From the Tennis Court to New York: Exploring John McEnroe’s Life
John McEnroe’s volcanic temper on the tennis court is legendary. But there was always more to him than just the explosive outbursts.
In McEnroe, a documentary now available to watch on Sky Documentaries and streaming service NOW, John McEnroe takes a night time journey through his home town of New York, reflecting on, discussing, and interrogating his life on and off the court.
Joining Matthew Sherwood is the film’s director Barney Douglas. He shares how McEnroe has changed from his wilder, younger self, the triggers that still make him a challenging person to be with, and how McEnroe sees himself in relation to today’s tennis super stars.
Barney also discusses McEnroe’s ‘New Yorker perspective’ as a tennis player, his relationship with his father, and how it influences his relationship with his children.
The picture that Barney builds of John McEnroe is of a complex individual, one for whom connection and communication is important, who was an entertainer as well as a highly strung sportsman, and who is a thinker, not just a slave to his emotions.
In addition to discussing John McEnroe, Barney pulls back the veil on how he made his film: inevitably, Covid looms large, but so do exorbitant fees for archive footage; he had to make sure he asked McEnroe the right questions, and then, there is the use of animations inspired by Tron of all films.
McEnroe is a film that is built different, just like its star. In his short career, Barney Douglas has already made two other accomplished sporting documentaries – Warriors and The Edge – thus showing himself to be the right man to help John McEnroe tell his story.
“[He is] very authentic... there’s nothing Machiavellian about McEnroe. For good or bad, you know he will be very true to how he feels, and that's actually... a very endearing quality.” – Barney Douglas
Time Stamps
01:54 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s film, McEnroe, and his guest, director Barney Douglas
04:30 – Barney explains what McEnroe is about
06:22 – What it was like interviewing John McEnroe'
08:40 – Discussing John McEnroe’s character
12:27 – McEnroe’s perfectionism and uncovering his relationship with his father, John McEnroe Sr
17:19 – John Sr’s influence and the emptiness at the peak of tennis
19:20 – How John McEnroe sees himself in relation to current tennis greats
22:40 – McEnroe’s challenging but honest nature
24:39 – Discussing how Barney approached making McEnroe
27:26 – Barney’s inspiration for using animation in McEnroe
28:38 – Why Barney decided against exploring McEnroe’s post tennis career life in the doc
31:50 – McEnroe: A documentary made for the big screen
32:40 – How Barney came to make McEnroe
36:48 – What’s next for Barney
Resources:
McEnroe
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Barney Douglas
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 141: From the Tennis Court to New York: Exploring John McEnroe’s Life
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (01:54)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. McEnroe is an intimate portrait of one of the most explosive and compelling sporting icons of all time. Set over one New York night, the film takes us on a journey into John's memory to explore why a need for connection drove his tennis career, while nearly breaking him in the process. Director Barney Douglas joins us to talk about what it is like trying to get inside the head of this tennis icon. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:35
Barney, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Barney Douglas 00:39
All good, thank you very much. Good to be - good to be on the show. Thanks for having me.
Matthew Sherwood 00:43
Yeah, it's great to have you on. As our listeners and viewers hopefully know, were listening to the intro, we're talking about McEnroe. Premiered in 2022, although I guess it dropped on Sky earlier this month, is that right?
Barney Douglas 00:57
That is right. Yeah, a couple of weeks ago, I think. So, yeah, good to get it into British audiences who missed it in the cinema, which is cool.
Matthew Sherwood 01:05
Yeah, it's interesting as you look up the, like, any reviews or anything, they're all, like, from several months ago, but yeah, it's great to - you had the theatrical release, as you mentioned, and if I'm not incorrect, three sports Emmys, I think, nominated for, and you won one for editing, so, congratulations.
Barney Douglas 01:22
Yeah, that was great. A surprise, but really, really lovely. I guess you never expect to - you don't go into a film looking to sort of win awards or anything, so it's always nice to get a bit of recognition. And, yeah, really good night at the Emmys in New York. And it's surprisingly - it's interesting, I shouldn't disrespect the trophy, but it does fit a pint of Guinness perfectly in the top, so...
Matthew Sherwood 01:45
Oh, does it?!
Barney Douglas 01:46
... a good celebration afterwards!
Matthew Sherwood 01:49
So, for all our aspiring Emmy winners out there, just keep that in mind.
Barney Douglas 01:53
It has dual purpose, yeah!
Matthew Sherwood 01:57
It's kind of like the - well, what's the - the Stanley Cup in hockey, they do that. They fill it with Champagne and people take drinks.
Barney Douglas 02:05
Yes, there you go. The traditional winner's prerogative.
Matthew Sherwood 02:07
To keep the sports analogies going; so - no, I can very well understand - now having seen the film, I can very well understand why you got nominated and won some awards at the Emmys because it's not your typical, I would say not your typical sports doc. So, maybe for those who haven't had a chance to see it, what is - well, I think we know what it's about, but tell us what McEnroe is all about - this film, at least, and maybe a synopsis?
Barney Douglas 02:32 (04:30)
Well, I tried I guess [to] do a portrait of getting inside a bit more of his psyche than we'd be used to seeing. And obviously, it was a kind of document of his life as well, and his sporting career. But for me, it's always about the human story. I always felt like, what didn't we know about John? You know, plenty of people are aware that he's an angry tennis player, you know, and that was the - and aware of the surname, and that was, I guess, the extent for some people. So, it was about getting under the skin of him a bit more and just showing him from a different perspective and trying to understand where his behaviour came from, how good a player he was, which I think was often forgotten in latter years, and then trying to kind of wrap that into a kind of feature film of 90 minutes that felt cinematically like you had a natural endpoint as well. So, the very short basic premise is a night in New York with John McEnroe, really, sort of from dusk till dawn, him kind of drifting back into memory and trying to explore, I guess the way he is; you know, why he is. He's kind of an interrogation of himself, really. And yeah, shot in a way that, as you say, is not your traditional sports doc, trying to make it much more of a kind of cinematic experience, and a film experience, rather than just go, Oh, here's a sports doc and let's reel out some talking heads type things.
Matthew Sherwood 03:48
Yeah, and some archive, and let it run with that. But I mean, I imagine a true night out with McEnroe, John McEnroe, would be quite incredible.
Barney Douglas 04:00
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, it was made during the pandemic, so we were obviously a little bit more restricted than we would have been, but it sort of gives it this kind of slightly isolated, kind of empty cityscape, which in itself, I think brought an evocative atmosphere to the film, but absolutely right: a night with John, I think, on the Guinnesses probably something quite different!
Matthew Sherwood 04:24 (06:22)
Well - so, what goes on in John McEnroe's head?
Barney Douglas 04:31
Wow. I mean, what doesn't? I think - well, I can give you an insight into, I guess, the interview process because I think for John, his brain goes in all different directions almost simultaneously. So, you could ask a question like - you think's fairly straightforward, and it will start with an answer about that and then segue into something else and then from there, that's a doorway into something else, and before you know it, you're kind of three streets away from the original question, so...
Matthew Sherwood 04:59
Right.
Barney Douglas 05:00
... I think the challenge with John was kind of getting his energy down, and trying to get into a slightly more, I guess, reflective mood where you'd get the answers to the questions you were looking for. But yeah, his head goes - he's very analytical...
Matthew Sherwood 05:16
Yeah.
Barney Douglas 05:16
... very, very sharp, very - quite, I would say, sceptical in a way. I think he can be quite guarded. But at the same time, he's very authentic, so he doesn't - there's nothing Machiavellian about McEnroe. For good or bad, you know, he will be very true to how he feels. And that's actually - becomes a very endearing quality. And obviously, for a documentary maker, that's also a blessing as well.
Matthew Sherwood 05:46
I mean, as Patty Smyth, I think, mentions early on in the doc - I mean, she relays a story, but basically he's kind of hardwired this way. I guess we're all hardwired certain ways, but he's certainly this way.
Barney Douglas 05:57
Yeah, definitely. And I think that's kind of what the film sort of lays out. I guess, some of the evidence to kind of back up that she thinks, you know, he's potentially neuro-divergent, or there's something going on there that's never really been diagnosed. And he - I mean, he doesn't care about that at all. It's not - you know, it's other people around him that I guess, you know, obviously, Patty, his wife, has been with him over 25 years now, so she sort of knows him better than anyone. But I guess it's her and the kids that I guess, have had to navigate that. But for John himself, I mean, he's not too worried. But I do think it does explain a lot his behaviour, definitely.
Matthew Sherwood 06:36
All right, because I think some would probably think based on - I mean, this goes back many years, you know...
Barney Douglas 06:42
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 06:42 (08:40)
... his behaviour on the court when he was in his late teens and early 20s, that he's a troubled soul or superbrat as he was called here in the UK. But did you find him that way, really?
Barney Douglas 06:55
No, I think - we got him at a good stage of life. I think he has matured and mellowed. So, from that perspective, I think it was a good time to speak to him. But there's definitely a trigger in him, I think. There's definitely - there's certain things that set him off. There's timekeeping or having things - time being wasted, not being clearly told what's happening and why. And when you start to kind of experience this while making a film, you start to understand why, say umpires and things he could never - he struggled with, because (A) he saw the court quite mathematically and in dimensions. And if they didn't see it the same way he struggled to understand that. And secondly, if he's not being listened to - he doesn't have to be agreed with - but if he's not being listened to, that troubles him as well. And I do think certainly from a young age, he's found it difficult to socially connect with other people in a way that other people may find acceptable. So, I think that sort of becomes clear, and I think you see that in his relationship with his father as well, like, it's - I think they've always - the way they found a kind of common language, I suppose, was through his success in tennis. And when that wasn't there, I think that they struggled, certainly. What was the substance, you know, beyond that, really.
Matthew Sherwood 08:14
You know, you've raised a couple interesting - because I think in that same thing about what goes on in his mind and how he sees things, it came out, and I haven't realised this, but he basically he had no control over those - well, at least 90% of those outbursts is what he said.
Barney Douglas 08:31
Yeah, I think there's an element of - there's definitely an element of he's a performer, he's an entertainer, he likes the battle, he likes the crowd. It's the New York kind of perspective. And in London, obviously, and Wimbledon in particular, and I think even you could compare it to sort of test cricket of that age as well, you know, like, it's very considered and the respect and all this kind of stuff, but whereas he came from a New Yorker perspective where it was, like, crowds and yelling and throwing stuff and like, come on, and getting everyone up for it. So, there was a cultural difference, which he definitely enjoyed. But I think a large element was absolutely, yeah, it was just in him. That's just the way his brain worked. It was also the household he was kind of brought up in, and he wasn't able to control it, certainly at a younger age a lot of the time, I think. But it's interesting, because as you say, like the way he just had this mathematical analysis of the court, and his brain, he was extremely good at maths and his brain would do this, do the equations, and do the - so he'd know if it was in or not, but he would know and he couldn't understand that other people didn't see it the same way.
Matthew Sherwood 09:31
Right. Well, this also - yeah, no... exactly, and also...
Barney Douglas 09:45
Not to excuse some of his behaviour, by the way. I think, you know, sometimes he was just being an idiot.
Matthew Sherwood 09:50
Well, indeed, and I think it's a very fair portrayal, because I do - I'm of an age, and I remember sort of - I mean, certainly the difference between London and New York in the 70s and early 80s, was...
Barney Douglas 09:59
Well, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 10:00 (12:27)
... stark compared to what it is now, but at the same time, you know, and so a lot of excuses were made, and he was, like, you're kind of - actually, as you point out, he wasn't the original 'punk' tennis player, really. There were plenty others before him. You know Connors and Gerulaitis and others, but he doesn't suffer fools lightly, and that kind of goes back to this point you're saying about the father-son relationship. I mean, this is - your film focuses a lot on that. He was such a perfectionist on the court, and maybe you can say a little bit more about that, and why that drove so much of the film.
Barney Douglas 10:38
I think it was an angle that had never really been explored. Obviously, there's been lots of TV features about John, and another great documentary, The Realm of Perfection, which is much, much more focused on, I guess, his on court...
Matthew Sherwood 10:54
Right.
Barney Douglas 10:56
... performances. So, I kind of wanted to get into - go further and deeper, and get into the kind of much more the human elements of John, because I just felt that there was something unexplored there. And it wasn't something we necessarily set out with regards to his father, but it just sort of seemed to emerge. And I spent a couple of days on the master interview, and it was only by the last, almost, like, the last hour of the second day where he'd finally calmed down, and it became very introspective, and almost like a kind of therapy session. And that's when more of the father stuff started to emerge. And it just felt like really core, like, part of the heart of the film, really, because he - obviously him, John, now being a father himself, and struggling a bit with relationships with his own children, you know, this theme of connection, and I guess unresolved grief for his own dad and not quite understanding why he couldn't have the bond that he wanted, and now he was trying to make sure that he would have the bond with his own children and not to make the same mistakes, that to me felt a very universal theme. It wasn't about tennis at all, it wasn't really about sport, it was actually just about very human themes. And for me, therefore, as a filmmaker, I was always much more, I guess, drawn to that, and that's why that became central to the film. I think his dad was obviously - worked so hard all his life; big, gregarious, larger-than-life character, and probably struggled to understand John maybe as a younger, younger boy. And as a result, when he was showing success on the court, that was something that they bonded over. And obviously, John Sr, got involved as manager and agent and all this kind of stuff. And it just - the relationship, I guess, became a business relationship, essentially. And in later in life, when John wanted more, I think that created conflict, because he kind of basically - yeah, sort of said to his dad, step away from the management, let's try and build our own relationship, and that really didn't go down very well. So, a lot of unresolved pain there. And for me, that felt very, as I say, human and unique to the story and would take it somewhere away from what people would probably expect. I think, and, yeah, that was interesting to me.
Matthew Sherwood 13:14
It's an interesting point. I mean, we had the filmmaker R.J. Cutler on here, actually a couple of times, but he mentioned in - when we're talking about Belushi, the doc he did, that he - and he - then mentioned someone else, who I can never remember who it is, but some historian or some big name professor of the time, but basically said if you want to know the man, go to the daddy, basically...
Barney Douglas 13:38
Right, okay.
Matthew Sherwood 13:39
So, it's an interesting - I'm not saying that's always the case - well, I don't know, but it's certainly tried and true, I think it is an interesting perspective to bring to it.
Barney Douglas 13:50
Yeah, it certainly is, and it was just - as I say, then with John's own children, for me, it was interesting, that kind of battle that he was having to try and not make the same mistakes, you know; and it became for me a little bit - I mean, when I sort of sit back I sort of think, that's a little bit of a - when John's subsequently watched it - is a little bit of a parable for him. And kind of, like, a little warning for him almost, this kind of time capsule of, like, you know, you still - you don't have to necessarily go down the same route as your own dad, you can kind of - and that's I think what he's working really hard to do and to make sure - and Patty is I think very important in that she guides him quite a bit, I think, which helps him a lot.
Matthew Sherwood 14:33
And I think - I mean they weren't - just thinking out loud - I just - because I was a kid when he - pretty small kid, but you know, when he's really hit big and - but he was, you know, tennis was just everywhere at the time. And, you know, these guys were celebs and gods, and they're in all the tabloids and everything but, I don't know, I'd have to go back, but I don't know if there was any tennis stars before him that had their parents always in the friends box. You know, that's...
Barney Douglas 15:01
That's a good question, actually.
Matthew Sherwood 15:03
I mean, he was such - they were - I mean, if you were watching McEnroe, you always knew you're gonna see John Sr. and his mother there at the court, you know?
Barney Douglas 15:11
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 15:13
And it's this...
Barney Douglas 15:14
It's like they're sitting in judgement almost, isn't it? You're kind of like, they're almost up in the witness box.
Matthew Sherwood 15:19 (17:19)
And there's obviously - this has been dealt with, but you know, how - what role - as someone who is a parent myself and not wanting to make the mistakes of the father, but at the same time trying to live up to the father, that kind of thing, you just - what is the right balance, because obviously, if they hadn't pushed him would he have ever had the tennis career that he had, you know?
Barney Douglas 15:38
And that's the kind of I think, certainly it's why tennis is a really interesting sport, because it's a very lonely one in that respect, and you are out there on your own, and maybe you wouldn't choose that path, yeah, as you say, if you weren't pushed, I think to become a great in that particular sport, you have to - yeah, you have to start from a young age and you sacrifice a lot of youth and childhood, probably, to kind of to get to that level. And then I think as John found, and even Bjorn Borg found a little bit, you kind of, you've reached the pinnacle, and then it's kind of, I actually feel quite empty now, like, what's left, and whereas your parents may be, particularly if they're, like, your manager, and they go, okay, great, let's keep going. And you're, like, actually, I'm not sure I want to be doing this. So, that - and it's an age old sporting kind of, I guess, warning, isn't it? But it's - I'm not sure there is an answer, really. I read somewhere, I can't claim this, but I read somewhere that sort of amateur sport is for you, you play, you know, for your own enjoyment, and then elite sport is for the crowd, and it's for the fans, and it's less for yourself, and I think that's quite an interesting perspective to have on it. You give up some of your own enjoyment to be that good, almost, which is a strange way to think of it, but, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 17:00
And that's - and I think that's a very good point, because your film raises that as well. Because when he gets to the top, he's number one for four years, basically. You know, he's at the pinnacle of his game, but he's not happy, right? Seemingly...
Barney Douglas 17:01
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 17:06 (19:20)
... he says it himself. I mean, and then also, I mean, does he kind of, I mean, I think you're right, people forget what a great tennis player he was. But he probably - but he must also have regret - does he have regrets, himself? Because he probably could have achieved more if you think in terms of Grand Slams. And I also think - wonder how much of this is because we've gotten to this era where the greats have 20 Grand Slam - 20 or more Grand Slams, when, before that, having the number he had was - made you one of the greatest of all times, you know.
Barney Douglas 17:50
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think he has a subliminal feeling of that, that he's not in the pantheon of, as you say, these players now that have won 20, 25, and it's such a sort of business now. And it's kind of different sport, and I think he does feel a little bit - I wouldn't say overlooked, but I think maybe he gets a sense that actually people don't realise quite how good - and not just him, but some of the players were of that time particularly on courts that were bumpy, and they were - you know, it wasn't the even bounce, particularly the grass courts, that there are now, so, I definitely feel there's a sense of that. It's a funny one, but I also feel like he feels, you know, maybe, you know, I lived. You know, he loves the kind of - the reflected glory of, like, being around rock stars, and, you know, all of that kind of - he loves all that, and maybe if he'd just sort of stayed in and, you know, strung his racquet, and that was that, you know, yeah, it wouldn't really have suited his personality. So, I think all-in-all, he's come to the point where he lived and enjoyed as much as he could off the court, whilst, you know, achieving the pinnacle on the court, he was number one, as you say, for four years in a row, and, you know, and he did all that, and it didn't actually make him that happy. So, I think he - going and enjoying the other aspects of life perhaps made him just as happy, but whether that's a little bit of, yeah, sort of retroactive kind of fitting it to the way things go, I guess that's for everyone else to decide, really, but I definitely feel, because I was not a big tennis aficionado, I was never like, watched it in the summer, you know, when it would be at Wimbledon, never, you know, like, really, really deep into the game. So, I was surprised going back through the old archive of how good he was. I think that's what really actually struck me. And hopefully that comes across a bit more, you know, just genuinely what a great player he was, you know, so, yeah, that was really quite revelatory to me in the process of it.
Matthew Sherwood 19:59
I think this is a good time to take a quick break. So, we'll be right back with Barney Douglas, the director of McEnroe now on Sky here in the UK.
Factual America Midroll 20:09
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 20:28 (22:40)
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Barney Douglas, the director of McEnroe. Premiered in 2022, has had its theatrical release, and now finally here in the UK on Sky. Nominated for three sports Emmys, winning one. Barney, what's it like working with John McEnroe on a documentary? I mean, I just have this picture of someone turning to you saying you're not doing it right. You know, kind of thing!
Barney Douglas 20:53
Yeah, I mean, he's definitely challenging. There's no doubt about it.
Matthew Sherwood 20:58
He's a perfectionist, you know.
Barney Douglas 21:00
Yeah, I mean, I remember we sent him what I felt was, I mean, pretty much the final cut, and he and his wife Patty watched it, and they were like, This is great, this is great, you know, now we need to make it Wimbledon Champion. I was like, What does that even mean?! So, yeah, I was a bit frazzled after 18 months of it. I think with John, I just think clear communicate - I think we mentioned earlier, but clear communication, making him feel listened to, but also at the same time, you cannot be a doormat, either, because he doesn't respect that. So, you need to find a way where you don't pit your ego against him. But you also don't become a walkover. So, yeah, it was definitely challenging. But I kind of, with John, I think, if he really hates something, he will say it. So, if he wasn't saying there's no way I'm doing this, and I would just carry on doing it. I mean, that's kind of the way I approached it, really, and just try to be clear and honest. And if I disagreed with him, I would sort of present the evidence. I kind of - as I say - realised pretty early on he's a very analytical and sharp and intelligent guy. And he sniffs out anything that's...
Matthew Sherwood 22:15
BS.
Barney Douglas 22:16
... that's sort of, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, I was sort of okay, I know that. So, I just need to be brave enough to kind of, yeah, just be pretty straight with him, really.
Matthew Sherwood 22:29 (24:39)
And how do you - I mean, you talked about - we've already mentioned and alluded to it a couple of times about how this is not the typical approach to a sport doc, certainly. But how did you decide to make that - you know, how do you go about making a - what approach do you take, making a doc about a tennis icon who was also someone who's sort of an anti-establishment hero for many. And, you know, like I said, used to - says, you can't, you know, you can't be serious. You know, you know, and you can't take a standard talking head approach. Did he laugh at you when you said, we need to follow you along the streets of New York?
Barney Douglas 23:09
Yeah, I mean, there was a few challenges we had because as I mentioned, pandemic wise, that was restrictive, obviously. There was also the fact that his career is very front loaded, so it kind of faded away. So, you don't have a natural sporting endpoint, either of success or crashing and burning, you know, there was kind of, so there wasn't that arc to it. So, I felt like I needed to bring something to the table there. And also, just even from a financially practical perspective, the cost of tennis archive was insane. So, to make 100% archive film, for example, which is obviously quite a popular way of making sports docs recently, it's just not affordable; like, this film wouldn't exist. So, you have to find a way to kind of incorporate modern filming as well. So, I just latched on very early to this link with the city, the link with, like, the inside of his mind, and also retracing what I felt was his journey through life from, you know, childhood in this Douglaston sort of suburb of New York...
Matthew Sherwood 24:14
Right.
Barney Douglas 24:14
... to Manhattan, and then Patty, this lady that I feel, like, in some ways, kind of saved his life a bit, really, as the sun rises, you know, so it gave you this...
Matthew Sherwood 24:22
Right, right.
Barney Douglas 24:24
... this natural, sort of, forced arc in that respect, and then disappear off to memory from there. So, I sort of pitched this to John, over an extremely strong beer, and I think it appealed to him in terms of, it wasn't going to be a traditional sports film. I think he wanted to feel like this was going to be a bit different, and a bit special, and a bit, you know, just a bit more ambitious, and so, I think it sort of ticked those boxes, and - but I don't think he quite understood until we showed him some footage what I meant really, and, yeah, I can say that the waiting for - because we showed him cuts as we went along because I didn't want to be at the stage where he was suddenly, No, no this completely not what I imagined, and I'm quitting, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 25:08
Right, right, right.
Barney Douglas 25:09
... you've got to kind of - so, I sort of wanted him to feel involved throughout, so I would show him cuts as we went along. And, he, yeah, and he sort of got it, I think, pretty quickly. So, just let me keep going, so I kept going!
Matthew Sherwood 25:24 (27:26)
And then, as you say, it's not - I mean, your typical sports doc doesn't usually have, you know, animation. Tron-like animation becomes a storytelling device. How did that evolve?
Barney Douglas 25:38
Again, similar things. Like, I kind of wanted to pay homage to these kinds of 80s American films that I really loved growing up and get it away from, as we've mentioned, what you might expect in a sports film, and just make it a kind of a filmmaker journey, really. So, there was, yeah, Tron was a really good touch point. For me, it felt great to try and do some animation from that perspective. And really get inside his head that way. The sort of city at night, there's a film called Thief, which I referenced quite a lot, which is about this Michael Mann film, about this kind of loner guy who's kinda searching for meaning, and, you know that, you know, that felt very, very similar. And the kind of - even down to the palates of these kind of neon blues that we use throughout the film. I just wanted to make it a visual feast, as well as, you know, a kind of an intimate feeling portrait of this guy. So, I sort of just poured all those influences into it, really, and just try to, as I say, make it feel like, sort of was kind of from that era. So, that was the idea behind it all.
Matthew Sherwood 26:40 (28:38)
And at the same time, he's had another great career, in a way. He's an amazing tennis commentator. I mean, he's iconic in that way for another generation or two.
Barney Douglas 26:53
Well, that's the thing. I mean, that was the one thing I sort of thought, Is that something that we needed to kind of get in the film, but I actually felt his journey is, like, his sporting journey, and then as a kind of a man, essentially...
Matthew Sherwood 27:06
Right.
Barney Douglas 27:07
... kind of done before then. And yes, he's a great commentator, but it didn't feel like something that needed to be part of the film, but what it did present was an interesting challenge, because he's used to speaking in...
Matthew Sherwood 27:17
Interesting, yeah.
Barney Douglas 27:17
... repeat, similar kind of phrases, and all that kind of stuff. So, it was like, Okay, that's great for broadcast, but actually wasn't quite the kind of, as I say, introspective, slightly slower kind of delivery I was after for the film. So, it was just another sort of slight challenge that you had to get through in the interview process to kind of get him out of those habits, really. So - but at the same time, it means when you did need a kind of light hearted quip or whatever, he was very good at delivering them. So, you know, work both ways.
Matthew Sherwood 27:52
Reminds me of - I mean, I know people who do political docs, and it's very similar. You've got these - they're used to speaking in sound bites or whatever, and just repeating them over and over again. And then, how do you get to the real person, you know.
Barney Douglas 28:04
Yeah, you've got to find backdoors. You've got to find questions that I think they would not normally obviously be asked, but also that would make them think - immediately make them think in a different way, you know, like, a strange example for me, but one of the things I kind of started a really good conversation with John was, you know, like, what does love mean to him, and it was something that he almost couldn't - he'd never been asked that in his life. So, he was just like, it didn't really compute and he really - because he's very authentic, he really committed to thinking about what it was, and that obviously then set off a sort of a conversation about [...] but also his father and what he'd felt from him and then it opened up all these doorways to the answers and the kind of stuff that I was really looking for. So, it was challenging for me, and I had to, in the interview process, I guess, I had to get better and learn and evolve and try and work out how to get round the kind of, as you say, the sound bites of this guy, but also try and get into him in a way that he'd never thought before, he doesn't think like that. So, that was actually one of the fun parts of it.
Matthew Sherwood 29:14
And while I think about it also, I just wanted to say, and it was some advice I got about another doc I've watched recently, to anyone who hasn't seen it, and is going to check it out on Sky, definitely use the biggest screen and best sound system you've got because...
Barney Douglas 29:28
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 29:28
... because of the look and feel you give it. I'm glad I did. We don't have a large TV in the house, but we have a certainly better than a laptop screen, you know, and...
Barney Douglas 29:37
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 29:38
... in HD and everything and so, it made a - it's quite an evocative and artful film in the best sense, especially...
Barney Douglas 29:47
Yeah, it's tried to be very immersive, basically.
Matthew Sherwood 29:50
Yeah, exactly. Is a way put it.
Barney Douglas 29:52 (31:50)
You know, we really made it for the big screen, and we were in for that kind of sit there and really, like, just sink into it. So, I'm glad you're able to find a big TV, because certainly some of the earliest stuff is obviously quite dark. So, like you shooting through New York, and we did all that all in pretty much one night, in one go, and we just went for it and jumped out of the van and just kept going. You know, we didn't have - it was literally me, camera guy Lucas, and a producer Paddy, and that was it, you know, that whole film was pretty made - made probably by three people. So, you know, we kind of - we just went for it. So, it's definitely, yeah, you know, if you can avoid watching on a laptop, [it'd] be good. If you've got a big screen at home, that's definitely the way to do it.
Matthew Sherwood 30:39 (32:40)
Yeah, no, I highly recommend it. And how did you become involved in this project? I mean, I know you have, you know, some background with cricket docs, and...
Barney Douglas 30:49
Yeah, well, the last - yeah, the last film we did was The Edge, which is about the England cricket team. And they're kind of - there's a mental health aspect to that and everything. And that was - that did pretty well, and the producer on that film, she was working with a company called Dogwoof in the UK that I'm sure you are familiar with, and the McEnroe rights, I think, were sitting there, and they - I think there'd been previous attempts to make this documentary in the past, and it'd all kind of crashed and burned because the relationships with John had been difficult and all that kind of thing. So, Victoria Barrell, the producer, said, Do you want to go and meet John, and would you be interested in directing, you know, trying to resurrect this film, and do a new film and try and direct. I was like, Yeah, great. I mean, McEnroe, I knew the name, I knew that he was obviously an angry tennis player. That was pretty much the extent of it. So, I went to New York, and I met him, and he answered the door in his dressing gown. He had been on a big night out, I think, the night before, so that was one of the most surreal experiences of my short documentary career. And I just, I don't know, I just kind of - I was used to dealing with sports, I guess egos and big players and stuff like that. So, I kind of, just said kind of film that I was envisioning, and started the process there, really, and we just Zoomed quite a lot. We had chats. I got to know him, and I just tried to build a relationship until he was like, Yeah, okay, let's do this type thing. So, that was it, really. It was just fortuitous. I was in the right place. But I think sometimes, yeah, these things work out that maybe you look the right character for the right film, you know, at that particular time, so.
Matthew Sherwood 32:27
Well, exactly. Because, as you say, others had tried. Others had tried, they didn't get - certainly didn't get anywhere close to as far as you did. I mean, do you think that - I mean, do you think having knowledge, but not really, like, it wasn't like you grew up a superfan or anything like that, you think that's helpful?
Barney Douglas 32:44
I do think it's helpful. I wasn't in awe of him from that perspective. And also, I wasn't too caught up in, you know, tennis. So, I wasn't caught up in a particular point in a random game in 1983, you know, in Detroit or something, and it just wasn't my focus. And I think that really appealed to John, because it's gonna sound weird, but like, you know, he's bored of that, like, he's bored of that kind of thing. He knows, of course, that there's elements of his story that - to do with the tennis - that need to be dug into and presented, but I was very much about the humanity of him and actually presenting him as a - shining different lights on his personality, rather than the stuff that'd been sort of, I guess, repeated ad infinitum, over the last 25 years. So, that appealed to him, definitely. So, I think he was pleased that I wasn't just grilling him over various technical aspects of his game.
Matthew Sherwood 33:40
The 84 French Open versus Lendl, and all that kind of - I mean, it's in there, but obviously, you had to show that but yeah, you're not getting fixated on any one point, you know.
Barney Douglas 33:52
You're trying to do it from - exactly, I was trying to make those big sporting moments mean something else, you know, what else is - how, what different angle can you come at this from, and that, as I say, I think appealed to him definitely. And we talked music, and we talked, you know, influences and bands and all that kind of stuff. So, I just think maybe he just felt like I was somebody that he could get along with. And maybe I was giving him a bit more time to understand him, and listen to him, maybe than he'd experienced previously. But there's still to begin with, obviously, there was that slight, you know, concern. He doesn't necessarily differentiate between a filmmaker and a journalist, for example. So, you know, I think to begin with he had to sort of get past that and realise that we had a different relationship.
Matthew Sherwood 34:42 (36:48)
And so, it appealed to him. I think it's certainly appealing to a larger audience. It's definitely a film worth checking out. We're actually coming to the end of our time. I just was going to ask one last question, if I may: what's next for you?
Barney Douglas 34:57
Good question. I have got a couple in development at the moment, one's a kind of more environmental sort of angled documentary. It's a hybrid doc. So, it's quite - it's gonna be quite another sort of leap into the unknown. But I'm really, really excited about that. There's another project with Dogwoof as well that I'm working on, which I can't say anything about yet, which I'm excited about. In fact, there's three that I'm working on, none of which I can say the names of yet.
Matthew Sherwood 35:27
You guys never can say anything-!
Barney Douglas 35:29
I know! Documentaries are an interesting landscape, because when I first started, I felt like it was quite a democratic kind of place to be. If you could find a story and the trust of whoever it was about, then you could, you know, you were in a position to make the film, but it's obviously exploded as a genre, for want of a better word. And it's, you know, big companies, big studios, all that kind of stuff are competing for these stories. So, it's - yeah, it's a tricky, tricky landscape. So, sometimes you have to keep them a bit closer. But I promise you once this [is] further down the road, I'm very happy to chat to you about them.
Matthew Sherwood 36:06
Well, we'd love to have you on again. It was great...
Barney Douglas 36:08
Yeah, love to.
Matthew Sherwood 36:08
... having you on. Really, really appreciate it, Barney, but we - just to remind our listeners, we've been here with Barney Douglas, the director of McEnroe, it's now on Sky here in the UK. I'm sure you can stream it elsewhere if you're anywhere else in the world. And yes, nominated for three sports Emmys and won one. So, thanks again, Barney. It's been great chatting with you, and I look forward to having you on again. Take care.
Barney Douglas 36:29
Lovely. Thanks very much.
Matthew Sherwood 36:30
All right. See you.
Matthew Sherwood 36:34
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Factual America Outro 37:14
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