Kiss the Ground: How We Can Reverse Climate Change

Factual America

17 Nov

Written By

On a daily basis, we are inundated with more bad news about the environmental catastrophe caused by climate change, unfolding in front of our very eyes.

But is it too late? Can anything really be done? It's enough to make us give up. Many of us have. But a simple solution may be literally underneath our feet, according to the Netflix documentary Kiss the Ground from award-winning filmmakers Josh and Rebecca Tickell.

Kiss the Ground reveals that by regenerating the world's soils, we can completely and rapidly stabilise the Earth's climate, restore lost ecosystems and create abundant food supplies. Is it really that simple?

An inspiring, solution-based approach, focusing on regenerative agriculture, this film is a must-watch for anyone interested in how we can reverse climate change.

“There’s so much joy to put your hands in the dirt, feel the dirt, and literally kiss the ground.” - Rebecca Tickell

Time Stamps:

03:20 - The climate crisis the world is facing and the solution this film puts forward.
04:13 - How happy Josh is with the movie's reception.
06:25 - A brief synopsis of Kiss the Ground explaining how they plan to reverse climate change.
07:30 - The natural way most people respond to climate change.
10:18 - Using soil as a solution to our climate problems.
12:38 - How we’ve destroyed our topsoil over the last few hundred years.
18:37 - The regenerative farming methods we can use to solve this problem.
25:06 - The need for change in global agriculture because of our increasing population.
28:14 - What politicians think about these practices and new related policies.
32:15 - The ways we can turn cows from being a problem to being a solution.
37:31 - How the idea for the film came to fruition.
44:04 - Biodiesel and how they got Woody Harrelson involved in Kiss the Ground movie.
46:33 - The hardest part of making the movie.
49:42 - The importance of graphics and how they decided which ones to use.
56:28 - What it’s like working together as a couple.
58:39 - The next project Josh and Rebecca are working on and what it’s about.
1:02:33 - The power that Generation Z has.

Resources:

Kiss the Ground Movie
Kiss the Ground on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram
The Kiss the Ground Movement
Fuel
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 37 - Kiss the Ground: How We Can Reverse Climate Change

Joshua Tickell 0:00
I'm Josh Tickell. I'm one of the directors of the Kiss the Ground movie.

Rebecca Tickell 0:04
I'm Rebecca Tickell, I'm also one of the directors of the Kiss the Ground movie.

Speaker 1 0:10
There's so much bad news about our planet. It's so warm. Truth is, I've given up. This is the story of a simple solution, a way to heal our planet. This solution is right under our feet. And it is old as dirt.

Speaker 2 0:34
All of our soils that are under chemical, conventional agriculture are almost completely devoid of microorganisms.

Unknown Speaker 0:43
Modern agriculture was not designed for the betterment of the soil.

Speaker 4 0:48
Fossil fuels are by no means the only thing that is causing climate change. When we damaged soils, carbon goes back to the atmosphere.

Speaker 6 0:56
but when we destroy soil, it releases carbon dioxide.

Speaker 5 1:02
Biosequesteration is using plants, trees and techniques of grazing and farming to capture carbon and store it in the soil.

Speaker 6 1:10
We can fix a lot of our climate issues

Speaker 7 1:13
So we bring the CO2 down into a living plant and put it back into the soil where it belongs.

Speaker 8 1:18
Plants working with soil microorganisms, it seems too simple.

Speaker 6 1:21
Healthy soils lead the to healthy plants, healthy plants - healthy human, healthy climate.

Speaker 9 1:29
There could be a way to eat food that heals the planet.

Speaker 10 1:34
The problem isn't the animal. The problem is where the animals are at.

Speaker 11 1:39
How do we take waste and repurpose and reuse it, because it's really not waste.

Speaker 12 1:44
The poop has to stay in the loop.

Speaker 1 1:46
Compost is just one of a suite of soil based carbon capture solutions.

Speaker 13 1:51
We know how to do it. And if we continue to scale over 30 years we can reverse global warming.

Speaker 14 1:57
We can get the Earth back to the Garden of Eden that it once was by regeneration.

Speaker 15 2:03
To see biodiversity return to a place that was completely devastated, that gives me hope.

Speaker 16 2:08
Our health and the health of our planet are connected.

Unknown Speaker 2:12
If you look over here, my neighbor's land that has been chemical fallowed, then you look over at our paddocks, you have a diversity of different plant species. Which model do you want your food to be produced on? The answer is pretty simple to me.

Speaker 1 2:27
I'll make you a deal. I won't give up and neither should you.

Intro 2:35
That is the trailer for the Netflix documentary Kiss the Ground. And this is Factual America. Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.

Matthew 3:18
On a daily basis, we are inundated with more bad news about the environmental catastrophe unfolding in front of our very eyes. But is it too late? Can anything really be done? It's enough to make us give up. Many of us have. But a simple solution may be literally underneath our feet. According to the Netflix documentary Kiss the Ground from award winning filmmakers Josh and Rebecca Tickell. Kiss the Ground reveals that by regenerating the world's soils, we can completely and rapidly stabilize Earth's climate, restore lost ecosystems and create abundant food supplies. Is it really that simple? We found out when we caught up recently with Josh and Rebecca from their home in California. Josh and Rebecca Tickell, welcome to Factual America. Josh and Rebecca, how are things with you?

Joshua Tickell 4:13
Well, you know, considering there's a global pandemic and we're releasing a movie in the middle of it, awesome.

Matthew 4:21
One of our guests said COVID good. I think that's starting, I'm starting to use it now. I think anyway, we're all in the same boat together. The great equalizer, hopefully. So award winning, co-directors and co-producers, a wealth of great, incredible credits you have, but what we're here to discuss, as listeners have already heard the trailer, is Kiss the Ground, which Natalia Winkelman of the New York Times describes as "a persuasive and optimistic plan to counter the climate crisis". Narrated by Woody Harrelson. It's available Netflix or rent for $1 on Vimeo. What can you get for $1 these days? You can get an incredible documentary. So well done. Thanks so much for coming on to the podcast. So I guess I should start by saying congratulations. Netflix audiences love it. I see your trailer has over 7 million downloads. I think you're aiming for a 100, though. How do you feel, I mean, pandemic notwithstanding?

Joshua Tickell 5:34
I think we're overall, totally overwhelmed with the response to the movie. It's exciting to see people picking up. You know, this is a story ultimately, of hope and empowerment around an issue that we've all felt very disempowered around. So to see audiences and viewers responding to that in a positive way, during what could be categorized as kind of a dark time. I think it's a real testament to human spirit and to the desire to have a better world.

Matthew 6:07
I think we'll quickly touch on that optimism and other elements of this film, shortly. But maybe for our listeners out there who haven't had a chance to see it, maybe you can give us a synopsis of the film?

Rebecca Tickell 6:24
Sure. Kiss the Ground is a film about how we can reverse climate change through drawdown, which is biosequestration, taking all that extra carbon that we put up into the atmosphere and drawing it down into healthy soil. And this is a breakthrough because we are all sort of at the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, around climate change and desertification. And the fact that there is a place for all this carbon to go and it's right under our feet and it's so simple, is such a breakthrough. And the amazing thing is that the answer has been here all along.

Matthew 6:59
Okay. That's a very, it's a perfect synopsis, as someone who's seen the film and found it very uplifting and encouraging. But just want to get to, you have an innovative start for a climate change doc. I think we've already heard in the trailer, we've got Woody Harrelson that basically starts off saying - I've given up and I bet you have too, essentially, if I paraphrase. Do you think most people have given up?

Joshua Tickell 7:29
Human beings tend to be local optimists, we tend to be very optimistic about our family, our home where we live. But when it comes to the macro, we tend to be very pessimistic. And that has to do with the wiring of our brain, we're just generally not wired to think in terms of global level ideas and problems. So climate change, big problem, very, very negative idea. Most of us are in a state of paralysis, shock, realism, somewhere between, you know, I've given up, I don't care, and I'm going to stick my head in the sand. And that, and then we feel guilty about it. And then we, you know, or denial, and then people in the climate movement, make other people feel guilty for feeling that way. None of that is, nobody should feel guilty about it. This is a natural response to an overwhelmingly large problem. And I think if you begin to pull apart the problem and say, well, what really is the problem? To Rebecca's point earlier, the problem is very simple. We have put the carbon in the wrong place. It needs to go somewhere else. And when you break it down into super simple terms like that, it suddenly becomes very manageable. It's a management problem. This is a same problem that you have in your house. When your house is a mess, you've put the mess in the wrong spot. And so we've made a little mess. Well, it's a big one. But the essential mechanism is the same for cleaning it up.

Matthew 9:02
Okay, I mean, for me, watching this and having dealt or danced around the subject really, in some ways on many of our podcasts, it feels like this is a bit of the, for me, at least personally, this is sort of the missing piece of the puzzle. To your point about scaring ourselves into inaction, I guess, we've addressed, we looked at, I'm not trying to name names, but we've looked at the inconvenient truth and how that is sort of pitched. And then more recently, we've looked at two docs that dealt with factory farming, one on the eating animals, one dealing with the livestock side of things and what soilism, dealing with the ag side. We've recently had the David Attenborough people on documentary about Life on Our Planet. But I feel like, and that's talking about biodiversity, feels like this is the first one I've really seen that focused on the soil. And is that, that really is what this is all about. I mean, it's Kiss the Ground. I mean, this is the, the answer there, as you said earlier, is underneath our feet.

Joshua Tickell 10:19
Yeah, this is an elegant solution to a seemingly intractable problem. And the solution is very simple. Soil, when it's healthy, is 50% carbon by weight. Plants, when they're healthy, pump 40% of the carbon dioxide that they breathe down through the roots into the ground as carbon. And the microbes, which are really the conveyors and the movers and the shakers of the underworld, those little critters, their job is to convey carbon to deeper and deeper levels. So, if we manage that ecosystem for health, and for well being, the ecosystem will actually do most of the work that we need to do in order to balance our climate. It's not us creating some new technological invention or some new scientific idea. This is us helping nature, working with nature, still producing foods, still producing fibers, still producing feed, all those things that we need. In fact, producing way more than we are today. But in so doing, from a healthy ecosystem perspective, storing tremendous amounts of carbon, you know, gigaton level amounts of carbon, that can balance the atmosphere within 20 to 30 years. There's no other proposition on the table that can do that. So, hey, make farmers more money, make more food, balance the climate, help the water cycle. Yeah, this is a new idea. But it's an extremely powerful idea.

Matthew 11:56
Sounds like a no brainer. And I think we'll get into some more details of these solutions in a few minutes. But maybe it's worth also talking about how we got here. We're very well aware of all the carbon we've been burning in fossil fuels and things like that. But I think what was an interesting element of your doc is, what we've done to the soil as well. So maybe you can give us a little sort of, my feeling is we've created a sort of global version of the dustbowl, or are in the process of doing that. So maybe you can give us a little look back in terms of how we've gotten to where we are now.

Rebecca Tickell 12:36
Want me to do it, you want to do it?

Joshua Tickell 12:37
You go ahead.

Rebecca Tickell 12:37
Okay, basically, this is all we talk about. I mean, we really, this is our life. So it's like, how far into this do you want to go? But I think really, since settlers have come to America, we have been just stripping the topsoil. And we've lost two thirds of the earth topsoil. And that's from what we've been doing here in the United States for the last hundred years tilling and spraying chemicals. And we, it only took us a little bit of time to destroy that incredible, rich, healthy life in the ground that was here. And that was sort of managed and lived in conjunction with by Native American people, indigenous people for so long. And then we came and we just ripped up all of that topsoil. And that's kind of what we've been doing, as a species around the world, is going in and really extracting from the environment, without really thinking seven generations into the future. And so that's what we've done here. And back, when that's what happened, after we've ripped up all of that beautiful topsoil, and then suddenly, just it turned into dust. And the farmers went dust and the air was just filled with all of this dirt - desertification, and that's what we're seeing. It's still happening today. There was a plan, the NRCS was created to help farmers learn how to live in harmony with the land, make sure the land was always covered to reduce the tilling. But then, after World War II, all of these chemicals had been used in World War II, that had been used to kill people. But they had this incredible machine that they wanted to keep running after the war ended. And so instead of fighting people, we started fighting the pests in the field, on the food that we eat. And without really thinking about what the consequences of that might be, long term, in terms of our overall health. And the result has been decades of chemical use and degraded soil and years of dust bowl that is expanding around the world, unfortunately. But the good news is that through regeneration, we can reverse that degeneration, that desertification and that's ultimately what these regenerative agriculture practices are all about. And, you know, I'm actually a sixth generation farmer. My dad is in the Midwest in the US in Ohio, soy and corn. And we have a little regenerative farm here where we actually made Kiss the Ground. Kiss the Ground is actually made in an avocado barn, that we've converted into a movie studio and we're regenerating our soil here. And our two children that were born during the last seven years that we've been making this film, their whole life has been about regeneration, and they're self proclaimed farmers as well. So they're kind of like the seventh generation farmer in my family. And I think the idea is that no matter what side of the spectrum you're on, whether you're a farmer in the Midwest, or you're a regenerative farmer in California, like we're so at odds right now. But regeneration is something that is so unifying for everyone, no matter where they may fall in the political spectrum, or just in terms of their philosophical views. It's really, this is a global issue that we have been dealing with since the dawn of time. It's really a shift right here. It's a shift in our heads. It's a mental shift that we have to make to really make this work.

Joshua Tickell 16:02
I just want to add one point to what Rebecca said. You know, when we talk about civilizations, and we look at the macro scale. You know, the United States being an example of a modern piece of the civilization. Alan Toynbee wrote this incredible treatise, called Civilization. And in it, he details the rise and fall of 20 some odd civilizations over the course of human history. And really, if you look at that, from an ecological perspective, what each of those civilizations did, is they outstripped the resource base. They degraded the soil, they moved farming operations further and further from the city center. And eventually, the lines between food and population became so tenuous, and the environment that sustained that population became so degraded, that the environment could no longer sustain the population. And when we pull back and look at Planet Earth, we've degraded two thirds of the planet. Two thirds of the planet we've turned into desert or semi desert. So what we've done is we've done this experiment 20 some odd times, it's failed every single time, bar none. And now, we've attempted the experiment on a global scale. The big difference is, for the first time in human history, we have the macro ability to pull back with satellite technology, NOA, NASA, all these international agencies, data crunching, big numbers. And we have been a moment, sort of hanging in space, to say, woaw, we've done it again. This time, we did it really big. And we can keep going or we can reverse it. And we finally have the biological necessary understanding of how to reverse it and feed 10 billion people. So we're at this critical moment in human history where we could continue the experiment, we know the outcome it's gonna end the exact same way the 20 some odd other experiments in civilization building ended. Or we could do a new experiment, which is called global regeneration - regenerate the soil, store the carbon and rebuild an ecosystem that can sustain 10 billion people. That's what the Kiss the Ground movie really is about.

Matthew 18:20
Okay, I think that's, you touch on a lot of things that certainly I was hoping to raise so thanks for that. I think, as you said, regeneration, so broadly, the solution or one of the solutions, is regenerative farming. What are the, maybe you can give us some ideas of maybe some more specifics of what we're talking about when we talk about these sort of solutions.

Joshua Tickell 18:52
Definitely. Let's define regeneration and then we can talk about the farming methods. Regeneration is basically the operating system of nature. It is the operating system upon which ecology is functioning. Very simple, you pull a leaf off a tree, the tree regenerates the leaf, it grows a new leaf. When a lizard loses a tail, it grows a new tail. And what we have not, heretofore known as human beings, is that the macro of an ecosystem works the same as a micro. So you desertify a forest, the forest can come back. And what is inherent in that ecosystem is the same memory that's in the tree, the same memory that's in the lizard. It's called ecosystem memory. The microbes remember how to rebuild soil. The seeds remember how to go into the ground, things remember how to grow. So what we're seeing is regeneration as a concept, is now firmly, firmly accepted as a macro ecological concept. Therefore regenerative farming, or agriculture, or ranching, is a way of producing food, in which you're constantly regenerating the soil. You're building the topsoil, you're building those layers of soil that may have taken hundreds or even thousands of years to build. We're rebuilding them in three to five years, using intensive ecological organic management. And we can talk about the specifics of what that looks like. Do you want to go into defining the specifics?

Rebecca Tickell 20:24
Yeah, basically, it's you stop tilling, you stop spraying all of the chemicals, you let the land start to heal. And essentially, you want to grow things that mimic what it was before we came in and disturbed it. So if it was an oak tree savanna, that's now just orange groves, for instance, you would want to bring back the oak and you would want to try to mimic how nature developed that region, and then build into that a managed system of biodiversity and food that we can live along inside of. And so it's really a forward thinking model. But really what you're trying to do is jumpstart the small water cycle. And once you jumpstart that small water cycle, and you're drawing and attracting rain, and you're storing it in the soil, as you begin to build the soil through animal integration, through keeping the ground covered at all times, through keeping those animals moving like they were being moved by a predator as they naturally would be in nature, by having a built-in insurance policy, which is biodiversity, not just having a monocrop that then is susceptible to drought, blight, everything. You know, in order to have a healthy immune system, we have to really build in biodiversity that no subsidy system could ever provide. And not only you're building in an insurance system policy immunity for that crop, but you're building that in for the entire environment, for the ecosystem, for the people who are out there working on the land, for the people that live in that environment, in that community. And overall what you're really doing is you're jumpstarting rain. And then you're jumpstarting that small water cycle that continues to grow. And so, when Josh says global cooling, potentially by 2050, which is what we're talking about, you know, that's what we're looking at is how can we attract the rain? How can we have healthy spongy soil that mimics what it once was, before we came in, stripped it of life, and planted a single thing that we thought would be the most profitable. And the irony is, when we stop spraying chemicals that we think are being used to feed the world, really, what you're doing is creating the opposite effect. It's kind of a backwards thinking, you know, yeah, you may get rid of the chemical for a minute, but you're going to have to pay more for more inputs. Ultimately, you're going to have lower profit margins over the years, lower output, and the soil is just going to degrade and blow away. So it's going to get more and more expensive. It's already a broken system. So literally, what's been discovered is that, like Josh said, in three to five years using these basic principles of regeneration, that land can increase the soil organic matter, that life in the soil, that can store water, and most importantly for all of us, store carbon.

Matthew 23:09
Can I just say, I don't know, if I've had two filmmakers who know their subject as well as you do. I think you've definitely been living and breathing this for most of your lives. I want to, I had it later in my notes, but I think you raise a good point. I think what the film does so well is illustrating, you know, it's not just, it never preaches, that's for sure. Is that, you offer solutions. And you offer palatable solutions. I think on the farming front, you're just talking about, and is it Gabe Brown, the rancher up in North Dakota, who's, you know, you talk about what his yields are and his profits. And you talk about how much fertilizers needed now, to grow a bushel of wheat versus what it was in 1960. I mean, we're just basically zapped all the nutrients out of the ground, and you're just having to use more and more chemicals. We know the same thing with the livestock side, the number of drugs that need to be fed to these animals in order to keep them from croaking before they need to be, you know, harvested basically. So I think that's a very compelling element, many compelling elements to this film. But I think it's very interesting to see, basically what I'm getting to is that, this seems like a sector, specifically if you're talking about agriculture, that's just ripe for disruption, isn't it? I mean, it's just a lot of people who just have been so tied into doing farming a certain way, that it's just that tough, you almost need that sort of bridge, to get from one way of doing things to the other. Would you agree?

Joshua Tickell 25:03
Yes, yeah. And look, whenever you get to a crisis point in any massive industry, there is the opportunity for disruption. And we're at that moment with global agriculture. What most people don't realize is there's a massive calorie gap that comes into play between now and 2050. 2050, we'll have about 10 billion people on the planet, according to the United Nations. And if we backtrack that, to the current rate of increase of food production, using all of the chemicals, all of the GMOs, all of the high tech, ag tech, you know, satellite positioning and all that wonderment, we have a widening calorie gap that leaves us with a billion people not fed in 2050. There is no political or economic system on earth that can deal with that kind of catastrophe. So unless we have a disruption, we are going to create our own disruption. And that is when an industry is ripe for change. Certainly, the global agricultural market, you know, you're talking about a total market cap of, you know, well over a trillion dollars and up. And so, any major business entity that is looking at food, which is apart from water, the most basic commodity, you know, it's inelastic, the demand is infinite for this. Any major entity, whether it's a government or a major corporation, would be stupid not to look at regenerative agriculture, because the bottom line with regenerative agriculture is more profits. Why? Carbon in the soil equals fertility. If you don't have carbon in the soil, you are farming on the moon. You are sustaining plant life with chemicals and with fertilizers. You're not using the inherent superpower, the turbocharged power of microbes. And microbes live in a carbonaceus environment, they don't live without the carbon in the water. The water doesn't go without the carbon. So carbon, carbon carbon, we keep coming back to the central idea. If we want to feed the world, and if we want companies to be profitable, which, you know, it's capitalism, let's face it, let's make companies profitable. But in order to do that, we're gonna have to put the carbon in the soil. So we're talking about a multi multi multi billion dollar opportunity, both in terms of carbon credits, reaching into the trillions of dollars, and in terms of feeding the world. Which is why everyone in the world, including hardcore capitalist who want to make a lot of money from food, should go to Netflix and watch the Kiss the Ground movie or go to kissthegroundmovie.com and watch it for $1. Because this is the next global industry.

Matthew 27:54
Okay. And where are the politicians in all this? I mean, you have one in your film.

Joshua Tickell 27:59
They're catching up.

Matthew 28:02
And we have a lovely French agricultural minister, former minister, but that seems to be it. Are they that far behind?

Rebecca Tickell 28:13
Here's the thing. We have to be louder than the lobbyists. That's all there is to it. I mean, there really is an information gap. There has been an information gap. It's not that these techniques and these practices haven't been around. But for the most part, people don't know about it. Most people don't know what regenerative agriculture is. Or that it's a pathway to drawing down carbon. It's kind of, you know, even though it's been around, it's a new concept for most people. And so politicians are really going to speak to what they think their constituents want. And if their constituents don't know about biosequestration, then that's not going to be what they're pulling for. But certainly the chemical companies are pulling for something. So I think, you know, it's an information gap. And once we, as the people, begin to understand how this system really works, and we get informed and educated around this issue, we can really start to see these changes put into place. Because, you know, we live in a world where, when we all agree to something, we can make it happen, as evidenced this year by COVID. So if we all agree that what we need to do is regenerate the planet and reverse climate change, then clearly we can do it. It's just a matter of being louder than the people who are in it for other reasons, like profits.

Joshua Tickell 29:26
And I think there are signs of policy hope. And I separate policy from politics, because this is a very ipolitical movie. This is a movie that does, if you watch it, inspire reasonable and smart policy. You know, we saw Biden mentioned carbon sequestration through soil in one of his statements. Senator Cory Booker has put forth a piece of legislation that outlaws a confined animal feed operations. That's a really, that's a key element to making this new system work, is getting rid of those confined animal feed operations. And we see in France, as you mentioned, Stefan Le Foll with the 4 for 1000 program, the former Minister of Agriculture for France. You know, he's really operating inside of an entire system in France, which encourages something called bioregionalism. Bioregionalism means protecting the biology of each region, including what's grown there. So that's a great way of incentivizing farmers and ranchers to make products that are really specifically from their region - cheeses, meats, wines, but also produce vegetables, fruits, the things we know we're supposed to eat as human beings to be healthy. So, you know, there are multiple policy mechanisms for making this happen. And I think there is super, super big encouragement to be had from from seeing, you know, the first little steps that are being taken around the world.

Matthew 31:04
I think that might bring us to a good point for a little break for our listeners. And we'll be back shortly with Josh and Rebecca to continue talking about Kiss the Ground.

Factual America midroll 31:17
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 31:37
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Josh and Rebecca Tickell, the co-directors and co-producers of Kiss the Ground, which can be seen on Netflix or the kisstheground website, if you would rather look at it that way. LA Times described as "it's dense, but nutritious. The science is explained in simple terms with plenty of visually striking graphics and animation." Josh, Rebecca, we've been talking a lot about agriculture, regenerative farming. You know, the one thing that surprised me and having seen a lot of these films, cows are not the problem. At least that some of us have been maybe led to believe. I mean, they are problem in one way. But they can actually be part of the solution, can you explain?

Rebecca Tickell 32:31
The only way to bring this desert back to life is through animal integration. So if you want to take a place that's completely denuded of water, completely denuded of any micro organisms, you need to start to bring in that life. And ruminants are the way that you can begin to do that. And that's the only way that we can really do that on the kind of large scale that we need to do. There are other ways too, like compost, covering the ground, you know, cover crops, that kind of thing. But really, you need cows at this point, because we've wiped out the buffalo that roam. And so there's a way to bring back together the systems that we've separated. So we've taken all of our livestock, and we've moved them over into these small confined animal feed operations. And then we've taken all of our food, we moved it over into these other monocrop industrial systems that really have their roots in slavery, if you think about it. Where one person really gets the most benefit, and the people out front aren't. But in other systems, it's really just mostly mechanical. And there's really not a lot of interaction with the land itself. And so, we have to start to bring animals out onto the land the way that they would have before we came in and moved everything around. And cows are one of the best ways to do that. But again, it's different for different regions, depending on what was there before. You want it to really, you don't want to just stick cows in a place where that's not the best place. There are lots of other ruminants that can do a great job as well. And also, you know, managing different types of species. You don't just want to have one type, you don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket, so to speak. So that's how we're able to bring this dirt back to healthy living rich soil. Is through the stomping of the hooves and through the urine and through the fertilization that they bring. It's miraculous what animals can do when they're back out in the land and moving.

Matthew 34:32
Yeah, and I think your film does extremely well in showing that and showing how areas have bounced back from these new old farming methods.

Rebecca Tickell 34:44
I forgot to mention the most important thing, which is the difference between when you have cows in a confined animal feed operation versus when they're out roaming in nature. So when they're in a confined animal feeding operation, at CAFO, you're going to see a net green house gas emissions. You're going to see more emissions coming out of that CAFO than if you have a cow out in the pasture. But the thing that people don't know is not only you're gonna see less, you're actually going to see a net drawdown of greenhouse gases when you have cows out in pasture. So it's the opposite scenario that we have, when we have separated our cows from our food. When they're combined and working together in harmony with one another, overall, what you're going to see is drawdown.

Joshua Tickell 35:29
And to that point, to Rebecca's point, it's important to understand that according to archaeologists and really the big studies that have been done on total number of ruminants, there are far more ruminants on Earth, pre-Industrial Revolution than post-Industrial Revolution. So this idea like, we've got to get rid of the cows, the cows are the problem... Like there were way way, way more multi stomached creatures roaming in herds prior to us inventing the way that animals should be treated. And what we do know is the biogenic cycle, the cycle of moving carbon and methane around the planet, managed itself quite well, until we humans decided that we would put these cows in feedlots and chickens, and so on and so forth, and create this abomination. So, as Rebecca said, I think it's something the film points to, Kiss the Ground, the movie points to, but I think we can all agree it's time to not have animals in those conditions. Whether you eat meat or not, nobody wants that. That is, it's not right. It's just not right.

Matthew 36:37
Yeah. I think anyone, and as someone who's watched some of these films have shown some of these conditions. Yes, I think you'd have to agree on that one. I certainly do. We'll talk about some of these issues some more sort of towards the end. But I do want to talk a little bit about the project and the filming of this. Which is one thing we do look at on this podcast. And I'm going to channel my granddad here and basically say, how the hell do you go about making a compelling film about dirt? I mean, how do you. What you've done, you know, but if you told people I'm gonna make a film about dirt, I don't think that's gonna get, I'm sure when you were trying to go to investors or however you financed this, I'm sure they were... didn't necessarily say - yeah, count me in, you know. I mean, whose idea was this?

Joshua Tickell 37:32
Not ours.

Rebecca Tickell 37:34
It was a terrible idea, actually. Like, the expression is "boring as dirt".

Joshua Tickell 37:41
Wow, this is gonna be a great movie. Wow, hold us back.

Rebecca Tickell 37:46
We have just made four movies about oil. So you can imagine the next thing we wanted to make a movie about was soil, even more compelling.

Matthew 37:54
Just and and S on the front.

Joshua Tickell 37:56
You know, the real, the bottom line to this story is, we've been in the environmental and climate movement for a long time. Me for, you know, basically, all of my life, 35 of my 45 years have been working in environmental issues. Ever since I was a small child and grew up next to an oil refinery. It really prompted me on this journey to look at solutions. And when Rebecca and I got together, we got together inside the context of this work. We began making our first film Fuel, which won Sundance. It was shown in the White House and shortlisted for an Oscar. It was all about solutions to the oil problem. And we, as a community of environmentalists, and climate concerned human beings, have been looking for the missing link, you know. Great. Al Gore announced to the world, you know, climate change 2006. My god, this is scary stuff, icebergs and polar bears the whole thing. And the solution that was proposed was to screw in a light bulb. I'm serious. That was, that was the uptake. And I think that really disempowered an entire generation of people. Because the technological fix was so miniscule, compared to the scope and the scale of the problem. And there's a terrible joke, you know, how many environmentalist does it take to screw in a lightbulb? And the answer is - it doesn't matter. And that's, it's horrible. But in some sense, it's true. Because we, as a community, knew that until there was an overarching solution, a new context if you will, to look at the problem inside, we were going to keep spinning our wheels in more fear based data. And there's plenty of data out there that'll just chill you to the core. I mean, this is, you know, this is serious stuff. We've managed planet Earth like we just came out of a drunken brawl, and we're driving a car backwards as fast as it will go down the highway. And so when our community kind of stood up and said, Look, you got to do this thing about soil. And they started throwing the data at us. That was hard to walk away from. Because when you look at the quantity of carbon dioxide, that legacy load in the atmosphere, and you go, Okay, how are we going to get that out? Like, what's the plan? Lightbulbs, solar panels, electric cars, all of those efficiency and non fossil based alternatives have merit, but they don't suck carbon out of the atmosphere. They just prevent us from putting more up there. And our community was like, No, look at the data. Look at the numbers, Josh and Rebecca, look, look, look. And finally we did. And it was like, oh, man, this is going to be tough. But we have got to do this. Because this is the most important data that we've ever seen. It shows empirically, that we can draw the carbon down into the earth soils, and that is big news.

Rebecca Tickell 41:08
And also, you know, we sound like we're saying we discovered regeneration or regenerative agriculture or anything like that, I mean. But it does strike us like a big revelation and strikes most people like a big revelation because of where we're at with carbon and the climate crisis.nd desertification most importantly. So I think when you look at it through that lens, suddenly, these practices aren't just cool farming techniques, like permaculture. Suddenly, this is access for humanity to have a pathway forward. And you know, as far as we're concerned, what conversation is more important than that?

Joshua Tickell 41:44
Yeah, there's two conversations. There's the current conversation, which exists globally called game over. And then there's this conversation, which is, we can live on this planet indefinitely.

Matthew 41:58
Well, there's been a report, I think it was even yesterday, that basically said that, I didn't realize China had had this whole program of planting trees. And they think that that is actually soaked up half the carbon that they've generated over their most recent economic development period. I mean, it still means they're a net contributor, but it did, you know, it has obviously done something. And when I heard half, I mean, I thought that was absolutely amazing, when you think about it. And I think it feels also like, we're saying the politicians are way behind the curve. I think, as individuals as a society, we always, it feels like we're behind the curve in terms of the science, as well. And I think these are, it's interesting, each movie, or let's say movies over the last few years, it seems like oh, you know, another little bit of a, it's not that the pennies dropped, but just feels like okay, that's a little more insight. And that's a little bit more insight. But what I do, I honestly mean this with this film, I felt like this is the sort of the thing that finally brought it all together in my mind. Because, lots of stuff, horrible things about factory farming, industrial agriculture, what it means for the biodiversity, and there needs to be solutions. But I think the one that just, it's maybe because it's not sexy, it's not animals, it's not, you know, we're talking dirt, right. I mean, I know there's a difference between dirt and soil.

Joshua Tickell 43:38
Dirt is sexy. Dirt is dirty.

Matthew 43:39
You're making it sexy. Speaking of sexy and all these things, you've got, you brought Woody Harrelson on board. Now, was that at the start? Did you start with your narrator? Or that was more late in the process? And how did you get him involved?

Joshua Tickell 44:02
He's been pretty patient. He recorded three narrations for the film.

Rebecca Tickell 44:06
Wait a minute. Before we can talk about Woody, we haven't talked about the veggie van. Because if it weren't for the veggie van, then we wouldn't have had Woody. The veggie van, as far as I'm concerned, is another reason that Kiss the Ground got made. I saw Josh driving the veggie van back in 1997, on The Today Show. Veggie van was powered by biodiesel that Josh made from wasted cooking oil at fast food restaurants. And so he would go around and convert that vegetable oil into biodiesel or sometimes just he can converted his car to run on straight vegetable oil. And he did this huge tour promoting his book that show people how they could do that at home. And that became sort of a sensation and movement. People hadn't been making biodiesel to the extent that they had after that until that book came along. And then Neil Young and Woody Harrelson and Willie Nelson, a bunch of people got their hands on from the fry to the fuel tank, and then they started converting their cars. And so Woody had this bus that he ran on biodiesel and every time the fuel pump would break or something would be broken down by the side of the road, he would hand his phone over to his assistant to call Josh to figure out how to fix their broken down car. And so fortunately, it built some good will. It paid off.

Joshua Tickell 45:23
It wasn't that they, they didn't break down that much, but they wanted to use hemp biodiesel.

Matthew 45:29
That must have been, Willie must have been involved with this as well.

Joshua Tickell 45:31
Making hemp biodiesel, you know, circa 2003 or 2 or whatever year it was, it was like really tough. So we had a lot of questions and we had to deal with a lot of craziness. But we got their bus going and they did a tour on hemp biodiesel from hemp seeds. But the answer to the question is, you know, all these people are committed to the same thing, Woody is one of them, he has been committed from the start, he is still committed, bless him for being so patient and re-recording the narration over and over again. The hardest thing for making the film was not getting the wonderful artists who are in the film, you know, Woody and Gisele Bündchen and Ian Somerhalder all these wonderful, wonderful people. Jason Mraz and Patricia Arquette. Tom Brady. Yeah. And that was not hard. The hardest part of making the movie was we had a committee of sometimes up to 200 scientists, PhDs, people from the IPCC. You know, people in different fields. This was not just climatologists, this was biologists, these were soil scientists, these were very different fields that don't cross collaborate. They don't usually talk, they don't go to the same dinner parties even. So we had them on one hand, reviewing cuts, telling us specifically what needed to change. And the other hand, we do about 10 to 20, big test screenings each year with our community. So we bring in, you know, what we thought were people that represented the audience that the film would go to. And a lot of these people are very sophisticated. But the answers that we got back from the audience about what wasn't working with the movie, were things like, I don't know what carbon is. That is a direct quote from a certain audience survey. And I remember the person who wrote it, they're a business owner. And they're very sophisticated person, they were, I don't know what carbon is, you have to tell me in this movie. And then another person, I don't know the difference between carbon and carbon dioxide. And so, on one hand, we're dealing with PhDs, a bunch of them who are trying to rewrite the movie. So that's scientifically accurate. On the other hand, we're dealing with the common public, who is like, we don't know the difference between carbon, carbon dioxide and water molecules. That's why, that took five and a half of the seven years of making the movie, was creating a consolidated cohesive language that the scientists would agree on and say, yep, that is accurate, that is correct. And that audiences could actually watch and be like, Oh, I understand what's going on for the first time. And I think, as you said, we do have an information gap. And part of our job as filmmakers is often not making the movie, but conveying really important scientific concepts that somehow the education system failed to convey, which without those concepts, we can't address things like climate change.

Matthew 48:44
And I think that brings me to a point, I want to give a shout out to whoever's behind your graphics and animation. Because I think that's one element that is very, it's what is innovative about this film. I mean you're not the first ones to use animation and graphics as part of a doc. But the way it's done, I think it makes me want to, I'm going to sit down and have my teenagers sit down and watch it. Because I think it's a very good way of illustrating it. As humans, we were already talking about how, as humans, we don't deal with the macro. I think different ones of us learn in different ways. And I think for those who are certainly visually oriented, I think it's a great way in terms of getting the points across. So, is that part of this process that you had, with the scientists on one side and the focus, your community, or focus groups on the other?

Rebecca Tickell 49:40
Oh, so it was, yes, it was so frustrating. Because, you know, we did so many more graphics than what even ended up in the film. Because as we've been making this movie over the last seven years, really this movement has been coalescing. And so nobody would agree on anything in the beginning and we would put you know graphic out there for it, in a draft. And then suddenly, everyone was losing their minds because the numbers were wrong. And nobody could agree on the numbers. And I remember it was like, hundreds of emails that were impossible to keep up with. And finally, we were just like, you know what, we're gonna go talk to Paul Hawken, who everyone says has the final word on this. We're going to drive up to San Francisco, we went to his home, we sat down with him. Josh is like, show me, he's like, show me. And so we finally pulled out of his brain, you know, what ended up being the mandala of curve that goes up, up up up, up of carbon in the atmosphere, parts per million, and then suddenly, it starts to come down. And then you have global cooling. And so this concept of drawdown, and being able to visually show that, for us was extremely important to be able to convey the message. And the other thing that I personally love in the film is that we give carbon, you can see it. Because part of the issue around this is like we're talking about carbon, like it's this invisible enemy that's going to kill us all, you know. But we're made of carbon, you know, we're 16% carbon. And so, you know, showing carbon in these little bubbles going up, when you do certain things, like if you're, if you're killing the soil, or if you're spraying, you'll see the carbon going up. And then if you see carbon going down, it's, you know, in the form of these little bubbles going into the earth and turning into phyllome and humus and all these things. And so we're able to show how it works in this way, and almost make it a character in the film. And that was, I think, helpful for everyone to be able to see it in that way, not just to hear the words. Because, I'm definitely a visual learner, and for me one image can teach me something that I couldn't learn, you know, in a couple of days.

Matthew 51:42
And I thought that same, go ahead.

Rebecca Tickell 51:46
Yeah, so without the graphics, I think people wouldn't be able to really hear the film and all the information it contains.

Matthew 51:54
And then, I thought that was sort of what I was alluding to. Specifically the carbon that was just sort of, it's very subtle, but it's there. You know, it's reinforcing what you're additionally seeing and hearing. And it's not, for those who haven't seen, it's not just a bunch of talking heads, by any stretch of the imagination. You know, I think it's all very integrated in terms of how you get this message across and help us who maybe even not have a scientific background kind of start getting it, in terms of what's happening. In terms of stars, you talked about carbon being a character. I think, yeah, we already talked about the film stars, but I think you've got some real stars in there. And people like Ray Archuleta, you've made a conservation agronomist, sort of a sexy character, you've got Gabe Brown, the regenerative rancher, the Markegards who've made me rethink all the career choices I've made in life. And I love this Pashon Murray from Detroit Dirt. Are these people that you consider part of your community? How did you meet these people? And I think they really, each in their own way, sell the film and the message you're trying to get across so well.

Joshua Tickell 53:19
Well, they are a part of our community now. And these are the true heroes of the soil movement. You mentioned Ray Archuleta first, and Ray's a fascinating guy, because, you know, his background as a Hispanic person is, you know, really interesting. He's in a extremely white industry - farming. And he comes from a very different perspective, having worked in the Peace Corps in Guatemala. And so you've got these people who run counter to the norm. And we talked earlier about the disruptive power of regenerative agriculture. I think that the people that we tried to profile are disruptors. And they speak to the power of this big disruptive idea. They're, you know, they're different. They look a little different than the average person in their industry. And they might be a different color, or they might have a different perspective. But you know, just like Pashon Murray in Detroit, she's creating soil from all of these leftover scraps from General Motors and from zoos. And so, you see these examples of people who are genuinely leaders doing this, not because anybody told them to, but because it made sense. And each one of them now has millions of followers around the world because people are watching the movie and go - I want to be like Pashon. I want to make compost and I want to make dirt in the city. Or I want to be like Ray Archuleta, I want to teach people about soil. And that's amazing, to see the power of leadership, just through example.

Matthew 55:12
Again, everyone needs to see the film, but I think, even in some of those sessions Ray is holding, what I found interesting is, like you said, you've got you some, straight out of Central Casting, some of these farmers look. But then there's other sessions where you've got a younger guy, and he's got like his laptop up, and I don't know, maybe he's gone to that state's Agricultural University or school and, you know, even Ray says he never learned anything about soil. And he's an agronomist, you know. So this is all very, and Gabe says, you couldn't find anything about regenerative farming years ago. Now, you can't open up a trade magazine without seeing something about it. And so, you know, these things take some time, but it seems like, not to oversell it, but it seems like there is change afoot.

Joshua Tickell 56:06
Soil has become sexy.

Matthew 56:08
Yeah, there we go. You heard it here first. First the film. But you've heard it here second. Just a few more points, we're coming to the end of our time together, unfortunately. But what's it like working as a couple? I mean, I love my wife, but I would drive her crazy to work together.

Joshua Tickell 56:29
We always get along, and we always agree. So that makes it very easy.

Rebecca Tickell 56:36
No, we don't. (laughs) I thought that would be appropriate thing to say about that. But no, the truth of the matter is that we are really compatible. And this is what brought us together in the beginning. I had a feeling when I saw Josh, driving that veggie van, for some reason, I just had...

Joshua Tickell 56:56
She had a feeling she could put up with me.

Matthew 56:59
He had you at veggie van.

Rebecca Tickell 57:02
I was really, I was deeply moved by what he was up to. That he'd come from, you know, the Gulf, and seen family members get sick from poisoning from oil companies. And here he was, like teaching people how to make their own fuel from a waste stream. I mean, like, ah. So I think I just really respected what he was up to. And I've been in the film business since I was eight. I was actually in a Christmas movie called Prancer when I was eight years old. That's kind of the Christmas classic here in the States.

Matthew 57:28
We did our research, I could see that, yes. You got a great review, by the way.

Joshua Tickell 57:33
The holidays are coming up, guys.

Matthew 57:37
You're still getting residuals. So please watch Prancer. It's got to be Prancer.

Joshua Tickell 57:44
If you watch one movie, watch Prancer. If you watch two movies, watch Prancer and then Kiss the Ground.

Rebecca Tickell 57:49
Thank you. And I think what I learned from that as a child was the power that films have to change the world. And so when I came out to Hollywood, as a young adult, I really wanted to make movies to change the world. And then suddenly, there was Josh with his veggie van. So it was really clear to both of us that we both were deeply committed to this concept of regeneration before we even had the language for regeneration. But that's what we both wanted to do with our lives. And so it doesn't leave much space for us to argue over things that aren't as important to us. It really sort of helps us keep things in perspective, which is why we call our company The Big Picture Ranch. We really do try to stay aligned in our commitment to the big picture.

Matthew 58:31
And what are some of your, what's your next project that you're working on?

Joshua Tickell 58:37
Well, funny you should ask Matthew, we've got, we have a six part TV series that we're putting together. With many of the favorite characters from the Kiss the Ground movie, but we go deeper and we get to know them more. It's updated, of course, with new information. And Kiss the Ground is going to be available to every school in the world for free. So we're doing a big global push with the Kiss the Ground movie, as well as a scholastic addendum that will come with the film for school teachers and students. That's exciting. That'll be available virtually, as well as on DVD for students who are either at home or hopefully one day back in schools. And then beyond that, we've got a couple of other films that we had started a long time ago, when all this happened. And those will finally get to see the light of day, hopefully in the next year. And, you know, yeah, lots of good stuff coming. But moving into education, and moving into the TV series space, to bring this message forward in new and exciting ways.

Matthew 59:47
Well, we look forward to seeing that series. Do you know yet where it's gonna be showing or streaming?

Joshua Tickell 59:55
We have hopes.

Matthew 59:57
You're negotiating that?

Rebecca Tickell 59:59
It'll be on a streaming platform.

Joshua Tickell 1:00:01
Widely available.

Rebecca Tickell 1:00:03
We don't know which one, we don't know exactly, it will be somewhere. But mainly, it'll be in schools. As far as we're concerned, those are the people that are most interested in this information, because young people these days have rightly been deeply concerned about us adults getting our acts together around this issue. And I completely understand. And they're like, Hey, we don't want to go to school, so you guys figure this out. Well, good news, we can all go to school and learn a little bit about regeneration and this pathway for them to have this awesome future. And I think that, you know, young people really have been so disenfranchised. They're just really deeply concerned about their future in a way that we can't understand in older generations. Like they've grown up inside of this conversation, their whole life, that their future is screwed. And so for them, when they learn that there actually is a pathway, they're like, I'm the compost King now and I'm 12. But like, this is my life now. I'm going to get a compost program in my school, we're not going to wait. We've seen this, just in the little bit of time, that the film has been out, that the 11 year olds, the 12 year olds, the 8 year olds, I think many of them are finding their calling in this, because I think they've been so scared about what's ahead. And this for them, gives them hope. And so that's why we are absolutely committed to getting this message in front of as many young people as we can.

Matthew 1:01:22
I think you raise a very good point. This is couples week at Factual America. We had the couple who's did the Boys State on, this is the last week of October, and we're recording this now. And we kind of talked about this as well. I mean, I usually say I think Gen Z is going to save the world. I know we can't wait for Gen Z, because things need to happen now. And Gen Z probably doesn't have their hands on the levers of power. Let's put it that way. But I agree with you, my own daughter wants to, I forget what she calls it, but she basically wants to redo our entire backyard of our house. Because, you know, to make it, to promote biodiversity and all these things, you know. And you know, get the bees and all these sorts of things to come back. I'm not being derogatory. I think it's wonderful. It's a school project of hers. I think it's, they've seen the previous few generations really, F things up, basically. And I think they really know that something needs to be done, and they're not going to sit around and wait for it to happen.

Joshua Tickell 1:02:34
Yeah, I don't think we should underestimate the power, you know, they may not have their hands on the levers of traditional power, but they certainly have their hands on the levers of social power. And I don't think we should underestimate the upcoming generations ability to use Tik Tok and Instagram, as massive global change powerhouses to get these ideas out. In fact, we're counting on them to do it. So you know, let's and Weibo, if you're in China. This is really the the next stage of the work is, you know, in the United States, we need a million new farmers within the next 10 years. So a million farmers will leave the land in 10 years. That's the entire farming population of the United States, that demographic shift is happening globally. And so we have a global unemployment problem, at the same time that we're going to need a tremendous number of young people to go out with new ideas, new passion and new commitment. Let's face it, it's not easy, but it is really gratifying. And that is going to happen. And I believe they're going to use social media as a way to organize and to make this global shift happen.

Matthew 1:03:51
And I think that raises a very good point, something that Rebecca talked about earlier, that would touch me as, you being having seventh generation farmers there in your house. You know, I think, as a society, all of us, my parents grew up on farms, but we've been so separated from where our food comes from. And I think there's an element of this as well, we've kind of just, maybe I'm of a generation that just kind of grew up thinking it all comes from a supermarket, you know. You just go to the grocery store and your food magically appears. And I think this sort of reconnected, there's something even almost physical or visceral, there's something there that you, you know, given humanity needs, it's been artificial to be separated from the land as we have had been the last few generations.

Rebecca Tickell 1:04:43
There is so much joy to get into, to put your hands in that dirt and to smell that dirt, to literally kiss the ground. We actually had a email come in from someone who said I'm a truck driver in Texas and I watched your movie at 2am and I got out of the car and I got down on my knees and I kissed the ground, and I really kissed it, and I smell, he goes, and I got up, and he goes, I realized I needed to kiss it again. He got down to kiss the ground again. And he goes, and I'm a oil truck driver who works for oil companies. So this isn't the person that we thought we were going to reach. I mean, I guess we really wanted to reach everyone. But we weren't really thinking about this truck driver, you know, 3am, kneeling down and kissing the ground. And even us, for seven years in this conversation around regeneration, it wasn't until COVID that, and it's been so hard on everyone, everyone, you know. No one, like you said, it's the great unifier. But with our children, we finally made a little vegetable garden with them. We were able to have them plant their own food. And now we've been eating the food out of our garden that we grew, and they got to experience that process of planting the seed and watching it come to life and then taking care of it. And then you know, there's just something to that. And I mean, if anyone listening takes anything away from today, I really do hope that it's, that you do go outside and kiss the ground. And you do see that there is hope, that we can do this. And you know, let's get dirty together.

Matthew 1:06:06
I couldn't put it any better. I want to thank you, Josh, Rebecca, thank you so much for your time. I know we've overrun a little bit and you've got other responsibilities and children who need your attention. But thank you so much for coming on to Factual America. Really appreciated. I just want to remind you, we've been talking with Josh and Rebecca Trickell, co directors and co producers of Kiss the Ground. It's available on Netflix, or to rent on Vimeo or if you're a student, you might be seeing this film shown in your school in the next few days or weeks. And you can go to their website as well. So thanks again. I want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted studios in Leeds, England. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 1:07:10
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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Kiss the Ground: How We Can Reverse Climate Change

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