Santa Camp

Every summer, a horde of professional Santas, Mrs. Clauses and elves descend on a campsite in the New Hampshire woods to learn the tricks of their trade.

But this year is different. As Santas adapt to a modern world and embrace inclusivity, they are met with a lot of love but a lot of hate too.

Filmmakers Nick Sweeney and Stacey Reiss join us to talk about how they got such an unprecedented insight into Santa Camp, what it was like filming hundreds of Santas, and the biggest challenges they encountered while making the film.

“We had no idea of the twists and turns it would take, we never thought we’d be standing face to face with the Proud Boys, we never thought the Clauses we’d been following would have such extraordinary things happen to them, the highs and the lows.” - Nick Sweeney

Time Stamps

00:00 - The trailer for Santa Camp.
05:25 - What Santa Camp is about and who the Santa Society is.
06:25 - A clip from Santa Camp showing why people want to become professional Santas.
09:48 - What it’s like hanging out with hundreds of Santas.
11:06 - Why people want to be Santa.
11:44 - What you get taught at Santa Camp.
13:26 - The tricks of the trade of being a Santa.
16:07 - How Nick found out about Santa Camp and why he made a film about it.
19:43 - A clip from Santa Camp showing the challenges of being a Santa in 2022.
23:25 - The biggest challenges of making Santa Camp.
26:16 - How old school Santas responded to the new diverse Santa demographic.
29:24 - Updates from the Santas from Santa Camp.
31:20 - The unequal pay Santas from diverse backgrounds face.
36:37 - The threats they received in reaction to ethnically diverse Santas.

Resources

Santa Camp
Boys State: A Reflection of a Polarised
The Andy Warhol Diaries
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Nick Sweeney

IMDb

Connect with Stacey Reiss

IMDb

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Transcript for Factual America Episode 116: Santa Camp

Matthew Sherwood 00:00
Welcome to Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome Nick Sweeney and Stacy Reiss, the filmmakers behind the HBO Max documentary, Santa Camp. Here's the trailer.

Speaker 1 00:15
[Hooting]

Speaker 2 00:21
I say "Santa", you say "Claus". Santa!

Speaker 3 00:23
Claus!

Speaker 4 00:24
Santa!

Speaker 5 00:30
Claus!

Speaker 6 00:30
The New England Santa Society created a school called Santa Camp. It's starting to become more visible, and we're starting to do much more promotion of it. The issue we run into is that people just have a very specific idea of what Santas should look like.

Speaker 7 00:52
So, we have a lot of new Santas.

Speaker 8 00:56
I want to be able to be black Santa for other families. I'm going to be going up to New Hampshire to learn all the ins-and-outs of being Santa. Oh, it's definitely going to be strange experience.

Speaker 9 01:06 Levi is transgender.

Speaker 10 01:08
Ho, ho ho. Santa Levi, AKA Trans Santa, here.

Speaker 11 01:13
They're all white.

Speaker 12 01:15
[Speech Synthesizer] I am excited for Santa Camp.

Speaker 13 01:18
There you go, Santa Fin!

Speaker 14 01:22
This is the type of people that I live around. All of a sudden, we got a problem with black Santa.

Speaker 15 01:30
Have you always seen Santa as being white?

Speaker 16 01:32
Yes. I wish there was, like, a variety of Santas that come in any different shape and form, you know.

Speaker 17 01:37
I have never been asked by a child, How come Santa isn't black like me?

Speaker 18 01:41
Kids don't see colour.

Speaker 19 01:43
I'm Dr. Claus. Like, I am not the wife.

Speaker 20 01:46
Let me ask, how about pay?

Speaker 21 01:49
I say, Santa is 75 cents and Mrs. Claus you can add her in for a quarter.

Speaker 22 01:55
The doctor said he'd never walk and talk.

Speaker 23 01:57
[Speech Synthesizer] I want to show everyone that I am the real Santa.

Speaker 24 02:02
It's his dream.

Speaker 25 02:03
Our church has been getting emails, phone calls, typical hate messages.

Speaker 26 02:08
This church is infected.

Speaker 27 02:10
This is a ploy to steal, kill, and destroy somebody's identity.

Speaker 28 02:15
We don't know if they have weapons. Yeah, kind of scary.

Speaker 29 02:20
It doesn't matter. God created no junk. Whether they're gay, white, Jewish, black. Just doesn't matter.

Speaker 30 02:30
I needed to channel that anger into something that wasn't negative.

Speaker 31 02:34
Hey!

Speaker 32 02:38
I am not the warm-up act for Santa. Now, it's my turn.

Speaker 33 02:42
People need to see themselves in role models.

Speaker 34 02:46
Dasher, Dancer, Prancer. Vixen.

Speaker 35 02:49
Santa Claus is just an idea. A child wants somebody who looks like them. What's the problem?

Speaker 36 02:55
If I saw a trans Santa when I was a kid...

Speaker 37 02:58
It would have made a difference for you.

Speaker 38 03:00
Yeah.

Speaker 39 03:04
That's it. It's Santa.

Matthew Sherwood 03:04
That was the trailer for the HBO Max documentary, Santa Camp. And this is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Every summer a horde of professional Santas, Mrs. Clauses, and elves, descend on a campsite in the New Hampshire woods to learn the tricks of the trade. But this year is different at Santa Camp. Join us as we talk with Stacey and Nick about how Santas are adapting to a modern world and embracing inclusivity. We also find out what it is like to work on a Christmas documentary, and ask the question, can you ever get tired of Santa? Stay tuned.

Matthew Sherwood 03:40
Nick Sweeney, Stacey Reiss, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you, Stacey?

Stacey Reiss 04:01
Good. Thanks for asking.

Matthew Sherwood 04:02
Yeah. And Nick?

Nick Sweeney 04:04
I'm great. Thank you for having us. It's almost the beginning of December, so it's Christmas time, Santa time.

Matthew Sherwood 04:10
Well, I mean, you know, we wanted to have you on but, you know, there's even another reason to be discussing Santa. It's a seasonal topic. To remind our listeners and viewers, we're talking about Santa Camp. It premiered in November on HBO Max, and is it showing anywhere else? I mean, because I know HBO Max isn't global - quite - or are there plans in the works for wider distribution?

Nick Sweeney 04:40
So, right now, it's on HBO Max in all of the territories where HBO Max is available. And then in Australia, it's on Foxtel and Binge, and in Canada, it's on Crave, and there is a UK broadcast coming, but we don't have the details of that just yet.

Matthew Sherwood 04:57
Okay, well, people can search it online and I'm sure find it if they're not in one of the HBO Max territories. I'm not but I've benefited from having a screener, obviously. So, thank you for sharing that. And welcome and congratulations on getting this film made. And Nick, maybe you can start us off. For our listeners who haven't had a chance to see Santa Camp. What is Santa Camp all about? Maybe you can give us a bit of a synopsis.

Nick Sweeney 05:25
Santa Camp is about a actual real summer camp for Santa Clauses that exists in the woods of New Hampshire. Every year, about 100 Santa Clauses and Mrs. Clauses and elves get together and learn the tricks of the trade. And in the film, we see that the Santa Society that runs this summer camp, last year for the first time - they have been getting requests for Santas from different backgrounds: black Santas, and LGBTQ+ Santas, and so on. And so, they set out to address Santa's diversity problem by inviting Santas from different backgrounds. And so, the film follows the Santa Society, as well as the unconventional Clauses as they head to camp. And then, as they head out into the world.

Speaker 1 06:23
It's the clear and present danger for us.

Speaker 2 06:27
I needed to channel the anger into something that wasn't negative. So, I went and rented a Santa costume and played Santa Claus for my daughter.

Speaker 3 06:38
Down and across.

Speaker 4 06:42
I want to be able to be black Santa for other families. So, I'm going to be going up to New Hampshire to a Santa camp to learn all the ins-and-outs of being Santa.

Speaker 5 06:53
This is what I created.

Matthew Sherwood 06:59
Okay. Now, I - you know, I'm a bit older, but I do have children, but I was a little surprised. I mean, what I remember as a kid is that it's always just some guy who donned a wig and a beard, you know, even in the shopping mall. It wasn't - but professional Santas. I mean, these guys are - I mean, who are - They really take these things seriously, don't they, Stacey.

Stacey Reiss 07:24
Yeah, I mean, I think probably even in the mall for you as a kid, it wasn't just some guy with a, you know, with a wig and a beard. I think that most of these Santas take their role seriously. You know, on a serious note, it's - you know, they're interacting with children, they're setting an impression they have, you know, this tradition to uphold. And, you know, on a lighter note, these are - the Santas that we met at least - they're all natural performers. And so, you know, they want to put on a great show. And they sure do.

Matthew Sherwood 07:56
Yes, I mean, they do - they have - I mean, I think the film does that extremely well, in terms of the - especially, I love the intro of the film, where it just - the one Santa and all the different crying and screaming children, and the lovely children, and the older children, and different people, you know, this, as you say, this, what they're - this sort of image and institution, really, that they are trying to uphold, but, you know, so they've got...

Nick Sweeney 08:28
There's actually two Santas, that [...] one Santa, and, you know, that was a real problem in the making of the film, because people kept thinking that all of the Santas were the same person. We see early in the film that one of the Santas, named Santa Dick, passes away, and people were confused, because they thought that he then reappeared after he had passed away later in the film, and it was - it's a real challenge trying to make the audience be able to distinguish between the different Santa Clauses, because, you know, there's about 100 different Santa Clauses in this movie. And so, yeah, it's interesting. And the opening sequences, actually, it's actually multiple Santas.

Matthew Sherwood 09:04
Is it? Oh, well, you see, you know, that's the thing, it shows you what you do focus in on, right, on something like that. And, I mean, it's a good point and it's actually what the film's also - you probably tell me about as well, that it's because the traditional Santas have an image that they are aiming for, they do look, I mean, at first glance, look all the same, don't they? I mean, it's - how was - I mean, let me - how was that - I mean, what was it like hanging out with these guys, and how did you keep them - you know, did you become confused at times?

Nick Sweeney 09:51
Definitely. There are a couple of Santas that are just absolute dead ringers for each other. I mean, these guys are the real deal Santas. They look like this all year round. At Christmas, they have, you know, the traditional velvet cloak and fur and boots with bells on it. But even in the middle of summer, they're still wearing what they call Santa casual, which is, like, Hawaiian shirts with Christmas trees on them or like red hats. Like, they never, they never not Santa, to the point where they're like, they - some of the Santas would complain that, like, they couldn't drink in public, or they couldn't like pee at a urinal or they couldn't, like, give somebody the finger if they cut them off at a traffic light, because then they would be destroying the magic of Santa. So, yeah, I mean, it's kind of inescapable for these guys. They don't - they love being Santa, but also they kind of don't have a choice because they look like Santa no matter what they do.

Matthew Sherwood 10:45
Well, and I guess it becomes self-reinforcing. Once you become Santa, then you gotta look even more like Santa. And so, you've got to pack on the weight and grow the beard out more and all that. I mean, why, Stacey, why did these guys do it? Because it to me, it seems like it might be a thankless job.

Stacey Reiss 11:07
I mean, on one hand, you know, it pays quite well. So, it is, you know, that is a motivation. But I think for many of them, that isn't what motivates them. I think it's the interaction with families and with children, and it's, you know, building these memories, and they could spend hours and hours and hours. And you see this in the campfire scene a little bit where they tell us tales of meeting different kids and teenagers and what happens and I think it's, you know, that's what keeps them doing it, is the magic of it.

Matthew Sherwood 11:38
Okay. And what do they learn at santa camp? I mean, do they, or is this kind of an excuse for a bunch of old guys to hang out and drink beers around a campfire?

Nick Sweeney 11:48
They learn, like, extremely dense curriculum. And it was the real challenge filming the camp, because there's, like, consecutive classes running in, like, different venues...

Matthew Sherwood 12:01
Right...

Nick Sweeney 12:02
... spread across this gigantic campsite. We had to get around in golf carts and use walkie-talkies just to communicate with each other. They learned things - I mean, all of the courses have very funny names, like 'Perfecting Your Persona'. And, like, oh, things like, like 'Clause Couples', and, like, what else, like, 'Preparing for a Sleigh'. Yeah, like, they take it really seriously. It is like a university and they get certificates at the end of it. And what's really funny in the film is you see, like, in some of these seminars, the instructors are asking them questions, and the Santas are kind of nervous about answering. Like, there was one moment that's quite funny, where the instructor is like, what do you say if a kid asks if you're the real Santa? What do you say? Anybody? Anybody? Anybody? And the Santas are too afraid to volunteer and answer because they don't want to give the wrong answer. And what actually happened in that moment was the Santa with a disability named Fin, he communicates via a talker, and he volunteered. Like, I tell them, I'm the real Santa. And that was the correct answer. Like, that is what you're meant to say. That's the only correct answer, according to the Santa Society.

Matthew Sherwood 13:17
And did you learn any tricks of the trade that you didn't know before going in? Are there, like, secrets that they, you know...

Nick Sweeney 13:26
There's a lot of secrets, I think they prepare their backstory well in advance; like, because they really get interrogated by the children. You know, the kids being like, if I'm - like, if you're the real Santa, what's my name? And if, like, and so, they need to always have answers for that. One of the other things that was really interesting, and was kind of part of the reason why the Santa Society was becoming more diverse, is that the Santas had been getting - they'd been interacting with kids, I guess, who were starting to think about their gender identity. And so, the Santas were getting requests from boys for Christmas toys that are, like, traditionally associated with girls. Like, for example, boys, were asking for dresses or for easy bake ovens, and the same the other way around, they were having girls that were asking for GI Joes. And I think the Santas had felt kind of unprepared for that. Like, they hadn't really had to think about those things as much as they do now, and they were making an effort to be prepared for that and to not be judgemental, and to have answers ready for the kids who asked that, so that they don't come across as unprepared or judgemental, or you know, those types of things. So, they really have to be prepared. Like, it's a lot of pressure. And if they mess it up, then there's a lot at stake.

Matthew Sherwood 14:47
I think that actually we're going to take an early break. Let our sponsor have a word but we'll be right back with Nick Sweeney and Stacey Reiss, director and producers of Santa Camp, HBO Max documentary that premiered in November of this year.

Factual America Midroll 15:05
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew Sherwood 15:26
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Nick Sweeney and Stacey Reiss, the filmmakers behind Santa Camp. It's the HBO Max documentary streaming now. We were just talking about Santa Camp, and some of the issues that, or things that some of the older Santas were beginning to have to tackle with the children. I mean, did this start out as a film about Santa Camp? Or did - you know, how did this all come about? What drew you to making a film about Santa Camp? And how did you find out about this story?

Nick Sweeney 16:08
I was actually just curious about how Santas learnt to be Santa. I was, you know, when I first started thinking about it, I was like, do they get a certificate? Do they go to college? Like, you know, do they get background checked? And so, I started looking into it and found that there were a couple of different Santa schools in America. Three big ones. But one of them actually had - it ran a summer camp. And as a filmmaker, I was just kind of like, oh my God, oh, my God, oh, my God; like, how could it exist? How has nobody done anything about this? Like, do they sleep in bunk beds? Or is it like a lake? Like, I was just - my mind was spinning just with how interesting visually it could be. And so, I reached out to the organisers of the camp, and I asked them, you know, obviously, everything about it sounded surreal, and fascinating. But I was, like, is anything different? Like, are there any changes that are happening in their industry and the founder of the New England Santa Society, and the person who is behind Santa Camp, Dan, Santa Dan, said that they had been getting more requests for Santas from different backgrounds, and that they didn't have, you know, many diverse Santas in their ranks, and so, they had been looking to do outreach. And he also said that within the Santa Society, some of the Mrs. Clauses had been becoming increasingly vocal in calling for equal billing and equal pay, because, you know, many of the Mrs. Clauses had felt like they were overlooked. And so, when I heard that I was kind of like, Oh, wow; so, here is this kind of microcosm in which these huge issues around representation and equality are starting to play out. This was at the end of 2020; so, a lot of these conversations were happening everywhere, not just within the Santa community, but in all workplaces, and all industries. And so, I was really interested in that. But we didn't know how successful they'd be; you know, we were curious about how the Santas would respond to this. But, you know, it was when they started to actually do outreach to Santas from different backgrounds, that it got really interesting. And, you know, that kind of tension between the old guard and the new when this - you know, how can one of the most beloved traditions adapt to a changing America and changing world; like, those were very interesting questions that started to bubble up.

Matthew Sherwood 18:34
So, these subjects that are - so, you have these three main subject - well, there's more than three, but then there are these - there's, is it Chris, who's the Africa-American Santa? And, I mean, how did you - so, this is sort of totally organic. You weren't, you know, you just - they were already in conversations with the society about coming to camp, and then you were able - you happened to be there when this all happened; is that how it worked out?

Nick Sweeney 19:04
Some of the - so, we follow - there's basically kind of five main Clauses. There's Santa Dan, who's the organiser of the camp, there is Diane who is a professional Mrs. Claus, there is Santa Fin, who is a Santa with spinal bifida and his mom, Suki. There's Santa Chris who is a father in Little Rock who received a racist letter in response to his black Santa Christmas decorations, and in response to that, he decided to train to become a Santa. And then there is Santa Levi, who's a transgender Santa and his partner, Heidi, aka Dr. Claus.

Speaker 1 19:44
I think, sometimes we just worry that you're going to say the wrong thing and offend somebody. You know, you're just not sure how to deal with those situations. Especially today and today's politically correct world, and cancel culture and everything. You're just so afraid what to say.

Speaker 2 20:06
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 3 20:07
I'm Suki.

Speaker 4 20:08
Hi! Nice to meet you!

Speaker 5 20:10
Nice to meet you.

Speaker 6 20:11
We've tried to really work on just making ourselves more familiar with what's going on. And, I mean, we, you know, we were talking today on another topic, but just the whole pronouns issue that for us old guys, it's like, pronouns? What? You know? Things have really changed recently in acknowledging the gender issues.

Speaker 7 20:38
Gender Issues? And I was like, Yep, they're trying, but there's some other verbiage we could use other than, like, 'issues'.

Nick Sweeney 20:52
So, many of them were already in touch with the Santa Society. They had already, like, began to - they'd approach the Santa Society about coming to camp, they had already done some gigs. And then some of the other people were people that had online presences. For example, Chris, or Levi, had online profiles, because they had been doing Santa gigs. And so, the organisers of Camp reached out to them. And then, you know, we also reached out to them to see if they were okay with filming, and so, that's how the kind of ensemble came together. But there are a lot of characters in there, and they're from all over America. You know, Chris is in North Little Rock, Arkansas, and then the members of the Santa Society are dotted all up and down the East Coast. So, it was a logistical challenge, you know, covering these types of stories, especially coming up the back of Covid. You know, it was a lot of travel in this and a lot of big events.

Matthew Sherwood 21:50
I mean, not that this would be the normal reference that people would think of, but it did remind me briefly a bit of a Santa version of Boys State. I mean, because you've got all these different groups coming. You go to, you know, like you say, you go to North Little Rock. I don't know where Levi lives, but I think...

Nick Sweeney 22:10
... he's in Chicago. But yeah, Boys State is a interesting reference. And also Spellbound is another. It kind of has people from all over the place. And interestingly, Boys State was actually, you know, we really kind of did everything we could to study how they captured the events of Boys State, because it was a similar thing, it was a very condensed schedule, where people were coming from all over the place to a thing where everything is happening within a short period of time. And so, we did do some reading of Boys State, or how their cinematographer attacked that. And it was helpful for us.

Matthew Sherwood 22:46
I think they had more crew than you did. But I have a feeling, I don't know. But I think you did very well with what you're able to capture, because, yeah, you've got them all, you know, like you said, you follow them all the way up until they get there and everything. So, it's - no, it's interesting, because - we've had the people from the - the filmmakers behind Boys State on as well, and that's - it was quite a challenge. So, I imagine that - was that your biggest challenge, Stacey, do you think just...

Stacey Reiss 23:22
Yeah, I was gonna say, I've actually worked with one of the cinematographers on Boys State quite a bit. So, I was able to ask him sort of, you know, how they were able to not miss any moment. Because clearly, that was the, you know, the challenge for Nick and for myself, particularly in the scenes at camp. So, we had multiple units at camp because there were so many people and so many sessions happening, and, you know, walkie-talkies, and golf carts, and it was very, very carefully scheduled, so that we all had our own, you know, units and didn't miss anything. Because as you can imagine, we want to get each of those people arriving, we want to see them interacting with the other campers, and then, you know, not miss any of the key moments like the campfire scene, or when they do their parade through camp. And then the other challenge was at the holiday season. So, here we have, you know, five main, you know, protagonists in the film, and, you know, Christmas Eve is one day and Christmas is one day and it's like, wait a second, how are we going to be in all these different states with different people at the same time, but lucky enough for us that, you know, the Christmas season really extends from about Thanksgiving through Christmas, through New Year's here, and each of the different people had their key events at different times. So, we were able to be in those communities at different times in December and also not miss any of the key moments.

Matthew Sherwood 24:49
That's right. I mean...

Nick Sweeney 24:50
We was definitely really scared, though. I remember there was - there was like a solid month where I was convinced that, like, everything was gonna be cancelled because it was, you know, Covid was still kind of coming up, and...

Matthew Sherwood 25:03
I mean, Omicron was on its way, wasn't it?

Nick Sweeney 25:06
I think Stacey's much more level headed...

Stacey Reiss 25:07
... I mean, it was like, we could tell you stories of Nick and I, like, I felt like sometimes it was like, right in the rear view mirror behind us, everywhere. You know; so, we were very lucky, and I think the film really is, you know, I think it will hold up for so many reasons. But also, when you watch the film, we're lucky that people aren't, you know, really wearing masks, or it's not obvious that - it was a very arduous process to film this during Covid.

Matthew Sherwood 25:31
Yeah, no, that's a very good point. I mean, were you surprised because, I mean, in terms of how things played out at camp. I mean, you never know what you're going to get in some times at these sorts of situations, but sort of the reactions of the old time - well, it's not just the old timers, it's also the people who were coming for the first time, and then, you know, from, you know, different communities and their reaction. Did it - did anything really surprise you about how that all played out? Without giving too much away to, you know, to the audience, and, you know, no spoiler alerts here, but, you know, how did that play out? It was as expected?

Nick Sweeney 26:15
I think at camp, you know, a lot of the Santas that were there, had never really thought about a lot of these issues previously. Like, they hadn't really thought about how, you know, Santa does tend to be old, fat, white, and they hadn't thought about what it would mean to kids from different backgrounds to see themselves in Santa. And so, I think that like, you know, there was a little bit of tension between the kind of, you know, the old guard and the new guard and we see that play out in certain scenes in the film. And - but I think overall, like, it was a very positive experience. And I also think that sometimes you do see the old guard kind of struggling with some of these ideas a little bit; like, wanting to say the right thing, but not being sure about what they're meant to say, and worrying about getting, you know, like, getting things wrong, and I think it's really relatable. Like, I think we all go through that. And we all think about that. And no matter how hard we try to be perfect and to be great allies or to be inclusive and welcoming. Like, we all get it wrong occasionally. And you see that in the film, and I think that actually makes it more relatable to an audience and more human because, you know, if we didn't include those things that happened, some of them might be considered to be micro-aggressions. You know, it just wouldn't have felt realistic, it would have felt like this kind of magical fantasy land where everybody says the perfect thing 100% of the time, which is not the real world.

Matthew Sherwood 27:46
Right, or even - or you could even have the opposite, right, where it was just everything went horribly wrong and, you know, everyone's resisting or whatever, I mean, it's just kind of - it just seems, as you say, it's very natural, it's very as you say, it's something we all maybe even don't even consciously realise it, but it's something that we all struggle with, obviously, and I think we...

Nick Sweeney 28:08
I think we all make those types of, you know, little mistakes in our day-to-day lives, but usually we don't have a camera following us and so, we kind of get away with, you know, saying something that's not quite right. But yeah, I certainly think that it was overall a very positive experience for all of the unconventional Clauses.

Stacey Reiss 28:27
I was also going to say that I think what's great about it is that it's funny, and you can use humour to tap into these issues; and so, I think everyone is able to sort of make a mistake but then also laugh at themselves, and I think that's really helpful. I mean, I wish that sort of happened in the real world more where someone made a mistake or - and then they could learn and laugh at the same time, and it wasn't just so divisive.

Matthew Sherwood 28:53
Well, and now that we are a year on, basically, as Christmas approaches, any updates on some of the main - on the characters, this five main characters, is it - because you finish it, we see them going out and performing their Santa duties last year. I guess that is - they must be in full swing at the moment is that carrying on as far as you know?

Nick Sweeney 29:24
There's so many updates. I'm going to try to remember the top ones from the last couple of weeks. The - Santa Chris, the black father from Arkansas, has booked, he says around 250 gigs since becoming a Clause, and that's, you know, only in two Christmas seasons, which is massive. I mean, that's a huge amount of demand for a Santa. His calendar is completely booked out. And to Fin, who is the Santa with spina bifida, since the film came out, they've actually been getting messages from people all around the world. Places like Australia, and, you know, all corners of America, from other Santas who are disabled, which I think is incredible. They received a message from a Santa who was deaf, saying that he had thought that, you know, he didn't have much of a future as a Santa, but seeing Fin's story was very inspiring to him. And there was also a Santa, who has epilepsy who had reached out to them, and he also had thought that his disability could potentially preclude him from, you know, reaching full flight as a Clause, and that - he said that seeing Fin's story really inspired him. And one, all of them have their own updates, but another one that I actually saw because I occasionally check the Facebook group for the Santa Society, was that another of the Mrs. Clauses, one of the issues that comes up in the film is the Mrs. Clauses asking for equal pay and equal billing, and there was a Mrs. Claus on the message board, saying that this year for the first time, she's asking for equal pay, and she had two gigs that she normally does, and one had agreed to equal pay, and she was waiting to find out about the other one. So, it certainly has, like, made ripples in the Santa world.

Matthew Sherwood 31:11 I mean, that's an interesting point. We hadn't talked about it previously. Because there's a lot - I mean, you know, I've harkened on a few of these characters, but there are things there that, like, I would have just assumed it was equal pay, right. I mean, but it's obvious that it hasn't been. I mean, they've been getting - in particular cases, you know, half, right, or less than what some of the main Santas get, in terms of an appearance.

Stacey Reiss 31:38
It's interesting that you would assume that because we still don't have equal pay in the real non-Santa world. So, you know, I think that, like we - we were saying earlier that a lot of these same issues, even though it's, you know, in Santa land, which, you know, maybe isn't real, they are the same real issues that, you know, women and people are facing in professional life today.

Matthew Sherwood 32:02
Yeah. No, hopefully I'm aware of. I think it's just because I thought with, you know, I always think of them as a pair, as one - you know, you get one you get the other, you know, and they would be - that there would even be this kind of, how best to put it, negotiations around hiring Santas, right. I'm sure which happens all the time. And that, as you say, and what is obviously - and your film shows is that, yeah, they - disputes within the community, let alone trying to get people to pay them what they are worth.

Nick Sweeney 32:41
One of the funny moments in the film is when the Mrs. Clauses are doing what's called a 'Clause Couples' seminar. And one of the Mrs. Clauses says that in terms of the negotiation of the fees, like, that she's heard, a client will ask Santa and Mrs. Claus, and the Santa will say it's going to be 150 bucks, and then the client will say, Well, what if we don't have Mrs. Claus? Will it be cheaper? And then the Santa will be like, Oh, well, if we don't have Mrs. Claus, it's going to be 200 as a way of like, getting the clients to agree to book the Mrs. Claus. And that she should be, you know, paid equally and given attention. So, they have all sorts of tricks they're kind of negotiating.

Matthew Sherwood 33:27
So, both of you, I mean, now you've spent a lot of time with Santas, and you've made this great film, and - how does this whole experience make you feel about Christmas? Are you a bit tired of it? Because you're, like, living Christmas year round for a year or two, weren't you - I don't know - and it must be tough coming into another Christmas season. I don't know. How has it made you feel?

Stacey Reiss 33:53
Well, I'm happy that this Christmas season, I will spend it with my family. I have two children. And last Christmas, I was not around very much. And, you know, they knew this going into it, and they, like, love the film and are extremely proud of it, but I'm happy to have Christmas off this year.

Matthew Sherwood 34:10
And you Nick?

Nick Sweeney 34:11
Definitely. Like, it's weird. I feel like I've already experienced, like, 12 months of Christmas. And I had this weird experience, like, yesterday, the day before, where, you know, the film has been out for about a week and a half, and we got a bunch of media requests from CNN and USA Today. And I was like, Oh, that's right. Christmas season hasn't even started yet. Like, I was already like, we've, you know, this is - Christmas is over and so on and then these requests came through, which reminded me of the fact that, like, that Christmas is only just getting started and I'm definitely Claused out. But, you know, it's a wonderful experience to make something that makes people laugh and cry, which is what a lot of people have been saying on social media, that they're kind of ugly crying over Santa Camp. And so, that's been a nice feeling. And, you know, it's nice to make people feel emotions.

Matthew Sherwood 35:14
Well, I would just say - exactly - and I will say I - you know, I did a quick Google for black Santa, and the amount of merchandise now that comes up is absolutely amazing. You know, because of this one whole scene with the, you know, the - as you've already alluded to, the, you know, there was, obviously this horrible racist letter that he receives, because he's got a black Santa in his front yard, but, yeah, you can get, you can deck out your whole house in black Santas if you wanted to. So, that was actually really quite lovely to see. So...

Nick Sweeney 35:50
And also in commercials. Like, Oreo, I think maybe it's the first year that they've had a black Santa in their Christmas commercial. The Christmas commercials are, like, a big deal. They're like Superbowl commercials. And so, I think that, you know, seeing that representation is very meaningful to people. And, of course, along with that, there are some very ugly comments on social media about, you know, the Oreo commercial, and even about Santa Camp. Like, there are some pretty horrifyingly racist things that we've seen online about it, and, you know, transphobic, bigoted comments, and - which is confronting, but overwhelmingly, you know, it seems like it's moving towards more representation, which is a good thing.

Matthew Sherwood 36:30
Well, I don't want to end on a bad note, but have you been pers - I mean, have you had any - I mean, have you guys faced threats? I mean, I know while filming you must have. I mean, there's obviously a scene with the Proud Boys showing up, and looks like it had the potential to get - well, I guess you'd probably say it was already quite ugly, but it could get even uglier. I mean, how was that filming? And now, as you say, with some of the reaction?

Nick Sweeney 36:57
I mean, I don't think either of us - oh sorry...

Matthew Sherwood 36:59
Oh, go ahead, Stacey.

Stacey Reiss 37:00
I was just gonna say that I'm very happy that we were able to carry on with the event and keep everyone safe. That was obviously our primary concern, especially with young children and families coming to that event. So, you know, that was great, but it was definitely a scary shoot. You know, we hired private security, and we learned after the fact that there had been undercover cops circling the church where this was taking place. But for the people who, you know, were at the event, like Levi, and Heidi and the families, I mean, they really had no idea. They were able to really celebrate, and be themselves, you know, which was what we wanted. So, I think that, you know, had that event been cancelled, you know, hate would have won. And I think that what this film proves, no matter how many negative comments are out there is that, you know, that, you know, love and celebration will triumph in the end. And I think that we're already seeing a lot of change. And I think that all these Clauses can be, you know, they can, you know, light the fire for change in each of their communities. But really, then, it'll kind of ripple out, hopefully around the world.

Matthew Sherwood 38:10
Okay. Well, I sure hope you're right. And I think you probably are. So, I think we are coming up to the end of our time together, but maybe both of you: what's next for you all? Nick, what's your next project? Or can you tell us about it? Most of the filmmakers on here say, Oh, I can't really say anything. But maybe you'd be - it might be different. Do you have a project in the works?

Nick Sweeney 38:40
I do have a project in the works, but I, like many of the other filmmakers that come on the podcast, I can't say what it is. I will say that when I started making Santa Camp, I actually didn't think it was going to be a particularly controversial documentary. I thought it would be, you know, accessible for the family and Christmassy, and it ended up having a lot of very controversial elements to it. The next project that I'm working on, I'm also, you know, intending to make something kind of accessible and fun. But as with Santa Camp, it could end up being, you know, a little provocative.

Matthew Sherwood 39:15
Well you just never know.

Nick Sweeney 39:16
You never know. You really never know. I mean, you know, when I think Stacey and I first talked about doing the documentary, we really had no idea of the twists and turns that it would take. You know, we never thought that we'd be standing face-to-face with the Proud Boys. And we never thought that the Clauses that we would be following would have such extraordinary things happen to them. You know, the highs and the lows, like, there's just so much that happens in the film. And so, yeah, you really never know, and you think you can kind of imagine it, and it will always end up being completely different to what you set out to make.

Matthew Sherwood 39:51
And that's what makes it so wonderful, and it's also why - though you don't have any - why so many filmmakers have grey hairs, probably, because you just never know how that's gonna turn out. How about you, Stacey?

Stacey Reiss 40:04
Well, I came off producing a big series that's on Netflix right now: The Andy Warhol Diaries. So...

Matthew Sherwood 40:10
Oh, wow...

Stacey Reiss 40:11
.. that was a massive project, and Santa Camp, and now I'm in the development stage, developing a lot of different ideas. So, there's no set next thing. I mean, these two have kept me quite busy for this past year.

Matthew Sherwood 40:26
Okay. Well...

Nick Sweeney 40:28
... maybe something about the Easter Bunny. Stacey, what do you think?

Stacey Reiss 40:31
No Easter Bunny!

Nick Sweeney 40:36
Christmas is our only holiday documentary. For now!

Matthew Sherwood 40:40
Well, that's a good point. How many holiday documentaries are there? You know, you think about it, they're churning out all kinds of Christmas stuff every year, but, you know, it's not one that documentaries have really - Christmas might show up in a documentary. But it's never a focus, or a catalyst, is it?

Stacey Reiss 41:03
No, I hope this is going to be on the holiday watch list every year, you know...

Matthew Sherwood 41:07
Exactly!

Stacey Reiss 41:08
... you know, people - there's always the list of, you know, what you should watch this year at the holidays, and I love the idea that this is a documentary that people can watch with their kids. You can watch it, you know, at any age, and I think, you know, really enjoy it, but also I think it can be very revealing.

Matthew Sherwood 41:24
Okay, all right. Well, I just wanted...

Nick Sweeney 41:27
There are so few holiday documentaries - I was just gonna say like, there are so many Christmas movies. We churn them out. You know, there's, like, a huge industry, and yeah, there are very few Christmas documentaries. I think the ones that do exist are very - they don't have a huge amount of kind of drama to them, I guess. Like, sometimes they're just about very - they're very family friendly, kind of G rated. So, yeah, maybe - I hope other people do make holiday and Christmas documentaries.

Stacey Reiss 42:05
Maybe a Santa Camp sequel.

Matthew Sherwood 42:06
Yes. Yeah. You got a whole industry here. You've got, you see, not that you want to typecast yourself, but you could be the - you're going to be the Christmas documentarian and - or not.

Nick Sweeney 42:20
Quite possibly. Quite possibly. It wouldn't be - it would not be a bad path to go down because this one has been very fun to make.

Matthew Sherwood 42:28
All right. Well, I can tell, and it's been a thrill and a joy to have you on. I really appreciate it. Just to remind our listeners and viewers that we've been talking with Nick Sweeney and Stacey Reiss, the filmmakers behind Santa Camp, an HBO Max documentary that is streaming now and do check it out. So, thank you again, both of you, Stacey and Nick: been a joy having you on.

Stacey Reiss 42:53
Thank you. Happy holidays, everyone.

Matthew Sherwood 42:55
Yeah, happy holidays. I mean, this is very timely. I feel like maybe we should have been wearing our Santa hats and all that stuff. But, you know, people will have to wear their own while they're listening and watching this. So, thanks again.

Matthew Sherwood 43:09
I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 43:51
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