Killer Sally
Sally McNeil killed her husband, Ray; but was it an act of self-defence or pre-meditated murder?
That is the question at the heart of Killer Sally, a new three-part docu-series by Nanette Burstein, now showing on Netflix.
Sally and Ray were a power couple in the truest sense of the word – both were bodybuilders. But Ray took his training to extreme levels, using steroids to increase his muscle growth. And according to Sally, it was during a ‘roid rage’ on St. Valentine’s Day in 1995 that he lost his temper and tried to kill her before she shot him. Signs were there in the bodybuilding couple's rocky marriage.
The prosecution at Sally’s trial portrayed her as a bully. But as Nanette explains, Ray was an abusive husband. So, while Sally was not an innocent victim, her husband not only abused her but also their children.
The children’s lives were shattered by what happened. Since then, they have sought to break the cycle of abuse that began even before their mother and father met.
Among the topics discussed by Nanette and Matthew are how Nanette handled interviewing Sally’s son, the seedy side of female body building, points of connection between Sally McNeil, Hilary Clinton and Tonya Harding, and the difficulties faced by women who are trapped by domestic violence perpetrated against them. And of course, we see the media frenzy behind the event.
Join Nanette and Matthew as they lift the lid on an infamous moment in body building history; a case that remains both relevant and compelling nearly thirty years later. Definitely a Valentine's day murder that will interest people for years to come.
“... one out of every three women globally, is the victim of physical and or sexual violence by an intimate partner... we sweep it under the rug, you know, and I think that Sally's case definitely sheds light on the fact that we need to revisit how we judicially and socially deal with domestic violence cases.” – Nanette Burstein
Time Stamps
00:00 - Trailer for Killer Sally
01:55 – Introducing Nanette Burstein, this episode’s guest
03:50 – Nanette’s synopsis for Killer Sally
05:28 – Was Nanette able to really get to know Sally McNeil?
07:58 – How the McNeil’s children are overcoming the cycle of abuse
12:07 – How Nanette handled interviewing the McNeil’s now grown up children
13:27 – What Nanette discovered about bodybuilding in making Killer Sally
16:41 – The effect of being the children of bodybuilders and an inter-racial family in the 1980s
17:56 – The challenge of being a female bodybuilder
19:57 – Nanette’s experience of true crime docs, and the need to raise the issue of domestic violence towards women
23:17 – Thirty years later, nothing has changed for women who kill in self-defence
26:29 – How Sally McNeil’s decision to take the stand was a mistake
30:54 – Points of connection between three different women: Hilary Clinton, Tonya Harding, and Sally McNeil
32:45 – Nanette’s next project: A documentary on Liz Taylor
Resources:
Killer Sally
Killer Sally on IMDb
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Nanette Burstein:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 111: Killer Sally
Nanette Burstein 00:00
I'm Nanette Burstein, and I'm the director and executive producer of the documentary series, Killer Sally.
Speaker 1 00:06
A jury will decide the fate of Sally McNeil, a female body builder accused of killing her husband, another body builder, on Valentine's Day last year.
Speaker 2 00:14
You're gonna be going to a shelter because of what I did to daddy.
Speaker 3 00:22
Sally McNeil has a tremendous physique, and she's married to Ray McNeil.
Speaker 4 00:26
She's married to Ray McNeil, who's certainly one of the most muscular pros alive.
Speaker 5 00:30
He looked like the statue of David. He was beautiful. Lust at first sight.
Speaker 6 00:35
Sally was the main breadwinner.
Speaker 7 00:38
They were into some funny stuff.
Speaker 8 00:40
There's a seedy side of bodybuilding. Nobody talks about it. A man would pay for what was known as 'muscle worship'. That's basically muscle prostitution.
Speaker 9 00:50
If I wrestled ten of them, that's 3,000 dollars. It made Ray happy that it was paying for his steroids. Then he hit me.
Speaker 10 00:59
911.
Speaker 11 01:00
I just shot my husband because he just beat me up.
Speaker 12 01:03
You shot your husband?
Speaker 13 01:04
Yes.
Speaker 14 01:05
Sally McNeil took a shotgun and blasted her husband, and shot him again in the face.
Speaker 15 01:09
I'm sorry if I disappointed you.
Speaker 16 01:14
She protected her kids like a wild animal.
Speaker 17 01:16
I remember how torturous it used to be to have to sit there and watch him abuse my sister. And to know that I was next.
Speaker 18 01:27
Sally didn't talk about what was happening with Ray.
Speaker 19 01:31
And I've learned to suppress things, and block them out.
Speaker 20 01:34
To me this was a premeditated murder. He was shot in the face while on the ground.
Speaker 21 01:39
I have a right to defend myself. I couldn't take it anymore. I didn't want to die.
Matthew Sherwood 01:55
Welcome to Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers, and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome Nanette Burstein, the award-winning director of the new Netflix docu-series, Killer Sally. The film is the story of bodybuilding's most notorious crime. On Valentine's Day, 1995, national bodybuilding champion Ray McNeil was choking his bodybuilding wife, Sally, when she grabbed a gun and fatally shot him twice. Listen, as Nanette joins us to discuss this complex true crime story. Nanette, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Nanette Burstein 02:34
Things are good. It's a big day, today; you know, our series launches on Netflix; so, an eventful moment.
Matthew Sherwood 02:45
Well, I mean, congratulations, and welcome to Factual America. It's a pleasure; a real honor to have you on. In case people weren't paying attention when the intro was running, we're talking about Killer Sally. It's indeed a Netflix docu-series, releasing... is it everywhere, today, here on November 2nd? I know it's releasing in the UK today.
Nanette Burstein 03:05
It is everywhere. It's global. Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 03:10
Excellent.
Nanette Burstein 03:12
Every country except, I think three, where Netflix doesn't air.
Matthew Sherwood 03:16
So, as we were saying the docu-series is Killer Sally. Now, it's just dropped on Netflix, so, many of our listeners and viewers will have not seen it, yet. So, I guess - and it is a true crime doc, though I guess maybe not too much need for spoiler alerts, but we will, I mean, encourage people to watch it, maybe first and then come back and listen to our little chat here, but maybe you can give us a bit of a synopsis. What is Killer Sally all about?
Nanette Burstein 03:50
Well, Killer Sally is one of the most notorious crimes in the bodybuilding world. Sally McNeil was an amateur bodybuilder, a Marine. She was married to a professional bodybuilder, Ray McNeil, who was Mr. North America. They had a very tumultuous marriage to say the least. And on Valentine's Day of 1995, Ray was allegedly choking out Sally. They had a fight, and she got away from him. She ran and got a gun, and fatally shot him twice. The, you know, Sally, claimed self-defense. There had been a history of domestic abuse and the prosecution claimed that Sally was a thug, a bully, and that it was premeditated murder. And really, this series is about domestic violence. It's about gender roles, and it's about the world of bodybuilding, which is an unusual one.
Matthew Sherwood 04:59
Indeed, an interesting combination. I mean, I think - isn't it the DA who says that there's two types of, you know, cases. There's a 'whodunnit', and a 'what is it'. And this is sort of - the series is really...
Nanette Burstein 05:15
It's not a whodunnit.
Matthew Sherwood 05:16
It's not a whodunnit. So, hence why I said there might not be too many spoiler alerts...
Nanette Burstein 05:20
Although it is, you know, 'who is at fault'. And was it premeditated, or was it self-defense.
Matthew Sherwood 05:28
That's right. And you have, over three episodes, you know, definitely show us all the different - there are some twists and turns, and some different angles on this. And I guess it's - I mean, I found it extremely compelling. Personally, I'm not a - I'm not really that - I'm not one of these types that's really, really into true crime, but, I found it extremely compelling. And, you know, obviously, the main character, the main subject is Sally McNeil, although there's a lot of subjects beyond - in terms of individuals - as well as the topics you've already mentioned, but you spend a lot of time with her. Did you ever really - did you ever feel like you really got to know her? Because I think she - seems like she could be a difficult person to get to know.
Nanette Burstein 06:22
No, I definitely feel that way. Still feel that way. In fact, I'm gonna see her this evening. Yeah, I felt that Sally was, you know, very forthright, surprisingly; you know, even with her own admissions, you know, she definitely has flaws and owns up to them. And I did - I do, and did, feel that I got to know her very well, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 06:51
Yeah. And so, basically, as you've already - you know, she was this - I mean, it's also an insight into - I guess the added element to this is it's all in the 1990s as well. I mean, 80s and 90s. So...
Nanette Burstein 07:04
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 07:04
It's a look back on a - well, for someone like me, it's hard to believe that's a long gone era. But it's, you know, I mean, you know, it's - I mean, as you said, there's this, you know, there was this tumultuous relationship that they had. It was high profile. I didn't - hadn't quite appreciated, but it was on all the, like, hard copy and these sorts of places, you know, the case was, beyond the local news. And I guess it's, I mean, there's this, as you document, I mean, it's not just this, it's all about the legacy of abuse throughout people's lives, isn't it? I mean, it's not just they got, you know, there was something that happened, you know, things that happened before they even - the two of them got together.
Nanette Burstein 07:58
Yeah, a lot of the series. I mean, yes, there is a crime at the center of it. And there is this issue of what was the motivation, who is at fault. And there was a - you know, there was certainly a mystery that twists and turns... Sorry, I don't know if you heard that horn! But there are twists and turns in the story. But it's also very much about this cycle of abuse. And Sally and Ray both came from abusive homes. Sally and Ray... Sally had kids and Ray was abusive to Sally's kids. And they, as adults have dealt with their own issues of being in abusive situations and are very much trying to break the cycle of violence. So, it takes us up to contemporary days, and it's a very tough cycle to change. It really is, and people deserve enormous credit for getting beyond it, which I think her kids - I think people hopefully will come away with how much they have been through and struggle with.
Matthew Sherwood 09:04
Well, indeed, and I think they also come across as just incredibly brave and strong individuals given what they...
Nanette Burstein 09:13
They do. And they're really fragile, you know, and still are fragile. So, more than I realized, you know, I just - I think it's very hard. You know, they very boldly wanted to tell their story. And, you know, but it is reliving trauma, and that's very difficult thing to do.
Matthew Sherwood 09:34
I mean, both of them. I mean, the daughter and the son, but the son especially. I mean, he's even - I don't know, how old was he when the death occurred - you know, the incident happened, and he's talking about how he wanted to have a chance to testify in court.
Nanette Burstein 09:49
Yeah, he was nine years old when the incident happened, and I was shocked at his level of recall. I mean, I really wasn't - I actually waited to interview him for a while because he was not in a great place, initially. Not that he said no, but I just didn't want to approach him while he was dealing with some personal stuff; and he was in a better place, and he very much wanted to do it. You know, it was important to him. And he - he really, he wanted to do it, because for his mom, and he wanted to do it, because he wanted to help other people in this situation, in a domestic violence situation. And I was amazed at not only what he remembered, but how insightful he was, you know; I mean, he experienced this as a child, but then he was able to process it, and to have this adult insight into it that is so poignant. Angry at times, understandably, and so forthright; I mean, it's really haunting. And he stands by everything he said. I just spoke to him today, and, you know, he feels exactly the same today, as he did in that interview. And, you know, he was relieved. When he - the night that Ray was shot, he was asleep in the bedroom. And he woke up from the mayhem after the 911 call. And he had to step over Ray's body to get out of his room. And he says, and he still says today, all he felt was enormous relief, that he and his mom and his sister would never be abused again, that it was over.
Matthew Sherwood 10:06
No, I mean, it's - I mean, as a filmmaker - I've asked this of filmmakers before with these sort of subjects and topics, I mean, what is the challenge when you're interviewing people, like, who are having - you're having to make them relive this. I mean, there's even people who are not directly involved, but who are involved and who - they themselves say, Oh, no, I'm having to relive all this again, you know. How do you handle that? How do you tackle it? I mean...
Nanette Burstein 12:07
I mean, I'm not making them because they willfully sit down to the interview, and they know what they're getting into. I mean, certainly no one does it against their will. And I think that, you know, obviously, you know, they want to tell their story. I mean, they may, you know, have second thoughts as it's about to come out, that typically can happen with some people, they're like, Oh, my God. How is this going to come up? What did I say? And they get nervous. And that's not unusual. But in that moment, they're very - they want to tell their story. And if they don't, that's a bad interview. I mean, it's just not, you know, and I'll end up [not] using it. So, I just allow a space for them to be forthright and very present in the moment and just asking them questions based on the, you know, I write a list of questions, but then I don't look at them when I'm in it. I just, you know, have them kind of memorized in my head, probably like you do right now in this interview, and you kind of go where the conversation flows.
Matthew Sherwood 13:07
Exactly. I mean, and then, in terms of this, I mean, I would guess you probably didn't know that much about bodybuilding before you got into this? I mean, as you're unpeeling this onion, what did you discover, and what did, you know, what surprised you?
Nanette Burstein 13:27
Actually, a lot surprised me about bodybuilding. I didn't know that much about it. I mean, I watched Pumping Iron and you know, knew about Mr. Olympia contest. But beyond that, I wasn't really that familiar with it. I mean, first of all, I learned how intense it is, you know, to get to that level; you know, how much work, and how few people, but that, you know, that part I guess is not that surprising; getting any level of sport to be at the top, you know, takes that kind of determination. I think what surprised me, and I also expected the empowerment; I get that, you know, for a lot of people it's, like, it's really empowering, especially women, but I think men, too, feel that kind of strength is amazing. But on the flip side, it's so unhealthy. It is so, so unhealthy, like, beyond anything that I realized. I mean, yes, I realized okay, I'm sure there's drugs involved, steroids and HGH or whatever, what have you, and I didn't realize they didn't test for it at all, which they don't. And also, you're at your most unhealthy just before a competition. Because in order to have your veins pop and be straited, you need to massively carb depletes. You're basically starving yourself, and you're dehydrating yourself intentionally, and you're on a massive amount of drugs. So, you know, you are pushing your body to limits that it should not be pushed to. So, on the one hand it's been psychologically empowering. On the other hand, it's physically damaging; like, this thing that we think, Oh my God, look how amazing they are. They've worked so hard to get to this level, being so strong, and it does take so much hard work and determination, but it's not good for you. And, you know, a lot of people have suffered the detriments of that. It's also, you know, some people can fall into - there's a level of narcissism that needs to happen, because you have to practice your poses, you know, it's a very subjective sport, and you have to stand in front of a mirror and practice how you pose, all the time, which, you know, then causes you to maybe not, you know, there could be a - not for everyone, I'm not saying this. I mean, for some people, it doesn't happen - but I think for some people there's a form of anorexia, you know, not anorexia, but like, whatever the word would be related to your muscles, and you have body dysmorphia; you don't see yourself for what you look like, which pushes you to go further and further, be unhappy with yourself, and that's unhealthy, too. So, there are pluses and minuses to this more than your average sport.
Matthew Sherwood 16:20
And I mean, just besides the physical toll it takes, and I think you've alluded to it, is also - must be the psychological toll. I mean, it's - you're doing that to your body, it can't but help affect your mental side of things, I would imagine.
Nanette Burstein 16:33
Well, listen, I mean, you know, by studying your body to that detail is probably an unhealthy situation.
Matthew Sherwood 16:41
I mean, I thought it was interesting in the first episode, that even the children talk about, you know, they'd go off to Disneyland, or wherever they were going, and people would just stare at them, because their parents who look like, I don't know, superhero toys, or dolls, walking...
Nanette Burstein 16:56
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 16:56
... walking down the street. You know, people just staring at them.
Nanette Burstein 17:00
People were staring at them, you know, mainly because of that, but also, you know, it was the late 80s, early 90s, they were an interracial marriage, their kids, dark skin with bleach blonde hair - not bleach, it was naturally like blonde hair. They were unusual in every way.
Matthew Sherwood 17:17
Beautiful children.
Nanette Burstein 17:19
Beautiful, absolutely gorgeous. But definitely, for all those reasons, stand out.
Matthew Sherwood 17:25
And then there's, I mean, it's also at a time when women are just getting into bodybuilding, isn't it? And so, that was interesting to - I guess, how things have changed. I gather in the last thirty years or so. But also, this whole - I mean, there are all these other sort of cultures and dynamics to what women had to go through, who wanted to be bodybuilders in order to, you know, make a living, support themselves. Obviously...
Nanette Burstein 17:56
Yeah, you know, and there is a Washington Post article just last week about contemporary female bodybuilding, which I don't get into, because my story doesn't take place then.
Matthew Sherwood 18:06
Yeah.
Nanette Burstein 18:06
And it's really disturbing. I mean, so many women are being exploited. They're asked to pose nude, to do nude photos by the people in charge, and they feel pressured to do it. And it's really horrible. It, unfortunately, lends itself to the possibility of exploitation. I mean, any kind of sport that is subjective like that, and, you know, is run by a handful of people, and kind of under the radar, it can get into some weird situations, particularly for women.
Matthew Sherwood 18:44
Well, I think that actually - on that note, I guess that takes us to a good point to maybe give our listeners a quick early break. We'll be right back with Nanette Burstein, the director of Killer Sally, a Netflix docu-series that dropped today on November 2. Do check it out.
Factual America Midroll 19:06
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases, or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 19:24
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Nanette Burstein, the director and executive producer of Killer Sally, a Netflix docu-series that has premiered today, November 2. Hopefully, this episode will be releasing fairly soon as well. Nanette, what drew you to this story? I mean, you've got an illustrious career. Had you done anything like this before? Any sort of true crime - what we broadly call true crime?
Nanette Burstein 19:57
Yeah, I have actually done true crime, in the same way that this is. It's the kind of case that lends itself to a bigger issue of social importance, and is more character based. So, I did a film for ESPN, 30 for 30, on Tonya Harding, in 2014, called The Price of Gold. I did a film for Showtime about John McAfee, and the crimes that he committed in Belize. So, I'm not new to delving into the genre. I do it in my own way. Not gratuitously, I'd like to think. And it's usually because the case itself is about something much bigger that I care about. And that was definitely the case here. I mean, you know, one out of every three women globally, is the victim of physical and, or sexual violence by an intimate partner. It's a huge problem. And we put it - we sweep it under the rug, you know, and I think that Sally's case definitely sheds light on the fact that we need to revisit how we judicially and socially deal with domestic violence cases. Particularly when it comes to claims of self-defense. I also felt like it was important to talk about the gender roles that were very unusual in this story, given Sally's background, and how she was portrayed in the media, as an angry woman, as not being able to be a victim because of her physical strength. You know, she was called the Pumped Up Princess, and the Brawny Bride, and all this ridiculous alliteration that lends itself to tabloid journalism. And, you know, so those are the reasons that I wanted to do it, and Sally was very gung-ho about telling her story, which is incredibly important to me that the subject wants their story to be told in the situation, and wants to share their side of it. The producers had contacted her a while before I got involved. And she said she wanted to do it, and supported the project during the entire process, so.
Matthew Sherwood 22:16
So, it was the producers that came up with the idea for the series?
Nanette Burstein 22:20
It is, yes. So, Neighborhood Watch, which is the company run by Richard P. and Traci Carlson, had read in 2016 - they had read an old - somehow come across an old tabloid magazine story about Sally's case, and felt in the #metoo, reckoning era, like, Hey, there's probably more to this story, I suspect, and wrote her a letter, and she responded quite favorably.
Matthew Sherwood 22:50
And she was...
Nanette Burstein 22:51
... and it went from there.
Matthew Sherwood 22:52
Yeah. And as you say, you know, on the issues, it's exploring - I mean, it says a lot about prevailing attitudes, then, but do you see - I mean, I think the series also points out that some of these have not changed in the last thirty years. I mean, there's too much of an easy - it's too easy to say, Well, that was the 90s, you know, and things are different now.
Nanette Burstein 23:17
Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, it's sometimes it's helpful to look at cases that happened in the past, because you can see them with a more objective lens having, you know, looking in the rearview mirror for everyone. But that said, it's just as relevant today, unfortunately. There's still so many cases of women that have defended themselves and murdered their spouses. And because of the specifics of how it came out, like maybe their husband turned around when they shot him, or maybe in Sally's case, they shot him twice, and not just once. And so, all these things are used, and it's very hard to prove self-defense, especially imminent threat. There's so many ways to argue against it. And, you know, what are women supposed to do? I mean, the most dangerous time for women is when they leave, you know, because most people are like, Why don't you just leave? And it's not easy to leave, especially when you have kids, especially when you don't have financial resources. And she was actually ready to go and then, unfortunately, this happened before [...] terrible timing, but even so, even when they do leave, that is the number one time when men and women get murdered. I mean, there's no way to protect yourself; like, you know, even if you have a protective order against your spouse, the police can't guard you 24 hours a day; like, you know; so, it's really hard to get out of that situation.
Matthew Sherwood 24:51
What do you think - I mean, I just thought of this. What does it say about - criminal justice seems to so often come down to almost performance, you know. A DA - I mean, there's no doubt, everyone knows, she shot Ray, so, that's not in doubt. No disagreement. But this, you know, the way the DA doing his job performs and puts his case forward and how her defense attorney, who you have on, who, you know, talks about the difficulties he had in doing the case. And then, I think this - also this lack of understanding of what women are going through in cases like this. So, she doesn't do this, she fell asleep while being interviewed or, you know, she, you know, these kinds of things are like, Well, what, I don't know; how many of us even have any idea what it must - you know, what are you going through at a time like that? And then her own natural personality trait, which was - I think, as the DA said, she made - she admits it was a mistake going on to the stand, but then she just, she became a different - in some ways a different person, and that she just kind of, as he said, became the perfect Marine, and just was kind of very stilted in yes and no answers and nothing. It was just the wrong - you know, that fateful decision, maybe was the difference between having to serve - what did she serve? 25 years, and serving ten or whatever?
Nanette Burstein 26:29
Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, going on the stand was a terrible mistake. Her lawyer strongly advised her against it. It's never a good idea for defendants to go on the stand. And also, they're just not in the right frame of mind. I mean, think about, you know, you can't express yourself normally in that situation, and you're being attacked by a prosecutor, you're so tense, and yes, she said, Yes, sir. No, sir, like an obedient Marine. But the worst part of that was, is that - not to give away too much - but she - the reason why the series is called Killer Sally is that it was her wrestling stage name. And, you know, he asked her if she was known by the name Killer Sally. And she says, No, because in her regular life, she's not, and she wasn't thinking that way. And that opened the door for them to say, Oh, well, you're lying. And then they show this poster of her; a poster that she did for her wrestling gigs, holding the murder weapon because it was the gun that she had in her house. And it says Killer Sally. Now that is not evidence of anything. Because we know she has a gun. And that's just her stage name, and it's just a promotional poster. But, you know, that was very damaging for the jury to put the gun in her hands as a visual and call herself Killer Sally. So, yeah, there is a performance level. I mean, some of the stuff that the prosecution was openly saying in court is, you know, Sally can't be a victim because, you know, she's...
Matthew Sherwood 28:10 ... too buff.
Nanette Burstein 28:11
Yeah, exactly. She's too buff. And then she's violent, and a violent woman can't be a victim. Now, she does have some history of violence herself. She's not a perfect victim. A lot of victims are not perfect. They come from abusive backgrounds. But that doesn't mean they're not still victims. You know, and that's what makes this story complicated. I mean, when I was making it, you know, there were times where I went back and forth. Well, you know, is she guilty, is she not guilty? You know, I personally have come away with feeling that she's absolutely not guilty. But, I mean, you know, other audience members may come to their own conclusion about that. I certainly present all sides of it. But yeah, some of the arguments which she was convicted on are totally bogus. Not factual.
Matthew Sherwood 28:58
No, no, I completely agree. I mean, and I think - well, you wouldn't have obviously, as a talented filmmaker, you wouldn't had it any other way, but you do let the viewer make their own decision. I mean, you do present the sides and people, again, you should have a watch and come to your own conclusions. But I will say I had extreme compassion for her in that one particular moment as well, when the defense attorney said she's an extremely literal person. And I'm an extremely literal person. If someone had asked me, Are you known as Killer Matt? I would have said, No, you know, and then that just, and then that totally - oh, as they pointed out that that then - all this stuff that wasn't admissible before became admissible, and...
Nanette Burstein 29:43
That's correct. And she is a very literal person. I mean, even today, like, in her interview, every question I'd asked her she's very literal. The way she responds to things. It's just her personality. And unfortunately, that does not bode well in a court of law.
Matthew Sherwood 29:57
I certainly hoping not to be in a court of law, anytime soon. I mean, you were - so, while you were doing this project, were you also working on the Hillary project?
Nanette Burstein 30:11
No, no, this was afterwards.
Matthew Sherwood 30:14
Was this afterwards?
Nanette Burstein 30:16
Yes, yes.
Matthew Sherwood 30:17
But did you ever - do you ever contrast with these other projects? I mean - they're very different. I haven't seen the Hillary doc, actually, to be honest with you, but...
Nanette Burstein 30:28
You should watch it!
Matthew Sherwood 30:28
Yeah, I should. I'm definitely going to, now.
Nanette Burstein 30:33
Hopefully you'll like it!
Matthew Sherwood 30:34
No, I think - but do you think - I mean, maybe I'm trying to put too much into this. But, two - I mean, very different, but also, both polarizing figures in their way, I would argue, between Sally and Hillary. Do you think - does that say anything about how women are in the public eye?
Nanette Burstein 30:54
Well, I definitely seem to have told now three stories about women who are villainized in the 90s. And while Hillary was First Lady, and also, you know, very much admired, she was also villainized at the same time. Tonya Harding was certainly villainized, and thought of as the angry woman; much like Sally. So, I definitely am very interested in these kinds of stories. And because I think they're still very relevant today. I think that, you know, women that don't fit into a certain mould, they, you know, are highly judged. And to their detriment. I think, you know, even - like, you look at female politicians today, like, they just can't win. Any female in the public sphere is judged in a way that men are not. And God forbid, you know, you're in a defamatory situation, like, good luck to you! You know, if this is your gender, it's worse. And, you know, I'm not trying to whine about it. I just think that that's the truth.
Matthew Sherwood 31:59
Did the 30 for 30 come out before the I, Tonya?
Nanette Burstein 32:03
Yeah, actually, the writer watched it on ESPN, and was inspired to write I, Tonya based on my documentary.
Matthew Sherwood 32:10
And what did you think of I, Tonya?
Nanette Burstein 32:13
Oh, it was really good.
Matthew Sherwood 32:14
Yeah.
Nanette Burstein 32:15
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 32:16
Yeah. No, I think - because you have some experience with narrative as well, don't you...?
Nanette Burstein 32:21
I do. Yes. I've done both. Although I favor documentaries.
Matthew Sherwood 32:25
That brings us to - and it's hard to believe we're already coming to the end of our time together...
Nanette Burstein 32:32
I know. It's flown by.
Matthew Sherwood 32:32
But, what is next for you? Are you able to - I mean, I know you're living in the moment that is Killer Sally at the moment, but anything else in the works?
Nanette Burstein 32:45
I'm working on a documentary on Liz Taylor for HBO, and I got some amazing, archival footage from her estate. And I'm seeing/heard interviews with her. So, that is my current project.
Matthew Sherwood 33:01
And I'm just now thinking, has there ever - there's not really been a Liz Taylor doc has there? Nothing recent.
Nanette Burstein 33:08
Nothing that has been the standout, no.
Matthew Sherwood 33:11
That's amazing. So, when shall we expect to see that?
Nanette Burstein 33:16
Hopefully in a year from now.
Matthew Sherwood 33:18
Okay. Well, if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again. So...
Nanette Burstein 33:22
No, thank you. No, you haven't scared me off at all! Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 33:25
So, when that drops, we'd love to - I hope you can come back, and just want to thank you again. Just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with Nanette Burstein, the director and executive producer of Killer Sally, the Netflix docu-series. It's three episodes, highly recommend it. It flies by, hopefully like this episode has as well. And it's really very compelling. Very, very interesting, and poignant stories. And yes, again, I do highly recommend it. So, thanks again, Nanette. Love to have you on again, and enjoy the rest of your day.
Nanette Burstein 34:07
Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
Matthew Sherwood 34:09
Okay, take care.
Matthew Sherwood 34:11
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 34:53
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