Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road - Director's Take

Brian Wilson was the co-founder of the seminal 60s rock group The Beach Boys. As the leader and creative genius behind the band’s many hits, Brian Wilson has influenced generations of pop stars, including Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Taylor Hawkins and other pop royalty. 

Award-winning documentary filmmaker Brent Wilson joins us for the second time to discuss his new film, Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road. The film follows Brian on a journey, both literally and figuratively, of Brian’s old stomping grounds and memories, which include over a half-century of battling mental illness.

Brent explains how he was able to bring a new angle to the rock legend that is Brian Wilson, all while exploring what it means to be human.

“Brian Wilson doesn't think in a linear fashion, so he's not going to start with the beginning of his life…and we ended up with 70 hours of footage in the car.” - Brent Wilson

Time Stamps:

00:00 - The trailer for Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road.
05:50 - A synopsis of the film. 
08:50 - Brent Wilson's unique approach and the challenges with interviewing Brian.
13:26 - How Brent came to the idea to film Brian driving around LA.
16:26 - The challenges of making a documentary from unstructured camera footage.
22:56 - How Brian’s mental illness has affected his life.
30:46 - How music acts as a release for him, and why he is so self-conscious about his music.
37:43 - The ways Brian’s creative genius has continued through his later life.
41:16 - The soundtrack that is coming out with the film.
45:02 - The next projects Brent is working on.
48:30 - Comments on episode with Anne Rapp, director of Horton Foote: The Road to Home.
51:12 - The way some buyers took advantage of independent filmmakers during Covid.

Resources:

Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road (2021)
Streetlight Harmonies (2020)
Horton Foote: The Road to Home (2020)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Connect with Brent Wilson:

IMDb
Instagram
LinkedIn

More From Factual America:

Streetlight Harmonies: The Lasting Legacy of Doo-Wop
Horton Foote: The Greatest Playwright You've Never Heard of
10 Award-Winning Documentaries About Star Wars
A Comprehensive Guide to Understanding the Three Act Structure in Documentary Films
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 89: Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road - Director's Take

Brent Wilson 00:00
Hi, I'm Brent Wilson. I'm the director, co-writer, and co-producer of Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road.

Elton John 00:09
Brian just threw away the rulebook. Just took you out of where you were, and took you to another place.

Bruce Springsteen 00:13
There was no greater world created in rock and roll than the Beach Boys. The level of musicianship, I don't think anybody's touched it yet.

Don Was 00:21
To dream up these textures that never existed before. That's why people say Brian's a genius.

Linda Perry 00:28
You know, the rooftop is down. The story begins.

Bruce Springsteen 00:33
The beauty of it carries with it a sense of joyfulness, even in the pain of living.

Linda Perry 00:38
You know, there's something going on with Brian Wilson. There's no hiding that this man is troubled, trying to escape something.

Nick Jonas 00:45
And the pressure that comes with that, you know, the pressure to continue to be the person that people think you are supposed to be.

Jason Fine 00:54
The idea of doing an interview makes Brian nervous. And this is kind of where things got difficult for you, huh?

Brian Wilson 01:00
Yeah.

Jason Fine 01:01
What was going on?

Brian Wilson 01:03
I was having mental problems.

Jason Fine 01:04
Yeah, yeah. So, we'll often ask if we can just take a drive and listen to some music. So, this was all where the house was, right here?

Brian Wilson 01:16
Yeah.

Jason Fine 01:17
We can get out...

Brian Wilson 01:17
I want to get out. I just want to look...

Brian Wilson 01:17
There it is! X marks the spot.

Jason Fine 01:20
There it is! Look!

Taylor Hawkins 01:31
The fact that he's still here and making music, that's a miracle, isn't it?

Don Was 01:36
I don't know how you do that.

Brian Wilson 01:37
One, two, three... Yeah. I got this terrible feeling in my chest, you know? I'm nervous.

Jason Fine 01:50
You got this. That must have been a really exciting time.

Brian Wilson 01:58
It was. It was a trip.

Matthew 02:14
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome back award winning documentary filmmaker Brent Wilson, the director, co-producer, and writer of Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road. Brian Wilson was the co-founder of the seminal 60s rock group, The Beach Boys. As the leader and creative genius behind the band's many hits, Brian Wilson has influenced generations of pop stars. But don't take my word for it. Watch the interviews with Bruce Springsteen, Elton John, Taylor Hawkins, and other pop royalty. But what makes this film special are the moments Brent has captured with Brian Wilson, and Rolling Stone journalist Jason Fine, as they go on a journey, both literal and figurative through Brian's old stomping grounds and memories, which include over a half a century of battling mental illness. Stay tuned and learn how Brent was able to bring a new angle to a rock legend, all the while exploring what it means to be human. Brent, welcome back to Factual America. How have things been with you? Have you had a good pandemic?

Brent Wilson 03:29
[Laughter] Thank you, Matthew. It's really great to be back. I am a big fan of you guys program. I think I've heard them all since our...

Matthew 03:36
Oh no!

Brent Wilson 03:37
... last interview. Yeah, I'm a big fan. So, it's great to be back. Thank you very much.

Matthew 03:43
Well, that's amazing! Appreciate the feedback. I think you and my mom are the only ones, but that's great. And you and RJ Cutler are the only repeat guests, so far. So, that puts RJ in rarefied company indeed, doesn't it?

Brent Wilson 03:56
I'll take that, very much so. Absolutely. RJ's an Incredible filmmaker. I remember the one that you guys did on Belushi. And it was excellent. Yeah, it was excellent.

Matthew 04:06
Interestingly, as I thought of Belushi a few times watching your film, which is for our listeners, the film's Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road. Came out last year. Premiered at Tribeca. Grand Jury Prize winner at Nashville Film Festival. So, you had the theatrical release in the US in November, I guess, and in January here in the UK, and probably worldwide. And I gather it's on-demand on various streaming services. So, congratulations, what a great film. You must be so pleased at how this has all turned out. We did talk about it briefly last time round.

Brent Wilson 04:45
We did, we did because the film kind of came out of Streetlight Harmonies a little bit - the film that we were talking about - was kind of born in that and, no, we are - after such a long journey and a difficult film to make, and a passion project for sure as all documentaries really are, actually, they're all kind of all passion projects. But this one in particular, you know, I just put my heart and soul into and so, it's really rewarding to see it being received well and to have its theatrical release and to be seen and received internationally. So, yeah, it's been a long promised road on this end and it's lovely to finally have it out there and be seen.

Matthew 05:31
Well, if you're listening to our episodes on a regular basis, you know what the first question's going to be, I think. It's tried and true but it gets us started. So, for our audience, so, what is Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road really all about? Give us a bit of a synopsis of the film.

Brent Wilson 05:48
Absolutely. This is a very different, and I would say intimate and very personal look into the life of Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys. And Brian Wilson, as most people know, even if they're not familiar with his background know that he's lived a very enigmatic life and a very traumatic life. And even if they know only the biggest hits - Surfing USA, California Girls, Good Vibrations - know that he's made some remarkable music, but equal to his music has been his life and his story. And this film is a really personal journey into Brian's life with an unusual approach that we ended up taking trying to - to try to separate Brian the myth, and Brian the legend, from Brian the person and Brian the man.

Matthew 06:46
Glad you put it that way, because you've had great reviews, although obviously like anything, there's always those one or two naysayers who I won't mention. I won't even mention... what's that?

Brent Wilson 07:00
It's like, how do you get, like, I'll never understand how you can get just like one or two guys, you know, one or two people who're just like, No, I don't get it.

Matthew 07:10
There's this bi-op, the other biopics are a lot better. You know, it's like, you know, this is like a - I'll say it for listeners who want to go on the Wikipedia page, because, you know, you don't learn anything more than you wouldn't get out of a Wikipedia article, you know, what's the, I mean, what film were they watching, is what I ask. I mean, not to blow smoke or anything, it was just, you know, I never look at the - I never actually look up reviews, usually. But I watched it and I just kind of Googled it, I was like, what?

Brent Wilson 07:43
There's always just one or two, but we are - we're really, I'm really so - because, you know, I really took a risk with the way that we made the film. So, I didn't know if the film was going to work, you know, critically or with fans, because it is such an unusual approach. And, you know, I remember the night before Tribeca, you know, I told my wife, I was like, you know, I see it, I feel it. You know, I know that it's working in my heart, but I'm, you know, I'm too close at this point. I really don't know if fans or critics are going to kind of understand what we're trying to do here. And so, it was really beautifully received. So, I was so grateful that the critics and the fans have actually tapped into this different approach that we took.

Matthew 08:31
Well, maybe let's take that even a little bit further: what were you trying - what are you trying to do here? If we just be very explicit, and then also, and what are you showing that maybe his fans, and even those who aren't that familiar with him, will not have seen or heard before?

Brent Wilson 08:49
Sure, you know, Brian is famously anti-interview. He just hates to be interviewed. And if anybody's ever seen him on a television interview show or heard him on the radio or seen a YouTube clip, you can just tell how much he hates it and how uncomfortable he is. And it's just impossible to get a real answer out of him in a traditional interview setting. And I think, you know, part of that is, you know, he's been asked questions since he was, you know, 19 years old, you know, Brian's 80 and - almost, he'll be 80 in June - and, you know, he's been asked, you know - he had his first hit at 20, I think 20, so, you know, that's a, you know, that's 60 years of interviews. He just doesn't feel comfortable sitting down, you know, under lights, and wearing a microphone. He really has an adverse reaction to wearing a microphone. So, it's just really hard to get an honest, deep, reflective answer out of Brian in an interview. But that was my goal going in. I thought, you know, that's what I've got to try to do. That's my job as a filmmaker. If I can't get an answer out of this guy that opens up and reveals who he is, then I'm failing. And so, that was our goal going in - was if I can just somehow, someway have Brian reveal to the audience, and to us, who he is as a person, then we've accomplished our goals. So, that was the goal going in.

Matthew 08:55
And so, one thing I was going to ask you, I'll ask it now, is, I guess it's no coincidence that one of these opening scenes, which I just loved was, you ask him, you know, he's just been on a big tour. He's in his 70s, yet he's doing more tours than he's ever done. A hundred something shows in a year, whatever. You say, How do you do it? And he just, I mean, I think literally just says, it's in my head, goes to my fingers, and it goes out the speaker, and you say, can you explain it? And he says, No. And that's it. And I can just picture your shoulders drooping and your head hanging, like, how the hell am I gonna make a film? Was that one of the first things you filmed with him? And, you know, that's why you put it up front and center, isn't it?

Brent Wilson 11:07
That's exactly it, Matthew, that's exactly - that scene is up front to try to just give a little bit of a taste to the audience of what it's like to try to interview Brian, just in case you didn't know how difficult it was for Brian, is like, here's just a small, little idea of what it's like. And that was actually my final attempt to interview him. I had tried to interview him a few other times. The first time we tried to interview him, it was just audio only, and it went really poorly. And I thought, well, that's okay, I'm nervous, he's nervous, we'll - you know, I'll be okay. I tried an interview the second time, where we went to Capitol Records - and the scene's not in the film - but we went to Capitol Records, and I put him in a piano, and we surrounded him with some friends and some band members. And they asked the questions, and I tried that. And, you know, it went a little better, a smidge better, but he just kept looking at his watch, you know, it was one of those things, like, you know, he'd answer their questions in a friendly way. But I still wasn't getting there. And then as you said, I went the third time. And, you know, what you see at the beginning of the film, and that's in his house, that's up in his music room. You know, it's his home. I thought, Oh, he's gonna feel a little more comfortable here. And that interview was 15 minutes of Yes. No. No. I don't know how. It was like, I was getting beat up by Mike Tyson. And I was just like, I - this is it. My career is over. I'll never work again. Made a couple of nice movies and...

Matthew 12:42
Might need to sell the house. I don't know.

Brent Wilson 12:44
I wonder if I can get a, you know, can I operate a cash register now? What do I do? I don't - you know, I have no skills. What does a documentary filmmaker apply for as a job? I can't sell shoes. What am I gonna do? So, I thought I was done.

Matthew 12:56
Yeah. So, how did you get beyond that? I mean, I think having seen it, I know. But how did that process work? Because you're stuck. Because you wanted to make this film. We can talk more about how that access was lined up and why you are making it now, but, you're stuck here. You're not getting anywhere. You don't have a film on your hands. What happens next?

Brent Wilson 13:24
Sure. I had a - after that third time where I just, yeah, just getting beat up, I talked to Jean Sievers, Brian's manager, long time publicist, and she had suggested that I talk to Jason Fine. Jason Fine was editor of Rolling Stone magazine. And Jason had interviewed Brian numerous times over the last, you know, over the previous 15, 20 years or so. And they had become friends. And Jean thought that maybe Jason could have some advice. You know, he could give me some tips on how to interview Brian. But before we did our phone call, I went back and re-read all of Jason's articles. And so, she set up the conference call. Before that call, I went back and read all of his articles. And there was one article in particular in Rolling Stone. It was called Brian Wilson's Better Days. And in that article, Jason describes driving around LA and then they go to the movies to see the Wrecking Crew movie, a lot of sushi, and they go get a massage together. And just, you know, and they're just kind of cruising around LA. And I thought, You know what, that's a great movie. You know, Brian Wilson toured around LA, it's his home, he's defined this city. You know, he, you know, it's his vision, his dream of LA that helped build LA. And he was one of the cornerstones of the California dream. So, I thought, that's the film I'd like to see. So, I got on the phone with Jason, and Jason talked about his process, how he gets in the car with Brian, and they drive around and sometimes they'll drive for hours and Brian doesn't say anything. But he never pressures him. And, you know, sometimes, you know, to get a single article, it can take weeks and weeks of, you know, of trips out here from New York to LA to drive around with Brian. And then at the end of the phone call, he said, Look, you know, I love Brian and he goes, You know, I'd love to see this film get made. So, he made the mistake of saying, I'll do anything I can do to - is there anything I can do to help just let me know.

Matthew 15:28
Yeah.

Brent Wilson 15:29
And I was like, that was the opening I needed. And I say, Well, I've got this crazy idea. I was like, why don't we put you on camera? And let's rig up a car with cameras. And let's have you and Brian drive around LA, visit the places that meant the most to Brian and his life. And he said, Okay, let's give it a try. And that's the film we made.

Matthew 15:56
Yeah. And did that - I mean, obviously the biggest challenge is interviewing. And that's partly what - there's many themes in this movie, and one of the themes is how - trying to going about interviewing Brian Wilson, but it's, I mean, besides that challenge, I mean, what is, I imagine it's not the easiest thing to make a doc based on just putting cameras in a car and letting them roll. I mean, you had no idea what you were getting, did you?

Brent Wilson 16:26
Totally. I had no clue at all, and it's all very, you know, Brian's very random in the way he thinks; he's not - he doesn't think in a linear fashion. And, you know, so he's not going to start at the beginning of his life, and, you know, take us up through, and as Jason predicted, there were long stretches, where Brian wouldn't say anything. And then, you know, we ended up with 70 hours of footage of them in the car. And one of the things that I didn't want to do is, I didn't want to, I didn't want to infer anything on Brian, as far as an agenda, as far as what we wanted to talk about. If Brian wanted to talk about something, we talked about it. If he didn't, we didn't. I didn't want to tell him to wear the same clothes to match continuity. You know, I didn't want to say, you know, come on the radio - we had a follow vehicle, I didn't want to come on the radio and say, Hey, Jason, you know, when he was answering that question, before we were stopped, now we're moving, can you ask him again, I didn't want to do any of that at all, which when we got in the edit bay made it a nightmare. Not only to make that work, but just to find the story and to find the thread. And what I discovered was with our editor, Hector Lopez, we spent nine months editing the film, is that it became an emotional journey. And that was the moments we were looking for. And those were the moments that were - if Brian revealed himself in any way, if Brian was emotional in any way, or offered any kind of clarity on something in any way, those were the moments that we were going to use, and we were just going to try to forego and forget about a traditional narrative structure, you know, traditional three act structure, which is what I believe in as a filmmaker. We were just going to forego that, and hope that that emotional thread will pull us all the way through to the end of the film. And that's why I was saying, I think at the beginning, I was so nervous about how the film would be received, because it's not a traditionally told film, and it's not a traditionally structured film. And so, I was just hopeful that people would want to come along for that emotional journey. And I gotta say, Brian opened up in ways that I never imagined but following in that vehicle, I had my doubts every day.

Matthew 18:58
Indeed, and I guess - I mean, you're talking about someone who's been tearing up structures and doing things his own way for his whole life you might as well - the doc might as well be as well.

Brent Wilson 19:10
That's a great point, Matthew; I never thought about that. You're right, his songs have never - yeah, they don't follow traditional structures either, do they.

Matthew 19:17
I mean, you've got pop royalty on there talking about it. And, you know, how he just threw everything, all the rules, out the window and made the new rules for the rest - everyone who came behind. I mean, let's talk a little bit more about those - I mean, okay, so, people it's not Driving Miss Daisy, necessarily. it's not, you know, we're not just - it's a little, it's much more - exciting is not the word - it's certainly much more poignant than it sounds, like, two guys just driving around in a car. I mean, this is - what you capture is quite amazing. You've talked about the intimacy, you've got this - but you've - this is where all the themes start coming out. You've got this friendship that he has with Jason. So, it's a buddy movie. It's a road picture, in a way. It goes into the heartbreaks, the highs and lows of life. That one reviewer who we will not give any mention to but talked about monosyllabic answers, but he says like a thousand words with his face. It's amazing...

Brent Wilson 20:19
Thank you.

Matthew 20:20
... you know?

Brent Wilson 20:21
... that was one of the things that I was hoping audiences would see because I was seeing it, you know, I saw where we just set on his face. I saw the emotions, I saw the answers in his eyes and in his face, and you just take it on faith that the audience will as well. But I think you're right, Matthew, I think, you know, he says so much with his eyes. And he says so much with his face that, you know, the answers can be, you know, monosyllabic or short, but there is so much in them when he says them. And when you see him saying them, and in the context of what they're talking about, you know, when he talks about his brothers' passing away, and he just says, I love them. You know, when he talks about Dennis passing away, and he says, I really love him, that may only be three or four words, but my God, it just rips your gut out when he says it. And the way he says it, and then the emotion on his face, because you can see the hurt, and you can see the pain. And I think you can tell that he's never said that to his brother, you know, he never got a chance to say to Carl and Dennis, I love you, and you're a great producer. And to hear him say, you know, I miss them. You know, it may be three words, but for me, it was heart breaking to see him say those three words.

Matthew 21:53
And plenty of us can wax poetic till the cows come home and not say anything.

Brent Wilson 21:57
Absolutely. That's a great quote. He says more with three words and three notes than, yeah, most people can say...

Matthew 22:04
Well, Indeed. I mean, getting back to this. I mean, you know, this, as you talked about, he's famously difficult to interview. And, well, at least how others have tried interviewing him. But, you know, he's - let's talk about what he's battling and dealing with? You know, I know, I guess it's pretty well known, but I think for some reason, I wasn't quite aware, it's how much his mental health has really defined him. And he's literally battling demons. What is Brian Wilson - he's got this, what, schizoaffective disorder? So, what does that mean in practice? And how does that affect his day-to-day?

Brent Wilson 22:53
Yeah. No, that's a great point, Matthew, it's - and that's one of the points I wanted to make in the film is that I wanted people to understand that this is a daily battle for Brian Wilson, right? This is not something that goes away. It's not something that's, you know, you take a pill and you're - it solved or it flares up or anything like this, it's a daily battle for Brian Wilson. And he does - he has a schizoaffective disorder where he hears voices in his head. And those voices are always saying, you know, evil things, bad things: Brian, we're going to murder you. I'm going to kill you. Brian, this is the Devil. I'm taking you to hell. Just horrible things. These are the voices that he hears in his head. And he deals with that every single day and has, you know, for his entire adult life, and maybe even before we're not sure, except doctors aren't sure quite when it came in effect for him. But it is a daily battle for him. And he has his good days and he has his bad days. You know, I've witnessed the bad days, I've witnessed the good days. You know, his wife has just told me - Melinda - she said that, you know, when he stares off into the corners, is usually when he's hearing the voices; you know, he'll start to kind of look away and look up into the almost in the corners of his head. And that's when he's hearing the voices. And it's, you know, the medications that he's on, he's, you know, of course, he, you know, suffers from depression and Seasonal Affective Disorder, he suffers from that. You know, so the winters are really tough for Brian. So, it's just a daily, daily battle, and those medications that he's on, you know, those medications have to be monitored constantly, and they have to be tweaked, you know, gone on too long, then they become less effective. You make a change, and it has a side effect and it's a miracle and I think Taylor Hawkins says that - from the Foo Fighters - which is, you know, Taylor Hawkins is this crazy rock and roll drummer and, you know, he's just the guy you want to have at a party, right? But he is just one of the most insightful guys in the world. And he says in the film, he goes, You know, it's really a miracle that he's here. And a miracle that he's out performing. And it is. And the miracle is Brian's courage, you know, the courage that Brian Wilson has every day, to get out of bed and function at the level that he functions. It's truly a miracle. And I hope fans come away with that. I hope fans can witness and see just a tiny sample of what it's like to walk in Brian's shoes for just, you know, just for an hour and a half.

Matthew 25:42
Yeah, I think you have a lot of great interviews in the doc, but, I think it's also Taylor Hawkins this Gonzo drummer, if you will, who's even the one that says, Well, you know, creative types are often most sensitive and more susceptible to drugs and things like that, you know, and that came from Taylor, you know...

Brent Wilson 25:44
Yes.

Matthew 25:54
... I think, that got to a point - I mean, one thing that struck me, when you become Brian Wilson, or any of these figures like this, and we've had other docs that talk about people become - they're almost become our vision of them; our view of them is shaped by however they've been covered in the media all these years. And so, and I think one thing that comes out, and that's to follow on with what Taylor says, is that you have this whole section of the doc that talks about, you know, how he is such - not just a courageous person, but he just exudes fortitude, to have gone through everything he's been through, and to this day, still plugging away. You know, it's quite amazing.

Brent Wilson 26:50
It really is, and he doesn't have to, you know. You know, Brian is very safe in his legacy. He doesn't need the money. You know, he, you know, he doesn't have to go out there. But he wants to go out there. And he finds the - he finds, I think, life in living. And he finds life in continuing. And he's the last Wilson right, you know, his parents are gone, his two younger brothers are gone. You know, his uncles and aunts are all gone. He's the last Wilson of his generation. And I, you know, just my interpretation, but I think he takes - he sees a responsibility to keep going, and he sees a responsibility to continue. And, I do; I find strength in Brian's story. I think to myself, If I'm having a bad day, it's like, you know, what would Brian do? You know, he'd get out of bed. And we talked to a lot of fans. I interviewed a lot of fans. Unfortunately, they didn't make the film. There's so many of these things when you do these docs, you're just trying to figure out what the movie is. And we did interview a lot of amazing fans. And that was a really common theme, I think, with fans that were - there were people that love the music, but there were people that, I think, really also identify with Brian's story. And Brian's story is a mental health story. And there's a lot of fans out there that said, those kinds of those same things that, you know, if Brian Wilson can get out there and perform, then you know what, I can get up and go to my job, today. And that's an incredible, incredible tribute to Brian Wilson's life.

Matthew 28:38
And from what I could tell, it's not like he goes on about it. He doesn't, like, he doesn't wear it on his sleeve, or anything. He's just like, you got to get on with things.

Brent Wilson 28:45
Yes, yeah. He just deals with it. He faces those fears. And he just will sit quietly and think about it and then go in and do it. You know.

Matthew 28:56
I think that's a good point for us to give our listeners a break. We'll be right back with Brent Wilson, the director, co-producer, and writer of Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road. Premiered at Tribeca Film Festival in June of last year, and now has already been out on theatrical release in the US late last year and early this one, here in the UK, and it's on-demand on various streaming services.

Factual America midroll 29:22
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the MovieMaker podcast. That's all one word: MovieMaker. Where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in, to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their moviemaking secrets and behind the scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 29:49
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning filmmaker Brent Wilson, the director of Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road. It's already been out on theatrical release in the US late last year, and also here in the UK in January, and you can find it on-demand on various streaming services. We were talking about what Brian has to go through, his day-to-day battles. I mean, it may seem like the obvious, but is music a release for him? And the reason I ask that is that, it seems, you know, he doesn't seem to battle it as much on stage, you know? Is that his way of communicating? He's not the - he's never been the most communicative person, as we know. But he, there's something about, we kind of talked about that scene already: It's in my head, it goes to the fingers, it goes out the speaker, but that is the way he talks to us, isn't it?

Brent Wilson 30:46
Absolutely. And I think it is that simple for him, right? And then just kind of watching Brian, you know, and spending so much time with him and getting to know him. You know, my analogy kind of came to be, I think music is to Brian, what oxygen is to me. You know, I have to have, you know what I mean? You know, without oxygen, I'm not breathing, and I'm not living. And I just think it's that important to Brian. And, you know, when he's in the car, you know, the radio's on, you know; when he's at home, the radio is on; when he's backstage at the concerts, you know, Brian is always the first to arrive: right, he loves to be on the road. He, you know, he'll show up two hours before soundcheck and, you know, he sits in a big chair beside the stage, he doesn't go to his dressing room; he sits in a big leather chair, which you see little clips of it in the film. And he sits in this big leather chair beside the stage, just right behind the curtain. And he listens to music, and he watches the band set up, and he watches the crew, and he's listening to music. And you go to a Brian Wilson show there's walk-in music, you know; so, it's just always there with him. And I do, I think it's just oxygen for him.

Matthew 32:06
I mean, speaking of which, I mean, you know, if we think about what the prevailing narrative is about Brian Wilson, you know, obviously, we know the Beach Boys' California sound, which you obviously have touched on and then Pet Sounds, the seminal album, the album that is considered one of the best of all time. But, it strikes me in watching your film, that he's more of a genius than we realize. I think it was Don Was that compares him with Mozart, and it strikes, you know, and there's a scene where he keeps talking about he wants to make a rock album, and I'm thinking he's made loads of rock albums. But he's more Mozart and Gershwin than he is rock in some ways.

Brent Wilson 32:49
Yeah, yeah, no; it's so funny because I can't, you know, I was thinking the same thing, it's like he keeps talking about wanting to make a rock album. I'm like, my god, Brian, you know...

Matthew 32:52
You defined the rock album!

Brent Wilson 32:57
Yeah, yeah. I never quite understood that, either. But, you know, Brian's always been just a little - to go back a bit, just a little bit. You know, Brian is really self-conscious about his music. You know, because he grew up, obviously, you know, with an abusive father. And he grew up playing sports. And he grew up with two brothers; you know, I grew up with my brother, it's a miracle we didn't kill each other. And I just had one brother. So, two brothers, I'm sure one of us would have died. So, Brian really grew up, and then he also grew up in the 50s - a very rough and tumble time when men were men, right? And I, you know, I think Brian's really self-conscious of sometimes how soft his music is, and it's not like rock and roll. And he's really self-conscious of that. And almost ashamed, I think, of this, these feelings that he, you know, that he evokes, right? These emotions that he evokes are so soft and so gentle. I think there's a shame that probably stems from his father, you know, that, you know, men don't say, I love you, and men don't express their emotions and, you know, have a drink and go about your day. And so, I do, I think it's fascinating that he, you know, he, you know, he was always very self-conscious of his falsetto as well, like, you know, guys didn't want him, you know, they always wanted him to sing falsetto, and he wouldn't, he didn't want to sing falsetto because it wasn't manly. But anyway, back to your point, I think that is certainly a part of it. I treated Brian - I agree, I think Brian is an artist of a Mozart, of a Picasso, of a Monet, of a Hemingway. And, as crazy as it sounds, or as arrogant as it sounds. I treated the film that way. I thought to myself, how valuable would 70 hours of interviews be of Monet, with Monet, or 70 hours with Ernest Hemingway, of audio recordings; how valuable would that be? I'm not talking, you know, financially, but just how valuable would that be to the world to have Monet talking for 70 hours about his music? And that's the way I approached the film is because I think Brian is on that level of an artist and obviously so does Elton John and Bruce Springsteen and a few others. So, I feel like I'm in pretty good company in feeling that way.

Matthew 35:25
I think you are. And I think in terms of, I mean, one thing I want to say, I've got three boys, I cannot imagine them - that's one thing that struck me, is he talks about three boys, they sat in the back seat, and they would harmonize, I mean, there's no way I would ever get my sons to do something like that. I mean, maybe I don't threaten them enough like his dad did, I don't know. I don't give them a whack on the side of their head or anything. But, you know, this thing, you know, I think probably, would it be unfair to say that in some people's minds that, you know, his creative genius was all in his youth, and it was in the 60s. And that's, and believe me, that's a catalog anyone could rest the rest of their lives on, but he is a creative whirlwind to this day. And that's something else you you show. You show him in the studio, he is still this stickler for perfection. How many times they had to keep playing those first couple of bars there because they weren't doing it just exactly right. And it struck me as something you said - we had you on before for Streetlight Harmonies, and that was the Doo-Wop doc that you did, and I asked you about what separates those artists from contemporary artists and you said, Well, how many of our contemporary artists are going to be working into their 70s? Well, here we are; here you've got another one. You've got Brian Wilson and, I'll be honest with you, I listened to Pet Sounds again yesterday, I've listened to it before, I'm not the biggest fan of Pet Sounds, but I listened to Smile, had never listened to Smile before: I was blown away. You know, that is, and I can see why that shows up on people's top - however, now we got to go now 400, 500 albums or 100, whatever it is, but it's on there; an album you should listen to before you die, that kind of stuff. He is still - I mean, and I guess this is that mind that's the creative - the mind that's also got all the demons, also is just a mind that probably none of us could even fathom or imagine what's playing around in that head of his.

Brent Wilson 37:42
It was important for me to try to capture that. That was one of my goals, was I wanted to see Brian Wilson in his element. And I wanted to discover if it was there like that. I mean, and we do use some new tracks. You know, there's a beautiful song that Brian uses called Southern California. That's a stunning track that was on his Lucky Old Son album. Another song called Midnight's Another Day that I would encourage people to listen to, that are just stunning works that, you know, Brian's done in the last, you know, 10, 12 years that are just amazing work, particularly that Lucky Old Son album - is really stunning. But I wanted to try as a fan, and as a filmmaker I wanted to see Brian in the studio, and I wanted to see what that process was like, and that scene you're talking about, we go into the studio, and that scene that you see that's happening pretty much in real time. I did very, very little trimming down of that scene. And so, he goes in. He's nervous. Yeah, I didn't know that. I didn't know how nervous he was because I was at the studio when Jason and Brian pulled up. And he has that moment in the parking lot where he tells Jason that he's scared. And is just a daily part of Brian Wilson's life. And here is Brian going into the studio for the one millionth time, you know, with a band that he's been with on the road for a thousand shows, to his favorite studio with his engineers, and he's still scared, right? That speaks volumes, I thought, to what it's like to be Brian Wilson for a day, because here he is doing what he's done his whole life, and he's still scared. But he says, you know, I'm going to go in, and he goes in. And he goes in, Matthew, and he sits down at that piano. And he starts to work on that song Honeycomb, and it's just incredible to watch. And he just starts to dish out those parts and correct them, and he hears it in his head. And he's just trying to explain it to them and it was incredible to watch, and I was standing - I was behind the camera operator - and I was kind of taking all that in. And I thought to myself, My God, this is exactly what it was like in 1964 when he was doing God Only Knows - he did not do it any differently. Here he is at 77 years old, 78, wherever it was when we shot that and he's still doing that exact same thing and it was just inspiring to watch and I started to tear up, you know, I started, so, I did that, you know, that manly thing we were talking about where you don't want to let - you know, guys don't cry, kind of thing, so, I kind of did one of these, you know, [inaudible]. You don't want anybody see you, you're like, you're rubbing your eye, you don't want them to see you wipe away the tears. As I did that, I looked over and I saw three other people crying. Jason Fine was tearing up, David Calcano, our graphics designer and art director, David was crying. And a couple of minutes later, he left the studio and that afternoon, that night when we done, I said, Dude, I can't believe you left the studio right in the middle of that moment. And he goes, Right? I was crying so hard, I thought I was going to destroy the take. I thought I was going to ruin the take. So, we all knew as fans, we were witnessing something. It's a miracle. It really just is. It's incredible to watch. So, I, you know, just to see Brian work on that song, that was worth the price of admission, right there.

Matthew 41:12
Yeah, I think - and is there, I mean, there's a soundtrack that comes out with this?

Brent Wilson 41:16
Yes. There's a soundtrack that's out and Honeycomb is on there. And all the other songs Brian recorded for that session. And what we did was I wanted to have Brian record, as he did in 64. A lot of recording nowadays, you know, it's all obviously on Pro Tools, and they generally record, you know, one instrument at a time, you know, they have the drummer record; if you want a French horn or a saxophone, you pull it down off the computer and all of that. Artists are never in the room, anymore. And I find that really sad. I understand having - being a producer on this film, I understand why they do it that way. It's very expensive to have that big room with, you know, I think Brian's band is ten guys, twelve guys, have 10, 12 guys at one time in hotels, all recording at once: very, very expensive. But I wanted to record that and our producers were kind enough to indulge me on that. And I thought to myself, I just want to see what that's like, I want to see what that energy is. And I think we capture that. I think we see Brian, you know, doing that. And so, we released, we put out a soundtrack - we didn't plan to put out a soundtrack but I was like, Look, it'd be crazy not to release these, you know, six songs that Brian recorded over those three or four days, out. And so, those songs are out on the soundtrack now, along with some unreleased songs that are in the film. And then the new song Right Where I Belong, that he did with Jim James of My Morning Jacket that we made the Oscar shortlist on. We didn't make the Oscar nomination but Brian did go to the Oscar shortlist. So, he was on a final 12 songs. Yeah, yeah. So, we made, yeah, we made the cut from 130 to 12. And then last week they had the Oscar nominations come out, and we didn't make the top five but it's still a remarkable song that Jim and Brian did. I'm really proud of that version.

Matthew 41:38
Indeed, and I found out something new. Jim and I share the same birthday.

Brent Wilson 43:21
Is that right?

Matthew 43:21
Yeah, he's in April. He's a few years younger than me, but he's, uh, but yeah. Doing a little, you know, we spare no expense here at Factual America with our research, but yeah, doing the Google search, I discovered - not many people have my birthday, but he's one of them.

Brent Wilson 43:23
And you're going to take those, right? You gotta take 'em when you can get them right?

Matthew 43:42
Exactly. Exactly. Well, congratulations on that. And congratulations on what I, you know, I highly recommend. I mean, I say, you know, most of the films we have on here, almost all, I have to say all the films we have on here are great and worth a watch, but I do highly recommend this one. I found it extremely poignant. And that says someone who's - I've always appreciated what Brian Wilson's done and the Beach Boys, but I wouldn't necessarily have described myself as a fan, or a huge fan, of theirs. And there's these, you know, generational issues and, you know, because Brian's the exact same age as my mom, practically, but the thing is - but, you know, I, you know, I have a much better appreciation for him and what he's going through and what he has gone through, and also just sort of, it's kind of like almost the meaning of life. You know, watching this film, kind of, that's this is life, its ups and downs. And we see it through the eyes and of - in the sounds of Brian Wilson...

Brent Wilson 44:48
That's beautifully put, Matthew, thank you for that.

Matthew 44:51
... well the caffeine's finally kicked in, I think. How do you follow up this magnum opus? You're gonna make another music doc?

Brent Wilson 45:02
I'd love to make another music doc. Jason and I - l Ioved working with Jason. And so we're talking about a few projects that we're trying to get off the ground, and then about a project coming out later this summer. It's a completely different world, it's in the sports world, and maybe we can come back and talk to you about that at some point. I think they're gonna announce it here, hopefully, in the next week or two, but it's a completely different kind of project. But it's an epic sports film, sports documentary. And then, yeah, I would love to continue to work with Jason and explore these artists, because, you know, they do live remarkable lives. And they do, they do give us so much joy. I think that's one of the things that I love about making the music documentaries, or at least my approach to documentaries, because I also did this with Streetlight Harmonies, and with this current doc, and I did it with a documentary that I did on World War Two veterans, it's that you want to return the favor, right? You know, Brian Wilson has given me so much joy, and so much love in my own life, you know, I want to be able to return that favor in just some small, tiny way. And that's the way I try to approach my films.

Matthew 46:16
Yeah, I think, well, first of all, I do hope you make another one with Jason. Though, I don't know who you're going to - because he's got some great articles over the years, but they're usually now, unfortunately, with people who've now passed away. So, you're not going to get Merle Haggard back, you're not going to get Johnny Cash. So, I don't know. But I know you probably can't say who might be in the works, but I do hope you do. Because I thought that was a - certainly, I can't imagine anyone else.

Brent Wilson 46:45
I can't mention them just purely for not jinxing them. I just don't want to jinx them. That's always the whole trick.

Matthew 46:50
Exactly!

Brent Wilson 46:51
It's not a secret. It's just you don't want to jinx them.

Matthew 46:54
Yeah, exactly. No, I perfectly understand. Which is why I'm not gonna press you on which sport? What do you know? Is it basketball? Is it baseball? What are we talking here? But we look forward to that. And we'd love to have you on and make it a three-peat.

Brent Wilson 47:13
Maybe we'll all get back into a theater and, yeah, go see some movies, right?

Matthew 47:17
You know, maybe I'll come to the States we can actually do this face-to-face. Wouldn't that be amazing.

Brent Wilson 47:21
That would be fantastic. I'd love to. Yeah, yeah. Come to LA and yeah, beer's on me.

Matthew 47:27
Well, there, you see. That's your mistake. That's like Jason saying doing whatever you let me know, whatever you need, I'll help you out. Once you offer me a beer, I'm probably coming. Alright, well, I just want to thank Brent Wilson again, for coming on. Director of Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road out on, well, just look for it. Google it. It's out on various streaming services, and it may still be in a theater or cinema near you. Thanks again.

Brent Wilson 48:01
Thank you, Matthew. It's a wonderful program. And I'm going to keep listening.

Matthew 48:04
Well, I appreciate that. I think if - I mean this, I didn't give you the feedback that you solicited. I didn't ever get my teenagers to watch this movie, but you didn't need their feedback. The thing is, if you ever have anything else you, or suggestions, or things you think we could do differently, let us know.

Brent Wilson 48:22
Yeah, you have great taste in all of your films. You know which one I really enjoyed, too, was - oh, gone blank on the writer's name. It was the playwright from Texas.

Matthew 48:34
Oh, Horton Foote.

Brent Wilson 48:35
Yes. Horton Foote. That was beautiful. Lovely.

Matthew 48:39
And as you can appreciate that is Anne, Anne Rapp who did the film. I mean, she'd no film background at all.

Brent Wilson 48:47
None. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew 48:47
I mean, well, she was - a film in that she was in the industry but she, you know, she was not a director.

Brent Wilson 48:53
Like a script supervisor, right?

Matthew 48:54
Script supervisor...

Brent Wilson 48:56
Yes, yeah.

Matthew 48:56
... for a lot of famous directors and Tender Mercies and others. And she decided - and it's, again, you talked about these being passion...

Brent Wilson 49:07
Passion projects, yes.

Matthew 49:08
I mean, that one was a - because I - how long did this one last for you? Was this - take about five...

Brent Wilson 49:13
Five years, yeah yeah, yeah. Five years. Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 49:16
Hers was over ten years.

Brent Wilson 49:17
Yeah, no - I drew so much inspiration from her story. It was lovely to hear that, to hear her story, yeah. I really enjoyed that one.

Matthew 49:26
Yeah. I'm glad to hear that because I think we put that as one of our favorites for that year. And I think it also was - yeah, I think it shows, you know, it doesn't have to be a big name celeb.

Brent Wilson 49:39
Absolutely.

Matthew 49:39
I mean, he's known in his circles, but, you know, it can be about a - I think he was about ninety years old at the time. And you can follow him around and you can make a lovely film out of it that resonates with people.

Brent Wilson 49:55
Exactly. It doesn't have to be, yeah, a $3 million documentary, you know, with Ron Howard as the director or Peter Jackson, you know, you don't, it doesn't have to be that. And I thought it was just a wonderful film and a wonderful - her story for telling that film and how she got it. It was just wonderful. It was really inspiring. And I think you're 100% right. I hope people who follow docs, and want to be doc filmmakers, I hope they heard that episode, because that's what they should be doing. Not, you know, not trying to do the next Get Back. You know, that's not going to happen, anymore, you know. You know, doing the Get Back is, you know, like - akin now to directing the next Star Wars movie. There's one or two guys are going to do those films and the rest is going to have to be done in a very, in a manner in which she did it. It was a lovely story. Really lovely.

Matthew 50:52
I mean, since we're on this track, and the camera's still rolling, proverbially, I think, what were the strugg - I mean, you must have struggled selling this to people. I mean, in terms of, you know, what, well, I got two guys in a car driving around for, we got 70 hours of film, let's - you know.

Brent Wilson 51:09
It was a really, it was very frustrating time, because you're right, we had a different, very different kind of film, even though we have Bruce Springsteen, you know, Elton John, you know, Taylor Hawkins from the Foo Fighters, Nick Jonas from Jonas Brothers, you know, Nick Jonas has 40 million Instagram followers, right? If he put up a movie of him clipping his toenails, it's going to be the highest rated film of the day, right. And we yet, still, you know, we, at the heart of it, it was this very intimate and personal film with these guys in a car. And it was difficult to try to get people to understand and I think, and believe, audiences are going to respond to this, because it wasn't traditional. And so, it was a tough path. And then, of course, probably the biggest factor was Covid. You know, we were set to premiere at Tribeca in 2019, and Tribeca was going to be in April, I think, March or April, and we were two weeks away; I was out buying a new suit, and I got the phone call that Tribeca had been cancelled. And, you know, nobody knew what was going to happen, what was going to happen, how it was going to happen, how long this was going to happen. And what we discovered, Matthew, was that a lot of buyers tried to really take advantage of filmmakers during that time - of independent filmmakers of that time - where they were going to lowball and say, Okay, they're sitting on this content, they're panicked, you know, we're not panicked. So, we're gonna buy low. And so, we got a lot of really low, shitty offers, that, you know, that, you know, I would rather, you know, we don't need to talk about who they were, but there was, yeah, they thought, you know, we're gonna go buy Coming to America 2, you know, we're gonna go buy Greyhound, the Tom Hanks film, we're going go buy all these big films, and we're going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on them. But these independent filmmakers, we're going to offer them pennies on the dollar, because they're panicked. And so, that went on for quite a while. And there was an unfortunate time for independent filmmakers. But we were fortunate in that our producers, Tim Headington, Theresa Page, we were in a position where they didn't have to take those offers, and we could kind of wait this out and wait for theatrical to come back around and wait for, you know, we could just wait this out. And we did, we're really happy with our partners, and both domestically and internationally. And we feel really fortunate. But I know, as a documentary filmmaker, it was a frustrating time. Because of the situation that Covid brought. So, hopefully, we're out of that, and we're through that now, and we'll get back to a little bit of normalcy, and we can get back to some in person festivals, you know, get back to people. That was the other thing that was really frustrating. We turned down a lot of festivals, because we didn't want to do in person. You know, I just didn't feel like the film. I just don't think the film should have been seen on a laptop. You know, I wanted it to have the opportunity to be seen in a theater and heard in a theater. And I just didn't want somebody watching it on their phone and hearing God Only Knows broken down and multi tracks on an iPhone or an iPad. So, we were fortunate we turned down a lot of the in person festivals, and we were able to wait for Tribeca to do their in person get outdoors. And they were wonderful. And then we did Nashville at that point, which was opening back up, and then, yeah, we were able to have our partners release it domestic and internationally in theaters where it can be heard and seen.

Matthew 54:50
Yes. And I guess we should give a shout out to Universal, obviously, and also say - yeah, that's great. I'm so glad that worked out for you, and I must say, what strikes me as a independent filmmaker, hope always springs eternal. That whole period you're talking about - the number of people who were saying, Look, they're going to be starved for content, so, they're going to pay us even, it's going to be better. But it was the exact opposite.

Brent Wilson 55:14
It was the exact opposite. Yeah, they were the veterans. They were the experts. And they knew that, yeah, yeah. We were going to be panicked, and we were sitting on it. And like, Oh, my God, we've got to get this out. Yeah, it was eye opening. It was really, very frustrating, very eye opening. A very eye opening time.

Matthew 55:37
Well, glad it worked out for you in the end.

Brent Wilson 55:41
Absolutely.

Matthew 55:41
And it worked out for all of us who get to see this, and thank you so much, and yes, anytime, love to have you back, look forward to whatever the next doc is, whether it's that sports one that you can't talk about, or that music one you can't talk about, either one. Brent, good luck, and thanks again. And we'll hopefully see you sooner than another, you know, a year and a half.

Brent Wilson 56:06
Absolutely. I'd love to be the first three-peat. Yeah, that's my goal, now.

Matthew 56:09
There you go. See, that's what's on your wall, on your whiteboard.

Brent Wilson 56:13
That's right. It's on my dream board now. Three-peat! [Laughter]

Matthew 56:18
Alright, take care. Thank you, Brent.

Brent Wilson 56:20
Thank you, Matthew. Take care.

Matthew 56:21
You too. Yes, I just want to thank again, award winning filmmaker Brent Wilson, the director of Brian Wilson: Long Promised Road. Had a theatrical release in November in the US, and in January here in the UK, and worldwide, and is now on-demand on various streaming services. So, Brent, thanks again for coming on to Factual America, again. I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 56:22
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