Apocalypse '45: The Harrowing Reality of the Pacific War

Factual America

4 May

Written By

Premiering to coincide with the 75th anniversary of the Pacific War's end, the documentary Apocalypse '45 combines pristine raw, colour footage of the last months of World War II in the Asia-Pacific theatre with the voices of the two dozen men who lived through the nightmare.

Critically acclaimed director, producer and writer, Erik Nelson, joins us to discuss the making of Apocalypse ‘45. Erik shares how he found this never-before-seen footage of the war and made contact with the veterans who had lived through these gruesome events.

He talks about how, as director, he created the narrative of the film and what the creative process looked like. We also learn what it was like for Erik, as producer of Grizzly Man (2005), to work with the legendary director Werner Herzog.

“A good deal of that footage was filmed by a cameraman who was killed on Iwo Jima. He was sealed up in a cave alive. The man literally died to make this footage.” - Erik Nelson

Time Stamps:

00:38 - The trailer for Apocalypse ‘45.
05:08 - The synopsis of the film.
06:09 - Why Erik focused the film on the last year of the Pacific War.
07:36 - How he found out that this footage existed.
09:55 - The amount of footage Erik went through.
11:58 - Who filmed this footage and why.
15:10 - The harrowing realities of the war that were found on these reels.
17:30 - Discovery’s streaming service and their licensing of the film.
20:55 - What Erik thought when he first saw this footage.
23:18 - The lack of sound that the original footage had.
25:03 - How Erik constructed the narrative and script of Apocalypse '45.
26:24 - How he made contact with veterans and how eager they were to tell their stories.
29:50 - The different perspective of the war that Americans and Brits have.
32:34 - Whether it was a right or wrong decision to drop the atomic bomb.
40:04 - How Erik attempted to bring people into the realities of living through the war.
43:53 - Erik’s view of today's generation.
45:02 - What it’s like to work with Werner Herzog.
47:07 - The next project Erik’s working on.
48:50 - The popularity and future of archive films.

Resources:

Apocalypse ‘45 (2020)
The Cold Blue (2018)
A Gray State (2017)
Grizzly Man (2005)
Encounters at the End of the World (2007)
Thank God for the Atomic Bomb, a book by Paul Fussell
Dinotasia (2012)
This is Distorted
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 59 - Apocalypse '45: The Harrowing Reality of the Pacific War

Erik Nelson 00:01
My name is Erik Nelson. I'm a film director, documentary director and producer whose most recent film is called Apocalypse '45. It's an immersive look at the last year of fighting in the Pacific Theater in World War Two.

Intro 00:15
We were all Americans. We had a strong belief in this country. If I could do it again, I would for this country. I love this country. They told us that they were very vicious people; that for them to die was an honour. They were not going to give up. We were thinking about saving our asses. Yeah, it's true.

01:22
One guy lost his foot. And he was the happiest guy in the world cause he said I'm getting off of this island.

Intro 01:32
They didn't care about us, they were there to take the ships. They had balls. Or they had plenty of sake. Either one.

01:51
Oh, accurate, very accurate. If you pick the target...

01:54
... and you fired with the rocket. It's going to hit whatever you aim for.

Intro 02:03
I like rockets, no problem at all. I saw Nagasaki and Hiroshima. And I was absolutely surprised and astounded. That was like you were carrying a load, and all of a sudden you dropped it off and you were completely free.

02:36
It's been said many times by many people that war is hell. Well, I never visualized hell being that bad.

Matthew 03:00
That is the trailer for the documentary Apocalypse '45 coming soon to Discovery. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today, we're talking about America's greatest generation. Those who survived the Great Depression, fought in the Second World War, and literally saved the world. To discuss a key chapter in the story through breathtaking never before seen footage is the acclaimed director, Erik Nelson. Erik, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Erik Nelson 03:36
Now? Good. We're sitting here, what, 6000 miles away? You're in London and I'm here in the People's Republic of Santa Cruz on a bright, sunny day!

Matthew 03:45
Yes, the Banana Slugs? Isn't that the mascot for UC Santa Cruz?

Erik Nelson 03:48
Go Slugs! I'm a proud alumnum - I'm a proud alumni of UC Santa Cruz.

Matthew 03:52
Well done! Well, as listeners, viewers - who are watching this on YouTube will know - the film is Apocalypse '45. You've introduced it actually, already. We understand it's coming soon to Discovery. But do we know when, yet? Because I know a lot of people are curious.

Erik Nelson 04:11
Yes, it's coming to Discovery Plus, May 27th, just in time for Memorial Day, which is a very fitting time for the film considering the subject matter.

Matthew 04:20
Yeah, indeed. And that's great news. Because if you do even just a little search on the internet, you see a lot of people wanting to know when is this going to come out.

Erik Nelson 04:28
It's interesting. Yeah, there is a lot of - because we had a theatrical - a virtual release in August, September. So, enough - there was enough writing about it. And then by the time people really started tumbling to it, it disappeared. So, we're looking forward to making it available.

Matthew 04:46
Okay. Thanks so much for coming on to the podcast. And it's great to have you on and also as an American citizen, though based here in the UK. But let me thank you for making this film. I think this is quite incredible. Now, you gave us - well, you gave us at least a logline, I think in your intro, but maybe give us a bit of a synopsis of what this film is about.

Erik Nelson 05:09
In the final year of World War Two, in the Pacific in 1945, much of the combat at extremely close quarters was captured on color film. For some reason, the war in Europe, it was tougher to get color film over to Europe, but it was not difficult to get it to marine and navy photographers. So, an astonishing amount of color footage was filmed of that last year in the war. So, I took that footage from the National Archives and restored it very, very meticulously to 4k and widescreen, and created a 90 minute immersive, deep dive into the war, but only through the images and the off-camera - off-camera voices of 24 men who were involved in the war.

Matthew 06:00
And I mean, I think you've sort of least alluded to this already, but why did you focus on this particular part of the war?

Erik Nelson 06:09
Well, the - obviously the tail that wagged the dog, or the dog that wagged the tail is, you know, the last year of the war, they got better and better at shooting, and better and better cameras were out there. Also, it allowed me to encapsulate a harrowing story of that January to September when the surrender was signed in Tokyo Bay. And the film was originally theatrically released to time with the 75th anniversary of that conflict. And, frankly, with the polarization in the United States, and the sort of fragmentation of our norms as a country, I felt it appropriate to do a film that was truly purple that no one on either spectrum could have any disagreements with and it's very tough now to do a documentary of any topic or subject without stepping on the third rail of American polarization.

Matthew 07:06
Yes, having interviewed a few of your colleagues I am aware of and watching quite a few docs, I'm aware of that fact. And I think we'll talk a little - Maybe we get to that a little bit more a bit later in our discussion, because I thought it was very interesting some of the things that some of the people had to say, in the film. Now, you mentioned you had this footage, how did you? I mean, this stuff was at the National Archives, right? I mean how did you find out about this stuff?

Erik Nelson 07:36
Well, I've known about it since - not to betray my age - the first project I did with this film was in 1985, when I literally had to go to its original repository, which is Norton Air Force Base in San Bernardino and get film cans and put them on a flatbed to look at some of the footage. So, I was aware of this material. So, it's always been sort of nagging at me. And a few years ago, I did a film called The Cold Blue, which was another immersive - I call it Koyaanisqatsi with B17s - that took William Wyler's footage from the Memphis Belle and turned it into sort of this tone poem of aerial combat. So, I developed a relationship with the National Archives, and I knew about this footage. So, there's sort of an inevitability about doing the second film. I like to think of this film is to The Cold Blue what the Godfather Part Two is to the Godfather Part One, where it takes the style, the director, the approach, and kind of deepens it, and goes deeper, longer and wider.

Matthew 08:40
It's interesting, but you don't have to watch The Cold Blue before watching this film.

Erik Nelson 08:44
Oh, not at all. No, not like The Godfather, no; there's no Luca Brasi in this film, but the - great minds seem to have been working at the same time; when I premiered The Cold Blue, Peter Jackson was finishing up They Shall Not Grow Old, which came out about six months later. And then Apollo 11 came out. So, it's interesting that three filmmakers had the same simultaneous idea of big screen restored history with near only audio underneath it. No, no, no breaks. So, there seems to be a certain inevitability to this format. So, you know, it's...

Matthew 09:23
And it's pre-COVID, too; I mean, right, for most of the...

Erik Nelson 09:26
No, it was and it wasn't. We finished the last shoot in Staten Island, which was not a hotbed of COVID, February 26th. We got our last footage out of the National Archives in mid-March when things were really starting to deteriorate. And the National Archives closed one week later and has still not reopened. It would literally be impossible to do this film today.

Matthew 09:49
It's amazing. If I gather there was, what, 700 reels?

Erik Nelson 09:54
Well, there's a massive amount of material we narrowed down. I gained literally countless reels to 140 that we deemed worthy of transfer. So, we took them off campus out of the National Archives to a film transfer laboratory, and used - I won't go into the technical details - but went from the raw film to actually not 4k, 6.5k, and then did one passive restoration and then made the movie and once the film was done and locked, we went back and meticulously did what we had to do to the 90 minutes of final footage.

Matthew 10:31
And how many - I mean, how many hours of footage did you have to go through and work with?

Erik Nelson 10:37
Oh, I don't know, 140 reels times 15 minutes? I don't know what that breaks down to. A lot.

Matthew 10:44
That's a lot!

Erik Nelson 10:46
Yeah. And I went through all of, you know, all of it and picked the selects and sort of went through it. This isn't the first - I mentioned The Cold Blue; this, in a strange way there's a through line to my work starting with the film Grizzly Man which I produced in 2005, which was a film based on a director - another director's work; in essence, it's the making of a movie, with footage filmed by Timothy Treadwell. And then I did a film called Gray State in 2017, which was another documentation of a death spiral of a conspiracy nut who went too far down the rabbit hole culminating in murder-suicide of his family. Real cheery fun ride there. Then The Cold Blue which took William Wyler's footage, and now this film, so there's kind of a con- I won't say I have a brand but there's something about taking footage that was filmed perhaps for a different purpose and re-versioning and telling a different story with it.

Matthew 11:47
You bring up an interesting point. So, how did this footage come about? I mean, were cameraman embedded with these units?

Erik Nelson 11:54
Yeah. In fact, we have footage in the very beginning of the film shot in Cairo in 1943, where FDR specifically said 'I want you, as the president of the United States, to film this battle, and I want to bring home the cost'. So, there's footage that was never shown during the war, but there's footage of a few American bodies on a sandy beach which no one had really ever seen before. Some World War Two historians I was working with had never seen this before. But it was part of Roosevelt's commission, so they had cameraman embedded on the flight deck of aircraft carriers as kamikazes are heading straight at them. And these guys are continuing to film. Our Iwo Jima footage, a good deal of that footage was filmed by a cameraman who was killed on Iwo Jima. He was sealed up in a cave alive, he was wounded and they had to seal the cave with him in it. And his body has never been found. So, men literally died to make this footage and it's not only harrowing combat, but there's some very quotidian - other details in the film that to me are equally as powerful and we had to balance the material.

Matthew 12:04
Well, yeah. So, as you pointed out, I think it's - we haven't mentioned it, but there's even some John Ford footage, isn't there.

Erik Nelson 13:09
Yes. That was the big discovery: that John Ford who is the Zelig of early World War Two. He was on the flight deck of the Hornet when the Doolittle Raiders launched. Then he went back to Pearl Harbor. And while he was at Pearl Harbor, before he went to Midway, he filmed some footage for his buddy Gregg Toland, Gregg 'Citizen Kane, photographer' Toland and 'Best Years of Our Lives' William Wyler, I might mention, but he picked up some footage for a Pearl Harbor film that Toland was doing. Some of that footage appeared in Toland's documentary in black and white, but we discovered the raw color camera loads, which was a real revelation. No one's seen that stuff before.

Matthew 13:52
It's amazing. I mean, but you know, William Wyler, John Ford, but then, but most of these guys were just these cameramen.

Erik Nelson 13:58
Most of these guys are just army cameramen. And their job was to get right in the front lines; if we can say it right in the middle of the shit and keep filming. And so this film is dedicated to them, as well it should be because they captured some extraordinary images and bits and pieces of this stuff has been seen in every World War Two documentary ever made. But what we did was we were on a different hunt. We were looking for a different tone, a different feel, and a different kind of approach. So, this is not a World War Two documentary. This is not something traditional. It's really trying to do something - we were hunting different - we were hunting bigger game, if you will.

Matthew 14:43
I have to agree with you. So, there was a, you know, there might be a snippet here and there that I think I remember: Maybe I've seen that a little bit, you know, before - like you said, it's been in every World War Two doc but what struck me is besides being all in color, so, you know, if you are a certain age growing up in the United States, you have this view of World War Two, and it's all black and white, and whatever. But I thought I was watching Vietnam War footage.

Erik Nelson 15:09
Well, that's it. You know, it has the same level of immediacy as the Vietnam War footage, which again, has been used before. But what usually happens up to now in World War Two documentaries, it's either used in black and white. It's never used widescreen. If it is widescreen, it's squashed and vague. But through 4k, we finally have the technology to make it sharp, put it in widescreen, without any loss of material. And also, again, the approach we're not trying to tell it: now this happened, and now this happened; and now we're going to see this. It's very much an impressionistic - The Koyaanisqatsi idea from The Cold Blue sort of hung over into this to some degree.

Matthew 15:48
And I have to say, I mean to listeners, viewers, and this is not meant to put anyone off. It's not easy watching some of it. I mean, this is war. I mean, this is very realistic, I think, in a way that I've never seen with regards to the Second World War, certainly.

Erik Nelson 16:03
Well, that's it, it is. And those are the images that were censored, these guys kept rolling, and they sought this, we went from their raw film reels. So, they're respectful. You know, they don't - there's not a lot of footage of American dead. But there are some shots which we used. And there's a lot of material we didn't use. Believe me, there's some things that were truly - I was really shocked that they were filming some of this stuff, especially the Japanese civilians throwing themselves off the cliffs, there's a lot of footage that we didn't use, that we just pulled back. And this is - we refer to it in the film as a war without mercy. There was a real high degree of dehumanization, it was a absolute Total War, racist, uncompromising, both sides, and there was no quarter given, no quarter asked. And that's a part of this story, too. And the vets we talked to in their 90s, which are obviously such an important component, they still, quote unquote, go there, you know, so you're there. This isn't a film that tries to be politically correct, because that's not, that's not a part of it. And again, this film sort of exists outside the vortex of traditional documentaries that are being made; it doesn't really fit in any particular genre, of quote, unquote, feature docs that go into theaters or go on to streaming services, which is why Discovery really deserves a huge amount of props for funding this and for enabling it to be made.

Matthew 17:38
I'm glad - that's a good point and give a shout out to Discovery because I must admit, when I saw this had - after I watched it, and then saw that it hasn't been released I was like, maybe they're having second thoughts because this is, this is, I think it's quite brave to put this on.

Erik Nelson 17:55
Oh, it is, it's an adult portion. But you know, with Discovery Plus launching, now, they've stepped into big time into the streaming arena. And they're extending their brand. And this film takes that brand one step further, because it is real, it is a documentary, it is true to real - you know, it is true. And Discovery has a long history of creating, enabling great documentaries. Grizzly Man was originally done for Discovery and Encounters at the End of the World, which got an Oscar nomination for Werner back in 2008. That was a commission for Discovery. So, I go way back with Discovery.

Matthew 18:35
Well, again, thanks, again, Discovery for getting this out. Because I was even gonna, you've already said, I mean, I was gonna ask if you had to hold back at all, because I mean, some of these - you know, we don't - I think of any doc that I think I've watched recently that we've discussed on this program, this is one that I'm especially not going to go into too much discussion or detail about the actual film itself in terms of the story and what you'll see because I think one of the - what I found personally, so powerful was not knowing what I was getting into, when I watched this thing, and watching it unfold, and realizing, you know, that this is all real footage, and just vivid and real life and it's like straight out of in your living room type stuff from the Vietnam War, which I'm sure some of our listeners will think is a really long time ago, but even there, I mean, that is - there's always been sort of this disconnect I always felt like between everything pre-Vietnam, was a kind of a different conception of what war was like, and then we have Vietnam and everything after it.

Erik Nelson 19:42
Vietnam was, you know, allegedly the first televised war; you know, it was the war that was brought in to your - the living room wars they call it and World War Two kind of wasn't but actually it was; it was just that there was no place to use this footage. And in quote unquote traditional World War Two documentaries from Victory at Sea to World at War, those are in black and white, and there was a certain amount of censorship involved. What with can we show this? Should we show this? But this film is by no means Faces of Death, and I don't want anyone to think - it isn't. And it could have been. But, and I think the reason Discovery didn't, you know, I think there was a bit of shell shock when they first saw it but the reason that we did so few editorial changes was we were respectful. We were careful.

Matthew 20:33
I completely agree. And one last thing, well, not last thing, but one thing I wanted to ask you then is, then we're going to take a little break here for our listeners. But I mean, you already said you were kind of aware of this, since some of this at least since 1985. Did you, I mean, what did you think when you first started watching this? I mean, did anything really surprise you?

Erik Nelson 20:55
No. Just that oh, my God, this exists, and how come it hasn't been used properly? To be honest with you, I've always known that having done more traditional World War Two documentaries, a number of them for Discovery, some for the History Channel, some for National Geographic, I've always tried to push the boundaries, but I've never was able to make a film that really got it before. So, I've been aware of it. But yes, I - by being able to go into the 140 reels, and look inside the reels and notice, oh my god, look at that, look at this - you know, one of those scenes that's most powerful for me, and if you've seen the film, you'll know what it is, is not, you know, Kamikaze smashing into flight decks or the ruins of Hiroshima; it's a traumatized American soldier coming out of the mud holding a white rabbit. That to me is the, you know, if I had to say it someone said, well, director's message, I would say that shot with what the veteran is talking about behind it.

Matthew 22:02
I completely agree. I was about to say because I remember what that veteran was talking about when - in that scene. And I think that's a very good point. Let's have a quick break. And we'll be right back with Erik Nelson, the director of Apocalypse '45.

Factual America midroll 22:19
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Matthew 22:38
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Erik Nelson, acclaimed director, producer and writer; you've got a filmography that we could spend the rest of the podcast, just listing. But today we're talking about Apocalypse '45. Coming soon, what was it May 27th? And for those that - we have a lot of listeners in the US and so that's Memorial Day weekend. So, we were talking about this incredible archival footage that you've - the National Archives gave you access to and that you've restored lovingly. But was there sound with the footage?

Erik Nelson 23:01
May 27th, yes. No. And that, like The Cold Blue, that was very challenging. All of the sound in the film was laid in. Our sound designer, David Hughes, I didn't know this when we started working together, but it turns out he's a serious guy, and the film he did before The Cold Blue, which he did was Black Panther. He was the sound designer of that film. So, he has an incredible ear and an access to an incredible library of materials. So, I think he's slums working with me, but he did an extraordinary job along with our editor Paul Marengo, who did a lot of the sound editing as well. So, every bit of sound, and then it's wedded with the music from our composer Mark Leggett, so it's 360 degree designed to be seen and heard in a big theater. And I haven't spoken to Discovery, yet, but assuming theatres just starting to open again, we're hoping we can have some big screen showings in big venues because this film is designed to be seen on the biggest screen possible, whether it's in a movie theater or on your home screen. And that's what's great again about a streaming service, no annoying commercials. You just turn it up and turn it up and go.

Matthew 23:17
Yes, I look forward to seeing this on a big screen. I can also attest to the fact that on a laptop with a pair of headphones it works as well also but I can only imagine and that's another thing that struck me was, you know, so obviously read the blurb I know there's this footage that's never been seen and it's been restored. And then but then to also hear the sound that came with it which I thought was quite, quite effective. How do you go about assembling the story because you've got this footage. And then...

Erik Nelson 25:01
Well, you know, there's two tracks, there was the footage, which I knew and I knew what we had. And I'm enough of a military historian that I knew kind of the sequence, it was clear that it should be told chronologically but in chapters to fit the footage. And then I did with my colleague, Peter Hankoff, we, the two of us, just as crew of two, drove - went across the country in four separate trips to interview the guys, they don't come to you, you go to them: old age homes, their homes, hollers in West Virginia. And because I knew in the back of my mind what the footage was, and I knew what I wanted them to talk about, which was less about, tell me what you did in your buddy's name. It was what was it like, take me there. So, I was very precise in the hour and a half, we really couldn't tax them much longer than an hour and a half. But once I had that interview, I went back and organized the - did a sound script and to sort of chunk the two together and what went - it really, honestly, once the final transcript was done to a first draft, edit script, it probably took two days, tops, to do. And I would say 70% of the original script is the movie just sort of fell together very easily.

Matthew 26:15
Wow. That's amazing. Now, how do you go about doing a casting call, if you will, for 95 year old vets? I mean....

Erik Nelson 26:23
Well, Peter, Peter was the casting director, if you will. First off, there's not many of them. We've lost now of the 24 people in the film, we've lost six of them since we filmed last year. But I knew I needed certain people, I needed people who had experienced kamikazes from the receiving end. I knew we had this extraordinary footage of B29s and P51s over Japan. So, we went after some people there. And we knew we had Okinawa and we were lucky enough to stumble our first shoot. Even before we were officially greenlit, there was a reunion at the New Orleans World War Two Museum of the Iwo Jima Marine Division, the Fifth Marine Division. So, we were able to do 11 interviews in one day at that reunion. And that was a long - I had to fly home to California that night. So, that was a long day.

Matthew 27:13
And were they eager to tell their stories?

Erik Nelson 27:17
Yeah, I think so. I think they're eager to tell the stories. But I think some of them realized pretty quickly that I was hunting different game than they were used to in the interviews. But there was never a reaction against it. I'm familiar enough with the stories and I have a - such a deep and abiding respect for what they did, I tried not to ask stupid questions. And I could be precise enough. And because I knew once we got going, I knew what a lot of the answers would be. For instance, we talked about the, quote, 'Greatest Generation'. I know for a fact having done The Cold Blue that almost not a single member of the greatest generation thinks they're a member of the greatest generation. They think it's Matt, it's David McCullough, hype. They just think we had a job to do, and we did it. We were tough, tough kids who came out of the depression. And for us getting in the army, having three squares a day and good clothes was an upgrade. And that's something that I tried to reflect in the film. Now, were they a self-sacrifice - you know, they were a different generation. And I think that's what we say in the film. They were a different generation.

Matthew 28:26
You know, as you said, there's a variety of opinions. They're concerned about what's happening today. It's not just one; I think at least two or three say something about well, it was both, you know, all religions or Democrats and Republicans working together.

Erik Nelson 28:42
Yeah. There was a strong - and I asked those questions deliberately. I mean, I did the interviews in October of '19, through February of 2020, with the election and the craziness coming, but any sentient human being knew that this fall was going to be a metaphorical bloodbath. I didn't know it'd become a literal bloodbath in January, but the film had long since been delivered. But I wanted to touch on that because I wanted the film to be relevant to America today. And one would think that a film that's about World War combat in the Pacific theater and World War Two is not relevant. And I really disagree. This film, in its own way, is a political statement by not being a political statement, if that makes any sense.

Matthew 29:25
Yeah, I think so. And I think, I mean, I recall one of them says, he can't understand, you know, because from the American standpoint, I have to always remember I'm living in the UK where World War Two was a lot longer than it was for the US. But, you know, for the - for most Americans, World War Two was, what? 40 - December 41 to September of...

Erik Nelson 29:48
... 45. And the war didn't come home. In England, you know, I don't know how many multiple 1000s were killed all through 1945 with V2 rockets. It was a much more immediate thing. The United States never experienced that war firsthand except for these guys and their comrades in Europe.

Matthew 30:08
But as one of them, I think, says, you know, we had this war beginnings and ends and then what we were in Vietnam for like 16 years or something; you know, they don't - these long protracted wars they don't understand...

Erik Nelson 30:20
Well, there was a definite - it was the quote, good war; it was a war that had a clear beginning, clear bad guys, and a clear ending. And we prevailed. You know, there's a lot of ambiguity and a lot of things you know, we talk about the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki because you have to, but again, it's their words, not mine. And we have one I don't think I'm breaking reality since the film starts with it. We have a Hiroshima survivor beginning and taking us through Hiroshima. So, you know, there is ambiguities. But it was a more clear-cut conflict.

Matthew 30:59
You have a great press pack, by the way. And you have great quotes from all the 24, who you interviewed. And Ittsei Nakagawa was a - I mean, he starts off the film singing this folk song, which is from El Cerrito, California. I've been to El Cerrito -

Erik Nelson 31:19
Right above Berkeley.

Matthew 31:19
Yeah, I've - friends of mine. I've lost touch with but yeah, I've spent a week in El Cerrito. But, a Japanese-American who happened to get stuck in Japan for the war and since survives Nagasaki -

Erik Nelson 31:34
Hiroshima.

Matthew 31:34
Hiroshima, yeah, Hiroshima. I mean, that's amazing. And then he ends up meeting Frank Oppenheimer, you know, I mean...

Erik Nelson 31:41
Right, brother of Robert Oppenheimer, who says that, you know, we've now opened - the genie is out and - out of the bottle and can't be put back in. And yeah, his experiences are, you know, we're so fortunate to have him a part of the film, because in a strange way, he balances things, we would have been wide open for criticism, if we just had American vets talking about killing Japs, which is pretty much the way they talk; again, they don't pull any punches, and you're not going to ask them to. But by having his presence in the film, it balances things off to some degree.

Matthew 32:14
I mean, that's an - you raise the subject in the film, which is - you had to; you would have been ridiculous if you hadn't about whether it may, whether it was right or not, not so much that you mean, but there's this discussion about was it, you know, they have the different views about whether it was right to drop the bomb or not right to drop the bomb. And...

Erik Nelson 32:34
Again, no one cares about my opinion, but in hindsight, everything's different. People didn't know the bomb was going to work when they first dropped it. People didn't know what it did to people. They'd only tested it two weeks before, three weeks before. So, what we now know about the impact of the atomic bomb, no one knew when they dropped the first one. Had they known they still would have dropped it, by the way, I'm just saying. And there's an argument that had they not dropped it, someone was going to drop it. And it was only the magnitude of the catastrophe and Hiroshima, Nagasaki, that literally stopped any further weapons from being discharged. They were like poison gas. They're taboo. They weren't dropped. So, you know, and the other point is, if you weren't there, and you weren't training to do the invasion of Japan, it's - they certainly have a different perspective on the end of the war that most likely or not saved their lives. So, you know, you can take all things, you know, but the key word here I think is hindsight.

Matthew 33:40
I mean, I thought that was - I had not heard that line 'Golden Gate in '48; breadline in '49'. I mean...

Erik Nelson 33:46
Oh no, they - Operation Olympic and Coronet, I think. Coronet was the first one or Olympic was; I forget the name of the operation, but November '45, was the invasion of Kyushu, where hundreds and hundreds - hundreds of 1000s of Japanese soldiers were good to go with a massive amount of kamikazes. And they knew exactly when we were supposed to come. And then they were going to execute the second phase of the operation on Honshu, which is the main island of Tokyo in March of '46. And if the Japanese had dug in, like they dug in at Iwo Jima and Okinawa, the war absolutely would have gone on to '47 and '48. It would have ended with literally the extermination of most of the population of Japan. And that's not - I have the plans. You know, I physically have the - this massive 900 page type written plan that I got 30 years ago when I did my other project of that invasion. And if you leaf through these plans, it's - this was serious. This was no joke. This was no drill as they'd say at Pearl Harbor.

Matthew 34:49
It's a very interesting perspective. I'm even remembering from my university days. I mean, it was still very much kind of - believe me I read a lot of stuff saying how horrible it was that the US dropped the bomb and these sort of things but I do remember talking to my granddad about it and he was in California training to be a part of that invasionairy force and he would say, 'Well, if it hadn't been for that, you know, who knows what have, you know, happened'.

Erik Nelson 35:22
Well, Paul Fussell has written a bunch of books, I forget - Wartime, Great War and Modern Memory, a terrific writer; Princeton University professor. He wrote a book called Thank God for the Atomic Bomb. And his point was he was in Europe, he was in the Battle of the Bulge was one of those guys. And when that war ended in May, he was shipped back to the United States, refitted and was on his way to fight again. And he said I literally wept when I heard the news, wept tears of joy, because I knew I was going to live and my friends were going to live, too.

Matthew 35:58
But then - yeah, and then - but at the same time you do - I think the film does show the aftermath.

Erik Nelson 36:06
Absolutely. And the aftermath was documented by army. Interesting sidebar of the film history is, I mentioned Gregg Toland at the top. The gentleman who filmed the Hiroshima footage was a Japanese cinematographer named Harry Mamura. Harry Mamura came to Hollywood as a son of a rich Japanese; he wanted to get into film so in 1929, he came to Hollywood to learn the trade of being a cinematographer and his teacher? Gregg Toland. He went back to Japan in the late '30s. He shot Japanese propaganda films, just like john Ford was doing; worked with Kurosawa. And then when the war ended, they were looking for a cinematographer who grew up in Hiroshima. Guess what - Harry Mamura got the call. So, when I was putting that sequence together, I noticed the footage was - this is before I knew any of this, by the way - I noticed the footage was really, you know, they had dollies and cranes and they were trying - it was shot that the street cars - so I cut the material the way that I felt the cinematographer wanted me to. And then I noticed on the slate 'Mamura', and then I discovered the Mamura connection.

Matthew 37:19
That's amazing. You can even make that up. I mean...

Erik Nelson 37:22
You can't even make it up.

Matthew 37:24
And then there's one scene where I thought he was gonna - you're gonna get squeezed by two street cars. I mean they put it...

Erik Nelson 37:29
I just let the footage go. I was really flattered. I forget the gentleman's name, but he's - Ken Burns was his guy's lead editor, and he is an editor and he just loved that - he loved that footage. And I'm sad to say he asked, well, how long did it take for you to do that? And I said, about four hours. It did. It literally, we sort of threw it together in one day, because the footage wanted to be cut a certain way. It was like, well, let's take all the dolly shots and all the street car shots and mix them together. Okay. Are we done yet?

Matthew 38:02
It's excellent. I mean, another - we talked about Ittsei Nakagawa. There's, I mean, all of them were, you know, as you said, unfortunately, but it is - they are in their mid to late 90s. Six have already passed away since you filmed. But there's this corporal Hershel Woody Williams.

Erik Nelson 38:24
Medal of Honor winning.

Matthew 38:27
Yeah, that - I thought, I mean, it's not even the perspect, but I what I remember is him saying something about those four hours changed his life forever.

Erik Nelson 38:37
Well, he didn't even know. Yeah, he had four hours of crazy insane bravery. You know, you don't know what you're going to do until the call happens. And he'd already been in combat. So he wasn't a newbie. But he did. He was no more - and he'd be the first to admit it - no more heroic than countless people at Iwo Jima. But he happened to be watched; people saw what he did. And when it came down to medal issuing time, he was honored for it. And he absolutely deserves that medal, incredibly, but he would be the first to admit, so did so many other of my buddies who either didn't come home alive, or there was no one there to see what they did.

Matthew 39:18
And in terms of this, as I said, we're not going to go - I mean, it's chronological; tells us the story. This is a thing you've pointed out is probably the most brutal part of the war, certainly in terms of the Pacific campaign, on both sides, and I think this film brings a lot of humanity to this, that sometimes is possibly lacking. I mean, what is the story you are, you know, besides telling the story of those last several months of the Second World War in the Pacific? I mean, what is the - what is the story you're trying to tell and that you want listeners, you know, viewers...

Erik Nelson 40:04
It's less of a story that I try to tell that what I'm trying to construct. And I'm trying to construct as a time machine, you step in the Wayback Machine in the beginning, you go from black and white into color, and you're in it, you're in the middle of it. And it takes you back to 1945 in a way, you've never seen it before without any directorial flourishes, without any barriers between you and the material, save the voices of guys who were there, too; who in a year or two won't be around anymore. So, if you think about it, the fact that we were able to use this new film technology to restore the footage, and be able to talk to the guys who were there about what that footage says, will never happen again. If this film hadn't been made last year, it literally would never have been made.

Matthew 40:53
And I agree with you, as well, about the time capsule side, you know, time machine element of this because you do feel, I did feel transported because the thing, I mean that one thing personally, if I may add, one thing that really struck me was, you know, these, I don't know, personally, I always have this view that people from the Second World War, you know, from the early part of the 20th century look different, or whatever these people look, I mean, this could have been filmed yesterday, except for the - you can tell from the quality, just the way the film looks that it's obviously not, it's not digital, originally, but there's something about it the, you know, these cameramen got, like really good close ups of people.

Erik Nelson 41:35
And they shot close ups. And, well, like I mentioned with the Harry Mamura footage, the reason we could edit it so quickly, there were certain sequences where you can see what the photographer was shooting: okay, tight shot of machine gun barrel, shot of face, perspective shot; you know, we shot the footage, we wanted to honor the photographers who in the heat of the moment, were building sequences. And if they filmed a traumatized guy holding a bunny, rest assured they felt that was of interest. And I tried to go with their - again, it's a strange combination of complete micromanagement of every frame and image, and letting it just kind of flow the way the material wants to flow. So, it's sort of a balance when you make a film like this to be all over it, and then just to let the material take you where it needs to go.

Matthew 42:25
And as you said, I mean, as you said, the film's a tribute to these among many things, but is certainly a tribute to these cameramen, and all many who will always remain unsung. But who, in the heat of war, did some amazing, amazing work, didn't they?

Erik Nelson 42:41
And they did it to bring this back. I mean, I'm sure if you told - I was very conscious, not only - one of the reasons that Discovery released the film theatrically was we promised the guys that it would be in theaters, it would be visible on the 75th anniversary, and they would be able to see it. They know there's a ticking clock. So, when I mentioned kind of the odd release pattern of the film, it came out briefly in August, September. But that was as much for the guys as it was for any, you know, there's not a lot of money to be made there. It was really just because we promised them we were going to do this, and when we made those promises, COVID hadn't descended yet. By God, we were going to get it out, finish it and show it to them. And we did. And I'm very pleased that we were able to and that Discovery, let that happen. And now we're in the position where the rest of the world can see it on May 27th.

Matthew 43:35
Now, we've already discussed this briefly. But now looking back on this, and you've interviewed them, and you've put this film together and other films. They don't like to use this term, 'Greatest Generation'. Maybe you don't, either. But what do you think of this generation?

Erik Nelson 43:53
As I say, I think honestly, I think that if we were faced with an existential threat, like Hitler, I would say Nazism but we are faced with that threat, and we're not exactly passing the test, but I digress. But an alien invasion or something that was just clearly beyond the pale, I'd like to think that the 18 year olds in America would rise to the occasion. And thanks to their ability and video games, they're probably better shots than Woody Williams. So, I don't think that there's a quantum change in the DNA of human beings since 1945. But there is - there was a matrix that created that era in that time. And if a film like this forces you to examine the matrix and weigh it and make these - have this conversation that we're having, I feel we succeeded in what we're doing.

Matthew 44:44
Okay. Well, I think we're - actually it's hard to believe but we're coming, we're starting to come in to the end of our time together, Eric, but maybe, while I've got you here, I can ask you so what's it like to work with Werner Herzog?

Erik Nelson 45:03
Oh boy, well, I like to say, you know, if you've seen The Mandalorian on Disney, you know, that's him. You know, it's pretty much an accurate depiction. He's a little nicer in The Mandalorian. You know, he's a little more easy to work with, but no. Let's just say he, he upped my game. And I think I lowered his game. And I think it was good for both of us that that process happened.

Matthew 45:31
You know, it's always curious because we've - I've been fortunate to interview people like yourself and others who've worked with, besides your own careers, have worked with some amazing names in the field. And it's always interesting to get that sort of perspective on that.

Erik Nelson 45:45
Werner, you know, because he came, I had not done a theatrical documentary before working, I came out of television, which is a whole different communications bandwidth. So doing Grizzly Man, which is our first film together, it indoctrinated me in a different rhythm. But Grizzly Man, ironically, you know, that was the making of another project; it was the making of the film Treadwell really was making; we used 100 hours of Timothy Treadwell's footage of bears, we only screen 10 of it, because we're only looking for footage documenting the making of process. And I'm happy to say that we're putting out very soon - it's finished - a three hour - the movies Treadwell wanted to make; a three hour amazing nature show. So, in some ways, Grizzly Man's the prequel or the making of this film, and they both sort of exist in the same universe and the only thing they share is the soundtrack for both is Richard Thompson - the great Richard Thompson who also scored The Cold Blue. He's our in-house composer, if you will. So, we're very lucky. You speak about working with giants, to be able to work with some of that skill set has been an honor.

Matthew 46:58
Well, that's, that's amazing. I mean, I was gonna ask you what's next for you? Sounds like you've got that. Any other big projects?

Erik Nelson 47:05
Well, I wish I could talk about it, but there's another sort of archive driven project that I'll just hint it has something to do with The Beatles, but it's not what Peter Jackson is up to. Just say it's in the Beatles universe. And it's something we're trying to put together now for next - a year from now. And there's some other stuff in the fire. You know, with documentaries, you have to be so close to the vest, because so much of them are subject or topic driven, you know, you can't really sort of - you don't want to let the cat out of the proverbial bag.

Matthew 47:42
Yeah, I do a little work with a documentary film, the people who sponsor this podcast, and it's - I know where you come from on this one.

Erik Nelson 47:51
The Grizzly Diaries, diary of the grizzly man, that's official that's going to be three hours; Shout! Factory is putting it out. It's gonna be out sometime. I mean, it's we've finished remastering, the widescreen scoring, they're done. It's just they're on final approach at this point. So that can be announced. It hasn't been announced. But it's coming.

Matthew 48:10
Okay. We've actually I forget what film it was, we had another Shout! Factory film that we discussed. I mean you've, you know, obviously, done a lot with archive, and certainly, that's sort of why I asked you the question that how much of this was done pre-COVID, because as soon as COVID hit that was everything, you know, seminars, online Zoom seminars about how to do archive and things like that, you know, for young filmmakers, or maybe not so young filmmakers. I mean, is this - do you think this is going to be the trend even more archive heavy docs?

Erik Nelson 48:49
Well, archive, archive is only as good as what it archives, right? So, you know, obviously, there's new tools in the toolkit to restore and make archive footage look good. But it's what you do with it that counts. And I had this particular genre after Grizzly Man, into A Gray State, into The Cold Blue, and Apocalypse, and into this new hopeful Beatles project that was on its own track, irrespective of COVID. So, all COVID did, I was just lucky enough that it didn't slow us down; you know, we were able to keep Apocalypse '45 going, because I didn't need any additional shooting. I didn't need to do interviews, but people are managing to pick stuff up and things will light back up again. So, you know, I think it's not a function of the material, it's how you use the material in your approach. And I'm fairly, you know, my style as a filmmaker, dare I say is fairly rigorous, and I have a certain way of approaching it and a philosophy behind how I use archive. And this concept of constructing a time machine is certainly something I'm very conscious of: is to try to put you back into the moment, into the era with as little distraction as possible.

Matthew 50:07
Well, I think you've definitely achieved that. So, thank you so much for making this film. One last thing I mean, if people want to just follow you what's the best way? We'll put things in this show notes.

Erik Nelson 50:20
Google my name and spell it correctly with a K - Erik Nelson at Creative Differences, and it should take you to our website. So, it's simple as that. But cdtvfilms.com. But a simple google should. And I'm not saying all the stuff that comes up in Google I want people to see but if you want to look around, I'm sure you can find the appropriate stuff. And let's see, my films - I did a film about Harlan Ellison, Dreams with Sharp Teeth, that's on Amazon Prime. And I did an insane dinosaur animated film, narrated by, wait for it, Werner Herzog with Discovery called Dinotasia. That's also on Amazon Prime. And A Gray State was just on Netflix and just when conspiracy culture was reaching its apex and everybody was talking obsessed with Q Anon the contract lapsed, so it just dropped off Netflix in December, much to my chagrin, so we're trying to get that back up somewhere so people can see it; though it's on Apple iTunes or whatever. But, you know, the stuffs out there. But thank you Jeff Bezos to keep my Harlan Ellison and who doesn't want to see an animated dinosaur movie narrated by Werner Herzog?!

Matthew 51:31
Hey, I've got children. I think - children who are dinosaur mad. I think they might be - it might be one for them.

Erik Nelson 51:37
Something for dad and something for lad!

Matthew 51:39
Yeah, there you go! Well, thank you so much, Erik. It's been a joy having you on; really appreciate it.

Erik Nelson 51:46
It's been a pleasure. And I - this is a great series and I wish the best of luck to you and Alamo. Well, thank you so much, and best of luck with you. And yes, we'll put some of these - some links to these films in the show notes. I look forward to catching up with your filmography. So just to remind our listeners again, we've been chatting with Erik Nelson, the director of Apocalypse '45 coming out May 27th on Discovery. I highly recommend. It's certainly not your typical World War Two documentary. Thanks to - a big shout out here to This is Distorted studios, here in Leeds, England. Also, Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager who ensures we continue getting such great guests onto the show, like Erik. And do - please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family. wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.

Factual America Outro 52:45
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter @alamopictures, be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk.

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Apocalypse '45: The Harrowing Reality of the Pacific War

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Apocalypse '45: The Harrowing Reality of the Pacific War

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