Guy Clark: Texas Music Legend
Five years after the legendary Texas singer and songwriter Guy Clark passed away, his life and legacy is celebrated in a new documentary. Without Getting Killed or Caught brings Guy's colourful life and career to the big screen.
The film is the brainchild of Grammy award-winning music producer, award-winning author, and documentary filmmaker Tamara Saviano. She and her partner in life Paul Whitfield are the co-directors and co-producers.
The film looks at Guy Clark’s life as he struggles to write poetic songs, while balancing a complicated marriage with his wife Susanna. It is also a story of Guy's friendship with another legendary Texas singer-songwriter, Townes Van Zandt, on whom Susanna forged a passionate dependence.
Tamara and Paul talk about what led them to make the documentary, how they gained access to Susanna’s diary and audio tapes, and which other films inspired them the most in their filmmaking.
“They are so good at what they do, yet they remain so grounded and humble, and that attracts people to them.” - Tamara Saviano
Time Stamps:
00:14 - The trailer for Without Getting Killed or Caught.
03:44 - The premiere of the film at SXSW, and where else the film is being screened.
05:59 - Who Guy and Susanna Clark are.
07:47 - Guy’s resistance to being classed as an "outlaw".
09:05 - Why Tamara and Paul decided to use Susanna as the narrator of the film.
10:13 - The relationship Townes Van Zandt had with Guy and Susanna.
14:05 - How Tamara gained possession of Susanna’s diaries and tapes.
17:24 - Why Townes didn’t fit into Nashville’s country music scene.
21:19 - The tension Susanna’s success caused to her marriage.
24:44 - The comeback Guy made and why he was arguably more successful than Townes.
27:20 - What "Americana" music is and how it’s different from country music.
28:54 - The challenging side of Guy’s personal life and how he dealt with the struggle.
31:27 - What the secret is to Guy’s "greatness".
33:53 - The best albums to listen to if you want to get to know Guy’s music.
36:01 - How Tamara and Paul decided to approach making a documentary about Guy’s life.
40:08 - How they got Sissy Spacek to narrate the film.
44:06 - The different documentaries that inspired Paul and Tamara.
47:07 - How they managed to raise the funds on Kickstarter.
51:33 - What’s next for Paul and Tamara.
Resources:
Without Getting Killed or Caught (2021)
Without Getting Killed or Caught Facebook Group
Guy Clark Music Facebook Page
Guy Clark Film Facebook Page
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Tamara Saviano:
Connect with Paul Whitfield:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 64 - Guy Clark: Texas Music Legend
Tamara Saviano 00:01 Hi, I'm Tamara Saviano, director of Without Getting Killed or Caught.
Paul Whitfield 00:05 Hi, I'm Paul Whitfield, director of Without Getting Killed or Caught, and husband of Tamara Saviano.
Speaker 1 00:14 I'm proud to present the ASCAP Lifetime Achievement Award to Guy Clark for his outstanding accomplishments as a songwriter, recording artist, and musical mentor in the field of country music.
Rodney Crowell 00:29 Texans really love their heroes, and Guy's a true blue Texas hero.
Speaker 2 00:35 He was a powerful figure with an enormous presence.
Verlon Thompson 00:38 I'm pretty sure they'll say he's one of the greatest American songwriters that ever lived.
Rodney Crowell 00:46 Why didn't Guy Clark become a big star? I'm not sure they yet knew how to market a poet of Guy's caliber.
Speaker 3 00:52 Guy didn't care about pleasing the record label. He was passionate about the songs, and he was hell bent on doing things his way. It bombed.
Speaker 4 01:02 And I was lost. Looking for something.
Susanna Clark 01:07 I'm Susanna Clark. I live in Nashville with my husband Guy, and our best friend, Townes Van Zandt.
Speaker 5 01:13 It was a mythical love story. You had to be there to get it.
Susanna Clark 01:20 Guy and I were married. But Townes and I were soulmates.
Speaker 6 01:25 He knew what was most important to Susanna.
Susanna Clark 01:28 Townes Van Zandt died on January 1, 1997.
Rodney Crowell 01:33 Susanna surrendered something that night. She went to bed and didn't get up.
Susanna Clark 01:37 I love him so much.
Speaker 7 01:39 I quit and started over. All you got to do is do it. Nobody says you can't.
Susanna Clark 01:44 I continued to spiral down as Guy's star kept rising.
Guy Clark 01:49 Here I am - a folk singer.
Vince Gill 01:51 He knew what he wanted to be; that's clarity.
Guy Clark 02:00 You know, I'm just cursed with artistic integrity. Lord, what a beautiful woman.
Rodney Crowell 02:07 His songs were literature.
Speaker 8 02:09 I guess he couldn't go on.
Speaker 9 02:14 This might be it.
Guy Clark 02:16 Not everyone's a country singer. I'm still not a country singer. I just write songs and play, and I'm Guy Clark.
Matthew 02:29 That is a trailer from the documentary Without Getting Killed or Caught. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Today, we're celebrating the life of legendary singer and songwriter Guy Clark, and a few other notables, I might add. And who better to do that than the filmmakers behind Without Getting Killed or Caught, which brings Guy's colorful life, and the then burgeoning Americana music scene, to life: Tamara Saviano and Paul Whitfield. Tamara was Guy's longtime publicist, is a Grammy Award winning music producer, award winning author, and now a documentary filmmaker. Paul Whitfield is Tamara's partner in life, and in crime, serving as co-director and producer, DP, and writer on the film. And in his spare time, he follows his boss, The Boss: Bruce Springsteen, around with a camera. So, Tamara and Paul, welcome to Factual America.
Tamara Saviano 03:28 Hi, Matthew. Great to be here.
Matthew 03:30 Yeah, it's great to have you on. So, again, the film we've listened, or some of us have seen, the trailer for those on YouTube, Without Getting Killed or Caught. So, was South by Southwest, the premiere?
Tamara Saviano 03:44 Yes, South by Southwest 2021 was the premiere. It was supposed to be 2020. But we all know how that went. But we were happy to be invited back in 2021. And, yeah, it was great.
Matthew 03:57 Yeah, I was supposed to be there in 2021. So, I might have run into you if I had been but congratulations on that. And do we have a wider release yet?
Tamara Saviano 04:05 We don't. We're happy that we you know, had our debut at South by, and we actually won a juried toward there, which was really exciting. And we are in the process of doing six virtual screenings for the Kickstarter backers, and the people that have been with the film for a long time. And then we are, you know, looking for the right distribution situation. We've had offers, but none of them that we're ready to settle on. No, it's not wide yet. And I'm not sure when it will be.
Matthew 04:41 Okay. Well, congratulations on that. No surprise that you got a Jury Award. And also, this is your directorial debut both of you, isn't it?
Tamara Saviano 04:52 Yes.
Paul Whitfield 04:53 Yeah.
Matthew 04:53 Yes. So, well done. And a personal note: as a Texan born and bred but who's been here in the UK for way too long, thanks so much for making this film. I think it was - I thoroughly enjoyed it. And, so I don't even know where to begin with this film I have to say...
Paul Whitfield 05:10 Neither did we!
Matthew 05:12 Yeah, exactly! But I think, you know, I thought someone else put it well; they said, in reference to the film, it explains and it teases, and it celebrates and mourns in a way that should enlighten those who aren't fans, and satisfy those who are. That's Steve Pond at The Wrap. And with that high praise and those lofty goals in mind, I think maybe that's what we'll try to go with, and Tamara why don't we start with you just introducing our audience because I have a feeling a lot of them may not know that much about Guy Clark and Susanna Clark, so maybe introduce us to our two main protagonists. There's others in the story, but let's start with those two.
Tamara Saviano 05:59 Well, Guy and Susanna Clark, came to Nashville in 1971, the fall of 1971, and they came here because Guy had gotten a publishing deal. They had been in LA, but they chose Nashville largely because of the success that Kris Kristofferson had had here, and their friend Mickey Newbury was here. So, I look at Guy and Susanna as kind of that next wave of literary songwriters that came after Kristofferson. And once they settled here, you know, everybody started hanging out with them. It was at, you know, Jim McGuire, their best friend and photographer, his studio, and a guy in Susanna's house that all these songwriters came together, and Susanna called it a hippie poet salon. But it was all about playing songs for each other, and they wanted to write great songs. That was their only goal was to write great songs. And it was a unique time because, you know, country music is really the thing in Nashville. This is largely a country music town, even though there's a lot of genres of music going on, the business surrounds country music, and Guy never fit into that. And so, he had to blaze his own trail. And he really is one of the, you know, founding fathers of what we now call Americana in Nashville.
Matthew 07:28 I mean, it's interesting because that's something that caught my attention. I used to think of, however you want to describe it, but, you know, like, if you want to say one genres outlaw country, it's usually about people fleeing Nashville. But he came to Nashville and blazed a trail, didn't he?
Tamara Saviano 07:46 Yes. And, you know, some people tried to tag Guy with the outlaw tag, and he wouldn't have it, you know, he said, I'm not an outlaw. I'm just Guy Clark. I just, you know, write songs and sing them. And he, you know, he was friends with the outlaws, you know, with Waylon and Willie and, you know, hung out with Waylon a lot, and Waylon's on a lot of Guy's early records but Guy never considered himself as part of that movement. I don't think he considered himself part of any movement. He was a folk singer. And that's how he thought of himself. And he just wanted to write his songs and play them for the people. And I think he was, frankly surprised by his influence on other songwriters: Happy that he had that influence but surprised by it.
Matthew 08:35 And then we've also got, obviously we have Susanna as well, who's an artist in her own right. Songwriter. I didn't know about the album covers that was quite - that's interesting. Stardust for Willie Nelson. I know one of Emmylou Harris's, you know, albums. So, they're almost this power couple of this burgeoning scene, aren't they?
Tamara Saviano 09:03 They were, and what's interesting to me is, you know, Susanna primarily was a painter, but then she'd write these songs and they would be the ones that would become the hit songs, you know; she was the one making money out of songwriting. And I think you know, the reason that we chose to have the film in Susanna's voice was because Guy and Townes, who's also part of our film, were such towering figures and I think Susanna's voice, you know, got lost in the greater world when people talk about Guy and Townes.
Matthew 09:36 Yeah, I think that's a really good point, because I was gonna say, we can't leave Townes Van Zandt out of this discussion, can we? And for those who don't know, I was trying to describe him the other day to someone here, and he's sort of the best known of the unknown singer-songwriters everyone is supposed to know about, is the way I put it. And I have to say I took Guy's advice: if you come up have something in your head write it down, you know, because five minutes later it's lost. So, I had to rethink that one but, but yeah, I mean, it's let's say something about Townes because he obviously plays big in this story.
Tamara Saviano 10:11 He does. Guy and Townes were best friends, and Susanna and Townes were soulmates. And the three of them were just the best of friends, and they all influenced each other's art, and just spent so much time together, you know, and Townes was Guy's favorite songwriter, and Guy looked to Townes as his yardstick. If Townes thought a song that Guy wrote was good, then that was good enough for Guy. And yeah, I think Townes dying early really kind of fit into this myth of Townes Van Zandt. You know, we didn't delve into Townes's career very much in the film; he's in the film, based on his relationship with Guy and Susanna. But I think that, you know, he was a troubled soul, he probably had a lot of mental illness, and he self-medicated, and I think that and his early untimely death, you know, sort of made him this folk hero. But in my opinion, Guy's the better songwriter, you know, I mean, that's just my opinion, of course, but I think Guy really worked at it. And has such a large body of work. And it seems like people fall in either the Townes camp or the Guy camp, and I'm squarely in the Guy camp!
Matthew 11:38 Well, that's forewarned! But also, I mean, if when I was looking into this, and trying to remember back to my own, misspent youth, I think, you know, when you look at it, Townes's output was really concentrated in this very short, relatively short, period of time, and something I was going to, I think we'll talk about in a few minutes is just, like you say, this breadth of work, and sort of, even from a time standpoint that we had with Guy's output, but you've talked about this relationship, this very interesting triangle that existed, isn't it, that's a big part of this story as well. So, you've got the lovers and the married couple, who are Guy and Susanna. You've got the soulmates who are Townes and Susanna. And then you've got the best friends who are Guy and Townes. That's a very interesting, interesting relationship.
Tamara Saviano 12:39 It is an interesting relationship. And when I was writing my book about Guy, you know, the book, of course, is much longer than the film and that relationship was so compelling to me, which is one of the reasons we focused on it in the film, and then we found, well, Guy gave me these diaries of Susanna's, and the audio diaries, and Paul and I spent an entire summer after supper, listening to those tapes, as Paul digitized them. And, you know, we were just like, man, we have struck gold with these tapes. And that's why we decided to, you know, write the narrative the way it is really using the tapes, and TR - Susanne's tape recorder - as a character in the film.
Matthew 13:28 And then, as you well document, I mean, that during this period, and these are like, I mean, these tapes are amazing. They're basically having a few, maybe getting a little drunk now and then, and just, I don't know, talking about everything and singing and songwriting and all kinds of stuff. It's, I mean, because Guy gave you these tapes and her diaries. I mean, this is very personal stuff to open up to you. I mean, that must have been - was it difficult for him? How did you approach that?
Tamara Saviano 14:06 Well, you know, Guy gave me Susanna's diaries and those tapes, two days after Susanna died. And I was over at his house, because during that period of time, I was over at his house several times a week. And as I was leaving, he said, Tamara, there's two boxes at the door for you. And I kind of peeked in the boxes and I said, Well, what is this and he said, it's Susanna's diaries and tapes that she used to record, and I looked at him, and I asked him if he had read anything or listened to anything. And he said, No, but whatever's in there is Susanna's truth, and you're welcome to it. And you know, we were working on the book then and Guy was very ill. And I think, you know, at that point in his life, he knew that the only way his story was going to be left behind is if he opened himself up to me, and he did, you know, and I know that he really trusted me. You know, I could tell by the way he treated me, you know, he told me that, he told everybody else that. So, at some points it did feel kind of like a heavy responsibility, but at the same time, I knew that having those tapes of Susanna's - I don't know how to say it, but I felt like Susanna was pulling the strings somewhere, like she was telling Guy, make sure Tamara has that stuff. And now I feel like she's been kind of pushing this along, all along.
Matthew 15:38 I gather Susanna really was pulling the strings in many ways throughout their life, wasn't she?
Tamara Saviano 15:46 I think so. What do you think, Paul?
Paul Whitfield 15:50 Yeah, well, going back to the tapes, most of those tapes are just drunken nonsense. And so we would sit and listen to them. Every new tape we put in, we'd think, okay, this is going to have something great. And occasionally, yeah, we did, we did stumble upon some really great bits, but there was a lot of just drunken nonsense. And Guy asking Townes to play this song, play this song, play this song, hey, Townes, play this song. And so it's a lot of Townes playing and singing and saying, hey, why doesn't somebody else play and sing for a little bit? I've been playing this whole time. So, there's a lot of that. And then, occasionally, there'd be a real intimate moment. So, there's a lot of going through it all.
Matthew 16:45 And at this time, certainly when they were first come to Nashville, Nashville in the '70s and into the early '80s, Guy's getting signed with major record labels, but in some ways, I mean, it's interesting because these albums are poorly received, or they're not even - he doesn't even let them get released. Was he just being uncompromising? Was he a purist? Or just plain stubborn, you know, because you could say he was struggling, but in other ways, I mean, his output, the songs he recorded, and what the others recorded: it's amazing.
Tamara Saviano 17:21 Yeah, I think it's a little of all of the above. I mean, definitely was stubborn. And he wanted to do things his way. And as someone who likes to do things her way, I can absolutely relate to that. But, you know, he also just wasn't cut out for the Nashville country music business and I love country music, and I love Nashville. And so, I'm not making any judgment call on that, but it's just a very different thing, you know? And Guy, really, you know, first of all, he came from Texas, and Texans - well, you're a Texan, I don't have to tell you - you know, Texans like to follow their own path. And Guy tried to do it the Nashville way, and I think he really had hoped that he would have success the Nashville way. But it just didn't suit him, you know, his songs are not what I would call country radio friendly. His songs are like short stories, you know, and he is a poet with a guitar. You know, and I think, you know, like, I talked to Joe Galante, who ran Sony Music here for many years, I talked to Joe for my book, and, you know, Guy was signed to their label, and Joe said that at the time, they didn't know - they had no idea what to do with Guy, they were all fans of Guy, they all loved what Guy was doing. But as a record label, they did not know what to do with him. Because, you know, his songs really didn't belong on country radio. And that is not a slam against country radio. That is just a - it would be like, you know, putting hip-hop on country radio just, well, they do that now, I guess, but...
Matthew 19:06 They actually do, that's right.
Tamara Saviano 19:07 Just at the time, it just wouldn't, just didn't work. So, I think it just took Guy a while, well he did five albums for mainstream country labels, and after that is when he decided that he was going to quit and start over. And when he did that, you know, he took a five year break, and then he recorded Old Friends, and he was like, this is what I want to do.
Matthew 19:30 Yeah. I think, yes, I can speak to the stubbornness. Is it in your film, or did I see it elsewhere: he's receiving an award, and he's, like, he's been in Nashville for I don't know how many years, and he thinks he's just about broke even now. I think, I kind of feel the same way about the UK, but, you know, yes, he defies categorization, and people like, especially back - I think that someone else, about a different artist recently, I was saying that, especially back then, sort of '70s, '80s, even more so, there wasn't this crossover that you can get now, so readily. And so, you were either country or you're either whatever - folk or you're, you know, you're pop or you're - then later rap and hip-hop and hard rock and things like that, so, just the crossover just didn't really happen. And I think even growing up, we kind of categorized our artists that way, you know.
Tamara Saviano 20:31 Yeah. You went into a record store, and you were looking for a record, you went over to the bin that held country music, or folk music, or pop music, or, you know, rock and roll. And that's how everything was categorized on radio and in the record stores, you know, and certainly now with the way the business has changed, there's a lot more crossover, but not back then.
Matthew 20:54 And meanwhile, Susanna, during this period, before he, you know, during this five album period with the big labels, Susanna is doing fairly well, isn't she, you know, she's penning number one hits, and the album covers we already mentioned. I mean, that caused a bit of a tension in their relationship, didn't it.
Tamara Saviano 21:19 Yeah, you know, Susanna thought that Guy was resentful of her success. And Guy thought Susanna was too competitive. So, you know, I think there was some tension in their marriage. And, you know, when Susanna wrote, Come From The Heart, and Kathy Mattea took that in 1989, you know, Susanna took her royalty money and went and got her own apartment, so she wouldn't have to live with Guy any more, which I still find really funny. You know, and as Guy says in the film, she just had enough of his bullshit. And, you know, there was also a lot of substance abuse and craziness going on, you know, like Paul talked about, you know, listening to those tapes, you know, it was kind of just crazy.
Matthew 22:05 A lot of liquid moments I sensed in those years, and in their lives, especially with the crowd that they were hanging out with, I think. And then if we just bring him back into the story, weave him back in a little bit, we've got Townes who's then, as I think you already - you've said, spiraling, a spiral of addiction and, you know, he's in some people's estimations, penning masterpieces, and others are then kind of having this, I don't know lease on life in some ways in the '80s and '90s. And, I mean, did Guy feel overshadowed by Townes? As far as you know?
Tamara Saviano 22:50 No, he did not. I mean, I think there are people that tried to make that narrative, but Guy never felt overshadowed by Townes. You know, he loved Townes, and he loved Townes as a songwriter. But Guy would tell you he and Townes were very different kinds of songwriters; he would not put himself in the same category with Townes and Guy took it more seriously than Townes. And, you know, Guy, the reason Guy lived in Nashville instead of Texas is because he had a publishing deal here, and he took that very seriously, he felt like he needed to be in the same town with his publisher. So he could go over there, he could have meetings, wasn't on the road. And so Guy, from a business perspective, always took his writing contract really seriously. And what does Guy say in the movie all about Townes never really having a contract, or...?
Paul Whitfield 23:42 Well, he just said he didn't really take it serious. He had to - he was always screwing it up somehow. Not coming, not making his - turning in the songs. You know, just not taking it seriously. And he was somebody you had to tolerate; you just had to learn to tolerate being a good friend because he was hard to get along with.
Matthew 24:08 I guess it's anyone, you know, if any of us have had any experience with people with substance abuse issues, I think that's a real difficult one, isn't it as a friend and where do you, where do you intervene? Where you don't? What do you put up with? I know you show - some of that is sort of when they were doing a lot of their live stuff together. I know there's some great live albums that they did, but, you know, to be honest, often people say well, you know, the Guy songs sound a lot better than Townes's songs sound on some of those albums because of what was going on so...
Tamara Saviano 24:44 And not that Guy didn't, you know...
Matthew 24:47 Partake.
Tamara Saviano 24:48 He did. A lot. But he took his work seriously. And so he wouldn't show up, you know, drunk or high at a gig; he'd wait until after the gig, and then get drunk and high.
Matthew 25:03 But as you've said, I mean, you've already mentioned what, it's hard to say, turns it around, but I mean, he could have stopped there. He's nearly 50. He's got a songwriting legacy, some very famous people have recorded his songs. But he then puts out this Old Friends, and I think, maybe we could talk a little bit more about that. And this sort of second life, second career. One thing you highlighted was the rise of Americana, and I must say, I hadn't actually thought of it that way before. I just always thought this kinda was there, you know, but it all kind of, in fact, he's kind of the big - he kind of leads the way.
Tamara Saviano 25:45 Yeah, so, I mean, and it was all very fortuitous, I think, you know, at the same time, you know, Guy made Old Friends, which came out in '89, and it was nominated for a Grammy and, you know, he had the support of Sugar Hill and Barry Poss, the founder of Sugar Hill, who's in our film. And then, the trade magazine, Gavin's, wanted to start an Americana chart; they actually had a, you know, group of people that got together and named this genre 'Americana', and started, you know, a new radio chart, which was really bold of them to do that. And then around that chart, you know, radio started having specialty shows, some radio stations went, you know, full time Americana, there were festivals. Now there were clubs, there was an organization that formed so in that, you know, in the 1990s, it became this, you know, just this new path for people that did not fit into the country music umbrella, you know, and Guy was a leader of that. And it just so happened that it was all happening at the same time.
Matthew 27:05 And is Americana just really folk by another name, or how would you - I mean, how do you describe Americana? And what makes it different from - Because a lot of times Americana artists win Grammys for folk albums, don't they?
Tamara Saviano 27:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah, Americana has been around more than 20 years, and I still can't tell you what it is. But it is, you know, there's country music, there is folk music, there is some blues music, you know, and I think, you know, the way that I look at it is that Americana artists typically write their own songs, play their own instruments, sing their own songs, where in the country music business, songwriters are kind of separate. And then there's the, you know, singers who perform the songs that someone else writes, and some of the singers don't even play an instrument. So, I think, you know, in Americana, if you're going to be successful, you're a fully formed artist, and you sing, and you write, and you play. And it's, you know, it's roots based music. But yeah, defining Americana is still impossible. It's a big tent.
Matthew 28:12 I mean, one thing, just as a side note, I did not know about the Houston folk scene before seeing this film. But, and then so one, you know, I think we're going to go for a break real quick here. But one last point on there is that so Guy rises to this public prominence. He's getting Grammy nominated albums, eventually wins a Grammy much later on. But then, you know, so there's this public prominence versus what's happening in his personal life, which was quite, quite challenging to say the least, wasn't it?
Tamara Saviano 28:50 Yes, it was. I mean, at that time, Guy and Susanna were living apart until 1995. Townes, of course, was spiraling and Guy felt, you know, responsible for Townes. You know, yeah, there was a lot going on. And I think some of the way that Guy dealt with it was he just went out on the road and played, you know, and just worked.
Matthew 29:16 So, Susanna was basically bedridden for 15 years. I mean, I guess he had people looking after her when he would go out on the road, obviously, I mean, there's that...
Tamara Saviano 29:24 Yeah, after Townes died - Townes died in January 1, 1997 - and, after that, Guy, you know, Susanna always had a caretaker at home with her. And yeah, she, you know, she left the house on a rare occasion, you know, she, you know, would show up somewhere, but for the most part, she didn't. She became agoraphobic, and she just really didn't leave the house for 15 years.
Matthew 29:51 And it's, you know, I must say, it's kind of one of these hard ones that's hard to jive with the, you know, these pictures of them in their youth, and she's this very attractive, vivacious, outgoing woman, and then to hear that, you know, that's the last 15 - I think it's Rodney Crowell who says she chose to die slowly, or something to that effect.
Tamara Saviano 30:11 Susanna had a lot of grief in her life. You know, first her sister's suicide, and Townes, and yeah.
Matthew 30:17 Okay, well, we are gonna take a break for our listeners and we'll be right back with Tamara Saviano and Paul Whitfield, directors and producers of Without Getting Killed or Caught.
Factual America midroll 30:30 You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures, to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew 30:49 Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with the directors and producers, Paul Whitfield and Tamara Saviano. Without Getting Killed or Caught is the film; premiered at South by Southwest. I think there's some screenings are going to be had, and be on the lookout for when this is released. I hope it's pretty soon. I imagine it will be. What was the secret to Guy's greatness, or should I ask this a different way: what makes the great ones great? I mean, Tamara, you've worked with Kris Kristofferson. Paul, you've worked with Bruce Springsteen. I mean, what is it that the great ones have, do you think?
Paul Whitfield 31:27 I don't know. I guess if people knew they could bottle it. I'm not sure. It's, they're interesting.
Tamara Saviano 31:35 Yeah. I think they cut their paths, too, you know, like, certainly the people you've mentioned, Bruce, and Kris, and Guy, they all have, you know, chosen the exact careers they wanted to have. And they do, you know, they follow their heart as far as what kind of career they're going to have. But I also think, you know, and I don't know Bruce, but I've been trapped in a hallway with him a couple of times! But I know Kris, and Guy, and I think what I can say confidently about all three of them is they do have that undefinable 'it' factor, you know, that they have a real presence in the room. And I remember that about Johnny Cash, too; like when Johnny Cash walked into a room, he just had this presence about him that was bigger than anything else in the room. And Guy certainly had that so does Kris. And I think Bruce has that as well. And I don't think it's - it has nothing to do with who they are, as far as they're - you know, none of those guys are egomaniacs or anything like that, you know, in fact, you know, Kris and Guy, you know, are quite humble, and, you know, grounded. But I just think it's something about them, and maybe it's that; maybe it's that they are so good at what they do yet they remain so grounded and humble and regular people that that attracts people to them.
Matthew 33:06 No, it's interesting, because like you say - I mean, I didn't know Guy Clark that well, but I mean, in terms of my own knowledge of music, but it is interesting, and they also have the longevity, don't they, that seems to go along with this, as well. I mean, Tamara before we maybe talk a little bit more about how you got this film made, if people want to get to know Guy's music, what do you think the best way is - besides watching your film, obviously, or listening to your Grammy Award winning tribute album - I mean, if people want to try to access your really good to know Guy Clark stuff, what would you suggest?
Tamara Saviano 33:53 I would suggest they start with Old Number One and Dublin Blues. Those two albums, and go from there. I think if anybody takes the time to listen to those two albums, and they like what they hear, then they can go down the Guy Clark rabbit hole. But, I mean, not to say those are the best albums- they might be, I mean, I can't choose a favorite. But those two albums will really give them a taste of who Guy is. And Old Number One is his first album. Dublin Blues was 1995. So, it's two different points in his career. Both fabulous records.
Matthew 34:28 Well, and I would say even if you - having done it myself - you can just search for him on Spotify or one of these places and just all kinds of - because it's interesting because some people said oh, you know, his earlier stuff is more - I mean, Rodney Crowell, I think, talks about it, it's a bit more, more produced, and he had a different sound, but I found interesting just the same songs, how he sang them and played them differently at different points in his career. Some of his iconic stuff like Dublin Blues, and some of the ones off that Old Number One record. Well, thank you so much for that sort of whirlwind tour of Guy Clark's life. Getting this film made must have been a real labor of love, I get the feeling, because it's a long journey to getting here, hasn't it been.
Paul Whitfield 35:22 There was some speed bumps along the way. A lot happened between when we started and when we finally finished it. So, yeah, it was a, you know, we took a whole summer off after Guy passed away just to sort of figure things out. And...
Tamara Saviano 35:41 Yeah, we took the rest of that year off, really.
Matthew 35:45 So, you did the biography, right? So, that came out in 2016...?
Tamara Saviano 35:50 2016, a few months after Guy died.
Matthew 35:53 Okay. And had you already had a documentary in the works? Or did that come after he died?
Tamara Saviano 36:01 Well, we knew we were going to do a documentary before he died, but we didn't know what it was going to be. So, really, Paul, just, you know, got all the gear together, and we would go over to Guy's house and interview him. And we were just interviewing him about whatever we could think to interview him about, not knowing what our story was going to be.
Matthew 36:20 Right.
Tamara Saviano 36:21 So, really, my co-writer, Bart Knaggs, he and I wrote the script in the winter of 2017. After that, is really when the story started coming together. So, from, you know, spring 2017, and we finished it, we finished our audio mixing in January of 2020. So, those three years were really primarily the years.
Matthew 36:45 So, that's interesting. So, you'd written the biography, you'd won Guy's trust. And then that was extremely well received that biography. And I know you have another sort of best selling book that you did previously. And then - but you knew, but you just kind of just dove in, you knew that that's the way to approach it: just let's get him on camera, and let's just start asking him questions, and then we'll take it, see how it rolls from there.
Paul Whitfield 37:21 Well, we had discussed what type of documentaries we liked.
Matthew 37:26 Yeah.
Paul Whitfield 37:26 And what we wanted the style of the film to be. And we knew we wanted to, we had to get him on camera while, you know, he - because his health wasn't the best.
Matthew 37:37 Yeah.
Paul Whitfield 37:37 And so, we just would go to his house and get him on camera. But after probably the first day of interviewing him on camera, I realized that we weren't going to be able to make the movie that we had thought we were going to, because there was just, you know, his health wasn't that good, and there was a lot of cigarette smoking and coffee, slurping and cherry eating and everything that was going on in his life. He didn't even care that we were there with the camera. So, we just sort of said, okay, well, let's rethink this, and see how we're going to approach it. We went around and around with the idea of whether we wanted to have a narrator or not, because ultimately, we thought we didn't want to have a narrator. Who would it be? Would it be somebody, or would it just be a voice? And then we decided, well, we have to have a narrator to really move the story forward the way - to tell the story we wanted to tell we needed a narrator so - but we just kept going back and forth about that. It never felt right, until we got the idea of making Susanna the narrator, and then it all just clicked. And it seemed like an obvious choice- why we hadn't thought of that sooner but - because we had been trying to find ways to make Susanna more of a figure in the movie we hadn't - she wasn't going to be that prominent in our original concept but as we were trying to find a way to work her in more, then when it was like, oh, make her the narrator, that's when it all came together for us.
Matthew 39:31 Well, I was gonna ask about that because, I mean, the thing that struck me and I've had the pleasure of watching a decent number of music docs in the last year or so, and just docs in general; you guys, I think, used all the tools in the doc filmmaker's toolbox for this one. We've got reconstructions, not cheesy; archival footage; you got diaries; still imagery; animation, and then you've talked about the narration and telling it from Susanna's voice, and that obviously leads to the question of how did you get Sissy Spacek to do this? That's brilliant.
Tamara Saviano 40:09 Yeah, well again, I talked about how Susanna Clark was pulling the strings, and this was definitely one of those. We actually were going to use Susanna's niece, Sherri Talley, as our narrator. Sherri has a beautiful voice, and she has a broadcast background. We took her in the studio and she did a great job. And so, that was our plan.
Paul Whitfield 40:33 Because we had her voice, before we knew Susanna was going to be the narrator, we had Sherri voice some excerpts from the written journals and diaries that we were going to incorporate into the film. So, we had her voice those sections and then when we thought okay, well, we'll make Susanna the narrator, we thought we would just continue with Sherri in that role.
Tamara Saviano 41:01 Yeah. And then just out of nowhere, Paul and I were having breakfast one morning and all of a sudden I just yelled out 'Sissy Spacek is Susanna'. And Paul was like, what are you talking about? And I said, 'Sissy Spacek needs to be Susanna! I just know this that she has to be Sissy Spacek', and, of course, Paul just thought I was crazy and didn't know why I had this sudden, you know, urge to go after Sissy Spacek. And so, I read Sissy's autobiography, you know, pretty much immediately after that. And in that book, I learned that Sissy grew up 100 miles away from Susanna in East Texas. And once, when Sissy won an Oscar for Coal Miner's Daughter, after that she came to Nashville to record an album. And Rodney Crowell produced that album, which I didn't know, you know, so then I called Rodney and Rodney said, Tamara, not only did I produce that album on Sissy, she recorded a Susanna Clarke song on that album. And I was like, you got to be kidding me, you know. So, I got in touch with Sissy's manager, and at the same time, Rodney texted her to tell her that I was doing that. And, you know, Sissy, through her manager, you know, said, hey, if I like your rough cut, I'd be glad to do it. So, we worked on our cut, and we brought another actor in to, you know, voice it so we could kind of show Sissy what we were looking for. And yeah, she said, yes. So, it was great. It worked out. And then when Paul, when we got out of the studio, and Paul came back to lay Sissy's voice into our film, it was just so perfect.
Matthew 42:48 Wow, that's an amazing story. Because I'd also seen that she'd started off as a singer too, before she even went into acting. She was kind of in the folk scene, I think.
Tamara Saviano 43:00 She was, and the story gets even weirder from there. So, the day that we were in the studio with Sissy, she told us this story about, you know, how she started out as a folk singer, and when she was growing up in Quitman, Texas, her best friend had a cousin that was a folk singer in Houston. And that cousin came through, came through town, and taught Sissy this certain guitar picking technique. And we later learned that that girl was Susan Spaw, who was Guy's first wife.
Matthew 43:38 That is, as they say, it's a small world, isn't it? That's absolutely amazing. I mean, you were saying one thing else, you said you were like, you thought about your, you know, the documentaries you liked, and, you know, when you're thinking about how to tell this story, were there any particular documentaries that kind of influenced you or inspired you when trying to put this all together?
Tamara Saviano 44:03 You really liked that Oasis.
Paul Whitfield 44:05 I liked the the way Oasis, the Supersonic.
Matthew 44:08 Yeah.
Paul Whitfield 44:09 I like that one. And the Bang! The Burt Berns Story, I like that one. And Mr. Dynamite. The...
Matthew 44:22 Oh yeah.
Paul Whitfield 44:23 ... James Brown.
Matthew 44:24 Yeah.
Paul Whitfield 44:25 Those three were probably ones that we looked at, as, you know, for production value, or techniques, or storytelling, and we bounced the idea off other people to see which ones they like, but we found that there was a difference between men and women, who liked what, you know, the men seem to like one style of documentary and the women would hate that movie. So...
Tamara Saviano 44:56 Yeah, because I like the James Brown documentary and I thought the Burt Berns was interesting, you know, but I wouldn't say that I'm - and the Oasis one is the least of my favorites. So, I was just like, okay, well, we're definitely not on the same page. And I think it's because, and I can't even think of the ones that I really liked. But it was really important to me to tell the story of the relationship, that it wasn't about the music that the relationship was in there. And so, I do think that that's a, you know, more of a woman point of view. And I really pushed for that, you know, my co-writer is a man, and my co-producer, and co-director's a man, and my husband, and you know, and I found myself often pulling both of them back into the relationship part.
Paul Whitfield 45:46 Yeah, I kept lobbying for more facts, more hard facts.
Matthew 45:51 No, no stereotypes. No stereotypes here. But yes, I know. This is something I've heard previously, too. I mean...
Paul Whitfield 45:58 Tamara wanted more emotions, and relationship, and so we...
Tamara Saviano 46:01 Yeah. The emotion was really important to me, and Paul asked me once, he said, well, how do you want the audience to react, you know, when they're leaving the theater? What do you want them to think? And I said, I want them all to be crying. And he just kind of rolled his eyes at me, but I was like, that's what I want, you know?
Matthew 46:18 That's funny. We had actually someone who's, you would have been our first Grammy Award winner on this show, except you got beaten to that by a couple of weeks by someone else: Emmett Malloy, who's done a Biggie Smalls doc, but he was saying something interesting; he was saying that Netflix basically kind of has this rubric that they don't want people watching a doc to then turn and check out Wikipedia immediately afterwards. And that's almost to me, that strikes me that's of the Male Fact School, fact checking school of filmmaking. But since you didn't have Netflix on board, how did you manage to raise 182k on Kickstarter? That's impressive.
Tamara Saviano 47:08 Guy's fans are devoted, man; they are devoted, and, you know, we knew that the music licensing was going to be really expensive. I've worked in the music business for 30 years. So, I was like, we have to raise some money for music licensing or we can't even do this. And so, I thought the music licensing might be, you know, 100 grand or upwards, and it certainly is that; I think it ended up being about 180 grand for the music licensing. So, I thought, well, if we can raise $75,000 on Kickstarter, that will kind of make me feel like we have some ground to stand on. And we blew past that $75,000 in three days, and ended up with 180, you know, and then after Kickstarter takes their piece, I think it was 160 that we ended up with, but it, you know, it ended up almost covering all of our music licensing. And it enabled us to start the production, really. So, yeah, if we hadn't been successful on Kickstarter, we never would have done this film.
Matthew 48:16 And you can still check out the Kickstarter page- it's still live. It's, I think it's a very - I was talking to some people about it earlier. I mean, it's a very, very personal and compelling story. I think that also probably helped, you know, that helps resonate with people who are keen, or, you know, eager to contribute to something like this.
Tamara Saviano 48:38 And it also led to, you know, I would just encourage other filmmakers to do crowdfunding. It also led to us getting our other investors. One of our Kickstarter backers became an investor, and one of our investors found the Kickstarter after it had expired, and then he brought in someone else, so, you know, it really helped to, you know, raise the awareness level that we were making the film and attract the right people.
Matthew 49:05 That's very interesting. Well, I think we are actually about to come to the end of our time together, unfortunately. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. Do you have any plans? I mean, after all this, do you have any plans for any more docs now that you've gotten your feet wet?
Tamara Saviano 49:25 Not me. Paul might want to, but I'm not doing it.
Paul Whitfield 49:29 Well, I'm gonna try to hire her as a producer on something, and maybe she'll agree to work - handle all the paperwork.
Tamara Saviano 49:39 Oh, no! No, you know, it's interesting. I never had any dreams about being a filmmaker. We did this film because Guy wanted to do this film, and he wanted to work with us. Paul's background is, you know, more film based. I'll probably write more books, but I don't know that I'll do another film. Maybe if someone dumps millions of dollars in our lap, then I might do it.
Matthew 50:05 Well, that always, I guess that helps. But, I mean, I guess what you would - but, you know, I think what others have said, I gather you would agree, I mean, because I would say you're really, I mean, you're really good at it, you should consider doing another one. But it is down to the love of the subject, isn't it? And having a, you know, a passion for the project, I imagine, in order to stick through it year in and year out.
Tamara Saviano 50:33 I mean, I would have quit this project. I tried to quit a few times. And Paul wouldn't let me. Yeah, if it wasn't Guy, I don't think I would have made it, you know, and I think, you know, if, if I ever made another film, you know, it would be because we actually had the resources to hire people, because we made this film, the two of us, and we hired people as we needed them, but we really did all the heavy lifting, you know, I mean, the amount of admin that I've done is just staggering to me. So, you know, it would have to be where we could hire a real stack of people, you know, so we didn't have to do you know, 12 jobs each. And it probably wouldn't be about music just because of the music licensing.
Matthew 51:24 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a very good point. And so, what is next for the two of you?
Tamara Saviano 51:33 Well, we're working on, you know, figuring out what to do with this film. And then, I imagine Springsteen will go out in 2022 so Paul will probably go back on the road.
Paul Whitfield 51:44 Hopefully, yeah. If the music industry's starts back up again.
Tamara Saviano 51:49 Yeah. And I don't know what I'm going to do next. And that's okay. Right now.
Matthew 51:55 I was almost expecting you to say, well, right after this, we're just gonna open up a bottle of wine. But, you know, I think, I mean, just quickly, Paul, do you see, are there signs that things are opening up for 2022? Are they lining things up for tours and things like that?
Paul Whitfield 52:12 Well, there's nothing concrete yet. There's just signs of activity, though. You know, people out there in the internet, in the world talking about rumors of things happening, and that people are inquiring, but nothing actually, on the books yet, that I'm aware of, you know, people talking about it, thinking about it, saying it's gonna happen, but nothing actually booked yet. I think the insurance companies are still trying to figure out how to control everything. So, we just have to wait and see what happens.
Matthew 52:54 How quickly I always forget about the insurance people. But anyway, well, thank you. Thank you so much. If you do ever decide to do another doc, we'd love to have you on if we haven't scared you off.
Tamara Saviano 53:06 Well, thank you; that's nice of you.
Matthew 53:09 Well, thank you. I just want to thank Tamara Saviano and Paul Whitfield for Without Getting Killed or Caught. It premiered at South by Southwest, and be on the lookout for its hopefully, imminent release. So, just want to say thanks again to Tamara Saviano and Paul Whitfield, the directors and producers behind Without Getting Killed or Caught. And if you have any questions regarding how you can become documentary directors and producers like Tamara or Paul, or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com to learn more about careers in the film industry. I want to give a shout out to our engineer Freddie Besbrode, and the rest of the team at This is Distorted Studios, here in Leeds, England. As always a big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such guests like Tamara and Paul onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you, so please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
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