The Notorious B.I.G. Has Got a Hip-Hop Story to Tell

Today, we’re talking about Christopher Wallace, aka Biggie Smalls or The Notorious B.I.G., the acclaimed rapper who was tragically murdered at the age of just 24 in a drive-by shooting.

Talking to us about Biggie Smalls' life and his legacy on hip-hop is Grammy-award-winning director Emmett Malloy, who directed and produced the original Netflix documentary Biggie: I Got a Story to Tell. 

We talk about who Christopher Wallace really was, as well as how Emmett got access to never-before-seen footage used in the film. With this documentary, Emmett succeeds in shining a different light on Biggie’s life, onto his artistic side and childhood influences that other filmmakers may have overlooked.

My goal was to present him as the artist he was, so people understand that greatness doesn’t come from nowhere, people work at it and this kid was a curious kid with a tremendous artistic gift. - Emmett Malloy

Time Stamps:

00:23 - The trailer for Biggie: I Got a Story to Tell.
04:33 - How well the film has been received on Netflix.
05:38 - What the film is about and who Christopher Wallace really was.
07:54 - What happened when Emmett first met Biggie's mother.
11:58 - What Biggie’s childhood was like, and the relationship with his mother.
13:29 - The way Emmett used maps to show the close-knit world of Biggie's Brooklyn.
15:20 - How Emmett won everyone’s trust and got his interviewees to fully open up.
17:18 - How he got access to D-Roc and going to Jamaica with Miss Wallace.
20:46 - The personal nature of the interviews and interviewing Puff Daddy.
25:33 - How they decided on the name for the movie.
30:30 - Where Biggie got his mic presence from, and what influenced his musical prowess.
32:25 - The way Biggie shone through in his live rap battles and became a sex symbol.
38:09 - Why Emmett didn’t explore in depth issues covered by previous docs.
41:34 - The legacy of The Notorious B.I.G. and the impact he’s had on hip-hop.
45:30 - What dangerous Brooklyn was in the 1980s.
49:59 - What’s Emmett’s next plans are.  

Resources:

Biggie: I Got a Story to Tell (2021)  
This is Distorted Studios
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Emmett Malloy:

IMDb

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 57: The Notorious B.I.G. Has Got a Hip-Hop Story to Tell

Emmett Malloy 00:00
Cool, so Emmett Malloy, I am the middle child of John and Betsy Malloy, five kids from Los Angeles, you know, dead center LA, and yeah, I'm a film director.

Big 00:16
That's all it was. That's all it was, was a dream.

Speaker 1 00:25
Something special's about to happen. My boy get three hairs, he get nervous.

Big 00:32
Yeah, I can't be, you know, looking like, you know, 21. Got a keep that 18 feel, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 00:38
That 18 feel. No diggity.

Speaker 2 00:41
My son was a very smart kid.

Speaker 3 00:44
He was already writing since elementary.

Speaker 4 00:47
I was initially trying to groom Chris to be a jazz artist because he was so talented.

00:52
Every summer, Chris would come back from Jamaica. He would be a sponge to just so much more that was outside of our scope.

Speaker 5 01:00
He was like, I gotta get us off the streets.

Big 01:04
I was trying to rip the hardest rhymes.

Speaker 4 01:13
A lot of the bad decisions came from wanting to provide.

Speaker 3 01:17
He told me he was working; I believed him.

Speaker 6 01:20
You want to do this? I need you to commit to this.

Big 01:23
Getting plenty of dough.

Speaker 6 01:24
No, you can't do both.

Speaker 3 01:26
He disrespected my house. That wasn't my son.

Speaker 2 01:32
You don't understand, man. Having to sell drugs on the corner, to this.

Speaker 6 01:41
He is the hottest thing smoking right now.

Big 01:42
Your boy had to get right with Coogis.

Speaker 2 01:44
All the time. Where we at? Where we at y'all?

Speaker 7 01:48
We in Detroit.

Speaker 4 01:50
Biggie blew up overnight. You have no origins for what rap planet this guy came from.

Speaker 3 02:00
I was happy that he was making something with his life.

Big 02:06
Peace and love.

Speaker 6 02:10
Big had a gift, a talent that saved a lot of people's lives but his.

Big 02:26
We're just gonna do our thing. Forever. Forever and ever.

Matthew 02:40
That is a trailer from the original Netflix documentary Biggie: I Got A Story To Tell. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Today, we're talking about Christopher Wallace aka Biggie Smalls or The Notorious BIG, the acclaimed rapper who was tragically murdered at the age of just 24 in a drive-by shooting. Talking to us about the Notorious BIG's life and his legacy on hip hop is Emmett Malloy, the Grammy Award winning director and producer of Biggie: I got a Story to Tell. Emmett, welcome to Factual America.

Emmett Malloy 03:23
Thank you. Great to speak with you. And yeah, it's been a minute since I talked about this film, so, I feel I'm back excited again. I got a fresh, fresh tank.

Matthew 03:37
Okay, great. I mean, how are things with you there in California?

Emmett Malloy 03:42
Yeah, real good. You know, just kinda I think, like everybody, we're bouncing back a little bit. I got my second vaccine yesterday. So I felt like that was a, you know, weirdly emotional. And yeah, it's kind of feeling like, whatever, there's some optimism brewing. So I'm certainly a good purveyor of optimism.

Matthew 04:03
Yeah, I agree. I've had one. I'm waiting for the second dose.

Emmett Malloy 04:07
Yeah, good.

Matthew 04:08
But yeah, starting to feel - my wife had her second one a few days ago. So, yeah, who knew we'd be, a year and a half ago, we'd all be excited about getting vaccinated.

Emmett Malloy 04:19
Just insane.

Matthew 04:21
So, again, the film Biggie: I Got A Story To Tell dropped on Netflix, I think in March. I think it's been doing quite well, hasn't it?

Emmett Malloy 04:32
Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, it's been a hit for them, which just for me, it's been so exciting because not often do all the planets align. And this one just had that swirl around it, which has been just so fun to have something you work on for so long get eyeballs and get people, you know, talking about it.

Matthew 04:56
Well, and I think you've got a great subject, don't you, to help make that happen. I mean, for someone of my age, and grew up in the US and yourself included, maybe it's a bit odd to say, you know, to tell people who Notorious BIG was or whatever. But I mean, it's hard to believe it's been almost 25 years since his tragic death. So maybe you can give us a synopsis - well, who was he? And then also what's this film about?

Emmett Malloy 05:30
Well, I think I'll start with what the film is about because I think that 'who is he?' will just come out of that. You know, my pitch always, obviously - I was born right about the same time as Christopher Wallace - we're a month apart. Both Geminis, so you know, certainly couldn't be more in line with my arc of life and just as far as, you know, being part of witnessing him, but I wasn't a huge Biggie guy. I wasn't like, I mean, I knew all the big songs and everything. But you know, I was on the west coast. And NWA and Dre and Snoop, they were more my flavor. But to be honest, I was listening to the Grateful Dead. You know, like, that's the upbringing I had musically, to be honest, and punk music. So, you know, my only point was, I came to this as a bit of an outsider. More as a filmmaker, somebody interested in great stories with obviously iconic people; if you could ever get those, I'm always in the mood. And music. I've made a lot of music films, and are a big part of that tradition of filmmaking. So, there was a lot of lanes in for me, but my goal always when I got - when this project became something where the estate said they were making a film, and some friends of mine brought it up and said, would you ever be interested in this? And I was like, yeah, of course. So, I pitched my idea. And my idea was simply as like, I don't feel like anybody's ever stopped and focused on the first 20 years of his life. Every film fast forwards through that, and really gets to kind of post Ready to Die - really gets to when he was fully formed as The Notorious BIG and really quickly to the Tupac saga. And that just felt odd to me. And that's where I began digging. And then, you know, that was my idea of, you know, I want to make a film about him that celebrates his life. And that got me in the door and got me a lunch with Miss Wallace. And from there, I was able to get a lot more of the exciting elements. I was able to build my film around.

Matthew 07:54
Did the estate approach you? How did that - how did that happen?

Emmett Malloy 07:59
Yeah. It was more, the producers on my film, they do a lot of documentary films, they had worked on 20 Feet from Stardom and Searching for Sugar Man, to name a few that felt - that got my attention. I had a relationship with them. And they began to work out the dynamics of getting the rights and the excitement of the estate. Once they got that then they went to a short run of filmmakers to say these are the filmmakers we feel would be great fits. Let's hear ideas from all of them. And that's what I was able to get. I got in through that door and then was pitching my ideas to Wayne Barrow, the manager and Miss Wallace. And then, when they got excited about my take and my body of work, I was then brought to meet her and sit and chat with her. And that was just a classic experience for me. And, you know, to go show up at her house in New Jersey, the house her son bought for her before he died. The house he was gonna live in. You know, to go sit with her. I kind of feel like she might be the most famous living mother. I can't think of another mother that has gained so much, you know, notoriety and had such a big presence. So, it was fun. We went to the Red Lobster, very nice for lunch! She ordered a Bahama Mama and we got to chat and certainly right out of the gates, it was right into her upbringing in Jamaica and how she took her son there every summer of his life and that was revelatory to me. I was like, I can't believe this isn't real prominent in every story I've heard about him. And it was cool because it wasn't just us trying to be like, oh, you know, you went to Jamaica - so that's why his music feels like that. It was more just to, it was cool to understand the culture and the household he grew up in. And what, who he was, and the fabric of who he was. And that's the stuff that started to really be in sync with the pitch, you know. 'Cause when you make a pitch it's like, you're just pitching stuff. And then sometimes they really like it. And then you're like, oh, crud, like, what am I going to do here? What am I going to put on screen? You know; so, that was real cool for me, for my kind of lofty idea to be met with some great stories.

Matthew 10:41
Well, I think you raise a good point. Because she is a bit of, she's the star of this film, isn't she? I mean, in a way. I mean, she's quite a character.

Emmett Malloy 10:50
She is, without a doubt. I mean, she's a great storyteller. And she's super animated. She's incredibly confident, which you've seen, you know, you saw leaving Jamaica at 16 to land in Brooklyn, and pull it off, and then have a kid right away. You know, and have a dad that just split as soon as, you know, was married and in another relationship and was lying to her the whole time. She pulled through that. So, her confidence is off the charts. And what's fun now is that she's gotten to, you know, tell these stories a lot, some aspects. There's also a competence in her performance that's just insane to sit and chat with. The best part is, like, her stories run against his best friends'. They're miles apart. And that's what I started to see as one of the joys of the film, was that the mother's take, and then what was really going on. And that became a great dynamic in our film.

Matthew 11:54
Well, there's a, I mean, spoiler alert, I guess, but, you know, we find out that she was throwing away some of Biggie's drugs, that she thought was food, they'd gone bad.

Emmett Malloy 12:06
Yeah, well, you know what do you - there was so much innocence; again, she thought her kid, again, he was a very smart kid. She talks so much about that, about his talent. And so in the early years, he was an ace, you know. He was the smartest and most charismatic kid in the class. But, you know, he was cooped up, you know, he was looking down on Brooklyn and wanting to get out and about, you know; he wanted to be like the kids that got to run around. And all they wanted to be is like him. You know, I wish I had a mom that took care of me. So, that became another interesting storyline, which is his desire to kind of get out and be a normal Brooklyn kid. And that was fun to play against, you know, kind of being raised by an immigrant mother. And that was, just a great arc in his story.

Matthew 13:05
I mean, Brooklyn obviously plays large in his life, and in this film. And I think that's a quite, well, main theme. And I think it works quite effectively is the - I know, this isn't gonna sound exciting, but the use of the maps to show how close everyone was and how small this world was that they lived in.

Emmett Malloy 13:28
I agree those maps really, you know, again, after four years of working, when you think about the detail and thought you put into every little bell and whistle on the film, you appreciate any feedback, like, I love the maps, they were so simple. And I'm like, but it wasn't simple for us to get them right. And when we got them right, they really were effective storytellers. And everybody has asked me through talking about this film, you know, how'd you come up with it? And I'm like, I mean, it was easy. Like, when I interviewed, you know, the producer, he would say, I live down two blocks, then you go, right, you go one block, and he would give you these classic descriptions, and it just laid itself out right for us of. Like, man, this is crazy. They're all like, at times, one of them lived on top of the other in a project, you know, style of living. And he would just look out the window and the other dude would look up and he'd be like, explain it the same way. He lived two windows down, then look to the right. And you know, that just became the classic aspect of our film. And what was cool is that these guys, you know, they're very private. This is a very dear, you know, this is their best friend and this story still stings to them to this day. So, it was a long process to get them to open up to me the way they did. And that was probably the most difficult part of this for me being so much of an outsider and coming in on something that had been mined over for 25 years. These people have been in a million things talking about this. And I bet you two of them turned out the way they hoped they would or, you know. And so, I went into it with all that sort of, you know, kind of standoffishness. And, you know, that's where I do well. I'm a very, whatever, I tell the truth. If I'm going to do something and say, I'm going to do it, I'm going to live up to it. And these are the types of films where I have to get everybody's trust that I tend to do well with, as long as there's like, we can get there at some point, if the access is truly there, I can usually get it. Just because I'm, you know, a good guy like that. I'm not a sensationalist filmmaker. I want to, I want everybody on my side. If I can - I'm going to make the best film about your son and friend, you got to trust me, and if we can't get there, then it's hopeless. So, that was a process, but it's super rewarding payoff in the end, because guys like D-ROC, who is the other star of the film, that was a really long - that was probably the most complex journey I went on on this film, is to get him to finally feel like this was the one to share his personal diaries with. And that was - will be one of the best memories is the, you know, kind of the friendship we built. The odd couple.

Matthew 16:36
I won't ask which one's Felix and which one... but anyway. The thing is, that's an interesting point, because a lot of times the way - I'm sure our listeners will know - a lot of times the way these sort of projects might have worked - and that's why I kind of thought this might have worked, someone said, 'Oh, there's this never before seen footage. Let's hang a doc around it', right. Which can or cannot work. But that's not - it's because you got to know D-ROC. And he said, 'Well, by the way, did you know I have all this stuff we used to shoot, you know, on tour?'

Emmett Malloy 17:15
It was a little bit of both, you know. In the sense of like, I knew this stuff existed, because it was kind of coming up in the first conversations; and the management, Wayne, who was a producer on the film, was like, you know, this will be, we got to get him on our side, you know. And so, you know, it was funny like that one, truthfully, is just a classic first story of making a film. I mean, one thing that I scored on early is my first trip on this film was to Jamaica, I went with Miss Wallace. Those were the, you know, the things that I knew we would be getting. So I went and did that trip right out of the gates and got to sit with his grandmother, meet his uncle. I went so much deeper than I ever thought I could, you know, achieve with that particular trip. So, along the way, I posted a picture on my Instagram of me and Gwendolyn Wallace, his grandmother and just said, 'Man, what a cool experience'. We went on a hike together. You know, and it was truthful, I was more just what an incredible 97 year old woman. What do they got in the water here? You know, when I got back, we went to Brooklyn, we started to do the first set of interviews in Brooklyn, and D-ROC was going to be at the tail end of those interviews. So, you know, kind of came the day for it. I'm there, you know, on documentaries of this size, it wasn't a huge budget. So every day of shooting really is important. And, you know, I had a hot set, I had a great DPA and everything. And D-ROC kind of finally shows up at the end of the day. And, you know, basically just says to me right out the gates, like, 'I'm here, but I'm not doing the interview'. So, I like, okay, you know, all right. That's crazy, you know, to me, like dang, what am I, you know, so how do I handle this? And of course, I was always, you know, I'm not gonna lose; that's one interview in this journey, that you know, it just - So I just like weirdly sat by, like, my crew that were like silhouetted in the lights, we just turned off. And they were, like, awkwardly standing there. And we just proceeded to eat corn nuts and talk for two hours, you know. And he said, the first thing he said is, 'Man, I know you're on the right path, because I saw that picture of Big's grandma. And I can't believe you took the time to sit grandma down'. And it let him know that we were, we were on the path that he probably always felt everybody should be on, but nobody went through with it. And suddenly, at the end, he kind of applauded me for not pressuring him to do an interview before he was ready for it. We then got the chance to really get to know each other. And then the lane was open. We built the friendship and we built the trust that got us through the whole process. And it was, it was a lot for him to share this stuff. And the more I leaned on it as the film went on, the better the film got and the more he came to life in our film, and that was kind of always my goal.

Matthew 20:24
I guess, that's a good point. And what I didn't really appreciate, I have to admit, when I watched was, but you're telling their story as well, aren't you? Their life, their childhood, their youth. Because they were all inextricably linked with Biggie. And so this is very personal for all them too, isn't it?

Emmett Malloy 20:45
Absolutely. And, you know, it's personal in the ways that I also state, is they've been burned a bunch, you know. They've been part of things where maybe they didn't like the way they were presented, or whatever it is, there's been a variety of experiences, and a lot of it, just like the personal interaction of whoever was doing it, you know, maybe didn't rub them right. But yeah, it was all there. And I needed their stories, I needed their faith, I needed their press to dig deep, you know, because I didn't want the story they told already, you know, in that film. I wanted to kind of focus on another phase. And I think it took them a minute to, you know, kind of get in the spirit of that. Especially Puff, you know, luckily, I got to do Puff last. And that was somebody that when he got to watch a lot of what I had edited, he realized that he was the dude that probably knew him the least in my cast of characters. And he understood that the film was this personal testament to him and his friends and this group that he grew up in. And these blocks in Brooklyn that were, you know, so interwoven into this story. And so Puff even got that, you know. He was able to see like, okay, shit, this is like, really the film about him. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's right.

Matthew 22:07
'It's not about you!'

Emmett Malloy 22:09
Yeah, it was cool to not have to, you know, we use him out of the gates in the film, but then he kind of drifts away. And he comes in naturally, when he came into his life. And that was, that was - I think people appreciated that.

Matthew 22:24
And a quick question for you. Do you call him P Diddy or Puff Daddy, what do you call Sean?

Emmett Malloy 22:29
I mean, I called him Puff. But I mean, I called him Sean when I met him, because I, too, was like, confused on which memo I just got in. And I even know that he's called Love, you know, calls himself Love. And I think that's the most current name. And so I just went with Sean just because it was the only, I was kind of nervous. I just kind of whatever came out of my mouth, that's what it was. But I know, I didn't, you know, make him agitated, we carried on right away. So I felt like whatever I did, we set the focus in the moment.

Matthew 23:07
No, it's funny. I've always - I remember - I've always just wondered, not that I will ever run into to Sean P. Diddy Combs or whatever he's being called. But what do you call him?

Emmett Malloy 23:19
Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think it changes a lot. So I think he's got to be used to it by now. Maybe somebody didn't get the new iteration. He's got to be cool with that.

Matthew 23:29
Exactly. Well, I think maybe we'll give our listeners a bit of an early break here and let our sponsor say a few things. And then we'll be right back with Emmett Malloy, director and producer of Biggie: I Got A Story To Tell.

Factual America midroll 23:44
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at Alamo Pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 24:03
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with director and producer Emmett Malloy. The film is the Netflix Original documentary Biggie: I Got A Story To Tell, dropped in March. And we've been talking about telling the story of Biggie's life with a focus maybe where it hasn't been before which is more, he only lived 24 years, but the first 20 years of his life. So we find out interesting things, don't we? I mean, you took this trip to Jamaica, you meet his family - uncle, who played a big part in his life, his grandmother, amazing woman. Find out that he had all kinds of influences in his life. Country music was in his life. There's a lot there. Maybe much more than people realized.

Emmett Malloy 24:54
Yeah, I thought so. You know, I think that's what got me excited about the movie. I definitely didn't feel - there was no new clue on his death or anything that I was, like, you know, had a singular item that would just light people up, you know. So, I had to kind of go back and almost, you know, try to just tell the seminal Biggie movie for a Netflix audience that most of, maybe heard of him or, you know, know a song or two, but many didn't, I guess probably just know the name and probably just know Biggie, Tupac, you know. So that was cool, that I had to kind of be challenged with that, because that - you know, initially I was gonna make this movie, it was called Christopher. I pitched it, that was always going to be the name of it. Christopher, you know, just to kind of lead with the philosophy of the film. This is about the real guy, you know, not the stage persona. And you know, as you kind of get going, and you get into Netflix and their style and the analytics, you're like, Oh, yeah, okay, I'll call it Biggie. No more, you know, not gonna fight for this.

Matthew 26:03
You know, I was just gonna say we had the, one of the directors from Murder Among The Mormons, and they had a different title as well. And Netflix as well. But if you name it Murder among the Mormons, you're going to get a lot more views and hits. And he said, well, they just basically said, what font do you want it in?

Emmett Malloy 26:21
Mine was a teeny bit more romantic. They pandered to me a bit more. And, you know, in the end, it just made sense to call it, I just wanted to call it Biggie. And they seemed to like calling something as well. So I, you know, again, we just, each challenge like that I just dug in and tried to make it a positive. You know, like, okay, if I'm changing it, I want to change it. I don't want it changed for me. Let me just come up with a bunch of names and let's see which one your marketing department feels best about. But let me at least keep the process in our court and present you guys ones and then you pick. And that will feel better to me. But we evolved it from there. And yeah, you know, his life was filled with interesting things. I mean, from his neighbor that played jazz music, you know, played with all the greats, the saxophone player, Donald Harrison. You know, when you sat and talk with him, you know, he started going into these stories about him trying to groom him to be a jazz musician, him taking him to the modern art museums to see Picasso and Van Gogh. That blew my mind. I was just like, people are gonna trip to know that Biggie went to art museums, you know. And again, these were things that my goal was to, like, present him as the artist he was. So people understand that greatness, it just doesn't, you know, it's - people work at it. And this kid was a curious kid with a tremendous artistic gift. And, you know, when I got those stories out of Donald, I was doing this before interviewing them. So I started to be like, okay, dude. So if he listened to Max Roach with you, what song? You know, like, I want to know the song in the detail. And then I was able to go into these interviews in a very advanced place where I was really narrowing in on the story I wanted to tell. Because sometimes, you know, you just got to go there and find it all out. And these ones I kind of, because of how many stories have been told, I kind of knew where I didn't want to go. So, I kept trying to find the Country Music story. You know, where you were like, where people were going to be like, what, I had no idea he listened to country music. He didn't. His mom did. It was just on all the time. So, you take your thing. Yep, country music's great storytelling. Oh, what he had it on the house. I didn't say he did. You know, like, I tried to do that with this film, where people didn't ever try to think we were being like, oh, because of that - this. We had no way to prove it. We could just light up the imagination and help people understand the soundtrack of his life.

Matthew 29:18
I think that's a good point. I mean, Donald Harrison, straight out of central casting for a jazz musician. He's great. And the Max Roach bit was excellent. I thought that was really interesting. And, yeah, I think, you know, I dusted off, well, I didn't even dust off old CDs, though I do have them. I just got it on Spotify. But, you know, listened to some of the old album, you know, well, Ready to Die, you know. And, yeah, it's interesting. It really, it kind of gives a little perspective on that, too. Because there's one, I forget what it's called, but it's the one where he makes reference - well, he makes reference to his mother a few times. I think I know where Eminem may have been inspired. But I think - you know, it's got one of these reggae sort of, I forget what that's called, dance hall kind of stuff going and you've got a woman's voice singing and using the Jamaican slang and stuff. And I was like, well, that's interesting. I hadn't really picked up on that before, you know.

Emmett Malloy 30:27
Yeah. And we tried to do it in the film by even showing like, you know, his producer 50-Grand and Mr. Cee, when they're talking about mic presence and how the Jamaican DJs would have this mic presence. And they even say, I don't know if he knew it or not, but he got it from there. And it's the truth. When you went and sat his uncle Dave down, they went and saw these things. I mean, he straight up said it, we'd sneak out and then we go over in this little grass knoll, and we just trade verses. And you know, he was a young kid then, to know that was so cool, you know, it made you go, you know - even just for his musical prowess, it was cool. But I couldn't help noticing, going around Jamaica, seeing Bob Marley murals everywhere. And then going straight to Brooklyn and seeing Biggie murals everywhere. And even that tripped me out. You know, that too, is nothing you can articulate in the film. But it was certainly with my own eyes going, man, these guys kind of impacted their hometown the same way. They're kind of the face of Jamaica and Brooklyn now. And their phrase is 'spread love'. You know, it's like they've taken over the bumper sticker market, you know, like, for those. And that's so interesting to me. I just, I was fascinated by some of those things, just the power of their music.

Matthew 32:01
That's very interesting. I mean, I think it was, you were talking about mic presence. I mean, one thing I've told someone even today, I said, 'Look, watch for other reasons, but if for no other reason, watch this, 'cause, I think that mic battle he has, before he becomes famous, in Brooklyn is absolutely amazing.

Emmett Malloy 32:22
It really is. I mean, that was always the one. Like every, you know, that was the seminal Biggie clip, you know. That everybody has, if you saw it, you just be, that'd be the one and only clip you would retain, you know. And especially too for us, like, I don't know what it is. But hip hop, the genre of hip hop music, I can't think of a lot of seminal live clips that I've seen. You know, they're, it's the studio perfection that seems to really shine. Whereas like you go to punk and it's endless the amount of times your mind has been blown by, like, a punk moment. And so, that's what was so cool about that one, the vibe, the way it is, the way it is on film is so incredible. And then obviously it's before he's fully formed, but the talent's totally there. But the best part is, that's another thing where because of Miss Wallace and the access I had, we got beyond the little three minute YouTube clip that everybody's seen. We got the whole 40 minutes. And we were able to craft stories around the details of the day. And I think people again, were excited to know more about this clip that maybe had already lit them up. But that clip, he just buries the guy. And, you know, that's - and I just loved that the whole thing, his buddy's, like, yo, I was just excited because I brought him there. Everybody was like, yo, that's your friend. And it was just so cool to hear that, because it was like, you know, it's like a boxer lightening it up. And that thing you know, you just, like the whole neighborhood's buzzing about it. And that just brings you back to more innocent phase of life.

Matthew 34:11
Yes, indeed. I think, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, what comes out of this, is he's the most, in some ways, most unlikeliest of rap stars, legends, given where he came from.

Emmett Malloy 34:26
Yeah. Agree. It's, you know, even just the way he looked, you know. I mean, at that time, Puff talks about it, it was all about like, being handsome and gloss lips and looking like LL Cool J. So, for this guy to come out and with all this talent, and be a sex symbol, like it's insane, you know, it's just crazy. And it all goes back to, like, his vision, you know, just the confidence that he gained, once he was able to be that and not, you know, side giger. Once he was able to fully be it, he got to achieve his dreams and he knew what to do with it. And he did it. And then all those other things come because of your confidence. You got that. I mean, of course, girls are gonna, you know, love ya. You got, you know, you're that guy. So, again, that all came but everybody always talks about how he was like a sex symbol. And that's certainly something I picked up more along the way, you know, because he was just so charming, always. But it was fun to hear everybody fascinate on that. That was a cool part of this process.

Matthew 35:34
I mean, you were talking about Netflix earlier. Was there ever any pressure to say look, concentrate on more the, you know, the East Coast / West Coast's story or, you know, or some of these? It could have even been a true crime doc, right? I mean, you know, maybe there will be one, I don't know, probably had been.

Emmett Malloy 35:54
Yeah, well, I know that Nick Broomfield did one that kind of gets into that. I think the good thing is, you know, we always pitched it as Christopher. And we were like, real specific, in the beginning, like, yo, this is what this film has to be about. And we always envisioned it ending at the release of Ready to Die, they have a platinum party afterwards. And we kind of thought that was the place to go out in the film. You know, that's how we always pitched it. Like, that's kind of when you made it, to your dream level. You know, before any doubts or the pain come in, that was always the way to go out, you know. Then when you make a film with Netflix, you're - you know, I was listening for things that can make this film good for them. And, you know, it made clear that a lot of these people didn't even know much about him. And you kind of got to avoid - they do have this philosophy, I don't think it's like a company philosophy, but it was brought up a few times, like, don't make them go to Wikipedia right after watching, you know. And I was like, that's a good roadmap for me to follow, you know. If I could just avoid you having to go to Wikipedia and give you enough of it, and let you understand it. So, honestly, it made the back end of our film more satisfying, to kind of be able to touch upon the second record. And we just had so many great soundbite moments, the grandmother, everything of just kind of like, you know, the road leading to his tragic death. And it was, it worked out well for us. And it was something that I'm very happy they, you know, recommended that and kept me open to that. Because it would have been shallow minded to do it the way I was kind of being, I thought I had to do it that way. Once I let go a little, it was, it was a relief.

Matthew 36:21
That's interesting. Do you think, I mean, do you think it opens you up to a bit of criticism in the sense that, because it almost, you go that extra step, then people are like, well, then why didn't you go into more detail about his death, and East Coast / West Coast and all these sort of conflicts and things.

Emmett Malloy 38:09
I think, one, what worked for me is that people are sick of that part of this story. And the one thing I can say clearly now, with a month and change, since the release of our film that everybody picked up on what we were trying to do. And viewed - I thought that would get a little more criticism, the reviews, the feedback, focus there. I think some people the feedback was like, why do another darn Biggie movie, you know? It was kind of that negative stuff out of the gates. But for the most part, the people who watched it and, you know, got into the positive spirit of it, I think appreciated us not going there. I always thought it was a little bit of our vulnerability when I, you know, kind of also just even admitting the process. There was a bit of an add on, you know, and so you're always a little unsatisfied with those types of things because you feel, you know, how long do we talk about this pitch and up to Ready to Die, and you have all those things. But like I said, in the end, I think we made the right call. And I think, you know, it feels like people were enjoying the way we came about making this film. And I truly have never released something, you know, this is my biggest film that I've gotten to release just as far as the platform, but also the most positively received, you know. Which sometimes it's not like that, you know. Sometimes, you get your most popular thing and you maybe had to kind of do something to get it there that was a little out of your wheelhouse. And this once, fortunately, it was just I got to do it on a big enough story that, you know, I was able to get the benefit of that and then got to make something that people, you know, enjoyed watching.

Matthew 40:01
Well, I see there back on your shelf, your Grammy.

Emmett Malloy 40:07
Oh yeah, yeah. That is hilarious!

Matthew 40:10
Conspicuously placed!

Emmett Malloy 40:12
Yeah, that's more my style. My wife keeps bringing that thing out. And I always hear that story about how Merle Haggard, like, when somebody went to shoot him, he used the Grammy as his doorstop. That's - those are my icons.

Matthew 40:30
Oh, You didn't have to move the camera because I've mentioned it.

Emmett Malloy 40:33
I'm only kidding.

Matthew 40:35
No, but the reason I raise this, 'cause you do have this - I mean, you've got this long filmology. You've done a lot of mostly music stuff. Great stuff. You've done stuff with the Whites, White Stripes, Jack White, The Black Eyed Peas, just to name a few.

Emmett Malloy 40:53
Random, throw the Black Eyed Peas in there!

Matthew 40:56
Yeah, well, I can get, like anyone else. I can either get on Wikipedia or IMDb. But, I mean, where would you, and as you said, you came to this as not necessarily a well, not necessarily a big hip hop, or at least East Coast hip hop fan or something, but you are roughly, not even just roughly, you are the same age as Christopher Wallace and his friends, basically. I mean, what do you think Biggie's legacy is? You know, in terms of what he has meant for hip hop?

Emmett Malloy 41:33
Yeah, it's hard for me to say. I think he is kind of an icon of the modern hip hop artist. You know, I do feel like, in the film, we kind of insinuate this, but it feels like the kind of hip hop mogul grew out of that brand, you know, guys who are real interested and smart businessmen interested in doing other things and getting into other ventures. I think he's a forefather to that, to Jay Z, you know. So, I look at that. But I mean, you know, I think, as far as like, just that mic presence, I think he's just gonna stand up to anybody as far as presence on the mic. And since that's such a massive part of that specific genre of music, you know, I just think he's always going to sit up there. Kind of like when you talk about basketball, you're gonna always have Michael Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, you know, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, they're always, the five are always going to be there. The 10. Some people will throw a Kobe in there and Iverson, you know, just to kind of mix it up. And certainly, LeBron is going to get a lot of, like, looks at number one. I think he's gonna sit in that little dance for the rest of our, our run. And that's, that's a big, humongous legacy, you know. And I also think he, like put Brooklyn, the spirit of Brooklyn, worldwide. I think right now you can run anywhere in the world and be like, yo, is Brooklyn in the house, and somebody is gonna, like, throw a Biggie line at you. And that's a pretty massive legacy.

Matthew 43:16
Yeah. And he also gave his nickname to a Supreme Court justice, if you will. And you know.

Emmett Malloy 43:23
I know! How insane is that? So many of those things were going on. I mean, this guy gets inducted into the Hall of Fame in a, you know, crummy year as far as COVID, and present. But, you know, even in the time, I was working on this film, cool things like that happened. You know, the street he was raised on was named after him. He was inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I mean, it's such a crazy legacy. And it just seems like this is a guy that everybody wants to continue to celebrate. And, you know, there's a lot of big artists that were probably hitting record sales at a similar amount. You know, we don't talk about them much. And their songs aren't getting dropped at every, you know, Bar Mitzvah, wedding and barbecue, for the rest of time.

Matthew 44:16
It is kind of funny thing about rock and hip hop and this sort of type of music. What's cutting edge is, as you say, 20-30 years later, showing up at Bar Mitzvahs and...

Emmett Malloy 44:28
Yeah, it's insane. I mean, especially when you now know the record and like, what it was born out of, and the stories that it was telling. But that, you know, that just became the genre. And that's, you know, oftentimes the voice of these great, you know, talents that came from these crazy neighborhoods, just challenging life stories. And they were able to, you know, bring it to life in a cinematic way, as he did, where it's just you feel it.

Matthew 45:01
And I think that's something we've, well, we've obviously touched on, but I think we haven't gone into detail but the film does, which is what Brooklyn was like in the 80s and early 90s. And what he was having to go through, you know. Just what he saw on a daily basis every time he went down to Fulton Street, right? I mean, that's quite, I guess, maybe that's something that we too easily forget about what things were like back then.

Emmett Malloy 45:30
Yeah, it was an intense thing. And you see, the hardest of guys in our film, talking about how Fulton Street scared them, you know. And, you know, what was cool, not even cool, but what I tried to do in the film is, like, there were several moments that we point out in the film that - one more day in a certain place, he could have been in jail. And this whole thing could have been, you know, amounted to nothing. We'd never even know of Christopher Wallace. And there was several of those in his life because, again, he wasn't like, romancing selling drugs, you know. That was just his crew. That's what the role models and the guys on the street like looking the coolest and having all the stuff were doing. And then, of course, he, you know, he wanted to fit in, and he wanted to make money, and he was a guy, he was a shrewd guy that wanted to be a kingpin, you know. If he was gonna do something, he wanted to kind of be really good at it. And that was a cool, interesting thing about that time is like the hustlers, the hip hop kids, they rapped about being hustlers, you know, like, they were kind of aspiring to be hustlers. And now, I think it's, you know, not like that, anymore. But that was a romantic time where, you know - and we, I love the story we uncovered and got deeper into about his friend Olie, and his death. And that was something we had to get by on with very little footage, just a few photos. But, you know, his best friend was killed, you know, on a night, he should have been with him and his family's ties to the drug game were insane. And those stories, I had to find a way to get those into the film, because I thought they would help people understand, you know the ranks that he was running with. I mean, this was real stuff.

Matthew 47:38
You know, I think that's a very good point. Because I think some of us at the time, probably, you know, and it was kind of the nature of rap, heard some of these - heard the lyrics, and never actually took them, maybe, sometimes seriously. But they were actually not just inspired, they were based on real life and his experience, so...

Emmett Malloy 47:58
And I tried to show that in the movie, you know. Cuz I think that's something I kept underplaying as a filmmaker. I'm like, man, we keep talking about how his lyrics were like, the everyday struggle, but I'm not feeling it. I'm not feeling it in how it's echoing our narrative. And that was something that weirdly took a long time for us to get that balance right. We started to feel the songs and feel that they were, you know, kind of chapters of his life that he's bringing in there. They were embellishments, you know, obviously, you see clearly he loved his mother, and had the closest relationship ever, but if you listen to the record, you'd be, whoa, gosh, you know, you think there was a different narrative. But I wanted to bring that storytelling to life. And you know, I needed crutches, like the country music thing to light the fire in the audience's mind and say, like, ah country, music, storytelling, storytelling. And then, when I put the right song in the right place, it started to do a little more. And I'm used to that. I'm used to trying to make emotional films with like, a band playing live music. And you got to somehow find it. And it's there. There's even - it can be a little poetic or whatever, but there are ways that you can do it if the subjects letting ya. And that's something I'm always on the lookout for.

Matthew 49:25
Okay. Well, speaking of which, and it's hard to believe, but I think we're coming close to the end of our time together.

Emmett Malloy 49:31
Oh, dear, I'd have no issue filling your time.

Matthew 49:36
You didn't, you haven't just filled time. It's been very much...

Emmett Malloy 49:38
It's like a disorder. I just like a quiet and then I give out these things. And I just can't even let a question happen!

Matthew 49:48
What do you, what do you have next? What's next on those cards for you? More music docs, what's...?

Emmett Malloy 49:55
Yeah, well, I don't know. You know, that's the million dollar question right now. And I'm just working hard on trying to find that next thing. You know, I did a movie, a narrative film with Jennifer Garner called The Tribes of Palos Verdes, prior to this. I really enjoyed the depth of that project and kind of getting into it with some great actors. So, I'm both looking at documentary films, and with just, you know, kind of dusting off some old ideas, and also connecting with a couple personalities, living personalities, you know. Because I think I'd like to do one more in the moment next. You know, that's the one thing I'd say I have to do. In a long winded project like this, with an estate and kind of going through the act of kind of dealing with mostly archival and speaking about it. I kind of realized the next one, I'd love it to be, you know, maybe somebody on their last go around. Somebody that I could do something that felt more in the moment. That's the one thing I'd say I'd like to pivot on. But you never know, I'd be game - I finished a five hour series on the Dream Team, the basketball team, 92, a big basketball team that I did with the famous sports writer, Jack McCallum, the Sports Illustrated writer. And that, that was real cool. And that's something I just had a blast, you know, getting to talk to the people I got to on that film.

Matthew 51:28
And where could someone see that? Because that's...

Emmett Malloy 51:31
That's done through Paramount, and it's trying to find it, you know...

Matthew 51:32
.. a home?

Emmett Malloy 51:34
Yeah. Trying to find where it will come out around these Olympics. So I have, you know, just waiting to kind of see where they want to position it. But you never know with these things. There are so many platforms. Yet, doing a project with the NBA, Michael Jordan, all these humongous personalities like this, it's just challenging. And at the end, you surrender and just like this one, just hope it finds a good place in the end, and people get to see it, because you, you really put a lot of work into them. But both of these have been you know, that one and this, I just was having so much fun talking to everybody. So, I love the aspects of it. But they both have been very long winded, you know, so they wear you out.

Matthew 52:22
Okay, well that's - so you need - you just need to change of pace for - 'till you tackle one of those again.

Emmett Malloy 52:30
Maybe so, you know, I just more liked doing a movie - doing kind of a darker narrative excited me. You know, it was fun to make it all up and lean on your instincts of reality and what you can do to make the thing feel very genuine. But it was cool. I just feel like I'm - I want a great script. That's the one thing I learned, you know. Not, that script was cool, it had a lot of interest. But I felt like we were always improving the script while we were working on it. And, you know, I just know, there's scripts out there that are kind of like, you know, ready to roll. And I'd be excited to get one of those and, you know, kind of lift my - just kind of go into places I didn't see myself going as a filmmaker. Because I think emotionally, when you get a bit older, you're just cool with that. You're not fighting things. You're willing to surrender if you feel trust in it. And I'm good with that.

Matthew 53:31
Okay. Well, and for aspiring writers out there, Emmet Malloy is looking for a great script. So just... We will have your links in the show notes. They'll be able to figure out how to get ahold of you. Your Instagram account or however that works.

Emmett Malloy 53:46
Thank you for picking up on that!

Matthew 53:50
Well, and after we finish recording, I might have a question or two for you as well. But not that I'm an aspiring writer. So, just want to say thank you again to Emmett Malloy, the director and producer of Biggie: I Got A Story To Tell, streaming on Netflix, still doing quite well, highly recommend that you check it out. If you have any questions regarding how you can become a documentary director and producer like Emmett Malloy or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com, to learn more about careers in the film industry. I want to give a shout out to our engineer Freddie Besbrode and the rest of the team of This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Emmett on to the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off. You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo Pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk