Underground Inc: The Legacy of Alternative Rock
When we think of alternative music of the 1990s, bands like Nirvana, Smashing Pumpkins, Rage Against the Machine or Green Day immediately come to mind – bands who were supported by major labels and commercially viable.
However, there was a whole sea of other underground bands, spanning a few generations, who were completely fobbed off by the corporate music labels, who didn't sell as many records, and whose careers were overshadowed by their commercially successful counterparts.
Joining us in this episode is Shaun Katz, director and producer of Underground Inc: The Rise and Fall of Alternative Rock (2019). His film dives into the meteoric rise and fall of the hardcore, underground alternative rock scene of the late 80s to mid-90s.
The film includes interviews with the likes of Joey Castillo from Queens of the Stone Age, Sean Yseult from White Zombie, Steve Albini (the record producer for Nirvana, the Pixies, and PJ Harvey), Todd Huth from Primus, and many more.
Underground Inc. will be available on all major cable and VOD platforms and on DVD on March 23rd.
"There was a generational shift happening at the underground rock scene, that left the music industry not knowing what to do." - Shaun Katz
Time Stamps:
02:23 - The film we are discussing – Underground Inc.
04:14 - What the film is about and how Shaun Katz got the idea to make it.
05:46 - What came under term “alternative music” and who listened to it.
09:53 - How Nirvana changed the music scene.
14:54 - At what cost the bands like Soundgarden, Pearl Jam or Alice in Chains went mainstream.
19:35 - Why Shaun focused on what bands did right and wrong as they became popular.
22:45 - What response Shaun received from the musicians he approached to participate in it.
27:09 - How Shaun found all the archival footage for the film.
30:18 - What “the last physical rock scene” means.
33:30 - Why Shaun included many different bands in the film instead of focusing on one or two.
36:48 - What lessons bands learned from the alternative rock scene during the 80s and 90s.
39:18 - What the legacy of alternative rock is.
42:15 - The next steps for Shaun Katz.
Resources:
Underground Inc. (2019)
This is Distorted
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Shaun Katz:
More From Factual America:
Martha Cooper: The Unlikely Hero of the Street Art
Billie Eilish: A Portrait of the Artist
Miles Davis: The Coolest Music Innovator of the 20th Century
Chuck Berry: The Original King of Rock and Roll
22 Exciting Documentaries About Rock and Pop Bands
13 Captivating Documentaries About Jesus
Best Documentaries About Australia: Top Picks to Explore the Continent
Best Documentaries About Dogs: Unleashing Canine Stories and History
Best Documentaries About Finance: Uncovering the World of Money and Investments
Best Documentaries About Influential Journalists: Insightful Stories Revealed
Best Documentaries About Popular Writers: Must-Watch Insights and Stories
Transcript for Factual America Episode 52 - Underground Inc: The Legacy of Alternative Rock
Shaun Katz 0:01
Hi, I'm Shaun Katz and I am the director and producer of Underground Inc: The Rise & Fall of Alternative Rock.
Speaker 1 0:09
Okay, let's start at the beginning of this picture.
Speaker 2 0:17
There's so many bands at that time that were just so vital. You know, it seemed they had this like uncensored energy.
Speaker 3 0:25
I couldn't believe it. I never heard music like that. It was completely foreign to me and super exciting.
Speaker 4 0:35
It really is all because of Nirvana. The record came out just before us and is just selling millions and millions and bands didn't do that unless you're Madona.
Speaker 5 0:52
The record labels in Los Angeles would just drop in money on bands left and right.
Speaker 6 0:57
Okay, form a line over there with your checkbooks.
Speaker 7 1:01
I've heard so many sad stories of records that were made and then shelved, and they never got put out.
Speaker 8 1:08
I mean, multiple people out there, players and musicians and writers and singers who should be giant.
Speaker 9 1:16
I do know that there are a lot of great bands from the 90s that never got heard of.
Speaker 10 1:30
Creativity meets commerce. And they go smash, smash, smash, smash, and like what's gonna happen?
Speaker 11 1:39
Don't put out a scary record right now. Put out another happy pretty record.
Speaker 12 1:43
That was the moment when we had this realization of what was going on. That we didn't have any control.
Speaker 13 1:50
We shot a video and it never made it anywhere. Never, never got shown anywhere. It happened that fast for us, that decline.
Speaker 14 1:58
Now that's the 90s right here.
Intro 2:07
That is a trailer from the soon to be released documentary Underground Inc: The Rise & Fall of Alternative Rock. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood and today we're in for a real treat as we discuss the 1980s and 90s alternative rock scene. Joining us is Shaun Katz, director and producer of Underground Inc: The Rise & Fall of Alternative Rock. Sean, welcome to Factual America.
Shaun Katz 2:40
Hi Matthew, happy to be here.
Intro 2:42
Yeah, it's what, is eight in the morning there, isn't it? Are you in Sydney?
Shaun Katz 2:46
Sunday morning as well.
Intro 2:48
So what's Sunday like?
Shaun Katz 2:50
Sunday is just raining. It's just dark and gloomy outside. So if I wasn't talking to you, I'd probably be sleeping in or watching a movie right now.
Matthew 2:58
See, we've done you a favor, haven't we? So, as we've already said Underground Inc: The Rise & Fall of Alternative Rock officially came out in 2019. Got some great quote here from David Griffiths, Lilithia reviews "if Katz's aim was to show the world that for every Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins, there was an equally as good band who were overlooked but kept slaving away, then it certainly achieves that." It's releasing on March 23. It's available in the US and Canada on DVD and all major cable and VOD platforms, including, but not limited to iTunes, Amazon, Fandango, Now, VUDU and Google Play. I've also been advised to say - check local cable listings for availability. So thanks so much, Shaun, for coming on to the podcast. Congratulations on this finally having a wider release. And thanks for making this film. I got to relive some of my misspent youth, although I'm now thinking it wasn't so misspent, having seen your film. So Shaun, maybe give us a little background? I mean, it seems pretty obvious, given the title but what is Underground Inc. all about?
Shaun Katz 4:14
Well, for me, it was trying to communicate to hopefully a larger amount of people that when you think about 90s music, it's not just Smashing Pumpkins, it's not just Rage Against the Machine, or Green Day, whoever, who all made great albums, obviously. But there was a whole sea of other bands basically talking like two or three generations worth of bands who were completely fobbed off by these major corporations who, if they didn't sell as many albums as Green Day or as many as I don't know, Tool, or whatever big band is happening at the time, their career was basically over. And in many cases so many of these smaller bands were more accomplished than the more well known bands. So I was working in a record store and I had access to everything that was coming out. And I saw these bands who would only come out with one album, and I wanted to know more, I was like, I need my fix - where is the second album? And that's how I got into exploring this whole story.
Matthew 5:23
And when you hear, I mean, you know, I hate to do this, actually, there's this part of me that just wants to throw all the notes out the window, because that would be more in spirit with what I think we're going to be talking about today, in terms of alternative rock of that era. But when people hear alternative, they hear different things. And for you, how would you define alternative music?
Shaun Katz 5:47
I must say, I know that that was used as a catch all phrase for anything that was sort of post punk related or underground punk inspired or something. But I feel like the alternative label really got associated with what was acceptable to be played on radio at a certain point, because it was a time were suddenly by, let's say, 1997, when you turned on the radio, and that kind of music didn't sound anything like it did just three years ago, didn't sound like that at all. So I will probably prefer to maybe let's talk about underground punk or whatever other label you want to use, which is in more of the spirit of the kind of music I'm talking about.
Matthew 6:36
Well, I think it's funny because, you know, I was trying to explain to my teenage children why I was so into this film. You know, and also explaining different music. And, you know, you get thinking people talk about punk post, punk college, hardcore, whatever you want to call it, but don't you think it's just these sort of sub genres? Are these just music journalists trying to, I don't know, classify things, pigeonhole music that in a lot of ways defied being pigeonholed?
Shaun Katz 7:08
I definitely think all the labels that came up around that time were definitely result of journalists. I mean, I don't think any of those Seattle bands defined themselves as grunge. That was most definitely a term invented by the media, or maybe by the industry. And it was the same with alternative. I mean, I don't need to repeat the whole alternative to what line everyone said that. But yeah, I definitely do agree.
Matthew 7:38
And then I think you've got, I mean, one thing that I think it captures well, and you've, I think there's a musician in the film, Craig Silverman, who's like, was talking about that scene and coming up, you know, this is, you know, pre Nirvana. He says, kids from different scenes were coming together, and you couldn't call them anything. And that is certainly my own personal experience, is going to music clubs, and you'd see people of all sorts coming to these concerts.
Shaun Katz 8:13
Yeah, I mean, I'm a little bit younger than some of the people who were initially, who came of age during this music. So a lot of the things that I'm saying are secondhand in a way, but I mean, yeah, you would go to a Jane's Addiction concert, and you'd see like weird, whatever the version of hipster was at the time, you'd see metal kids, you'd see punk kids, you'd see black hippies, and you'd see just a whole bunch of weird bunches of audiences, which before was like, you know, if you dress differently than get out, you're not invited. So that was a coming together of different subgroups of, you know, I forget the word, but you know what I'm talking about.
Matthew 9:04
I mean, yeah, you've got a great, I mean, it's amazing. You got Steve Albini on there. And I think he's got a great scene there too, where he describes what that scene was like, you know, just all these different groups of people who just as I think, as he put it, were not straight. Would not fit in with whatever was mainstream, all coming together.
Shaun Katz 9:29
When I was filming that thing, when he said the line about the dogs, I was just trying so hard not to burst out laughing. I recorded that. I was just like, behind the camera going don't you laugh, don't you dare laugh? But it was, yeah, it was hilarious.
Matthew 9:50
And yet, so how did Nirvana change things? Because obviously they didn't happen in a vacuum. There's this, well, underground but thriving seen. But how does Nirvana change everything?
Shaun Katz 10:04
Well, Nirvana was basically the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, when you talk about Nirvana becoming huge and Lollapalooza becoming huge and all that, sort of, you know, the punk broke and everything like that, that was the result of 10 years of you know, underground bands breaking their backs and blazing trails, and for better or worse, setting up a demographic that would become huge, like 10 years later. But I mean, there were, obviously when the first punk thing happened that was driven more on the ground and I think around some people would say '83, some people would say a little bit later, all these hardcore punk bands started playing with different genres and incorporating elements of Black Sabbath or Gang of Four or whatever bands they liked into a more musical outlet, if you will. And you know, you had all these weird bands coming up, like you had bands like Hüsker Dü and all these bands, it just didn't sound like anything that happened before. And that eventually evolved into bands like, you know, the Butthole Surfers and Chili Peppers and bands that wouldn't become household names later on. So that's how the vacuum didn't happen with Nirvana.
Matthew 11:30
And then, you know, you interview all these musicians from all these bands? I mean, did they, was it like that, was it like, turning on a switch that they sensed things change, as soon as Nirvana hit big.
Shaun Katz 11:46
It really depends on who you speak to. I mean, there were so many people that I interviewed. For some people that were a bit more blasé, they were like, Oh, yeah, the big brief Nirvana boom. And then there were some people who said, Oh, yeah, man, I remember when The Chili Peppers, and they play that song Teen Spirit, and you know, Whoa, something's changing, man. Which I don't know if that's true or not. But I think there was a sense that there was a generational shift. And I think that was definitely present. And I think a big part of the story that I cover in Underground Inc, is that because of a generational shift that happened, it sort of left the music industry a bit, sort of, not knowing what to do or not knowing what the kids were into. And then suddenly a band like, let's refer to Soundgarden instead. And when, you know, Soundgarden or Alice in Chains or whoever suddenly became huge, they just went with it. They just okay, sign everybody. And so I forgot your original question. But basically, it was the result of the record company, basically responding to a very clear generational shift that had happened.
Matthew 13:15
Hold that thought. Because I think what we'll do is we'll go to an early break, and then we'll come back and talk some more about alternative rock music with with Shaun Katz.
Factual America midroll 13:25
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America. Welcome back to Factual America. I am here with the director, producer, writer, editor, cinematographer Shaun Katz. Is there anything you didn't do on that film, Shaun?
Shaun Katz 13:54
I didn't do any catering.
Matthew 13:57
I think that may be the only credit you didn't get. So Underground Inc: The Rise & Fall of Alternative Rock releasing on March 23. I will say it again and won't be the last time you hear it, available in the US and Canada on DVD and all major cable and VOD platforms including iTunes, Amazon, Fandango, Now, VUDU and Google Play, or check your local cable listings for availability. That should make Andrew McKinnon the publicist happy and I guess we should get out and give a shout out to Vision films for getting this film released. So Shaun, we were talking about, I agree with you. Let's not just always use the N word, Soundgarden, Pearl Jam all these bands that really hit it huge then. Alternative music essentially goes mainstream in essence and becomes commercially viable. But at what cost? And I think your film captures this very well.
Shaun Katz 14:55
There are probably some bands that the film explorers who just were not meant to have a bigger audience. I mean, yes, there was a lot of weird politics about selling out and stuff back then, which no one has not now, but that was big back then. But you know, look, there were a lot of bands who just weren't inherently destined to appeal to the mainstream, not because they were bad. But because of band like Drive Like Jehu or band like Sleep who made the best one song album ever, they weren't going to, you know, be on the radio with, you know, the Backstreet Boys or something like that. So it was a little bit, it was a little bit of a weird thing, this weird contradiction that was happening. And I think that, you know, through the, I guess, the main, the final point here is that the scene kind of became polluted because it went from these underground bands doing something, I guess pure to a degree where they were just doing out of love of it, to doing it, it went from that to going, Okay, I've got to make sure that this bar is full of a&r people tonight, and I've got to try to get a bigger advance than that band got last night. And we got to make sure that we have sponsors and that kind of thing. So I think that that somehow crept into the music and at some point at some point. Which is probably when you start to get all this like cookie cutter bands, the nickelbacks and stuff like that. But yeah, happened at a certain point as well. So I think that's how it sort of got polluted.
Matthew 16:41
I mean, I guess you can't blame them. I mean, here, these kids, and they're, I guess, mostly in their 20s, and a lot of money being thrown in front of them, and they didn't know what the music business was like. And I think your film also documents that quite well, in terms of, in a way I hadn't actually quite realized it. We all know, each music scene, we've even had docs about other music scenes of other eras. And, you know, the play between studios and labels and the artists, but you know, as I think one of them says, you're not getting paid by the studio, you are actually paying the studio, aren't you? For these big budgets and these crews and tours that you're doing,
Shaun Katz 17:26
I mean, all this money? Well, I think some bands in the film did earn the labels money, and some didn't. But the thing is, you said something before about how they aren't to know. I've got a slightly different take on that. And I think Dave Wyndorf, touched on this quite eloquently. He was saying that in that thing with, cuz this wasn't the first time that a record company or all the record companies have tried to cover up the scene. And bands, there's too many bands. And the thing ends. He was saying that, you know, these were people who grew up listening to college radio and reading magazines. And, this wasn't a bunch of fresh faced kids from the 60s going - I like the Rolling Stones. I want to do that too. These are people who did know that these things were happening. But to be quite honest, I think with a lot of these bands, a big problem was that they know that that kind of thing is gonna happen, but they don't think it's going to happen to them. Because I think that they have a plan that they're gonna change the world somehow. And maybe they might just be that one that makes that difference. So I think that was a big part of it, too.
Matthew 18:39
That's interesting. That is an interesting take. And Dave Wyndorf has an excellent interview. He's got a lot of great scenes. Also about how to sell records.
Shaun Katz 18:52
That was the cigar in the mouth?
Matthew 18:54
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. He's talking about - you got to do, what does he say? They want...
Shaun Katz 19:01
I love what you kids are doing. Why don't you come over here and do it for us? And it'll be exactly the same as what you do, except more people will enjoy it.
Matthew 19:09
Yeah. You know, and I think that is a fair point. They weren't so naive. And as you say, it's, or someone else said, it's a warts and all doc so obviously, you know, some of these contracts for fueling, drinking and drug habits and all kinds of stuff that was just rampid at that time.
I was very happy that I was able to also put the focus on what the bands did wrong as well without you know them whining or anything like that. Obviously you don't want that because that's not very flattering when someone on camera does that. Which I don't think anyone did. But I mean, I think that they were very honest in how they looked at themselves, especially like for example, Peter Mengede, when he gives this very warts and all.
Exactly. Yeah. Traveling around in the van and things that were going on tour and the band falling out. Yes. I know exactly what you're talking about. That's, no spoiler alerts here, we're not gonna go in that.
Shaun Katz 20:17
This may not be appropriate for the podcast.
Matthew 20:19
Might not be, you can cast but I think we got to be careful how far we go with that one. I just advise everyone to watch that scene and y'all know what we're talking about. But yeah, I mean, that's something too, that you catch very well, which is this energy. It was so much about touring, you know, and that's certainly, as someone who was going to these clubs in the 90s, from, like, late 80s, on into the late 90s. That was, you know, 200 person venues, these sorts of things. And that's, you know, you get some big names in these little small venues. And that this, it was about the energy that you capture is amazing in this. And, you know, this sort of going on the road and being on the road, and it's not obviously glamorous, certainly, as these bands are starting out.
Shaun Katz 21:19
Yeah, no, thank you. I did want to somehow capture some sort of energy. You know, I've seen a lot of music documentaries, where I sort of felt like, shaking the person around, who was speaking and I was like, come on, like. And I think at the time I started making this talking head documentaries were a lot more popular back then. They were a lot more common. And I know that mine is also essentially a talking head documentary, but I think the way we, you know, capture that energy, and I say we, as in me and JB Sapienza, who was a big part of forming aesthetic for that film, by the time it was complete. You know, it was obviously a mix of the personalities on screen who are, I mean, as you can recall, there were some very interesting personalities from Walter Kibby to Dave Wyndorf to many other names. But it was also, you know, JB's animation, you know, being splashed into there. Yeah, I was very happy when, I think it was one of the guys from Cop Shoot Cop who said, like, you really captured the energy, like the records energy of that time. So that was cool, too hear, I was very pleased.
Matthew 22:36
Well, let's get to the making of this film. Because that kind of gets to this. I mean, how did this film come about? I mean, as you say, you're a little younger. You didn't quite come of age when some of this was happening. But you were, how did you went from a love, there's obviously, you have a love for this era and this music. How did that get you to then go take that next step, which are not just next step, next several steps to making a documentary?
Shaun Katz 23:06
With great passion and naivety. So basically, I did contact all of these people who were in the film. Actually I contacted everyone who I thought I would want to speak to. Some people said yes, some people said no. I'd say about two thirds of the people that I contacted said no and a third of people said yes. I tracked down a lot of people through like, managers and their websites and publicists and blah, blah, blah. And I was just very lucky, the first people are approached about finances were willing to give me whatever money I needed right out the gate to head out just in time to speak to all these people. So that sort of happened straightaway. And then the whole editing and clearing of songs and all that stuff just took what felt like a lifetime. But I can't complain on that much either, because I think the film needed that time to gestate and because, for example, the animation that JB did, that happened, like right, right near the end. So, everything happens in this time. But yeah, that was basically the rundown of how it all came together.
Matthew 24:24
As you mentioned, there's, and only, out of the people you reached out to you got a third, but there's still so many. And you could have easily focused on one or two bands. But you didn't. I mean, I think you've, there are bands I hadn't, I didn't quite remember, to be honest. And how did you manage to get them to say yes, get them on camera and get around to filming? I mean, there's, how many interviews are there in this thing?
Shaun Katz 24:53
Well, okay, so I was actually flying from Australia to the US. I'm based in Australia normally. And I mean, look, I would just say that people who agreed, they agreed because I agreed, I can't say why. But I mean, I can talk about why they whereas maybe forthcoming as they were, because there were a lot of people in the doc who maybe said things you might not hear in a typical doc. Talking about how they were, you know, some mistakes that they made and things like that. And I think, basically, I did send them a very polished presentation of what I wanted to do. This wasn't the first thing I had made. I've made like short films and music videos, and I had won awards and things like that. And I did put together a website and I had interviewed Peter Mengede from Helmet already. So he was included in the little package that I sent them and everything like that. So there was a whole selling thing that I did to them to get them on board. But when I spoke to them, I think the fact that it was just me and my camera and us two in a room, it maybe brought some of the guard down that they might have had if there were an entire crew in the room with me. And I think I got some really good stuff out of there. There was a struggle to, you know, there was so much other stuff I wanted to film that I couldn't, because there was so much good stuff that came out of the filming.
Matthew 26:28
So was that done intentionally? Or is that just budget? You only had budget for you and a camera to go round? Or did you think...
Shaun Katz 26:34
Pretty much, yeah, yeah, it was budget, but it was, I think the way I made this film was the perfect way that this kind of film needed to be made, if that makes sense.
Matthew 26:45
No, no, I think it does make sense. Fortunate to get that money up front, but then I'm sure, I know enough about the film business, it's not, I'm sure there wasn't a steady stream of money to help finance this thing. But we were talking earlier about the energy you capture. And where did you find all that archive? Because this is pre-smartphones. And you know, you look at concerts now and everyone's got their phone up, and they're all filming. And you know.
Shaun Katz 27:16
There were people documenting that stuff back then. If they weren't, they weren't in bands or writing zines, there were people going around filming their favorite bands and storing on VHS and trading tapes. And it was another part of this whole underground network that was happening. So it was a mix of finding those people and maybe just getting footage being sent to me from the bands who were in the film and everything like that.
Matthew 27:43
I mean, you got a great concert footage of Fugazi. I thought that was amazing. And then, but that's between that, you've got all these great quotes, you don't spend, I'm not talking about the picture well enough because people are gonna think oh, lots of talking heads interviews, reading quotes and things but that doesn't, that doesn't really give a flavor of the energy that's in this film. But, you know, you've got all these, a lot of these bands, and bands that, you know, I said I wasn't that familiar with. They got Rolling Stone quotes and they've got you know, big name people. They were definitely on people's radar screen but as you said, you know, for various reasons didn't make it big or maybe weren't really meant to make it big.
Shaun Katz 28:31
These bands who I talk about in the movie had such a big impact on the musicians who came after them. Like your average music listener might not know who Sunny Day Real Estate is, but probably every like fifth person that ever heard Sunny Day Real Estate back then started their own band. I mean all these bands like Sunny Day and Bread and Course of Empire. I mean, these bands made the big impacts in the underground or The Jesus Lizard. I mean, these were not lightweights, these are not like some guy who decided to like perform in a club one night and who the hell is this? These were, I mean, it's almost like as far as underground musicians go, this film is almost like a who's who A-list of those people. I mean, you got Pepper Keenan from Corrosion of Conformity. You've got Walter Schreifels from Quicksand. I mean, you got J. Robbins from Jawbox. How could I ask for any more? I mean, those were Tom Hanks and Brad Pitt in my indie film or something? This is why you see all these quotes from these big publications, you know, pinned on to some of these clips. Because these were very important bands to some people, even if they didn't sell a zillion albums.
Matthew 30:02
And, we mentioned Dave Wyndorf already of Monster Magnet. But I think, it's him very early on and it's, I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, that he calls the last physical rock scene. And what do you think he meant by that? And what does it mean to you that this is sort of the last physical rock scene?
Shaun Katz 30:23
Well, things change quite a lot. After when the internet came around. I mean, by 95, I don't know if broadband was around quite then. But people were definitely using dial up and everything. And then, with the internet now, I mean, if you share these interviews with, I don't know, what's his name, Arial Pink, whatever his name is, he actually says he's like - what scene? Like when people asked me tell me about the scene that you're at, he's like, there is no scene that exists, I didn't come out of any scene. So this was very much, this film that has been made, Underground Inc, very much captures that spirit of all these people from all these cities, around the US and further out as well. You know, touring, trading, you know, a board and shelter and, you know, clubs that were set up with little labels, you had clubs, you had labels, you had houses for people to stay when they toured. This was all this growing network, that was all in the real world. I mean, I'm sure that there's some sort of scenes that happen now, but they're not as reliant and as grounded as this need to do things in the physical world as they were back then.
Matthew 31:50
Yeah, and I think that's, I mean, the only thing I would say, that's, it's not missing, it's just for me personally, the only thing I would say is missing is that, it's not missing, it's there. But I just kept thinking of all the different clubs, you know, there's this whole, it wasn't officially a network, but there was this network of clubs, from these little sort of satellites throughout America, where you knew if you wanted to see this kind of music, you've got to go here, you know, you've got to go to the 9:30 Club in Washington DC, or you've got to go, I used to live in Boston, you got to go the Middle East, you've got to, you know, these sorts of things. And I think that, all these, I was living in North Carolina, so the Cat's Cradle, and Chapel Hill would have some of these bands coming through. It was very, you know, I think what I didn't appreciate at the time, what your film helps me realize, is how unique and special in some ways that era was. We just, I just thought, we all thought that that's just the way it was, you know. And like you said, how did you, I mean, I was oblivious to it. But then I was working one summer, and a guy gave me a tape, he says, you might want to listen to some of this music. And I listened to it. And it's like some of these, some of the bands, they feature in your doc, are in there. And I'm like, you know, you're talking about, there's this idea that that generation was an angry young men and women. What was angry was, what made me angry is why haven't I heard any of this music before?
Shaun Katz 33:24
Yeah, well, I'm happy that you're saying that, because that was the whole reason. I wanted people to know that these other bands existed. But I mean, look, there were a lot of bands back then. And there are a lot of bands now. And I think it's an interesting story about how, you know, underneath all of this, all this indie stuff, it all came down to at the end of the day, how many albums that you were going to sell. That whole capitalist aspect that maybe led to, you know... I think if you were in the city, you would hear about these bands. What city did you grew up in the US?
Matthew 34:04
Well, I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, so that didn't really have as much... I was a little bit for various reasons, oblivious to anything that might have had. What I did know about was the Sex Pistols came and they caused a riot in San Antonio, it's documented in a film. And it makes everyone from San Antonio very proud, that this happened. But you know, they're the cool kids, you know, you're talking with the different groups....
Shaun Katz 34:27
There are people who kept their ear to the ground. But I mean, I think, we're going to show it back in the day, let's say you grew up in Dallas, you would know about Course of Empire, or you would know about the Thirties or watever band popped in in Dallas, became huge, so it's a bad example. But, you know, you would, I think it was, you mentioned clubs before, and I think it was a case of, you know, if you were in that local scene, if you were a part of it, that's the only way you could find out about these bands. But if you were just someone who might just tune in on the radio, then you might not hear about them. So you mentioned how I left out a lot of stuff about clubs, which really just came down to, it's not all that interesting to have a whole list of names of clubs that rattled off because you have to work with things in the edit that complement the narrative, that feeling of that narrative moving forward. But then also on top of the clubs, you also had the radio. So another thing was the media. So I guess most people find out about music on the radio, or at least they did back then, right? Or MTV. So there's a lot of politics, which went into what landed up on the radio and what landed up on MTV. And I could only touch on some of the stuff. Because I had so much material. And at the end of the day, only so much of it is going to make you into film. But it's a very interesting can that you open when you talk about why band gets big. And why it doesn't.
Matthew 34:31
And I think, no need to give a list of clubs. I think what you've done is you've shown what those clubs were like, through all this, the live footage that you've got. You must have taken forever to track all this stuff down. And I think, you know, I saw Fishbone in concert, and you've got a Fishbone footage in there. And I think it does a pretty good job of showing you what seeing, or going to a Fishbone concert would have been like. I mean, in talking to all these bands and musicians, what are the lessons they've learned?
Shaun Katz 36:43
Oh, I definitely think there are lessons to be learned. I would say that probably the biggest one is what Steve Albini touches on about the bands who have managed to continue making music, are the people who have decided to, you know, take care of the business side themselves and not the people who have hooked on to a bobsled, and let a big record company take care of them. They're the people who have decided to learn how the business is run and do all those things so they're not reliant on some people who might potentially rip them off. And I mean, we're seeing that now with so many of the bands who didn't do well, back then are doing better now. I mean, a band like Failure is more successful now than they were back then by quite a large margin. So there was a lot to be learned about, you know, rather than living the rock star lifestyle, it might be helpful to learn more about what caused all this and avoid it by just doing it yourself. I think that that was probably the big lesson we learned.
Matthew 37:45
Yeah, I think there was a very good, because, you know, like any good doc, it's going to be more than just about the immediate subject. And I think you do learn a lot about the music industry. And I thought that was very interesting at a point, I forget which band it is. And it wasn't Failure, but the guy said, look for Atlantic, we sold, I don't know, hundreds of 1000s of albums, and we didn't make any money off of that at all. And, you know, but we've gone back to being independent labels, or however they're doing it and selling a lot fewer records, but certainly from a financial standpoint, they're at least seeing some of the money.
Shaun Katz 38:19
Um, yeah, yeah, that was Clutch.
Matthew 38:21
Yeah, it was Clutch.
Shaun Katz 38:23
Who are really doing much better than they used to back when they were bounced around from one major to the next. They were on like three or four majors. And yeah, that was, I love the different perspective that Neil Fallon gave to that, like, you know, some bands sort of was like, you know, some sort of thing to be afraid of if they got dropped. And he was like, saying, when we got dropped, we took these jokers for a ride. that gave us bunch of money, and these bands and sucked in you signed us up. And look what we got to do with that money. So it's, it's very, very eye opening.
Matthew 39:06
Yeah. And I think you've touched on it already. We've talked about how influential these bands are. But what do you think is alternative rocks legacy?
Shaun Katz 39:18
I would say that, in music, it definitely changed the way that people accept a certain style of music. From what I understand before that happened, you know, if you, either liked pop or you either liked punk or you liked country, and who were you if you know, you like something else. And I think that now that all these weird subgenres that have come out that had been a result of that. I found out the other day that there's something called, I can't remember, it's like a mixture between like shoegaze and black metal. It's called like, blackgaze or something like that. All these really weird, weird combinations which, some of them I don't get, but some of them are really good. But there's all kinds of, like bizarre combinations of music. And it really broke open any limitations of what is possible in, you know, any kind of music, I suppose, and I guess that's what their legacy was.
Matthew 40:25
Yeah. And I think, and probably also, it comes out too in the film is that, you know, these guys had influences that were, you know, not just their own whatever, however you want to call their genre. They would have been influenced by what was happening certainly, with, like, we've mentioned it with hip hop and sampling and things like that, that was going on at the time. So, I think that is a very good way of putting it. That you could, you don't have to fit in to some sort of category, you can mix all kinds of influences together.
Shaun Katz 41:01
I mean, who would think that something like hip hop could influence something like industrial? That's so, so like, polar opposite. I mean, I was listening to this Cop Shoot Cop album the other day called White Noise. And I mean, the Cops Shoot Cop, they're quite noisy before they got to the point that you saw them in this film. They were this very dodgy kind of impenetrable sounding band, but you listen to that album White Noise and you can hear that production aesthetic of like the Bomb Squad from Public Enemy and you know, it's all bleeding into each other. You know, it was very inspiring.
Matthew 41:46
And I will say that tape that turned me on to this music was, it had that mixture, it had Public Enemy on there mixed in with, you know, bands like this. So, you know, it's, I think what people were picking up on anyway, you know. That good music is good music. So what's next for you?
Shaun Katz 42:10
Maybe buying a hammock, and just relaxing. Look, I mean, you'll always have things that you want to make. And it's just a matter of will you get a chance to do them. I would like to go back to what I originally started, originally set out to want to make like fiction films, you know. I didn't want to do documentary after documentary. It's just something that I really loved and something that I wanted to do. But I mean, I would like to try to be back towards that one way or another. And I guess I'll see how that happens. But, I think the other thing that I just wanted to say was that, for anyone listening to this podcast, you know, if they've seen the movie go out and find these bands that we've been talking about. Actually go out and look for this music because they will change your life in very unexpected ways.
Matthew 43:09
Yeah, I would second that. Certainly. I mean, it's got me going back out to the all my old CDs are in the garden shed so I need to go back, a few of these, dig them out again, regardless of what my wife might think, and then, yeah, I agree. And then some of the ones that I hadn't been that familiar with, I was kind of blown away. I was like, why I had never heard of them and I do want to go search them out and listen to them. Because it was, okay, I'm of my era but to me, lot of the music in there just seemed so timeless.
Shaun Katz 43:48
And like which ones are the ones that you said why have I not heard of these bands?
Matthew 43:54
I didn't know Cop Shoot Cop really. And they play largely, they have a large, I mean, you could have focused on one or two bands but you didn't. I mean, you've got, as you say, you cover a lot of ground. It is, I think, the definitive doc of the scene. But you know, I think that would have been one. What would have been another one? I was a little surprised I wasn't aware of the one from, what's the one from Dallas?
Shaun Katz 44:29
The Course of Empire.
Intro 44:30
Yeah, I was a little surprised ...
Shaun Katz 44:32
So, Course of Empire. They made three albums and the third album, Telepathic Last Words, it is ground shaking as you know Nine Inch Nails The Downward Spiral or Ministry's The Mind Is a Terrible Thing to Taste. It is as epic and as like towering as any of those really dark masterpiece, well known recordings that came out of that time. So I was really happy to have them involved. So I just wanted to plug that album because I really don't think enough people know about it.
Matthew 45:14
Well, you've heard it here, and I will now go track it down. I don't know where I'm gonna be able to find it. I don't think it's on Spotify.
Shaun Katz 45:23
I think you, oh no no, I think that's a second album. I think Initiation is now available on Spotify. That was second Course of Empire album. But that's worth a listen to. All their stuff is. But yeah, find whatever you can of this stuff. It's very good.
Matthew 45:42
Okay, thanks for the recommendation. Shaun, I think we're coming to the end of our time together. So I just wanted to thank you for coming on to the podcast. It's been a joy having you. I hope you, wish you much success with the release on the 23rd. And if you do make another doc, I'm sure it'll be a good one and we'd love to have you back on.
Shaun Katz 46:07
Thank you very much, Matthew.
Matthew 46:09
And well, I just wanted to thank Shaun Katz again, and remind you the film is Underground Inc: The Rise & Fall of Alternative Rock, available in the US and Canada on DVD and all major cable and VOD platforms, including iTunes, Amazon, Fandango, Now, VUDU and Google Play, I'll have to take a breath here. Check local cable listings for availability. Actually do you know outside of the US and Canada if this is going to be available wider? Because we have, our audience is worldwide actually.
Shaun Katz 46:43
I'm sure it will be. It might not be available this month worldwide, but it will, I believe it should eventually roll out to all other territories in the next few weeks, a few months and things like that.
Matthew 46:56
Okay, so this will be releasing in time for the release on the 23rd. But for those listening this podcast, if you're not in North America, do search for it. I'm sure it will be coming up soon. I want to give a shout out to our engineer Freddie Besbrode. And the rest of the team at This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England. Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager ensures we continue getting such great guests like Shaun on the program. And finally big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you, so please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off.
Factual America Outro 47:44
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk