White Boy Rick: A Call for a Better American Justice System

Factual America

13 Apr

Written By

Richard Wershe, Jr, aka White Boy Rick, is the subject of a true-crime documentary that recently landed on Netflix. Shawn Rech, the award-winning director and producer of White Boy (2017), joins us to talk about the tragic circumstances surrounding White Boy Rick's over-30-year incarceration for a nonviolent offence.

Shawn is well-known for creating documentaries that help to overturn wrongful convictions or over-sentencing. White Boy tells the story of Richard, who was an FBI informant as a child and an alleged cocaine kingpin in Detroit in the 1980s.

Richard received a life sentence despite being just 17 years old. The film looks at his case, shining a stark light onto 1980s Detroit and the American justice system.

We talk about the White Boy Rick's reputation, who he really was, and the racism and unjust laws that allowed a child to be groomed by the FBI.

“Don’t always trust the government, and don’t always trust the media. Do your own investigating and vet your sources.” - Shawn Rech

Time Stamps:

00:15 - The trailer for the documentary White Boy.
03:00 - Why White Boy has only just come out on Netflix in the US.
05:41 - The reputation of Richard Wershe, Jr and the reality of who he was.
08:14 - What Detroit was like in the 1980s and how corrupt it was.
10:05 - The racist nature of the accusations surrounding Richard.
14:23 - The FBI operation ‘Backbone’ that was deliberately quashed.
17:41 - The unjust laws and sentencing surrounding crack cocaine convictions.
21:15 - The draconian sentencing Richard received as a juvenile.
24:14 - What’s happened to Richard since the documentary released in 2017.
28:30 - The hitman that confessed to 30 murders but received a light sentence.
31:20 - What it was like when hitman Nathaniel Boone Craft turned up to the screening.
36:32 - The fictional film that was based on Richard’s life.
38:52 - What the role of documentaries is with regards to the criminal justice system.
40:28 - The documentary Shawn is making about Making a Murderer.
50:31 - Why it took Netflix so long to license White Boy.
53:15 - Why Shawn advocates for self-distribution.
59:13 - The way you can get rich in the documentary film business.
1:00:19 - White Boy's legacy and what Shawn is working on now.

Resources:

White Boy (2017)
A Murder in the Park (2014)
Convicting a Murderer
American Gospel: Christ Alone (2018)
Careers in Film
This Is Distorted
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode White Boy Rick: A Call for a Better American Justice System

Shawn Rech 00:01
Hello, my name is Shawn Rech. I am a documentary director and one of our films, White Boy, is now on the Netflix top 10 movies in the US.

Speaker 1 00:13
We're gonna look like businessmen delivering packages.

Speaker 2 00:15
Money, money, money.

Speaker 1 00:17
Only us and you will know it's drugs.

Speaker 3 00:19
Okay.

Speaker 4 00:24
Anybody who's in possession of over 650 grams of cocaine: mandatory life.

Speaker 5 00:28
White Boy Rick: his name is Richard Wershe Jr. I was like, who was this white kid, you know, that was supposedly running all these black gangs and running the city of Detroit. When you're 17 years old and you're moving kilos, you're at a status of drug dealer that most 17 year olds don't reach.

00:45
Why would a juvenile nonviolent drug offender be kept in prison beyond 29 years?

Speaker 5 00:53
I found out that the reality was much different than the legend.

00:57
And I knew that there were corrupt police officers involved in this thing.

Speaker 5 01:01
Coleman Young is the most powerful politician in the history of Detroit. And his niece was Cathy Volson. And she was married to Johnny Curry, one of the biggest drug dealers in Detroit.

01:12
Hey, every police officer down at 1300 was crooked.

01:15
If you're criminal, I would advise you never to get a nickname.

Speaker 6 01:19
So, they said 'We got a kid - that white boy'.

01:22
Law enforcement created almost a perfect criminal.

01:25
The War on Drugs is over, and drugs won.

01:28
There's still a lot of angry people in the city of Detroit in positions of power.

01:33
I did way more than he could possibly ever done to get that kind of sentence.

01:38
Third World countries don't incarcerate like this.

01:44
You're not trying to tell me that you're an angel that you never did anything wrong, right?

01:49
I've been involved in wrongdoing but I don't feel like did anything to receive a life sentence.

Matthew 01:58
That is a trailer from the documentary White Boy, now on Netflix, and this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and today we're talking about Richard Wershe Jr., aka White Boy Rick, the subject of the latest True Crime doc that landed on Netflix at the beginning of April. Talking to us about the tragic circumstances surrounding White Boy Rick's over 30 year incarceration for a non violent offense, is Shawn Rech, the award winning director and producer of White Boy. So Shawn, welcome to Factual America.

Shawn Rech 02:38
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Matthew 02:41
Yeah, it's great to have you on. The film is White Boy, which actually was done in 2017. Has it been released a few times? Because it's definitely on Netflix now, as of April 2021, but have you been on Netflix before, or is it been there, we just haven't noticed or...?

Shawn Rech 03:02
Well, it's been there worldwide. Netflix worldwide is a very different animal. It's - they act, they run, like different companies. So, our foreign distribution is all through Cineflix, based in Ireland, and they have a Toronto office. So, they did a wonderful job of getting TV deals for White Boy, throughout - I mean, just throughout the world. I mean, they've dubbed it in German. It's on Foxtel in Australia and New Zealand. It's been licensed all over the place. And it's been on Netflix in Europe, I think for over a year now. The Netflix release in the United States is our second window. Our first window release was on Starz. But I'll tell you what, it may, or, may as well have just been released, because on April 1st, when it hit Netflix it exploded. It hit their Top 10 list - and the tweets, it's trending. It's just It's amazing, what's happening. The power of Netflix.

Matthew 04:01
As you said in your intro, you're doing very well on Netflix. Yes, indeed as well on social media trending, you broke into the Top 10 at least for a few days, if not several, since you - the second window, so - and it's had a knock on effect because even though it's been available here in the UK, many of us were sort of unaware and now it's trending again, it may not - I don't know if it's broken into the Top 10 yet here, but certainly it's making a splash in the in the local media, certainly in terms of the - the newspapers, so maybe you could tell our listeners and I don't know sometimes I think for some of our films, I'm not - I'm not sure what - should we say a spoiler alert, should we tell people they should watch the film first? I say that with - at the same time, I think what we're gonna - there's so much in this film that just talking about the basics and the facts of the case are not necessarily gonna give in other ways much away. But if you - just to say to our listeners, if you want to - don't want to have any surprises whatsoever, and the film craft, you know, very craftily sort of slowly unveils. You know, I would say personally, I think this is a True Crime doc that takes you to places that maybe are a bit unexpected when - when some people sit down to watch a True Crime doc, and that's much appreciated. But with that big warning alert there, maybe Shawn, you can tell our listeners who Richard Wershe Jr. - was gonna say 'is' but certainly, what was his reputation? Who did people think Richard Wershe Jr. was?

Shawn Rech 05:42
I actually first heard about him in the 1980s, just as as a kid. I believe that the lie that I heard, which was that there was some 15 year old white kid calling the shots for a bunch of inner city, well organized gangs in Detroit. And that is the lie. That's the legend that was created by the newspaper. And in some ways, it was fed to the newspapers and to the local news by the police. But you know how it works with television and news: if it gets numbers, they're going to keep going with it, and following up on that story. So, basically, this is a 15 year old kid who had a reputation of being a huge drug dealer and a Weak Man, as they say, meaning he brought in kilos to Detroit, who didn't run in these circles. But he wasn't really in charge of anything. And he ended up running afoul of some very powerful people who made it their mission to make sure he was locked up and died in prison. That was their goal. And so, that's - and he ended up you know, I heard about him when I was 15, or 16. When I was 18, or 19, I heard that he had been incarcerated. And I never heard another thing. And I was, you know, 25 years later, I hear he's still locked up. And I'm like, that couldn't be not for a non violent juvenile offense. And he was indeed still locked up. So, we just finished our movie A Murder in the Park, and we were looking for something new to do. And I thought, well, this is another, another jaw dropping example of prosecutorial abuse. So, we - that's why we decided to run with it.

Matthew 07:32
Well, you bring up a lot of subjects there that are all worth talking about. And hopefully we will, we will touch on a lot of these over the next 45 minutes to an hour. But I mean, I think your film, maybe we can start off with - before discussing Richard Wershe further and this whole cert - circumstances that you capture in your film. I mean, one thing that your film also does is and maybe for some of our listeners who are younger or not from the US, I mean, what was Detroit like in the 1980s? I'd forgotten how bad it actually was.

Shawn Rech 08:13
I didn't realize how bad it was; you know, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, which was pretty rough. And for us, the town that we always thought was crazier than Cleveland was Chicago. Yeah, that's, there's still to this day. I mean, they have 30 murder weekends, in Chicago. So that was - and it was so corrupt. And the leadership is so corrupt that, you know, we always thought that was the the dirty town. This was an education for me. When I found out some of the things that we reveal in the film, I mean, my jaw hit the ground, and I learned as we made this, nothing tops. I doubt there's any city that was more corrupt than the Detroit area in the 1970s and 80s.

Matthew 09:04
I mean, I will say I had a good college friend who was from Detroit. And so I had a bit, you know, he's used fill me in a little bit. Nothing - I agree. I I did not realize; I mean, many of us have seen the footage of how Detroit's you know, falling - has fallen apart and the flight away from the city and the population, you know, declining very quickly. But I was surprised; I didn't - I wasn't aware of, of how bad it was. And I thought that you capture that well. But as you're saying, I mean, there's this - you know, we have White Boy Rick, his moniker...

Shawn Rech 09:40
... which he hates, by the way!

Matthew 09:42
Well, I can imagine and as your film talks about, really, the worst thing to have is one of these catchy nicknames, but his legend was a gross exaggeration, as you've already said, I mean, supposed masterminded the Detroit drug scene. I mean, that's almost in some ways an - it's an insult and form of racism to the real masterminds.

Shawn Rech 10:05
Absolutely. It was absolute racism time, because when it was presented to me, it was like, can you believe? Almost like, can you believe they needed a white guy and that is totally racist. And you know, but the funny thing is, you're right, it was nothing close to the truth. But he was sentenced as if it was, as if it were the truth. And so that's what was so crazy about this case.

Matthew 10:28
And so he's what strikes me is - he's caught in this no man's land, isn't he? So, he's an informant, right. So, he rats on the on the drug gangs and sends this Johnny Curry to jail and others. So they're after him, aren't they?

Shawn Rech 10:47
Well, not now.

Matthew 10:48
No?

Shawn Rech 10:48
We called Johnny during our interview. He even called the hitman during our interview, and we'll get to soon, I'm sure. He talked to those guys. Yeah, I'll tell you about the conversations when we get to that point, if you want.

Matthew 11:04
Yeah, no. Well, I mean, let's, let's talk. Well, I mean, so okay, let's get back. Let's - I'm not gonna let go that because that is very interesting. But I think certainly the Feds and state law enforcement abandoned him, right? They leave them out to, you know, the FBI wants to keep him quiet, because they were exploiting a child as an informant. He was like a foot soldier on the war on drugs. Is that fair enough to say?

Shawn Rech 11:30
I think it's fair to say Agent Groman denies that he ever used them for drug buys, or that he sent him to Las Vegas. But he says that that was the Detroit police and other agencies who did that. But, you know, I think that if you do some digging, you know, that's, I don't think everybody knew what everybody was doing at that point. And he definitely was, was, was abused and was led down that direction. He may never have touched drugs, were it not for the FBI.

Matthew 12:04
So I think you said is this web, you know, you have even graphics, that show it, this web of different jurisdictions and law enforcement agencies and federal agencies all involved in this war on drugs. And at some point, there they stopped using him as an informant. And then he's kind of left on his own. And he's been in this world of, as you've said, probably wouldn't have touched drugs, if it hadn't been for this situation. He had been in that, I guess, his father kind of introduced him.

Shawn Rech 12:38
They taught him a trade. They taught him a trade. And he was no longer an apprentice. And they gave him 10s of 1000s of dollars to make drug buys. So, he had good credit because of their money. He said, 'Well, I know how to make a quick 50 grand this weekend'. And that's what he would do. I mean, the other guys are making millions and millions and millions. He wasn't at that level, but they set him up and sent him - they franchised him. You know, and then they abandoned him; yes, they completely abandoned him because they, one day they came to their senses and said, 'Oh my god, what have we done?' But you know, and, and - look, now the FBI agents who are in the film are riddled with guilt. They came - they flew in at their own expense to do those interviews and Gregg Schwartz agent, the head agent in Detroit for a while, Gregg Schwartz, I mean, he, on his own dime, and in his own time, has spent over a decade, maybe two decades trying to undo this wrong. And he came in at the tail end of it. I think he's the one who said 'Stop'. But he's dedicated his life to freeing Richard Wershe Jr. So he, you know, he was riddled with guilt over what his organization had a hand in doing.

Matthew 14:03
And then he's also falling - and then also Richard is falling afoul of the Detroit establishment. Alright, so Mayor Coleman Young. So, maybe you can say a little bit more about that.

Shawn Rech 14:18
I'll tell you the story that we didn't put in the movie. There was an operation to get Coleman Young, it was called Operation Backbone. They named it Operation Backbone - you know, the agent in our movie says you had some - had to have some guts to do these things. But it was really because he thought the FBI were cowards. And they said, and they were debating where they were - whether they were going to go after Marion Barry, I mean, Coleman Young, because they didn't want another Marion Barry. That whole thing had just going down. They're like, 'We can't go out targeting black mayors'. He's like, 'Look, if he's dirty, he's dirty'. 'No, like, no this - These are Bad optics'. It was the first President Bush he didn't want it. I think it was his call. And so they actually kind of squelched the whole thing and, you know, but most of the corrupt officials but not Coleman Young. They stopped short of Coleman Young deliberately. That's why it was called Operation Backbone because he predicted they would have no backbone it's actually an agent mocking his organization because they knew they wouldn't follow through.

Matthew 15:29
That's, that's really interesting and interesting, honest slip of the tongue saying Marion Barry because...!

Shawn Rech 15:36
Well, oh that, but that's - that was the reason; I changed the order that was - sorry.

Matthew 15:41
No, no, I'm - because, because Marion Barry actually - because I mentioned it to my wife - my wife's a DC native; I lived in DC for a couple years under Marion Barry and yeah, it's quite - it - I hadn't seen anything like it since what little or interaction I had with the, you know, that era of Washington DC. But you've got Coleman Young, his niece is married to the drug - drug kingpin that we've made reference to already. Johnny Curry. I mean, it's, it's quite...

Shawn Rech 16:17
... he's locked up. She moves on to Rick.

Matthew 16:21
She moves on to Rick and Rick can say, 'Well, I'm - maybe it wasn't the smartest thing I did in my life, but I was only 17' or whatever - however old he was,

Shawn Rech 16:30
He said I was dating a movie star.

Matthew 16:32
Yeah, exactly. Well, it was well put. You've got - I mean, this is amazing stuff. You got Gil Hill, who's Eddie Murphy's foul mouthed boss in Beverly Hills Cop and actually in real life is the - what is he - head of homicide?

Shawn Rech 16:46
He was the head of homicide, yeah. And the revelations that - the allegations, I mean, he's passed away, and he can't defend himself, okay; but the allegations made against him are staggering.

Matthew 16:59
So, I mean, I think and yeah. And as you've said, allegations, I think you're very fair, you have people who say, 'Look, I'm not aware of anything'. I don't think some if not necessarily defended Coleman Young, the mayor, but said, 'Look, I don't think he was, I thought it was just the people around him who were corrupt'. So, we don't really know the true answers for some of these things, but it's out there for people to make their own judgments. So, you've got - so Rick, you know, so obviously, there's some people that want to see, Richard put away for a very long time, if not forever, I think as you've already already mentioned,

Shawn Rech 17:40
There was this draconian law passed when legislators didn't know what to do about crack cocaine, they did the only thing they could do in their chamber, which was create these insane sentencing guidelines. As if someone who makes this decision is going to sit and wait it out. You know, these people commit these crimes are acting impulsively, they're acting out of poverty, they're acting because they don't have the same moral standards as upstanding citizens. And to think that the notion that, that they're gonna say, 'Oh, boy, they raise the sentence, I'm gonna stop making 5000 bucks a day and go get a job' is silly. And they they seldom enforce those laws. We bring up in the film, that Tim Allen was prosecuted under those laws, but told - cracked a few jokes, and the judge said, 'Hey, you've got talent' and sentenced him to a couple of years. 'And so when you get out, I want you to try comedy'. You know, most people got a break, and who do they - But who do they put the hammer down on? They put the hammer down on Richard Wershe, Jr. and sentenced him to life as a kid, you know, as a juvenile.

Matthew 19:02
Yeah. So, non violent crime - I mean, it's even declared - later declared unconstitutional, at least under Michigan law.

Shawn Rech 19:10
It was an Eighth Amendment violation. It's a cruel and unusual punishment violation. Yes.

Matthew 19:17
Yeah. And yet, even though it was then declared unconstitutional, he's not even seeing, you know, what, in all those years because he's incarcerated for over 30 - 28 or so of those in Michigan; he barely sees a parole board.

Shawn Rech 19:33
When the law was struck down, he was supposed to be eligible for parole and have a hearing every five years. He had one hearing until until 2017. He had one hearing, and they rigged it. And the guys who went in and lied, sat in front of our cameras and admitted that they went in and lied. So, I mean, we prove it. We try not to - When we make movies, we try not to just use shade. We try not to just insinuate we try to have lockbox evidence of everything we're alleging.

Matthew 20:11
Okay, and I think it's so - So, what's very interesting about this film is that, you know, some of these True Crime films, it's all about trying to debunk a, you know, a case or a wrongful conviction. I know you have experience with that, but I mean, this is - there's no doubt that he was, you know, he was involved in these things. And he got - he had, you know, he's - had been dealing and we can give his - the film talks about the reason why he got into dealing but it's interesting, because it is, in some ways even more entertaining than a lot of these other True Crime Docs because it's, I think, because of the revelations that many of us were, as we've already kind of touched on, we're just completely unaware of that, how someone could just get locked away in the key thrown away. So, so easily,

Shawn Rech 21:14
it wasn't a wrongful conviction movie, it was an over sentencing movie. And I'll put it to you like this. If the judge and jury never had known that Rick was put in business by the government, and led down this path, this sentence should have been probably five to eight years. Had they known that the government did this, he probably would have given - been given a chance to reform, which the government should have done in the first place. His attorney says why didn't they put them in a boarding school and straighten his head out after they didn't even, you know, didn't even want him sleep at night, so he could go to school? That was another revelation. It's just insane.

Matthew 21:59
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's, I mean, it's one of those where you're just, I mean, my jaw was just dropping, I mean, this, you know, 14, 15 year old kid they're taking him out to nightclubs, having him finger people and then expecting him to be back at school at seven, eight in the next morning.

Shawn Rech 22:19
Yeah, that was one of them. We tried to drop a bomb about every 10 minutes when we make these things. Keep everybody interested!

Matthew 22:25
Well, for our listeners who haven't taken our advice, or have not gone and watched this first, before - there is - I think it's very fast move - a fast paced film, I will say certainly, certainly, the beginning just grabs you. I think at this stage, maybe let's take an early break for our sponsor, and we'll be right back with Shawn Rech, director and producer of White Boy.

Factual America midroll 22:50
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Matthew 23:09
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with director and producer Shawn Rech of White Boy, a second window of release, at least in the US on Netflix set from April 1st of 2021. It's for many of us, we didn't realize it was - had been there all along for at least - for about the better part of a year. I want to continue talking about if you don't mind talking about Richard Wershe Jr. And maybe you can give us an update on him. Because I've seen even on social media, you've had to come out there and say give updates on what you know, because a lot of people this film was - stops in 2017. A lot of people are curious to see what's happened to him. News stories here in the UK about you know, his situation. Is there, you know, so anything you want to say about his situation now and what he's up to?

Shawn Rech 24:10
Well, sure. I - and this is a spoiler alert, I suppose - but you'll be - even knowing this you'll be fully entertained watching the film. But we made it as a call to action film. We didn't think anything was going to change. So, we wanted to spark outrage showing certain facts and comparing what happened to other people who committed much more heinous crimes and what their sentences were. And at the end of the movie, you know, the parole board - I think... what I did was I went to the Daily Mail in England and I gave them footage of the hitman, alright? And because I didn't want to do this in the US because of certain laws. So, I fed them the story of Nathaniel Boone Craft, saying that the Detroit police ordered a hit on Richard Wershe Jr. Then, Kevin Dietz, reporter at WDIV in Detroit, could use them as the source and run this story in Detroit. And as soon as he had that story prepared, and asked the prosecutor for a comment, she would not comment on the fact that her mentor was accused and named as the person who ordered a hit on Richard Wershe, but then she said she - that, but at the exact same time, she said, 'I will no longer oppose his parole'. So we feel like the film had a little effect in that sense. And she, in fact, did follow through and did not oppose his parole. And Rick was paroled, but because of another misstep during prison, actually couldn't be released. So people are given this wonderful moment at the end, where he's paroled. And you think 'Ah, we're about to see him walk out', like all of our other movies. And, and all of a sudden it says, Richard Wershe is now serving time in Florida. And his supporters continue trying to free him. And everybody's - and you know, there's a lot of tweets, like, you know, I just broke my TV with the last card of White Boy, you know. And what happened was, you know, since we made an outrage film, and since we made the call to action, people are like, tweeting the president who couldn't affect this case, because it was a state case that he was actually in for then, and tweeting the governor of Michigan who would have no effect in Florida; tweeted the governor in Florida, but in fact, several months ago, he actually was released from Florida, and he is a free man now - finally: a grandfather; went in as a boy.

Matthew 27:03
Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. I mean, that was just I couldn't believe that even - whole, element that, you know, they wouldn't even let him serve that - Again, you know, we won't go into details, because, but another case...

Shawn Rech 27:16
There was a reason.

Matthew 27:17
There was a reason but another, you know, they - Yeah, exactly: not let him serve it concurrently, but tacked it on at the end. So, there he is, he finally gets parole. Now. He's got to serve another five years, potentially, in Florida. I mean, how does it make you feel because it's a call to action film, you've very committed to your, to your cause and what you just told us about the Daily Mail; yet, here it is: mission accomplished, if you will, and yet people are still drawn to this film must make you feel feel good about the film that you - you've created.

Shawn Rech 27:50
Yeah, it's got a different purpose now, it's a historical piece, isn't it? You know, a lot of people said this really brought them back to a lot of people in Wayne County, Michigan; said this brought them back to the 80s, you know, some even nostalgically, you know, saying 'Boy, I forgot how fun it was back then!' Shows you their mindset. You know, you learn a lot from Twitter and Instagram when you release a movie like this, you know,

Matthew 28:21
Before we - because I - that does raise some more points I would like to discuss with you about these sort of films. But you did mention that you've, you've mentioned Nathaniel Boone Craft, the hitman, I think not just charged, convicted of 30 hits I believe...

Shawn Rech 28:38
Confessed to 30 murders.

Matthew 28:40
Confessed to 30 murders... Does less time than Richard Wershe, doesn't he; I think...

Shawn Rech 28:46
Let me tell you what happened. He was doing all these hits for several drug gangs and and for the Medellin cartel. He was their hitman. They were the ones who demanded body parts, okay, as proof of hits. So, he was a prolific hitman. And what happened was, there was one hit that - okay; so, somebody killed his brother. And he decided that was the end of him being a gangster. He was apparently close with his brother and one of those gangs that he'd worked for, killed his brother. And he went into the Feds and told them who did it; told them what he heard. And they said, 'Look, we could get you right now. We know you killed so and so'. He was done with his life of crime. And he said, 'You know what, I'll...' This is the way it was explained to me. I - this may be slightly off but I think this is what happened. They said 'Okay, we're going to make you a deal. We're going to give you...' I don't remember what it was. '10 years for that murder, but you have to do a disclosure sheet. And as part of that, you have to tell us everything you know. And that's part of signing this deal'. So, he signed the deal, agreed to the years, and in his disclosure, wrote down everything you knew, including the 30 people he killed, and his lawyer went in... The prosecutors are like the deal's off. The deal's off, we didn't know you killed all these people. And he said, 'No, you have to stick to your deal'. His attorney went in and fought, and the judge agreed with Nathaniel Craft's attorney and said, 'No, we've got a hold to this deal'. So, he may come off like a simple man. But that was a pretty sophisticated way to beat all those charges.

Matthew 30:52
I mean, his interview is quite amazing. I mean, he doesn't go into details about being a hitman, but in some ways, but I mean, just even... Well, I'll - maybe I'll leave it at there, because we've had a few spoiler alerts already, but I think just it's well worth watching for many reasons. But I think that segment was - or segments, because it's interspersed through the film - are quite incredible, actually.

Shawn Rech 31:19
I'll tell you what, let me let me tell you something. Just one funny story. Like I guess it's funny. Maybe it's sad. But we decided, you know, Thom Powers, who programs DOC NYC and the Toronto Film Festival - Toronto International Film Festival - Thom wanted White Boy for DOC NYC. And we asked his permission to premiere it first at Freep, the Free - the Detroit Free Press Film Festival. And they really did a first class job. And then we were in the Detroit Institute of Arts in a 1000 seat theater, and it's sold out. And it was this gigantic, gigantic showing of the movie and it was on opening day, we ended up winning the Audience Choice Award for the Freep Film Festival. But two things about the Nathaniel Boone Craft who was in the audience, nobody knew he was in the audience. So they're watching this thing. And about halfway through, somebody says something funny, and you hear this - 'Ha ha ha!'. I was in the front panel with Chris Hanson. 1000 heads turned with horror on their face saying, Oh my God, that's the guy. And they turn around and they see the Nathaniel Boone Craft two rows from the back with about eight family members laughing his butt off at some very dark joke. And everybody turned their heads and everybody looks different after that, but I'm gonna tell you something else. Afterwards... picture like, the steps that Rocky ran up in, you know, in Philadelphia, the front of the Detroit Institute of Art has, like, some steps like that - if I remember correctly; Nathaniel Boone Craft was on the steps, taking selfies with people for an hour. He was the star of that movie. I want to make - I want to make a scripted film about his life so badly. But it's just you know, it's tough to work things out. sometimes. I've stil - I would still like to do it.

Matthew 33:29
He almost reminds me some Hollywood actor, you know?

Shawn Rech 33:33
Oh, there are a couple of them who would be perfect. Tiny Lister, I think just passed away, he would have been good. Believe me, I've been thinking about that. But isn't it weird that you know, most likable character killed 30 people? What's wrong with us? You know, but I - he was the most - probably the most likable guy in the movie.

Matthew 33:53
You know, I don't need - it's an interesting one.

Shawn Rech 33:56
I should say, entertaining.

Matthew 33:58
Entertain - yeah, maybe entertaining's better. But he's interesting. We don't need to get into theological discussion. But he's talking about, I think towards the end there. He says, 'Why? I know I'm going to hell'. But you know, he kinda like...

Shawn Rech 34:12
I stopped the camera when he said that. And I said, we're making a movie about the gospel right now. I'm being educated. And I said, I just want you to know that that's not true. I want you to know that that's not true. You don't have to go to hell. And he just kind of shrugged his shoulders.

Matthew 34:32
Interesting.

Shawn Rech 34:33
Yeah.

Matthew 34:34
Cuz I had this similar thought in my head as well. That's very interesting. Well, you mentioned, too, that while you're interviewing him, Ricky, Richard Wershe actually called him on - is that right? When you're interviewing...

Shawn Rech 34:47
Richard Wershe called Nathaniel Craft during the interview, and it was like old chums week. Like, they were just laughing and he's like - it was like, sorry about that, man. He goes, 'There's no hit on you, now; I don't give a crap. But I don't do that anymore. And it's cool. I have no hard feelings'. That was an amazing moment. And, uh, but I'll tell you the more amazing moment was that Rick called Johnny Curry during his interview and said, 'Johnny, I, you know, I'm gonna get out eventually, I hope we don't have a problem'. And Johnny said, 'Rick, the way I see it, that was a different life. And we both survived'. And that's what he said to him to put him at ease. He said, it was a different life. We both got through. You know, you were a stupid kid. You didn't know what to do. And, and I - sounded to me like he forgave him, or that they forgave each other, but I can't speak for, I can't speak for Rick.

Matthew 35:57
Well, it's almost like veterans of a war. They were on opposing sides.

Shawn Rech 36:03
Like when - it's like when the old timers go visit the Japanese guys on the islands. You know what I mean?

Matthew 36:11
I mean, so, Richard's out. I mean, has he benefited at all from like this - I mean, can he benefit from you know, we know that this scripted, Matthew McConaughey film came out a couple years ago that's nominally about - it's based on his life. But...

Shawn Rech 36:31
Yeah, they took license with it, you know; Yann Demange and Scott Franklin and Scott Silver, the writer. He also wrote the Joker movie there. These are big time guys. They came into our office and watched cuts of this and gave us notes. They were awesome. They didn't see us as competition at all. Because they were filming that in Cleveland, where we are. So, they were incredible partners, and - with us; we thanked them in the credits. And Yann Demange who English people would know him for producing Top Boy. He said, 'Hey, you know, we're taking license, we have to make this entertainment. So, if anybody says this isn't true to the story, I'm going to say just watch Shawn's doc'. I said, 'Cool!'.

Matthew 37:21
Well, that's it. I think that's an interesting point. Because I've I've been privy to conversations where people are saying, well, I want to make this doc, but I know, there's this scripted narrative coming out, you know, are they you know, but there's really no, there's no conflict there, is there; if it's done right. I mean, you know.

Shawn Rech 37:41
Usually a doc precedes the scripted, you know, but I just, you know, they knew we weren't going to hurt them. We weren't going to hurt them that - when you have Bel Pawley and Matthew McConaughey and Bruce Stern, I mean, you're, you know, that's a big. That was a big deal...

Intro 38:01
And the writers behind the Joker and stuff like that. Yeah, you're gonna be...

Shawn Rech 38:04
Right. Eactly. Well, and, you know, Scott Franklin is Darren Aronofsky's partner; these are these are big, big people.

Matthew 38:13
Getting back to some of your film. And some of the things you were actually touching on before we kind of - I gladly digressed, to talk about some of these other characters. One thing that comes up, and I think it's this role of journalism in the justice system, I think it's something that even comes up. I'm not gonna take credit for this. I think it's in one of your bios, actually, but that maybe you can tell us a little bit about what your your experience having made these sort of films over the years; I think it's a subtle, often unexplored part of the genre about the role of journalism in the justice system.

Shawn Rech 38:52
Well, I'll tell you the whole arc, the first movie we made was called A Murder In The Park. And we attempted to expose something called 'the innocence industry', which is some people describe as a cabal between attorneys who make an awful lot of money getting people out, and journalists who act as their PR machine. And we focused on Northwestern University at the time with the Anthony Porter case, that's what A Murder In The Park is about. And the, you know, we found out that, you know, the guy who wrote the most about the case and called for the release, never read the police report and saw that there were other witnesses. And I realized that journalists sometimes lean so hard on their sources that they don't - if they have a couple of wins with them, but other stories stop, they stop fact check. So, we were critical of that, and we were critical, the media's role of the railroading of the guy we thought was innocent and in Detroit, you know, it wasn't as egregious in Detroit because it was the police and other government people who were feeding bad info to the media. So, I'm not gonna say it was as egregious as the Chicago situation we dealt with. And now, interestingly enough, if you don't mind, you know, we're making a 10 part docu series that analyzes the murder of Teresa Halbach. And the series Making a Murderer we actually are making a docu series about a docu series. And...

Matthew 40:39
That was next on my list, by the way. So yeah, so feel free.

Shawn Rech 40:43
So here's the here's the deal. Go watch Making a Murderer: Making a Murderer helped our films. Because when everybody wanted more of - I watched it and loved it, okay, and I was outraged. And, you know, all of a sudden, all these lists were popping up. If you want to see more films, like Making A Murderer, watch these, and we were on most of those lists with A Murder In A Park. So, all of a sudden, our TVOD sales are shooting up and my, you know, whatever the stupid star meter on IMDB is shooting up. And all these things are happening. I'm like, wow, that - they really helped us. You know, and they broke a lot of filmmaking rules, too, which I love that they broke they had, they had eight minute scenes, you know, I would never have any courtroom scene like that long. And they just did it. And it was like, you know what, I stayed glued to the screen. So they proved it could work. I love that they broke those rules. But, here's the thing. In the last 15 or 20 years, what was our news media has responded to the market, and decided that they have to choose sides. And you've got the liberal media, and you've got the conservative media. So you know, not to be super self-important here, but I think that guys like you guys, guys like us, and others - Tyler, me, some other people you've interviewed on your show - there are 1000 of us, I think we are filling the gap with deep dive long form journalism. Even if it's advocacy, as long as we're transparent about it being advocacy. But in Making A Murderer, as people will see in this series, wherever it ends up, because we haven't even shot yet, but it's almost done. You're gonna see how the truth was manipulated, horribly. I mean, egregious. And we're going to call on the filmmaking community to adopt the voluntary, you know, code of conduct, code of ethical standards similar to those that attorneys and physicians and, you know, journalists have to adhere to, because I consider it long form journalism, a lot of people, there's a big debate out there. No, it's filmmaking, it's entertainment. Well, you can't entertain at the expense of people's lives. And Making a Murderer destroyed people's lives. So, we're just going to tell the whole story, but we're also going to look at the - we're going to criticize, you know, the filmmakers to be honest with you, and show why, you know, we don't we don't shade we show very hard evidence. And then we're going to just start a discussion, hopefully. So, that's the big thing. That's the project that, you know, they're 12 people here full time, six of them are working on that project and have been for four years. So, that's our Gone with the Wind. You know, it'll be done close to the end of the year. But yeah, so everything we, you know, we do some Christian films too. We did American Gospel: Christ Alone, American Gospel: Christ Crucified, that's sort of its own little division, okay. But everything else, yeah, there's always an element of media analysis. And, again, not to sound too high minded but of, correcting history and correcting the record.

Matthew 44:14
I agree. And I think that's - I mean, if speaking personally, I will say, yeah, I find myself just often lost because as you say, there's medias now, if it was maybe it was always slanted in different ways, and then definitely had more of a rise of conservative media but then it's become - well, one way of saying is it's become some people said it's become actively partisan, but I think I like the way you say it, it's whether it's partisan or not, they definitely choose sides now, and then that narrative is the lens they see everything through.

Shawn Rech 44:53
They choose sides and they preach to the choir; they are not changing hearts and minds.

Matthew 44:58
Exactly. They have their echo chambers.

Shawn Rech 45:01
Yep.

Matthew 45:01
Yep. And so I found that what I like about meeting people like yourself and other great film documentary filmmakers, I sense, you know, I can - you can get in these discussions and I can sense I pretty good idea of who he voted for and who she voted for and things like that, that I don't - I don't mind that. What I do find is that no, the good, the good filmmakers are not hacks, they they go for, you know, they may have their own political or philosophical viewpoints on life. But when it comes to actually trying to get to the truth of things. I think we are all, as you say, trying to become the long form journalists that are lacking.

Shawn Rech 45:48
Right, but we can't betray that trust. And that's why I'm worried for our industry. And that's why we're making this piece. And you know, it may be as big as Making A Murderer, or it may be something they show at film school, I don't know. But it's, believe me, it's - all 10 hours are as entertaining as White Boy, when this thing comes out.

Matthew 46:15
Well, I think - I hope - I mean, I'm looking forward to it. I mean, one thing I was gonna say, and you've already answered that; do you think True Crime docs bear some blame? I mean, the one thing I have now - I did watch - I've watched Making A Murderer, and this is not about, as you said, you really like, you know, there's a reason I watched it. If I didn't find it enjoyable, I wouldn't have watched more than a couple episodes. But in now tried to get into the second season, I'm a little bit late to it. But it seemed to me even there the filmmakers realized even in that first season, that it seems sometimes you realize, well, you know, my wife come in and what about the victims here? You know, there's a lot of stuff that seemed to get kind of lost by the wayside. And I guess that's what your film - that's what well, you were calling it Convicting A Murderer, but is it just going to be called Convicting?

Shawn Rech 47:11
It's called Convicting because they convicted someone to filmmakers. So, I'll get that out of the bag. It's - and the public convicted other people in that, you know, as a result. By the way, if you go - and there are so many Redditors who spend so many hours of their lives on this Steven Avery, they perceive as an injustice, okay? If you go on there 99% of the arguments that they make, were not in the film. This is like newly discovered stuff. This is like if you watched Don't Eff With Cat all that's got a life of its own, or there was another documentary about the Boston Marathon bombings and what happened on Reddit? You know, it's like that it took on a life of its own, they've already actually discredited most of what was in Making A Murderer - that community; they have a list of rules, it's like we already know the blood vial is irrelevant. We already know this, that. Like so they - it's like we hear the things we accept. No one wants, like in a lawsuit, the declarations of boasts both sides are willing to agree on, you know, so they know that the most of the points brought up in the original series aren't valid anymore, but it's still set them down this path. That's part of what we're - I mean, we're talking to group psychologists like, what's up, and we've got the stories of several people who like, I mean, their marriages were at stake over their obsession with this case. So we've got human stories, we've got this analysis of the media. We've got this analysis of the filmmaking and then we've got the the actual facts of the case were left out. They're gonna hear from all the people who did not do interviews, the original Making A Murderer.

Matthew 49:00
That's sounds really interesting. And also, I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't ask you one last question. So, has supposedly someone else confessed to the Halbach murder? That's something that came out supposedly in Newsweek and...

Shawn Rech 49:15
Yeah, a guy confessed to me, okay. Yes, he confessed to the Halbach murder. And his confession was ridiculous.

Matthew 49:25
Okay.

Shawn Rech 49:26
He was the same person who said Steven Avery confessed to him so we now know he's a liar, at least on one of those occasions, so his credibility is gone. We were going to mention - I mean, we'll mention it because it was it's a beat, okay. We got this thing but the guy, he did that right after Stephen's attorney offered a reward. So what he was trying to do was get his wife the reward, by confessing; that's my hypothesis, okay. So, he was - he'd set it up to try and get his wife the reward by confessing because he was never going to get out, because he was a convicted murderer. So, that ended up being bogus. We didn't know how much credibility there was. But yes, did we use it to get some attention? I'm afraid we did. Part of this business.

Matthew 50:18
Yeah. Speaking about getting attention and maybe getting back to, to White Boy, why did it take so long for Netflix to pick this up?

Shawn Rech 50:32
I'll - you guys, I mean, I, I'm assuming a lot of filmmakers watch your program, too. So sorry, to the general public for this shop talk. But I'll just tell you guys, since you're filmmakers: we thought it would be picked up as a Netflix Original, okay; our agents Submarine Entertainment, proposed it from what I understand. And they were considering it. And then the whole industry was shaken up with something that happened in Amazon, where they just stopped buying for about six months. And then Netflix really didn't have any competition at the time. And they weren't in any hurry to do anything. And then they basically - you know, we make everything on spec and then sell it. So, it's not like it would have been a co-production. So, they basically passed on it and said, maybe we'll license it later. I was really frustrated. So we went to an aggregator. We didn't even do any deals. I self released. I self released, we were number one on iTunes and, you know, trending a little bit back then in 2017. So, we squeezed the lemon there trying to get our budget back, and succeeded. And then all of a sudden Submarine called and said, Starz wants it for the first window. So, and I did the Starz deal. And then my aggregator, Nick Savva, at Giant, says Netflix wants it. I said I just did the Starz deal. He said okay, they'll take the second window. So, you know, second window pays a lot less. I really wish the first window would have been on Netflix. But thanks to Starz, for airing it for that 18 months. But as soon as it was off Starz, that's when it hit Netflix. But honestly, this is like it was just released because the difference is so profound. When it hit Netflix, it's just that's - you can't argue that it's the most ubiquitous network with the most eyeballs in the world.

Matthew 52:35
Well, I think in - Well, there's that great Ricky Gervais bit from the Golden Globes a couple years ago when he basically said shouldn't we just give everything - all the rewards to Netflix?

Shawn Rech 52:46
I watched a culmination of all his openings. Yeah, I love it. Yes, I saw that.

Matthew 52:51
I mean, I think we are going to talk a little bit because we do a little bit of shop talk. And then I do want to get back to some of the issues, you know, a few more issues with the film. But it's even said in your official bio, you're advocate for self distribution, but all of his films have eventually been licensed to major streaming platforms and networks worldwide. Could you explain - expound on that a little bit?

Shawn Rech 53:15
It started with White Boy. I was so frustrated that Netflix wasn't gonna pick it up. That I said, You know, I don't trust this process. I don't trust the bundling process. If an aggregator - and I love Submarine and I love Giant Interactive, that's our agents, and our aggregators, and I love Cineflix, our foreign agents, they're all awesome, and great to deal with; IFC was great to deal with on our first job. Okay, so I'm not saying this ever happened to us, but I worry. Because a lot of these companies are owners of some of the films they are repping, okay? They're owners, they're executive producers, some of the films; so, when they sit and they bring a package of 15 films, and Netflix says, 'Well, okay, we'll give you 30 million bucks or with that 10 million bucks'. They get to decide the tent poles. And they can pick their own and say, 'Look, these are the things that carried the deal'. They happen to be the things that they own; so, no, we're not splitting this evenly, you're going to get x and because so many of us documentary filmmakers act like we're so desperate for the attention. You know, we say yes to the first offer. We've got to stop doing that. But I'm an advocate for self distribution. Because before we didn't have anywhere else to go; now, we have an option. So it's like, no, we can just have a relationship with the viewer. And if you're PR savvy, which we've learned to be, and you can get the word out about your project, people will pay the four bucks to rent an entertaining movie, or now with, you know, AVOD, you know, they'll they'll sit through a few ads to watch your movie, and you can even get monetized that way. So. it's - I just love having a backup plan. I know that if I don't get the right offer for Convicted, we have a backup plan. Nobody has to buy it, and it will be in almost every home in the world. I'm not going to tell you what the plan is, but we've always had that backup. But we've never sweated it. We're gonna offer it to Netflix first, because it's kind of their brand, right? So we'll offer it to them. And if they don't want it, cool. Others have reached out wanting it, but they're big players. So, that's - we, we didn't make any - we didn't even send them a clip, yet. So, but I'm an advocate for self-distribution. So, whoever we're dealing with knows we have other options. And you can, you know, we made this Christian film American Gospel: Christ Alone. My creative director is a devout Christian with a very straight walk, who believes in a specific, and as I do, although I'm a really lousy example of a Christian, but he believes in a specific form of reformed Christianity. And he went through a process of learning and unlearning some what he considered errors. And we made this movie called American Gospel and everybody kind of were like, yeah, you know, go with the Pure Flix. And it was, you know, I was like, no, this could this - we could do something with this, I think; I didn't know what it would do. He asked me if I would make that film for if, you know, he made the films, it was all his work, and we just paid for it, okay. But I didn't know what it would do. I thought it was almost like a donation to thank him for being such a loyal guy who started as our first intern. Now he could go to Hollywood any day he wanted. American Gospel comes out, it may be the highest grossing, independent, self released doc in history. I mean, it's millions of dollars, has been grossed on this thing that I thought was a throwaway. So much so that we have a sequel that came out afterwards. It's just trust. We have two more coming the end of this year. And we started a streaming network called Watch HGTV that is now profitable, just from from that endeavor. So we didn't need anybody and guess who licensed American Gospel?

Matthew 57:21
Netflix did.

Shawn Rech 57:22
Netflix. Yeah! So like, even they saw that there was kind of an audience for this. So, I'm not to sound cocky. But it's just like, they, they've they treat you like you work at Starbucks, and that you're going to get excited about an advance that's one third of what you paid to make the film. And I refuse to do it. And I think we should all refuse to do it. I sound like a union leader. But then we really - we have to stop giving our work away.

Matthew 57:50
Yeah, I think that's the that's always this - well, in a lot of creative industries. But I think that's a very good point. It's, well, well taken in terms of what we can, you know, filmmakers can do in terms of making sure they - look, it's not about maximizing profit, but just to get what your just desserts, basically.

Shawn Rech 58:12
That's our job. That's our job. We have to be paid for what we do. Don't, don't tell us to get a grant and put it on PBS. No, no, I mean, I love PBS, but just, you know, we want to hit the market. We choose marketable subjects. I'll be honest, you know, I have to make sure the story's catchy. You know, I'm not gonna make a documentary on the manufacturing of curtains in 1880. I know nobody's gonna watch it.

Matthew 58:41
Well, I mean, unless you find a very compelling angle on that, but I think, but I mean, I think it's a - I mean, I'm relatively new to this industry. But one thing that struck me every time I went have conversations with filmmakers in the documentary space always like, well, no one gets rich from making documentaries. And yeah, okay, fine, I get that...

Shawn Rech 59:03
I plan on it. I haven't yet, but I plan on it.

Matthew 59:05
But I think it becomes a bit self defeating, if you're not thinking in terms of, at least...

Shawn Rech 59:11
Listen...

Matthew 59:12
You know...

Shawn Rech 59:12
Netflix yesterday, paid $30 million for a docu series made by two guys who produce rap videos, because they had access to Kanye West for 20 years. It'd be $30 million for I think an eight parter, okay? You can you can get rich in a documentary business, if you have the right access, if you pick the right stories. And, of course, if you have production values, you can't make a piece of garbage.

Matthew 59:40
Yeah. Well, Shawn, I think I must say we're trying - kind of getting to the end of our time together, unfortunately, at least, certainly for me. I just - before we go and before I ask you I think I have a pretty good idea of what's next in line for you and Transition Studios. But in terms of White Boy, I mean, maybe we leave it there with, you know, what do you want its legacy to be? What is it? I mean, you've now done more than a few of these - does it have anything to say about what needs to happen with the criminal justice system in the US and what can be done?

Shawn Rech 1:00:20
There are a lot of other movies with this goal. But we're joining in the chorus that says, Don't always trust the government. And don't always trust the media, do your own investigating, and vet your sources. That's the message.

Matthew 1:00:40
I think that's a good way to end on that point. And then the one last thing I will ask you is what is next besides - well, I think you've already said you've got Convicting, you've got some sequels to American Gospel, anything else?

Shawn Rech 1:00:54
Yeah, we do. Because of the - another way we bootstrap and save money is rather than gigging everybody out on day rates, we just, they're here full time. We pay salaries. So we have to have some - because there are peaks and valleys and production and post production, we always have to have multiple projects going. So we've kind of settled it always having either five, going at a time either movies or series. So it's very odd, six projects are all ending this fall. So we're going to, we're going to be releasing a series on the murder of the nuns in El Salvador, in 1980: two New York and two Cleveland nuns were murdered in El Salvador. And it's a crazy story. And that's called that's, we believe that work in the working title Salvador, and that'll probably stick. We've got a movie about a girl in Indiana University who went missing 10 years ago, she was from New York City. She was a young, wealthy, from a wealthy family. And all the suspects in the case, are young people from wealthy families. And it seems like there might be a bit of a cover up or a possible conspiracy going on, we're going to examine that. That's called Missing Lauren Spear. We've got the two gospel films, and we've got an unbelievable story called Wrong Cat, which is a docu series that we're going to finish up which is about the longest wrongful conviction in US history. With tentacles, this case has tentacles that go all the way back to the murder, the execution of Fred Hampton, and his bodyguard, Mark Clark in Chicago in 1969.

Matthew 1:02:30
Amazing, amazing. Wow, that's quite impressive and much appreciated. Because number times I get filmmakers that tell me 'Well, I really can't tell you what, what we're working on next'. Well, Shawn, it's been a pleasure having you on.

Shawn Rech 1:02:47
Thank you.

Matthew 1:02:48
And really, really nice to meet you and get to know your stuff a bit better. And to find out more about you and the film in question, which is White Boy and also Transition Studios. They're in Cleveland. So if we haven't scared you off when one of those next projects drops, we'd love to have you on again.

Shawn Rech 1:03:08
Definitely. I'll be happy to be on.

Matthew 1:03:10
So I want to thank Sean Rech again, the producer and director of White Boy, which is streaming on Netflix worldwide. If you have any questions regarding how you can become a documentary director and producer like Shawn Rech or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com to learn more about careers in the film industry. I want to give a shout out to our engineer Freddy Besbrode, and the rest of the team at This is distorted Studios in Leeds, England. And as always a big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Shawn on to the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:04:09
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo Pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk.

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White Boy Rick: A Call for a Better American Justice System

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