Good Ol Girl: Cowgirls in Modern Ranching
When we think of Texas, we think of wide open spaces, ranches, rugged individualism, the Wild West, and invariably cowboys. But where do women fit into this mix?
In their film Good Ol Girl, Sarah Brennan Kolb and Kyle Kelley put this question into the context of present-day Texas. The film tells the stories of three young modern-day Texan cowgirls, and explores the role of women in cowboy culture.
Women are increasingly taking a larger role in the traditionally male dominated industry of ranching. As we found out, Texas is going to have to change if the legacy of the past is to be handed down to the next generation.
“I’ve always hoped that women would see themselves as heroes, and men would understand that women can be heroes.” - Sarah Brennan Kolb
Time Stamps:
06:30 - A brief synopsis of the documentary Good Ol Girl and when it will be premiered.
11:36 - The role women have historically had in Texas.
15:30 - How women are now treated in Texas.
17:59 - Our first clip, showing the unique conversation between a Texas rancher and her father.
21:46 - Who the protagonist Mandy is and how she embodies the ‘frontier women’ of Texas.
26:06 - Our second clip, where Mandy talks about her dream life and what it looks like.
27:35 - Lemoine's choice: professional aspirations or carrying on her family’s ranching legacy.
30:36 - Our third clip, showing the importance ranchers put on keeping the ranch in the family.
32:30 - Martha’s story and her struggles with the rezoning of her land.
36:15 - How Sarah got in contact with Joyce and the importance she had to the film.
38:39 - What inspired Sarah to make this documentary.
42:15 - How Sarah met Mandy and got into the world of ranchers and cattlewomen.
44:55 - How Kyle got involved with the film.
46:43 - The dangers involved with filming on a ranch.
50:57 - The difficulties involved in portraying a rodeo in an impartial way.
53:36 - What ‘Documentary Western’ really means.
54:34 - How Covid has affected the way the film will be released.
57:23 - What Sarah hopes to achieve with this film.
1:01:33 - Kyle’s experience at the White House filming Donald Trump's interview for HBO.
1:06:04 - How Sarah has seen Texas change over the last few years.
Resources:
Good Ol Girl
The Cowgirls
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Sarah Brennan Kolb:
Connect with Kyle Kelley:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 29 - Good Ol Girl: Cowgirls in Modern Ranching
Sarah Brennan Kolb 0:00
My name is Sarah Brennan Kolb and I'm the director of Good Ol Girl.
Kyle Kelley 0:03
My name is Kyle Kelley and I'm the cinematographer of Good Ol Girl.
Speaker 1 0:15
Texas is the place where so much of the entire West was born. The cowboy is the number one hero, the one who steps in and saves the day. He is our King Arthur. But the cattle kingdom is changing.
Speaker 2 0:36
I was born and bred to be a cowgirl.
Speaker 3 0:47
There's a lot to be said about the older people saying that my generation is coming to table. It's a lot easier to move to a big city and make a lot of money than to come back and do this. It's not about doing what men can do. It's about accomplishing the same task. I can work like a man and when it's time to be a lady, I can be a lady and that's extremely important to me.
Speaker 1 1:23
The old ways won't do anymore. We got to change if we're going to stay a kingdom.
Matthew 1:50
That is the trailer for the upcoming documentary Good Ol Girl. And this is Factual America.
Intro 1:58
Factual America is produced by Alamo Pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.
Matthew 2:34
When we think of Texas, we think of wide open spaces, rugged individualism, the Wild West, and invariably cowboys. But where do women fit into this mix? In their film, Good Ol Girl, Sarah Brennan Kolb, and Kyle Kelley put this question into the context of present day Texas. Women are increasingly taking a larger role in the traditionally male dominated industry of ranching. As we found out, Texas is going to have to change if the legacy of the past is to be handed down to the next generation. We caught up recently with Sarah and Kyle from their homes in Texas and New York. Sarah Brennan Kolb and Kyle Kelley. Welcome to Factual America. Sarah, how are things in Texas?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 3:22
Hot? And rainy. Hot and rainy.
Matthew 3:27
Is it still in the hundreds?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 3:28
Yeah, somehow it's still in the hundreds and also just rained.
Matthew 3:33
How is that possible?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 3:36
It's a beautiful, sticky rainy day down here in Texas.
Matthew 3:42
Well, Sarah, you are director and producer. Kyle, how are things with you in New York?
Speaker 1 3:48
It's beautiful here. So I mean, I think it just rained a little bit, but it's definitely not a 100 degrees like Texas, so I'm happy that we are not in production right now.
Matthew 3:58
I mean, things have kind of moved on, but how are you doing from a COVID standpoint? Sarah?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 4:05
Yeah, well, it's funny because I got tested this morning for COVID for an upcoming shoot and I just got the text message that I'm negative. So hoo!
Matthew 4:15
Excellent.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 4:17
Yeah. Four for four on my, on my COVID test. Yeah, it's been, COVID in Texas has been a pretty crazy reckoning of our sense of exceptionalism down here. Yeah, it's, it's been a lot, but I'm really, I'm really grateful for those of us who believe in science and, yeah, how much time we're able to spend outside down here.
Matthew 4:45
I mean, is that standard, before you do a shoot, you now gonna get tested? Or is that something you do?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 4:52
It's something, it's something that I require production companies to do now. This one, this next coming shoot is going to be with someone pretty immuno compromised. So I've been on a lockdown for the past five days and getting lots of tests.
Matthew 5:15
Oh, wow. We'll talk more later about your sort of upcoming projects. But what about you, Kyle, I mean, how are things in Yonkers?
Speaker 1 5:23
I mean, things are sorting, kind of getting back to normal a little bit, in terms of production. I mean, there's still not normal at all, obviously, like shooting with a mask on for several hours is very annoying. I haven't done nearly as many tests as Sarah. I think the only test I had was before the Axios interview with the President. And other than that, it's been like, just be careful and let us know if you have symptoms. We have to like take our temperature and stuff, but I don't think that actually counts.
So what interview was that?
Kyle Kelley 5:55
So, I work for Axios and HBO. I do a lot of shooting for them as a freelancer. And we shot the one that went viral like three weeks ago...
Sarah Brennan Kolb 6:03
THAT interview. You know the interview.
Matthew 6:08
Oh, that interview ... Wow.
Kyle Kelley 6:10
That was a wild experience. That's my COVID story.
Matthew 6:15
That's definitely gonna get, that's got to make it into this podcast. But before we go there, let's go talk about this film. The reason we have you on in the first place which is Good Ol Girl - a documentary Western following a band of Cowgirls as they hustle for land, cattle and respect across Texas - says the logline. It was supposed to premiere at South by Southwest and we were supposed to meet up with you then. And I don't think I had the chance, you also invited us to come up to your ranch since South by got canceled, but then pretty much everything got canceled. So has it premiered the film, Sarah?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 7:01
It hasn't. No. South by is still technically our premiere. That was really important to us to save the festival. But yeah, there'll be some official public online screenings later, later this year. Yeah. We're working to also figure out how to do a few of those safely in person outside.
Matthew 7:29
Okay. So, I mean, I'm one of the lucky few. I've actually been able to see this great film. Maybe you can give us a quick, we've heard the trailer. So I think people have a bit of an idea. We've got the logline. Maybe you can give us a bit of a synopsis of what is Good Ol Girl about?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 7:48
Yes, definitely. So Good Ol Girl is a documentary Western. It follows three young cow girls in Texas who all come from completely different sides of this very large, diverse state. And they're all in different parts of the industry, in a very different places, but they're all in their own way struggling to carry this tradition forward. And in Texas, there's this crazy statistic that every hour 2000 acres of agricultural and ranch land get turned into subdivisions and development. So it's this way of life, that I think all of us in America and all of us who have cinema, have grown up idealizing and romanticizing. And it's disappearing, a lot of it is disappearing. And I wanted to make a film that follows a young, diverse female generation trying to carry this legacy on.
Matthew 8:52
And I want to explore that a lot further. But Kyle, I mean, so you're from New York, you've made it down to Texas on this project. Was it is what you were expecting?
Speaker 1 9:06
I'm not sure I knew what I was expecting. I'm originally from Vermont so I'm not, like I'm a little more rural than New York, but definitely not from like the sticks of Vermont. We definitely spent some times in the sticks of Texas so. I don't know. I mean, Sarah kind of warned me what is gonna be like, I think. And I spent so much time in there that, I'd like to be like, I'm used to it now. I had my big, like, I earned my stripes when we shot skeet, and that was like, basically like what allowed me to...
Sarah Brennan Kolb 9:38
And he killed a rattlesnake.
Kyle Kelley 9:39
And I killed a rattlesnake. Yes. Yeah.
Matthew 9:44
Well, with your bare hands.
Kyle Kelley 9:46
The one that was in my bedroom, I didn't kill. It was just in there. That we found out later, but yeah.
Matthew 9:54
But you earned everyone's respect on set, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 9:57
Yeah, exaclty. I mean, Sarah and I were the only ones on set, so...
Matthew 10:01
Oh, ok, that's too bad. I was gonna say that's instant street cred.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 10:04
Yeah. Oh, yeah, no, there were videos shared. There was a lot of cred.
Matthew 10:11
Yeah. Well, Sarah, so, as you've already talked about it, I think you've already touched on some things I'd like to get into about how Texas is changing. And I think people who are loyal listeners know that I was born and raised in Texas, so I have some perspective on this. My high school was a brand new high school and it had been built on what had been ranch land, just you know.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 10:35
Which high school?
Matthew 10:37
I was in San Antonio. So I went to Tom C. Clarke. And I'm old enough.
Sure.
So yep. So back then it was relatively new. That's how old I am. But, yes, so we used to drive through, to get there, drove through the Shavano Ranch and the people who own the Shavano Ranch just started, they would sell off 50 acres here, a few hundred acres there and another subdivision would get built. And now if you go through there, there's no evidence of that, any of that ranch land left. I mean, it's very similar to what you captured with one of the characters we're going to talk about is a young woman in Laredo. And I thought that was, it may not be the most beautiful piece of cinematography from pure landscape standpoint, but I thought it very accurately captured, what these areas are like, or at least have become. But you're also exploring the role of women in a very what is traditionally been a male oriented industry, certainly in the state. But maybe, maybe this is a bit of a curveball, but I mean, what is the role of women in Texas history? Or what is the sort of the myth? You know, we have this myth of the frontiers woman and I think you touched on it a bit in the film.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 11:55
Oh, I'm so glad you say the frontiers woman. Yeah. I think my biggest point that I've always wanted to get across is that the role of women in Texas and the West has always been so significantly bigger and important than we've ever given the space and the credit to explore. Which is one of the reasons why I knew I really wanted to make this movie. And Joyce Gibson Roach professor at TCU, who opens the film was so instrumental in showing me and teaching me that, through her writings and through conversations, that women have, women have been in the West and in Texas from the very beginning. We've been responsible for, you know, the largest and most successful ranch in the history of North America. The King Ranch. Henrietta King is the reason why the Ranch is what it is today. We, yeah, we did everything that men did. Those women just were never written about. And that was, I think that was one of the most fascinating and frustrating and terrifying, but inspiring things when we first started making this movie. It is that every, every person I talked to when I was kind of exploring different characters in the film, everyone knows a cow girl or a cattle woman. Everyone, everyone has a story of a woman who no one else has heard of, who's living her own life and part of this lifestyle. We've just never given or held the space, I think, in our national language and folklore to celebrate those women. You talk about the frontiers woman. Joyce Gibson Roach, who's in the film, she has this idea that we've had different archetypes of women and that last female archetype that we have in America is the frontiers woman. And we've never even bothered to give her a face or a name. She's been this kind of faceless figure that we're grateful for cause she suffered through a lot, you know, building building what is now Texas and the West. But I wanted to fill those colors and I wanted to give a face to those countless women who history never spent much time on.
Matthew 14:36
I think you're right. It is faceless. I think what I picked up growing up there was that there was this frontiers woman, and when I say myth, I don't mean it wasn't true, I just mean, you know, the the stories, the archetype, but you never had a name put to it. I mean, Texas has probably had more women governors than most states. It's had one of the first, if not the first, Wyoming and Texas battle out about who was first. So there's this. We've, I grew up knowing that there were strong women in Texas history. But, all that said, and what is, as someone who's grown up all over and lived all over the state, what's sort of the reality in your experience in terms of how women are treated?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 15:32
These days? That's an interesting nuance. So I'll preface it by saying this. Because I think my experience is different than a lot of people. I was just raised by women. Like my mom and her close group of friends. You know, my dad was a very important part of my life growing up too, but the day in and day out people who I saw making the decisions and making the money and putting food on the table, and you know, guiding my life, those were all, those are all women. I didn't have any male figures in my life making the decisions. And I also didn't have like, I didn't have brothers to kind of fall behind or, you know, I was it. I think I kind of skirted a lot of that, a lot of what I see my friends deal with and go through. But, yeah, I mean, there's always been, I think because Texas is so tied to the land. And there's such, there's so much land compared to how many people there are. There's always been a need for independence and self sufficiency. And that's always been attributed to women as well. So I think growing up that dichotomy, that I learned, that I was forced to learn like we love tomboys in Texas. We love them. We love the idea of a woman who can shoot a hog and can, you know, fix fence herself and ride horseback. We love that idea, but we also want those women, I think in a lot of ways to still fall behind men. And that's something that's never, that I've never really figured out. I've never figured out why we love our women to be so self sufficient but we love them to also be beautiful and have perfect hair and perfect teeth. Taller the hair the closer to Jesus as they say, like we've always also had these like very traditional standardized ideas of what women need to be as well.
Matthew 17:51
Well, I think that takes, if you don't mind, sorry to interrupt. But I think that takes us to a very brief little clip. But, if you don't mind, I think it's one we have of one of the characters, who we'll meet a little bit more detailed in a few minutes, from the film. But she's one of the main characters, Lemoine Knox, and she's having, it's about a conversation she had with her dad. So if you don't mind, it's just about 20-30 sec long.
Speaker 2 18:27
Dad and I had work cattle. And my dad said: you know, honey, you don't have to get married. You can have a child out of wedlock. It's okay. Like, you can cook it AID like a cow. And at that point, I looked at my father and I said, Dad, I'm studying for the LSAT. I think I'm going to go to law school. And he was devastated.
Matthew 18:55
Okay, I think in an odd way that might illustrate what we've been talking about. About up until now, as someone who grew up there, I found that one of the most quintessentially Texas things I've heard in a long time, in terms of, it's also placed to this sort of Texas pragmatism that I seem to remember. I don't know how much it still exists. So I've been away for a while. But her father basically saying, you know, don't worry about marriage, don't worry about this thing. You can, you know, just get, you can have a baby with just being artificially inseminated. And then her response, I thought was interesting. So response is. I'm going to go get a, I'm going to get a law degree and become an attorney. So with that in mind, maybe let's, it's a very character led movie. I really appreciate that. I think there's, I would say four characters. And maybe between the two of you, we can introduce them to our audience. I don't want to give away too much. Because one thing I will say, some of the interviews and reviews I saw did give away a little bit too much, if you ask me. But let's start not with Lemoine. We'll start in the order that they pretty much appear in the film. And that's Mandy, is it? Dauses?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 20:19
Yes. Well, can I say one thing about the? Well, I love it, because it's honestly, it is the most subversive and radical and I think coolest things that like a father can say to a daughter. Like a father in like a very traditional world. Because, you know, Jack has always, Jack has always left the door open in some ways for Lemoine to just do whatever the hell she wants. And I just like, that's why, I didn't want to put any men in the movie who I didn't believe in. And that's why I put Jack Knox in the movie because he's secretly and I think just one of the most radical progressive people that I've ever met. And yeah, that's it. I just want to plug my respect for Jack Knox.
Matthew 21:19
Well, I'm glad to hear that because you'll be happy to know that one of the other clips, we've only got a couple others, but I would like, if it's okay like to play, includes him on camera. So he actually talks to camera. So well, yes. But back to Mandy. So Mandy, maybe talk a little bit, talk to us a little bit about who Mandy is.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 21:42
Yeah. Kyle, do you want you to take Mandy?
Speaker 1 21:47
I think Mandy is like sort of what I expected when we first set out to make this movie. Yeah, Sarah was telling me about these, you know, frontiers women and these cowgirls. And Mandy just sort of like fits the bill. You know, she is just, she's just a badass. I mean, that's like the only way I can really describe her. One of my favorite, I don't know if this has given away too much, it's one of my favorite scenes, but I went down alone one time, when Sarah was out. We had to film some stuff with Mandy and she was working alone because her rancher and left and you know, because there's constant turnover. And just watching her in her truck, put the truck in drive and climb out as it's moving, I'm on to the back and feed the, you know, the paddle behind the truck. It's just like, and then she climbes back in while it's still in Drive. It's just amazing. Just like a, just a total badass and just like a lovely, lovely, lovely person.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 22:45
Yeah, I'd say like, I've learned so much from Mandy just about. So I was for a time living and working on that ranch for Mandy and so just like I cannot tell you how many things she taught me just about ranching and how to respect the land. But also just like, the thing I love about Mandy is that she is so hard working and she is so tough and so fearless. And yet she's so willing to be emotionally honest and vulnerable. And that's something, as a young woman, I don't think I would have, I'm still trying to learn it and everything that I know about it, I've learned from Mandy. And I'm just, I'm so grateful to know her and to have worked with her for all these years. Because she, she's a true example of like, you can be tough and you can go after what you want and follow your dreams and be independent, but you're also allowed to say what you want and say what you need and follow your personal dreams as well. And it's, yeah, that's what I've always loved about her.
Speaker 1 24:00
But I think all the women were like, sort of like documentarians dreams in that way, like. I think it was partially because our crew was just Sarah and I on the most, you know, we had some other people that came in and out, but for the most part, it was usually just Sarah and I. And so I think that allowed for a lot of that emotional availability that like you don't always get when you're working on invasive. You're just spending so much time with someone.
Matthew 24:28
Yeah, and she fits a lot of archetypes as well. I mean, but I don't know maybe not always thought of in terms of females, but she's originally from Virginia. You know, there's this long history, there's people who have stickers on their pickup trucks that say native texts and things like that. But there's a long history of people coming to the state and being, quickly being accepted and treated as if their native sons or daughters. She's a ranch manager but yet she's got this, I think I've made a note of it. Besides that scene in the truck which I noticed as well, there's one scene you caught where she's extremely nurturing with, she's like a cow whisperer, if I may put it that way. I mean it's and it gets, we've done, last season, we did the Cowboys - a documentary Portrait, that is a documentary that came out recently. And they focused on large outfit ranches but, you know, there's a lot of crossover there. In terms of, you know, cowboys, essentially you can't be a good cowboy or cowgirl if you don't love cows, you know. And I think Lemoine's father made something about it. We chase the grass or something like that. I mean, in that same doc they talked about they're all basically grass farmers, really when it comes down to it, you know.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 25:50
All we are is grass people.
Matthew 25:52
Yeah, grass people that's right. So I think, let's give Mandy her due. We're not gonna be able to give everyone their due. But I thought, Mandy, we have a little clip here that would just, I think touches on all these things. Where she talks how she wants to be a ranch manager and what her dreams are.
Speaker 3 26:18
My dream was to be a ranch manager. If I was to think of me myself, that's what I wanted. But ranching is a family thing. And in my ultimate (pause), my ultimate dream would be to have a partner that wants the same. And that has been a huge struggle for me, because it means a lot to me. I want a husband that I work beside.
Matthew 26:56
Okay, so the next character that we can look at is Lemoine Knox. So if Mandy represents East Texas, because you do a compass point thing here with your four main characters, Lemoine represents West, and as someone who grew up in San Antonio, they're all North Texas. But she's from Coleman. Unlike Mandy, she's born into the business but we've already seen the clip with her where she's struggling with which direction her life takes. Do you want to say a little bit more about Lemoine?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 27:34
Yeah. Lemoine is the very first person who came on, who came on to the documentary. So a lot. This movie would not exist if it weren't for her and her belief. And I think one of the things that I've always loved about Lemoine is her ability to live in two different worlds. To live in two different worlds with a lot of grace and a lot of compassion for the other side. And I think that is something that this entire country needs more of. Desperately. And yeah, I wanted to not just look at generational transition from like the newcomers perspective and also someone who's lost a great deal of it. I wanted to look at the deep sacrifices that it takes to keep the legacy going. And I think the film does accomplish that. The weight of expectation, but also the fact that with a lot of expectations come a lot of love too. And the expectations put on Lemoine are not just because she's the heir apparent, but because her community and her parents love and believe in her, yeah, and believe in the ranch. But yeah, a lot, you have to make sacrifices to keep that going. And that's never fair. And I think women have to make more sacrifices to keep the legacy going.
Speaker 1 29:18
To your earlier question about, like, sort of my expectations of Texas versus reality, I think, like on her face, Lemoine's story seems almost like the most traditional one. But I think that the interaction with her and her family is, I think, the one of the ones that was really the most beyond my expectations. Because just because it how, like, it seems like such a traditional arrangement and then just getting to know Jack, especially and like Sarah said, he is like a progressive part. You know, and also, just the fact that Lemoine was like so into worlds as Sarah said, it was just so fascinating. It's just to see the area of the law that she was taking on as a way of continuing her family legacy, while also trying to maintain the ranch, was really interesting.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 30:00
Yeah, and I think, you know, men get to carry legacies on. That's what's built into the entire Western genre. That's what's built in like how our names work, like, legacy belongs to men. And Lemoine was a story that I wanted to explore of what happens when that incredibly important and rich legacy, when a woman in turn gets to carry that on?
Matthew 30:30
Well, I think that brings us to one last clip, if you don't mind. Which I have written down here "legacy" next to it. So this is all very appropriate. It's all about keeping the ranch in the family. And we get Jack on camera as well, talks about how he wants this the ranch to remain in the family for, well, forever, basically.
Speaker 1 30:56
She needs to keep it all together. Because all we are is grass people.
Speaker 2 31:12
I feel that there's a responsibility for me to come back to the ranch to work here.
Speaker 1 31:25
Well, it's been in the family over a 100 years and needs to stay in the family forever.
Matthew 31:39
Alright, so then we, we head South. I was thankful to see. And we've got Martha Santos from Laredo. And now she's interesting. Because, like you say, you've got all, each character represents a different sort of, not just region, but they're all young but slightly coming at it from a slightly different direction. Maybe you can tell our listeners more about Martha, who wants to go in first with that one? Kyle, you want to get a?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 32:10
I'll take Martha.
Matthew 32:11
Yeah. Okay.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 32:12
I'm from South Texas too. So I have a special...
Matthew 32:15
Where from?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 32:17
Corpus Christi.
Matthew 32:18
Okay. Where'd you go to high school?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 32:21
I went to high school in Austin. I didn't stay that long in South Texas, unfortunately. But yeah, Martha, I think is the future. Both of ranching and of Texas in general. I think she represents what we need. Which is someone who has incredibly deep roots in the land and in the history, but also very much understands that there is a very large world that is also just as important as we are, no matter how much Texans we like to think otherwise. But Martha's family actually came to Laredo before Texas even existed. They were Spanish settlers, they had Spanish land grant. So they've always been a very powerful, powerful family in Laredo. But as, it's hard because they've built that city, they helped build that city. So much of the success of Laredo is because of the Santos family. But ironically, as that city grew piece by piece, their land was zoned from, in the United States, it'll go a piece of land can be zoned for agricultural use, and then the government has the right to rezone it as commercial use. And when that happens, you can't farm on it anymore. The only thing you can do is sell it basically to big businesses, or the government. And so piece by piece that's, that's what happened to Martha's land and they're incredibly strong intelligent business people. So, you know, they're able to, to pivot and to keep going. But Martha came at a time in her family when that land is pretty much all but gone. And, yeah, her father passed away when she was very young. And the idea of carrying on her father's legacy through the land and through ranch management, I think is something very important to her.
Matthew 34:31
And as you alluded to previously, these ties to the land, yeah, they don't own land anymore. But she's obviously drawn to it and into a life in this, in this industry.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 34:45
Yeah, it's so funny. We don't get too much into it in the film. But Martha is, she went to finishing school in Europe. She, you know, she's incredibly well educated. She's been all over the world. And it's funny because she's finished, she's finished etiquette school. It was like an international school, and came back and went to college for ranch management at TCU, which is how she knows everyone else. So she's, her thing has always been to better understand the world and to better understand how her piece and her legacy fits within it. And I think as times change, and I think this virus has showed us like we, the entire globe is so intimately intertwined. We need someone like Martha, who understands the bigger picture and who can carry the good things of our legacy forward. Yeah.
Kyle Kelley 35:45
Well, as she says in the film, she's like that perfect middle link between the people who are actually working on the ground and people making policy right. Yeah, so having someone with both, you know, both sets of background is crucial.
Matthew 36:00
Excellent. And I think, and then there's a fourth main character, you've already alluded to is Joyce Gibson Roach, who represents the North in one way, but she's your sage, isn't she?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 36:16
She is. Yes, both in the movie and just in life in general. Yeah, I came across a lot of Joyce's writings, when I was doing research for the film. And she just writes so beautifully, she wrote a book called The Cowgirls which I highly recommend. Yeah, she just wrote so beautifully of the West and of the different female figures she had found in writings. And I just, I loved her prose and her approach and her ideas so much. I sucked it up one day and I wrote an email, at the very beginning. You don't know me, but I think you're really cool. Would you be interested...(laughter)
Matthew 37:00
I'm your biggest fan...
Sarah Brennan Kolb 37:02
I'm your biggest fan. And then she respondend. And I was like Oh my God. So that I had to like calm down my fangirllness. Yeah, definitely, I think in everything, I think looking to the older generation is so important and I didn't kind of want to weave the story about the future of Texas, without being guided by someone who so deeply and intimately understands its past. So yeah, that's where Joyce very graciously came on to the project. And we interviewed her in a saloon in the stockyards in Fort Worth.
Matthew 37:45
Well, I think. No, no, I think, if you don't mind, I think that takes us to a little break for our listeners and then we will be right back with Sarah and Kyle.
Factual America midroll 38:03
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Matthew 38:23
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Sarah Brennan Kolb, the director and producer and Kyle Kelley, director of photography and producer of the documentary western Good Ol Girl. Sarah, how did you come up with the idea for this film?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 38:41
Well, so I grew up watching westerns with my dad. And I loved them so much. That was kind of like what we thought was our thing that we share together. And my interpretation of a Western was very loose. I would watch everything from loads of dubbed to b-movies to Walker, Texas Ranger, I just like I loved anything Western related.
Matthew 39:10
You're the first filmmaker to put Walker, Texas Ranger as an influence. Well, there you go. Okay.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 39:20
Not quite a Western, but if you give me enough wine I can make the case for it. But yeah, I love these stories and I loved the idea of the West and the romance and the heroism. The idea that someone small could go on a journey and become something much bigger. I love that. And I grew up in a pretty conservative upbringing and I realized pretty early on that as a girl, those stories weren't for me, and that I was going to play a very different role in my life. And that kind of, that understanding and that kind of shattering of like what I thought my hero's journey was going to be, I think affected me a lot. This idea that, you know, who you are on the inside as a woman isn't who you can always present to the outside. And so I went about my life and I was fortunate enough to like end up making movies as a career and yeah, I was really poor and really young and really cold in the winter in New York, after I moved up there. And I just needed a break and moved back down to, my mom was living in Kennedy, in South Texas at that time. And she, she had befriended a woman who owned a cow ranch and was running it by herself, after the recent death of her husband. And I was able to befriend and shadow her, and I thought, that was kind of the first inkling of the project. And when I started talking to Kyle about it. Because that's when I realized like, oh, women can do this, because I remember being like, wait, you actually can be a cowgirl? That's the thing you're allowed to do? Like, everyone told me that was impossible. And here I was meeting women who kind of made it possible. And so that became my idea. I thought maybe this is a chance to take this genre that I love so much and reclaim it for the women. Because westerns always like to use women as pieces of landscape, to like break up the landscape. Like they're either, they're allowed to go places on a journey, but they have to be going towards a man. Or like they're the places where a hero's journey ends or keeps going. So they've never been really heroes and like active people going on their own quest. So that's what I wanted to do.
Matthew 42:12
Okay. And was that before you were working for Mandy?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 42:17
Yeah, this was all years, years before, and before I met Mandy. So yeah, I spent some time on that ranch in Kennedy and then I started meeting lots of women who were cattle women and trying to convince them to be in the movie. And they'd be like, absolutely not. But one of them said, you know TSCRA, which is The Cattle Raisers Association in Texas, who play a really big role in the industry. They have the conference every year. And one of the women said, you know what, no, I'm not. But you should go to the conference. You should get more educated and maybe you can meet people there, so...
Matthew 43:07
So just for the record, I mean, we have these three main characters that are actual, you know, Cowgirls or ranchers or however you want to describe them. But for the record, there's a lot of cattle women out there.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 43:19
Oh, there's so many.
Kyle Kelley 43:22
So many but they don't want to be in the movie.
Matthew 43:26
So is that how you ended up, because that's one of the questions. Is that how you ended up with these three? These are the three that said yes.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 43:32
No, a few others said yes. Which I was very grateful for. But yeah, these three, so I actually, Lemoine was the first woman that I met. I flew in to that conference in Dallas. They've put that I was from Brooklyn on my name tag. It felt like dummy from the get- go. But yeah, the first panel that I walked into, at Cattle Raisers, it was a panel on generational transition. And I was like, that seems pretty apropos. So I went, the only person under the age of like 50 on that panel happened to be Lemoine. And so I like, got up the nerve to talk to her afterwards, and we ended up, we were wearing the exact same cowboy boots. So that was, that was...
Matthew 44:24
For the record, what kind of cowboy boots were you wearing?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 44:26
Oh, they're Ariats. They're very, they're Ariats. They're like Special Edition Ariats that have neon Calavera skulls on them, like the sugar candy skull with neon feathers and arrowheads on them. They're very subtle, they're very tasteful.
Matthew 44:51
So, so that begs the question, Kyle, how did you get involved with this?
Kyle Kelley 44:55
Well Sarah and I met on a fiction film actually, a fiction feature. And she and I just like, you know, it was one of those super low budget, indie features where the crew either learns to really love each other or really hate each other. And luckily for both of us, we learned to really love each other. And then she asked me about this short she wanted to make in Texas.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 45:17
I don't think I have ever used the term short.
Kyle Kelley 45:24
We can check the record on that. But we went down and we basically just started filming, and then it just, we just didn't stop for three years or whatever it was. I think the reason that I stayed on the whole time is, first of all, I just love the subject matter and the potential for the film, but also just like our working relationship was great. Like, we had a very good, sort of, I mean, we just jive really well together. Like, you know, Sarah is willing to do the heavy lifting that's required when you only have one person other than, you know, you only have two people on set. And so she never shied away from like tha doing whatever job needed to be done. And she also knew that I would shoot in any scenario, except when I get sick in the back of the car shooting. Basically the only time I had to be the camera guy. But yeah, it's just like sort of started from another project and has grown into a great friendship.
Matthew 46:19
So, let's carry on with that because you're the director of photography. I think you do an excellent job on capturing modern day ranching or modern day Texas, certainly an element of modern day Texas. I mean, first of all, was it, we've had guests on before, talked about how dangerous it can be to film on a ranch. Did you find any concerns there?
Kyle Kelley 46:43
I mean, I don't think I ever, Sarah is a really great spotter also. So like there was never really a time that I felt like sketched out by you know, snakes or anything like that because she was always like watching me. And watching the monitor and watching me. I've spent a fair amount of time around cattle and stuff just being from Vermont. So I guess, I think the size of the animals might freak other people out. But it didn't bother me.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 47:09
That's a real thing. And I do want to say, one of the things why I was so grateful to have Kyle, in order to get on the ranches, was a really hard task. And like convince people that it would be okay. And one of those things was figuring out how to film without putting stress on the cattle or on the land. And so, Kyle was really instrumental in that. I didn't trust a lot of people from New York or even from Austin to come to any of these places. Yeah, and so like, Kyle was able to help me figure out a way that didn't cause any impact to the land or to the animals.
Kyle Kelley 47:51
Well, that really led to the style too. Because we like, we almost never had a tripod, which probably took a couple years off of my usable cinematography life.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 48:01
I made him do all of the interviews handheld. Although I was 24 when I made that decision, I was like it's just gonna be so unique.
Kyle Kelley 48:11
Like, you know, so we were just really low impact in terms of our footprint. Like I didn't have an easyrig or anything. Because these giant contraptions, that would freak out both the subjects that we were working with and, you know, the animals who were obviously also subjects in their own right. And so just took like a pretty minimal set.
Matthew 48:32
Wow. Well, I think, there's some great scenes. Obviously, I highly recommend people seeing the film. But you've got Mandy with the, I think we've already alluded to, Mandy with the cattle. Lemoine with her dad and dad's friend, or maybe it's an uncle, I don't know, out dove hunting or skeet shooting, whatever they're doing in that couple of different scenes. Martha walking along all those scenes around Laredo. The rodeo, so you did the Coleman rodeo. I thought that was very well shot. Was that a challenge? Were people up for that?
Kyle Kelley 49:15
I mean, like in terms of the actual filming of it, it wasn't, that's maybe the easiest thing. Because it's just shooting a lot of things over and over again. But Sarah, what do you think?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 49:26
Say what?
Kyle Kelley 49:27
Do you think people seemed bothered by our presence there? I don't seem to recall that.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 49:32
No, I mean, the really cool thing about Lemoine's mom Dudie is that whatever Dudie says goes. And Dudie is a former rodeo queen. So we rolled up and we let everyone know that we were with Dudie Knox, and they kind of let us do whatever we wanted.
Matthew 49:52
And I think that's what, I didn't asked it very well. I think that's kind of what I was getting at. And I won't go into deep, we won't go into details of that scene but I thought the shots of the rodeo and everything, it was an interesting juxtaposition between, I'll just put it out there - growing up, if you said cowgirls, I would have thought rodeo queens and girls could do barrel racing. And then there was some sort of version of calf roping but it was like with goats or something like that. But that was pretty much it. And then you have the scenes when they're all the women out on the horses and the rodeo queen at that time, current rodeo queen. And then juxtaposed with, you've got like Mandy on the ranch, and Martha and Lemoine. I thought it was an interesting sort of, I thought in that sense, I thought you caught a lot of an essence of the rodeo.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 50:51
Thank you, that's too good to hear. That was definitely the hardest, that was the hardest scene in the edit, for sure. Cuz I think, a lot of notes that I got back to the edit, were like everyone wanted me to pick a side. They either wanted me to show the rodeo as this like horribly gendered thing or just this absolute glorious thing that I love so much and here's what all y'all should think about when you think of Texas. And I just, I sat on the fence because that's how I feel. That's how I feel about the rodeo, that's how I feel about Texas in general. Like, I love it so much. I go to every rodeo that I can. I go to like my friends roping which like isn't even, there's no fanfare to that at all. But I love it. I love it so much. I love the history and the story and the ceremony that we put in a rodeo. And you know, rodeo queens and the women you see riding in rodeos that is the hardest job in a rodeo. Like what they're able to do on the back of the horse takes more skill than any bronc rider, or a calf roper will ever have. But the issue is that like that's all they give us. The problem is not barrel racing and rodeo queens, all of that stuff is beautiful, and it takes so much skill and I have so much respect for the history and for the women who do it. I think the problem that I find is that, that's all that we're given. Yeah, I hope one day that women are able to compete in whatever competition in the rodeo they want. And I hope men can also be on horseback with beautiful hats, riding around.
Speaker 1 52:44
I'd make a great rodeo King to start out.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 52:47
You would be such a good rodeo King. Yeah, that kind of tug between those two things is why I included the rodeo in the film. I love it so much, but I do want it to change.
Kyle Kelley 53:01
I should say also that rodeo is one of those great scenes that like, I had no idea how it will fit at all. And I told Sarah, it was like, we should spend our time elsewhere. And as with every, almost every other decision made in this film, she was right. And that's why she's the boss. Because she knew what she was doing the whole time.
Matthew 53:26
Well, on that note, since Sarah, you've obviously, you have the vision. You're the boss. What do you mean by documentary Western?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 53:36
Yeah, um, I don't know. I think, I don't know. What do you think about it? I think it's a pretty, it's a Western. I wanted, a lot of people told me it's not a Western, but I don't really care. A Western to me, is the landscape film about a hero's journey. And I think it's definitely a revisionist Western, but I wanted to tell personal stories against a landscape. And I wanted to present women as heroes that you root for and go intimately through their journey. So that's what I mean. That's the documentary Western.
Matthew 54:14
And what is next for this film? Because, in theory, you've had the premier at South by, but can you tell our listeners where's, what's the best chance they're going to have to see this?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 54:30
Yeah, Kyle, do you want to answer that?
Kyle Kelley 54:33
I mean, I think, you know, we should just be honest, that unfortunately, COVID has thrown everything sort of up in the air. And we're still very much trying to figure it out for the rest of the industry. It's unclear now like what the festival landscape really looks like, and if there are going to be more screenings. And distributors are still sort of up in the air, you know, everyone is sort of walking on a tight rope trying to figure out which way everything's gonna go. So I mean, we definitely, we're gonna, one of Sarah's big things that she'd always wanted to do with this film is sort of use it as an educational piece, that we could show at like state fairs and rodeos and that sort of thing. But of course, we have to wait for those to happen again. And then of course, we'll, you know, we'll eventually have distribution through streaming and such, but right now, it's still working on those details.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 55:22
Yeah, I mean, good. I'm glad we're doing the honesty thing. Either be honest, or I won't say anything at all.
Matthew 55:31
No way. I hope for nothing but honesty. I mean, what I say is, I kind of asked it a roundabout way, but I had stopped asking the What's the new landscape of documentary filmmaking going to look like? Which I used to ask and I mentioned that to one of, one of the guests, actually the first episode of this season, which is launched just recently, and he basically said, no, there's a podcast I listen to every week, they ask that question every single time. And everyone says the exact same thing. They have no idea. We don't know what's going to happen. We don't know what's going on with festivals. So, we've had, you're not the first people to come onto this podcast, who've got a film that shot made, was ready to premiere at a festival and are now just waiting to see what happens.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 56:19
Yeah, I think it's hard because every day we'll get a random email to our website. And then it'll be like, I want to see the film, when does it come out? (laughter)
Kyle Kelley 56:32
I always respond nicely - thank you so much for your interest, we'll keep you posted.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 56:38
And it's like, it's so hard because it's like, I get Facebook messages and emails every day from people asking. And I'm like, I promise we're not gonna stop until we figure it out. But it's, yeah, it's not the time. I don't know why it's not the time and I hope the time is coming very soon. But I think a lot of, a lot of people with a lot more money and a lot more influence have to figure out a couple of things before we're able to do what we want with the film.
Matthew 57:15
And, well what do you, I mean, you said that you want to do it as an educational piece. What do you hope to achieve with this film?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 57:25
I've always thought about this film, as like a Thanksgiving table movie. As something as like, when you sit down, at least for me, a lot of my family disagrees with me just about everything. And I think, at least in America right now, as I'm sure you all can very easily see from across the ocean, the divides and the ability to communicate with people who we disagree with or who might come from a different world than us, have basically all disintegrated. And my hope in this film is that coastal America can watch this and understand the hardship and the strength and the determination that it takes to make a living in rural America. And to understand that. And I also want all of the girls in small town America to know that they have a right to their own legacy. And for them to be able to have those conversations and want those things from their family. Yeah, I hope we can all talk about it at the Thanksgiving table.
Kyle Kelley 58:43
It's important for men to see it too. That's what we've always talked about and it's like...
Sarah Brennan Kolb 58:48
Yeah, I've always hoped that women would see themselves as heroes. And men would understand that women can be heroes. Yeah. Thank you, Kyle. I've always wanted that. I've wanted to introduce this idea of self determination, self determination for women to a pretty male audience.
Matthew 59:14
That's a, I think that's a very grand idea. (laughter) No, no, I'm just thinking back to not to kind of details, my own family history and some Thanksgiving, and not immediate family must say, but well, maybe sometimes. But there have been some, I think this is something... I think this is one of those years where you just want to turn around and I have asked literally one of our guests - What the hell is going on in America right now? But, you know, this thing has been going on for a while, for decades, where it's been almost impossible to have certain conversations at Thanksgiving tables. So you're right, maybe that's all, that's part of what's happening is that it's just sort of this whole has built up over the years and people have just not been talking or certainly haven't been listening.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 1:00:10
Also, yeah, I think, I don't think a documentary film will ever change the world ever. But I think a film can give an audience a story and a metaphor to express their own emotions and their own needs through. And so I, yeah, I hope that everyone on both sides of the spectrum in the United States can see a part of themselves in the movie. And I think the biggest problem we have is that we've just stopped listening to each other's stories. Yeah, and maybe if there's a story like this out there where a little piece of a lot of different people are represented. Maybe it'll, maybe it'll make us at least turn around face each other. Before we start yelling at each other.
Matthew 1:01:02
Well, at least you're doing your part. And so, I don't want to derail this or end on this note, but one last, one of the last questions to ask, because unbelievably, we're coming to the end of our time together. But, Kyle, you did mention an infamous HBO interview. I mean, what was that like being on set? And maybe give the listeners, those who've maybe been hiding under a rock a bit of a context of what we're talking about.
Kyle Kelley 1:01:32
So, about a month ago now, ish. I was on the crew that filmed the interview with Donald Trump at the White House with Jonathan Swan, that's now like a meme or many memes. And it was pretty surreal experience because I've shot at the White House grounds before and we actually shot an interview with Larry Kudlow about a month before then. And at that point, it was really interesting because no one in the White House grounds was wearing a mask, like at all. Like there was like, you know, one random person here and one random person there. But we came back a month later to film the President's interview, he had gone on like a week before and said that should be wearing mask, and lo and behold, of course everyone is now wearing masks. That was the first thing I found really interesting. And I think the next thing and this is like, maybe this is too like optimistic, but my interaction with every single person there, like staff at the White House, the various people we worked with, was all very positive and like, civil, so that was great. Being in the room was weird. You know, it's, it's strange to be filming something that as you're doing, you can tell it's gonna be like one of the defining moments of a Presidents term, possibly presidency. And, you know, it's like I was focusing so much on the camera work that, you know, you can't get too involved. But there's times when something happens and you just go, oh my god, I have to, you know, when he pulled up the charts, I was like, this is the close up moment, you know. But yeah, it was a wild experience.
Matthew 1:03:14
Yeah. And so you could sense. I mean, like you said, you've got to get this in the can, you got to film it? You know, but while you're behind the camera, you could sense there's - wait a minute, this could be a pivottable moment.
Kyle Kelley 1:03:29
I think you could tell that it was more of an honest, like conversation, then you've seen a lot of times. Because most of the time that the President gives interviews, it's with very sympathetic news outlets. And so, now that, you know, Jonathan is, he's like just a phenomenal reporter. He's just absolutely, you know, he was following up consistently and you could tell that there was some tension that there normally isn't in this sort of thing. But also to the President's credit like he wasn't, he didn't say fake news, he didn't like walked out, which he very easily could have, he gave us more time than he originally said he was going to give us. And also, oddly afterwards, despite the fact that the interview really blew up. He didn't say anything negative about it, which was wild to me. I think because he actually was like, I think he just respects Jonathan Swan. He's known him for, he's been interviewed by him before. So it was, it was a really, it was weird to be in the room where it happened, for sure.
Matthew 1:04:37
Oddly, that's all sort of, I was gonna say how does this fit into anything we've talked about up till now? I was even thinking, we're gonna have to edit this out. I mean, as much as I want to get it in there, it doesn't really fit. But oddly, there's something a bit positive and optimistic about that story, I think. I mean, that fits in with sort of, who knows, we don't need to get into, I don't want to get into a political conversation right now, but it is a, that is very interesting. That's, anyway, maybe we should leave it at that. But I will let Sarah pipe in if she wants to say something about it. You don't have to.
Sarah Brennan Kolb 1:05:18
I do but it would probably take me way too long to, so...
Matthew 1:05:21
Okay. Well then. But I do want to give you the last few final words on the movie. That's exactly right, Kyle. You definitely get the last word. And so, I usually ask guests what is this film really about? Because all great docs are more than just their immediate subject matter. This is about, you've already mentioned, it's about ranching, it's about generational change. But to me, it's really about Texas, in a lot of ways. And Sarah, how do you see Texas changing for the better and for the worse?
Sarah Brennan Kolb 1:06:01
Yeah, that's a great question. I'm gonna first off start off by saying that I love Texas, like an obnoxious amount. You can ask anyone. Um, I think Texas is changing in a lot of really good ways. I think Texas is, if you look at the last election in Houston - it was the most diverse group of elected officials, I think, in the entire history of our nation. I think Texas in a few generations is no longer going to, the face of Texas isn't going to be white. And I think that's, I think that's a good thing. And I think the real face of Texas has never been white. And I think, I hope that Texas will change in the way that we're able to talk about race and to have those real conversations. And I hope, yeah, I hope that we embrace that because our strength has always been our diversity in history and our cultures. But I also think Texas is changing for, a lot of ways for the worse. I look at the landscape of Texas, which is, you know, what the film is about and the good things about Texas are disappearing. Texas has always been different because we've been a group of people who've always been tied to the land, no matter, you know, there's Six Flags Over Texas. We've seen a lot of bloodshed. We've seen a lot of wars, we were our own nation, you know. Politic has never been too important to us. The land has always been important. And now to see the next generation of carpetbaggers, in a way come in and see that landscape disappearing is really terrifying. And I hope people see that and understand how important our land, how important protecting our land and conserving our natural resources is.
Matthew 1:08:13
Well, I said I would give you the last word. So I am going to give you the last word. And just to say to our listeners that if they want to follow what Kyle and Sarah are up to next, there are links in the show notes that you can, look to to see what projects you're up to. And we will talk about those projects hopefully another time. That would be, if we haven't scared you away. So I just want to thank Sarah Brennan Kolb, the director and producer and Kyle Kelley, the director of photography and producer of Good Ol Girl. Also shout out to This Is Distorted Studios here in Leeds, England. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.
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