 16:49
Yeah. I mean, he would have made sense. He would have - he was the villain in the film.

Matthew Sherwood 16:53
Yeah.

Danny Lee 16:53
However, again, we can't condone some of the stuff he said.

Matthew Sherwood 16:57
Okay. Because, yeah, well, he was a villain in real - you didn't even have to make him...! I'm old enough to remember him as a tennis player. And yeah, I think he was a villain then as well.

Danny Lee 17:11
He felt like a character out of Superman. From the '80s. Like, just that.

Matthew Sherwood 17:18
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, you were saying how, you know - I mean, yes. I guess for some people Stan Smith, you know, as you say, there's not a lot of Sturm und Drang. I mean, he's like, he's this great guy, and everyone loves him, and you've leaned into the history element of it to bring some of that conflict to life. But did he - I mean, how was he as - strikes me, would he have been - was he reticent about making a film about his life? Seems to me, he might have said, well, you know, he's, as we know, he's a humble and unassuming fella.

Danny Lee 18:03
Yeah. No, it was exactly that. And by the way, just because a story doesn't have a ton of conflict and tension, who says we can't have a feelgood movie. Like, that was actually my pitch. I want to make people feel good, and really feel. And I think we've achieved a very emotive film. He, at first, he, you know, he had a book that preceded this called, Some People Think I'm a Shoe, which is very inappropriate title. And so, I think he was sort of warming up to the idea, right, that book came out, I believe, in 2019. And so, but this, you know, the book is very thin on actual story. It's more of like an oral history of meeting people, sort of conjecture on a sneaker. He was, you know, when we met, I think he just told me, he's like, Does anyone care? Why would anyone care? And that just struck me. I'm like, Stan, people care. Like, you are Stan Smith. And it's not a facade. Like the man is just incredibly humble. Like, anyone can walk, he'll spend thirty minutes speaking to a stranger. And it's totally authentic. And I think he represents a sort of personality almost of a bygone era, right. It's the true gentleman who is patient and really interested in what you have to say. And that seems to be a surprise these days of the celebrities like that.

Matthew Sherwood 19:43
Yeah. I mean, in a different way, but we had the filmmakers who did the recent Nolan Ryan doc, and kind of reminds - you know of similar generation; similar, maybe because, I don't know, is Stan Smith on - does he have a smartphone? Maybe he's not as distracted as so many of us are, you know?

Danny Lee 20:04
Yes! Yes. The text is really big.

Matthew Sherwood 20:10
Well, he is - he's, what, in his late 70s now, but - this strikes me that it was also, as you said, a feelgood film, and feelgood films - you say, you know, I don't think it does, but I can imagine with somebody who says if something's a feelgood film that might strike them as being, I don't know, fluffy or soft, but it's anything but. I found it very - emotive is the word you use, and I thought that was excellent way of describing it. And I found it quite - there's some very poignant and very emotional scenes, maybe subtly so but just the - I think that part of Stan comes, certainly comes out in the film. But it strikes me this is a really fun film to make.

Danny Lee 20:56
It was fun and feelgood, you're right. Maybe that terminology is imperfect, I think more of like, it's a sensory film, right. It's meant to make you feel the emotions and relate to certain things. And, you know, it's not - well, I will leave it at that. Making the film was incredibly fun, right. I mean, meeting Stan, meeting his family, and meeting everyone. Donald Dell is a riot. Donald Dell, if you don't know, he's Stan's agent. He was Michael Jordan's original agent who got Michael Jordan his first two Nike deals. He is a kingpin. He is the originator of sports endorsements, you know. So, just kind of immersing myself in that universe was incredibly fun. Shooting during the pandemic's never easy. Getting your nose, getting your brain stabbed every two days, on pins and needles hoping that no one catches it, which no one did the whole time. But it was really fun, it was really gratifying to make it. It was grueling, for sure.

Matthew Sherwood 22:07
Yeah.

Danny Lee 22:08
Yeah. Because we were on a tight schedule.

Matthew Sherwood 22:12
Yeah. But you've got cool archive in there. You've got, you know, some stuff - I mean, someone's definitely done their job, because you've even gotten - I mean, I guess, it's not to be unexpected, but you got some nice archival stuff that shows, you know, Stan in his early days, and his wife, and, you know, and - like you said, it's not just Stan, you've got these tennis stars, who are still around, who are able to talk about - I mean, I guess you could have gotten Laver on there. I guess you could have gotten some others. But I mean, it's still - it's quite amazing. Because that window's closing, obviously. So - I don't know, I think it's just a really, it's an interesting era. And it's not just a '60s, '70s, '80s pic. I mean, it covers everything. So, but - No, it's a very - it's, you know, it's fun. It's fun, and yet, it's also very, like you said, I think it does make you think, and I think you - again, not to have a spoiler - but I think that's what it all gets to at the end of the film, isn't it, as you've mentioned, more than once already, that it's, at least what Stan would probably want us to talk about, is that it's not him as a tennis player, it's not him as a, as someone who people think is a shoe but is well, I'll say it, he, you know, it's his legacy is going to be something bigger and different than tennis and fashion.

Danny Lee 23:54
Right. Right. It's not all about the wins on the board, people. It's about sort of the impact you have, and try to make it a better place because let's face it, like every day in the news, it's rough. It's rough.

Matthew Sherwood 24:10
And he's very quiet about it. But he does mention, you know, he's a man of faith, right. So, that's something that's also informed him, his life, and how he's lived it. So...

Danny Lee 24:23
Absolutely, yeah.

Matthew Sherwood 24:25
Yeah. Well, I mean, thanks again for making this film. I think it's - really enjoyed it. I mean, you're in the very early days, so, you're getting a premiere at DOC NYC. Where else is it going to be showing? Do you know yet?

Danny Lee 24:41
We don't know. I mean, it premieres there. And from there, it'll be on some stream or TBD. There's obviously interest from private parties, but it's a little bit over my head at the moment. So, I let the folks that do the selling take care of that.

Matthew Sherwood 24:58
And so, you've got both a scripted and a doc background, quite interesting and varied, but what's - I mean, it's not your first one that has a shoe theme, is it? I mean, I think you did...! But you've got a few shoe - do you have a shoe fetish? I don't know!

Danny Lee 25:20
Yeah, I was terrified you would ask that. It's weird. I don't know why that has happened. Maybe one led to another, that led to another, and it's all very unintentional. I don't have a crazy shoe collection. I do have certain ones that I really covet, because they represent art to me. And they represent - they're time capsules, right. They represent an era. And I think that's what sneakers are all about. It's about the art. It's about the history. It's about the culture. Yeah, I happen to do a few sneaker documentaries. One was called 30 for 30 on the shoe store. One was a 30 for 30 on this shoe store, called Friedmans Shoes, that specialized in size 12 and up, for big guys who needed fancy shoes, and it was, like, the place to go in Atlanta in the '80s and '90s. We had Shaq in it. And it would - but it's really at the end of the day - it's a story about a family business that's struggling to survive at the dawn of ecommerce, right. I did a couple of Nike documentaries, one about the Air Max sneaker, and another one about the Dunk sneaker.

Matthew Sherwood 26:26
Right.

Danny Lee 26:26
And the Dunk sneaker, particularly, it was this, like, again this sneaker that united a bunch of different subcultures. And that's what made me really interested in it, because that's what I - as you can see, like, I've grown up in many different subcultures from hip-hop, graffiti, skateboarding, et cetera. And for me, that's what always makes it interesting, is how do I find the humanity and the culture and the stories; so, I don't - I'm not a quote unquote, sneakerhead. I'm not a huge sneaker enthusiast. I like sneakers, but I got a mortgage. I got mortgages to pay. I'm not wasting my money like that. Nor is my closet big enough.

Matthew Sherwood 27:04
No, no, it's - don't worry about it, I wasn't trying to - and you don't have to apologize. But I think - no, it just - you know, it was interesting one if you're scanning the IMDb profile and the like, you know, but we've had - I mean, there was one that premiered at South by a few years ago that was the one about a British based doc actually on Michael Jordan, A Man and his Shoes, you know, on Air Jordans. And, you know, there's a lot of - it's interesting, and I think, in the Stan Smith film as well, like you said, these different subcultures that I hadn't quite really - I mean, yes, I remember the Adidas song by Run DMC, but I hadn't put that together with Stan Smith, right, you know, and I hadn't - and you've got the Beastie Boys, and you've got Pharrell Williams in there, and you've got some of this other stuff - the things that have happened, recently. And, you know, I'm not as bad as Stan. I know, It's Jay-Z, and not Jays, but, you know, I mean, it's an interest - it is interesting. And it is an interesting phenomenon.

Danny Lee 28:13
Shoes are inanimate objects. It feels materialistic, but that's not what it's about, I guess, right. It's about things. It's a commonality you have with someone. It's a shared experience, or whatever; we all remember, I remember growing up and having my Nike Delta Forces and just beating those up to death. So, yeah, shoes are just shoes. I think it's what's behind the shoe, and it's really about how you relate to people.

Matthew Sherwood 28:39
So, you're probably going to - since I've now asked this - you probably going to try to avoid doing another shoe related doc but - or no, keep it going, you're doing well with it. But what's - what do you have in the - what's on the cards for you, after Who is Stan Smith?

Danny Lee 29:00
Not a shoe documentary, that's for sure. Unless, you know, what's funny, we were considering another one with Nike that ultimately didn't pan out, but probably for the best because I've been making a strong transition into scripted, right. So, my next project is - I can't say too much about it, because it's not announced yet, but it's a true story, it's a crime drama that takes place in the world of the Chinese underworld in Manhattan's Chinatown in the world of the triads, the tong, and the street gangs. Nina Yang Bongiovi, who produced Fruitvale Station, Dope, Sorry to Bother You, etc. She's producing it. She's an incredible producer with great taste. And so, my head's down, as my head has been down, in that, which we should be making, hopefully 2023. I'm also in the midst of directing two music feature docs. One is for HBO. The other is for TBD. They're both fairly iconic music artists. And music's always been my one number one; you know, it's always been something I grew up with, and so, really excited about those, because they're very much follow docs, too.

Matthew Sherwood 30:26
Well, congratulations. I mean, is there a particular reason why you're - I mean, you're also - what is it about - I mean, because, you're not the, you know, some people do this; so, you're moving to scripted. I mean, there tends to be this dichotomy. People that do docs, or they do scripted, and they don't tend to mix, but what's moving you in that direction?

Danny Lee 30:45
I don't think I'm moving in that direction. I think I'm expanding my - opening my aperture.

Matthew Sherwood 30:51
Yeah.

Danny Lee 30:51
Terrible pun. But I really am, I mean, like most documentarians, we started out wanting to write a script and all that, and I actually already directed a feature for Lionsgate a while ago. It was a few years ago, it was a comedy. Wasn't exactly my sort of fare, but it was a good experience in getting my hands dirty in a scripted film and understanding that process. But I've always been both, and I don't - and it is a little frustrating, I think, for a lot of documentarians, when they get pigeonholed as only being able to do one thing. Whereas a lot of the times a scripted filmmaker can dip into a documentary, put their name on it, hire a bunch of staff, and sort of just conduct interviews, right. And fellow documentarians know, it's a process. It's very rigorous. And it's very different from scripted. But at the end of the day, we're all telling a story.

Matthew Sherwood 31:51
Yeah.

Danny Lee 31:51
And I think the difference is being able to manage different configurations of crew, being able to really get the emotional core out of your actors. So, I just think I'm doing both, and I always will do both. So, yeah. So, all my fellow documentarians, you know, like, don't let anyone tell you, you can only do documentaries. That's bullshit.

Matthew Sherwood 32:15
Well, and I think, yes, I would have - well, I'm not a documentarian. But I would do - I would hope that that is definitely the case that people would do, do expand. I mean, what we see is, I mean, in doing this podcast, I mean, it's not even just about pigeonholed as a documentarian. But you become true crime guy, or gal or, you know, you know, or you're music, you only do music docs, or, you know. I mean, that's not always the case. There's some people who're able to run the gamut. But it is this - I guess, it's just human nature trying to pigeonhole people. But I think in any industry, really.

Danny Lee 32:53
It's usually the agents. You can blame the agents, usually, with a stack of resumes, you're the crime guy, et cetera. But, no, I mean, the agents have a very difficult job of, like, trying to get you your next project, right. But I do think crime is a very specific thing, right. And having relationships with detectives and all that, I see that. I don't - I think the hardest jump for people to make is length of time, right. Being able to tell a story over 90 minutes versus compressing it to half an hour. But at the end of the day, if you're good, you should be able to tell any story, because I really do believe you should be exploring stories that you're curious about. If your curiosity is operating at a high level, then you're in the right place. If you're not curious about something, you're not in the right project.

Matthew Sherwood 33:46
And you've done a lot of shorts, too. Do you have a - I mean, is that - do you have a preference? Or is it just kind of whatever is necessary to tell the story, whether it's scripted or narrative? I mean, or a doc.

Danny Lee 33:58
It's a great question. It's a great question. I just don't believe in a pre-conceived, total running time, scripted or non-scripted doc; like, the project that I'm doing with Nina, the crime drama; originally, I was looking at it as a doc. And I started getting into research, and I'm like, this is an incredible universe....

Matthew Sherwood 34:24
Yeah.

Danny Lee 34:25
... that we should make into a scripted film. And then we should turn this into a TV series, which is all - is what we're talking about now. So, I think the story dictates the medium, honestly.

Matthew Sherwood 34:40
And I guess with also, with streaming, we're not as beholden as we were before with 30, 60, 90 those numbers.

Danny Lee 34:51
Right. It's amazing. It's a great time, and no, it's a great time, really. Yeah. Even though, yeah, there's so much out there that, like, the marketing dollars oftentimes get sucked up by the tent poles but, you know.

Matthew Sherwood 35:05
What I was going to say - we were talking earlier, and I was gonna say, I was admiring your office and your display behind you, maybe one day, and if we haven't scared you off, I'd love to talk to you - have you back on when you - when those music docs drop, and maybe you'll have - we had one guest who, though he claims it was his wife who did it, but it was his Emmy was what, you know, displayed right there on the shelf behind him. So...!

Danny Lee 35:38
I can't blame the guy. I don't have an Emmy.

Matthew Sherwood 35:42
You can't blame him. Yeah, you know, well, you know, it's only a matter of time. But, soon, yeah. So, Danny, it's been a pleasure having you on. Thank you again for coming on to the podcast, and we'd love to have you back. And just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with Danny Lee, the director and producer of Who is Stan Smith? Premiering at DOC NYC on November 9, and be on the lookout for it, I'm sure it will be streaming somewhere near you in the not too distant future. Danny, take care.

Danny Lee 36:20
Thanks, Matthew.

Matthew Sherwood 36:23
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 37:04
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk