Amityville: Origins of the Horror Story
On November 13th 1974, Ronald DeFeo shot his family dead in Amityville, New York. Not long after he was convicted of the killings, the Lutz family moved into the DeFeos’ former home. They did not stay long. After just 28 days, they fled, claiming to have been driven out by paranormal activity.
The Lutz family’s experience formed the basis of The Amityville Horror. Released in 1979, it went on to spawn a seemingly endless number of sequels, prequels, and derivatives: over 40 to date.
In his docu-series, Amityville: An Origin Story, director Jack Riccobono explores what happened to both the DeFeo and Lutz families. Matthew Sherwood discovers in conversation with Jack that what took place did not happen in isolation. As Jack says, the 1970s was a dark time in America. There was fear in the air, abuse behind closed doors, an increase in drug addiction, and strange new belief systems sprouting up.
Jack takes Matthew through the mystery of the silent rifle used in the murders, and the question of why the Lutz family moved into the DeFeo home: did they do it for commercial gain? Was it a hoax? He and Matthew look at the question marks over George Lutz’s character as well as George’s role in the perpetuation of the Amityville story: he never stopped pushing it.
Greed, family dysfunction, sensationalism, the truth vs media misrepresentation. The origin of the Amityville horror is much closer to us than we realise.
“I was drawn to this possibility of sort of this cross-genre exploration, and I really felt like there was something unique about this series...you had this true crime component, but then you also had this paranormal story, and then you had this sort of larger cultural landscape that we could explore.” – Jack Riccobono
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for Amityville: An Origin Story
02:05 – Matthew Sherwood introduces Jack Riccobono, the director of Amityville: An Origin Story
03:46 – Jack explains what Amityville: An Origin Story is about
05:36 – What made The Amityville Horror successful
07:21 – George Lutz and the Church of England exorcist
08:00 – Amityville as a story of greed and family dysfunction
09:23 – The DeFeo murders
13:10 – The Lutzs move into the DeFeo’s home
15:43 – Amityville after the Lutzs
18:03 – Jack on his desire to ‘humanise’ the DeFeo’s story
22:20 – A Traumatic Childhood: The effect of Amityville on Christopher Quaratino (née Lutz) and his siblings
30:33 – George Lutz: Philosophy and Conspiracy
33:26 – How Jack became involved in the making of Amityville: An Origin Story
35:54 – The Unholy Trinity of horror films
37:20 – The use of sound and location in the making of Amityville: An Origin Story
41:24 – What’s next for Jack
Resources:
Amityville: An Origin Story
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Matthew Hamachek
More from Factual America:
Investigating the Octopus Murders: An American Conspiracy
American Nightmare: Unravelling Crimes That Never Were
Something Ghostly This Way Comes: The Enfield Poltergeist
Transcript for Factual America Episode 156: Amityville: Origins of the Horror Story
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:05)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. The Amityville Horror is one of the most iconic films of the genre. But at its heart is a paranormal conspiracy rooted in grisly real life murders. To discuss this, and the people who were greatly affected by those events nearly 50 years ago, is Jack Riccobono, the acclaimed director. Join us as Jack and I relive the gritty, early 1970s, the events that happened in Amityville, New York, and the ensuing cultural phenomenon and industry that is the Amityville Horror. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:48
Jack Riccobono, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Jack Riccobono 00:52
Going well. Thanks for having me, Matthew.
Matthew Sherwood 00:55
Yeah, it's great to have you on. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we are talking about Amityville: An Origin Story. This released last year, actually, in the US, and I guess it's available on multiple streamers there, but for us here in the UK, we've only just had the privilege of being able to watch it. It's released recently on BBC iPlayer, and that's where you can find it in the UK and the related territory. So, Jack, it's great to have you on. Usually, the way we start is just, you know, maybe it's kind of boring, but we ask you: What is Amityville: An Origin Story all about? Maybe you can give us a little synopsis?
Jack Riccobono 01:36 (03:46)
Sure, absolutely. So, this is a four-part documentary series that is really the first kind of elevated look at all of the sort of crazy, cultural stew of the 1970s that gave rise to the Amityville Horror phenomenon. And that was, you know, this big horror film that came out in 1979. It grossed, you know, over $80 million in the US and went on to, you know, tour the world internationally. And then it spun off, over the years, more than forty sequels, prequels, DIY projects, you know, it's had this kind of long tail in the horror history world, but it also has this true crime component, because although the story is sort of based on the true story of the Lutz family, that it was haunted out of this house, this other family, the DeFeo family that lived there before them, was murdered in the house. And so, it's got this kind of mix of paranormal and true crime genre. And we kind of look at all of the different factors in the 70s that kind of led to this becoming such a big hit in 1979 and beyond.
Matthew Sherwood 02:49 (05:36)
Yes, I think that language you use is very appropriate. What did you say? Cultural stew, or something like that. I think it is - yeah, and as someone - I mean, as someone who was - I was a kid but I remember when it came out, and it scared the bejebus out of me every time the adverts - ads ran on TV. I mean, this thing was just an amazing cultural phenomenon, and still is. And came, you know, late 70s, so is after this wave of cultural - you know, horror classics of the period: Exorcist, Halloween, others came out. But do you think this - okay, we can talk a little bit more about how based on true stories it is, but do you think being at least loosely based on a true story made - is what also helped make it so successful?
Jack Riccobono 03:39
Absolutely. I mean, this was really the first time that the family that was involved in these events went on a press tour during the release of the film, and, you know, they went on Good Morning America and talked about their experiences. And so, it really wrapped this, you know, Hollywood horror film in this patina of truth. And it was really kind of the first time that that had happened from a marketing perspective. So, American International was the original studio that put it out, it became an MGM title. But, you know, that was really kind of like a marketing coup to kind of have the Lutzs on board; you know, although, again, they went on and said that these things really happened to them. And they had written a book with an author, you know, based off of their experiences that came out in 1977, that was also a best seller. So, that kind of laid the groundwork for the movie. So, people were kind of aware of their story, but, you know, having them out there on the news shows, you know, and on the circuit kind of pumping up the film - and they also they came to the US - I mean to the UK - and they also interviewed on BBC, we show some of that in the series. So, they went on an international press tour, and it really kind of gave rise to that whole kind of horror genre of based on a true story, because even though The Exorcist was sort of loosely based on a true story, you didn't have that added aspect of the real people kind of going out there.
Matthew Sherwood 05:09 (07:21)
Right. I mean, it's interesting - point I was watching it - I think it's, like, Episode Three or something; one of the episodes where basically, you show a church in South Hampstead, in London, and I was like, I know - I used to live around the corner from there, you know, they actually saw a Church of England exorcist. I didn't know Church of England exorcists existed, but, you know, there they were. And...
Jack Riccobono 05:28
Well, it's more than that. I mean, George actually goes - George Lutz goes to that Anglican priest to receive an exorcism.
Matthew Sherwood 05:37
Right.
Jack Riccobono 05:38
So, you know, he travelled to the UK to receive an exorcism after fleeing the house.
Matthew Sherwood 05:45 (08:00)
And it's not just - I mean, I guess it's not just that initial wave. I mean, certainly, George, he's sell, sell, sell, basically, he's always promoting the whole - the franchise, isn't he? At least his part of it.
Jack Riccobono 06:04
Yeah, I mean, you know, that's kind of part of what drew me to the project, is there are these different layers to it. Certainly, there's the paranormal layer, there's a true crime layer, but it's also a story of greed, and it's also a story of family dysfunction. You know, and George Lutz definitely took the lead when it came to helping to push the story out. And he continued to sort of try to repackage it in various ways throughout the years, although really, you know, the story got completely out of their hands. And in that sense, it's also kind of a bit of a commentary on the media and how kind of TV, and every - you know, once people got their hooks into this story, it wasn't the Lutz's story anymore. It was out there, and it just kept rolling and rolling all the way to today.
Matthew Sherwood 06:56 (09:23)
Yeah. But as you pointed out - I mean, and it is, indeed, based on actual events. We probably - I think it's now been so long, and I think there's been so many spin-offs and everything, maybe people forget about it, and many will have been born after these events happened and the original film came out. But if we're thinking chronologically, and there's that true crime element to it, so just, you know, maybe walk us through briefly - I mean, there was these tragic DeFeo murders in 1974, is that right?
Jack Riccobono 07:28
Yeah. And I think, you know, that's the thing is that I think most people obviously associate Amityville with the first horror film and with the Lutz's story of this sort of paranormal sensations that happened to them in the house, but the story is really infused with this very dark energy of this horrible murder of six out of seven family members, the DeFeos, that happened in 1974. And their bodies were discovered, they were each shot in their beds under mysterious circumstances, none of the neighbours reported to have heard any of the gunshots. And there was only one surviving member of the family, Ronnie DeFeo, the eldest son. And this was a really big deal. I mean, in 1974, this is - Amityville is a affluent suburb of New York City. So, you know, this was in a kind of period of the 'white flight' and the sort of suburban renaissance of people thinking of these areas as very kind of safe places to live and kind of fleeing the city. And so, to have this mass murder on this, you know, beautiful street, in this really kind of amazing American Dream House, it tapped into just a lot of fears and anxieties that people had at the time that this could happen there.
Matthew Sherwood 08:55
And the thing is, it's one of those where - I mean, I guess the case is closed, and since, you know, Ronnie DeFeo was convicted, and it's, you know, you discuss a lot of the different theories about what happened. But as you say, there's also this mystery, it's - there's just some things that just don't quite add up. I mean, he was obviously involved, but how, you know, they were on two different floors, and he's using a really loud gun, and no one seems to have woken up. And, you know, it's horrific; it's very graphic, you know, what happened, but it is - so, that just leads to all this sort of, as things - as humans are want to do, all this conjecture about other things, doesn't it; you know, like, is the mafia involved? Or, you know, that kind of stuff.
Jack Riccobono 09:44
Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think that people just really couldn't get their heads around - I think at the end of the day, yes, there were some details that were confusing like the fact that the bodies were on two different floors and they were in bed as if they were sleeping, and they didn't wake up even though he was using this .35 calibre Marlin hunting rifle, like, a big gun, that would be very loud if it was fired inside of a building. So, you know, and they did a toxicology report, you know, didn't show that the family members were drugged. So, there was this question of like, how could one person, you know, really carry out this crime. But, I mean, I think it goes deeper to that, which is just how horrifying it is, you know, that someone would murder their entire family, including their sisters and their brothers; you know, his youngest sibling was only nine years old, you know, when the murders took place, and, of course, his mother and father; so, I think that just the darkness of the act, you know, and trying to make sense of that is also what kind of opened up the door. It's like, there must be an explanation, you know, behind this, how could somebody do this?
Matthew Sherwood 10:54 (13:10)
Exactly. And so, then that brings us to the - so, back to the Lutzs. So, George and Kathy, they move in with her three children from a previous marriage, just little over a year later, right, and they stay for twen...
Jack Riccobono 11:10
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 11:11
... you know, it's not that long between the two events. I mean, again, you know, there might be some listeners who don't know the story, and we don't need to rehash everything, but basically, they stay for 28 days, but then they just come - literally run out of the house, claiming that there's all this paranormal activities going on, and their claims become a source of controversy that lasts till this day, right?
Jack Riccobono 11:36
Yes, absolutely. So, Ronnie is convicted in, like, November of 1975. And then within a few weeks, the Lutzs move into the house. And so, you know, obviously, there's some question of like, how much did they know about what happened in the house, and people, you know, immediately wonder, like, who would move into a murder house like that? I mean, obviously, that happens, but like, so soon after. And not only did they move into the house, but they also bought some of the furniture of the DeFeos, including the bed frames where some of them had been murdered, you know; so, I mean, it's pretty grisly kind of choice, which makes you kind of wonder, you know, what's going on there. But yeah, George Lutz was recently married to Kathy. And so, he was the stepfather to her three kids, Danny, Christopher, and Missy. And Christopher, the middle son, is, you know, heavily featured in the series. It's the first time that he's really sat for a long form interview. He was seven years old during that 28 day period. And, you know, he has shared a little bit over the years here and there, but this is really the first time that he goes through his own experience in the house during those 28 days, and what the family feels they went through and he, you know, he maintains to this day that they did have a legitimate experience. Even though he says that in the book, in the movies, it's been exaggerated, or that his stepfather George maybe exaggerated details in certain ways. He still maintains that something paranormal did occur to them in that house.
Matthew Sherwood 13:21 (15:43)
Okay, I do want to talk about this and this new ground you cover that as others and other treatments, other - whatever TV series haven't. But I think we're gonna give our listeners and viewers a quick break. The other thing I was gonna say is, you wonder about the Lutzs moving in. And I wonder about the people who moved in after the Lutzs! Cromartys or whatever they are, you know, it's like, I don't know about that. I know the price came down by about $30,000, I think, but anyway, so we'll be right back with Jack - go ahead.
Jack Riccobono 13:55
I was just gonna say to this day, every halloween and even beyond every halloween, people are still going by that house on a regular basis. So, I mean, you know, again, it depends on your definition of what it means to be cursed but certainly having people, you know, get married on your lawn, you know, do satanic rituals in your driveway. I mean, this stuff is, like, still happening right now.
Matthew Sherwood 14:18
I mean, you do - you feature a little bit of that in one of your episodes but it's just like all these selfies and stuff people take in front of the house, even though it's been remodelled. They've taken out some of the iconic features. They've even changed the address, didn't they? I mean...
Jack Riccobono 14:34
They tried to - yeah, they changed the address. They fogged it on Google Maps. But, you know, all of these things in some ways, it just adds, you know, just adds, and especially in the Internet era, you know, it just - that gave the story a whole new life with amateur investigators who want to go out to the house and investigate for themselves. So, it's hard to see this phenomenon sort of ever really being laid to rest.
Matthew Sherwood 14:59
Right, and it's - I mean, and now the term Amityville no longer means a little town in the south shore of Long Island, right. You just say 'Amityville', which is why you didn't have to go into much more detail in your title. You just say 'Amityville', and everyone knows what you're talking about. So, they must - I mean, I imagine housing values in Amityville are probably - well, I did see what it sold for the other - a few years ago. They're not doing too badly.
Jack Riccobono 15:24
I mean, it's still a...
Matthew Sherwood 15:25
... but, you know...
Jack Riccobono 15:26
it's a beaut - it's Ocean Avenue; you know, it's a really - it's one of the most beautiful streets in that part of Long Island. And it has these old Dutch colonials, you know, that are built along the Amityville river, so they have a boat slip in the back. I mean, it's really - it's a beautiful, beautiful area. But yeah, it's - you know, there was controversy when the movie came out, because the town didn't want to show it, you know, in the town...
Matthew Sherwood 15:53
Right.
Jack Riccobono 15:53 (18:03)
... and, of course, there were a lot of people who were sort of upset that there was this trading off of the tragedy of the DeFeo family, which had happened still, you know, pretty recently. And so that, you know, that was something that we really wanted to do in this series is also try to really humanise the DeFeos, and bring them to life for people because in the Amityville kind of space, their story really has been kind of abused and misrepresented in so many different ways. And so, it seemed - it was important to us to try to get those details right, and to try to, you know, really bring them to life for people in a real way, and not in the sort of cartoonish way that you see, like in Amityville 2, for instance, which is sort of based on the DeFeos, loosely.
Matthew Sherwood 16:44
Right. And you track down - I mean, that's the thing, you track down these - their school - the children's school friends, and they're still around, and some of them still live, I think, on the street, I guess. So, that's - yeah, no, that was quite impressive - I mean, at least their memories, and how they and - you know, like you say, give this a - you know, make this real in terms of this family that's just become kind of a legend, really.
Jack Riccobono 17:16
Yeah, I mean, this, you know, this November, it will be 50 years since the original murders, you know, and so this was really kind of a, I think, a kind of last opportunity for, again, some of these people that grew up around this time that knew the DeFeos, that were friends with them, to be able to have their say, and yeah, we have, you know, Tommy Maher, who was a close friend of Ronnie DeFeo's, who again, has never sat for an interview before, and came, you know, to tell his story and speak about some things that people probably don't know. Because, again, that was, you know, that was part of my question, too, is sort of like everybody kind of hears of Amityville and sort of rolls their eyes and thinks they sort of heard it all before, you know, but, you know - and there have been other documentaries made about this topic. But I think we really wanted to try to be the definitive source in, again, a more elevated and thoughtful way to look at all of the cultural inputs, but then really also find these personal connections, and people who experience things firsthand. So that, you know, as a viewer, you can kind of judge for yourself, you know, what do you think about this.
Matthew Sherwood 18:26
Right. Alright, that does give me an opportunity to give our listeners and viewers a break. We'll be right back with Jack Riccobono, the director of Amityville: An Origin Story. Came out last year, available in North America on various streamers, and here in the UK, you can check it out on BBC iPlayer.
Factual America Midroll 18:47
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases, or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 19:05
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Jack Riccobono, the director of Amityville: An Origin Story, available on various streamers in North America, and you can find it on BBC iPlayer here in the UK. Jack, we've been - you know, we're talking about - well, the DeFeo family, the Lutzs in terms of this Amityville story, and this new, sort of the new ground you're covering, because as you say, this has had lots of treatments, a lot of discussions, books, all kinds of stuff, but you do cover new ground. You're talking about, you know, reaching out and meeting the people sort of last opportunity to meet with the people who actually knew the DeFeos, and were friends with them. You already mentioned George, formerly Lutz but he calls himself George Quaratino now. And you've already met...
Jack Riccobono 20:01
That's the father. But that's Christopher.
Matthew Sherwood 20:04
Oh, I'm sorry...
Jack Riccobono 20:05
George has passed away. But, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 20:07 (22:20)
Yeah. You know, it is Christopher, that's right. Christopher Quaratino. And, you know, I mean, you say something paranoid, but, you know, you spent a lot of time with him. It is very emotional for him, because he went through a lot. I think that's something we could also talk about, because I think that's maybe other ground that's not been covered, is about what the children really have had to go through in their lives. But - yeah, he says - but does he go into much - I mean, to this day, though, he is very adamant there was something paranormal, something otherworldly, going on, in those 28 days that they were in the house.
Jack Riccobono 20:44
Yeah. And Christopher has a very particular theory, or belief, about what it was that unlocked what happened to them in the house that has to do with his stepfather George, and I don't want to do any spoilers here, but again, this is really, you know, something that's kind of new in this show is sort of like looking at the impact that George had on his family. And part of the new ground that we break is this sort of research that we did into George's background, including his life prior to Kathy and his first marriage, which again, is not material that's really sort of ever been released publicly before. And it speaks to kind of the type of guy that George was, and also to the sort of secrets, you know, I mean, I think a lot of this is about internal family dynamics, and the secrets that people keep, and also, you know, an era in which abuse was happening behind closed doors; you know, I mean, this was sort of part of the cultural landscape, George was a veteran of Vietnam. This is, you know, an era in the early 70s, you know, a lot of people, they hear the 70s, and they think of like, disco and drugs, and, you know, kind of flashy kind of stuff. But, you know, the early 70s in America was a very dark period, okay. You have...
Matthew Sherwood 22:04
It was gritty.
Jack Riccobono 22:04
Nixon resigning...
Matthew Sherwood 22:06
Yeah, yeah.
Jack Riccobono 22:06
... you have the Vietnam War, you know, you have vets coming back from the war, you know, who are damaged and taking abuse out on their families, and a big increase in drug addiction. And then also, you have a kind of reaction to the swinging 60s where people are kind of going back to religiosity and a certain type of traditional values. I mean, the Roe v. Wade abortion decision is in 1973. So, you have these kind of big issues of kind of, like good and evil being played out in the public square. And then, you know, at home, you have, I think a lot of people who are trying to sort of deal with anxieties of the time. And part of that was also exploring kind of new belief systems, you know, and that's kind of what we look at in the show also, is what was George into, in this period of time.
Matthew Sherwood 23:01
Yeah, and as you say, we don't want to do any, you know, we don't need to go into too much detail or spoiler, but yeah, there's some interesting things he was into. I mean, he was, you know, possibly dabbling with the - well, not just possibly, we know he's dabbling with the occult, right. And yeah, so that's that bit where you talk about sort of the - what George Lutz was doing when he was supposed to be doing Transcendental Meditation, he might have been doing some adding - he might have been ad libbing a little bit, let's put it that way.
Jack Riccobono 23:33
Yeah, I mean, this was Christopher's, you know, take on it. And I think, you know, part of what we try to unpack is - the series is not, like, about trying to debunk things...
Matthew Sherwood 23:44
Right.
Jack Riccobono 23:44
... you know, one way or the other, or tell you what to believe, you know. We really are trying to explore all of these different layers. And if you're into the paranormal, and you see that in there, you know, I mean, that's fine. And I think that there's a space for that. But I think we also wanted to do is say, you know, there were human experiences here at the heart of this. And for Christopher, you know, you have this seven year old who is moved into this house where these murders took place, and the kids knew that the murders had happened in that house, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 24:18
... they even talked to him about it beforehand. I mean, I thought that was - I mean, as a parent myself, I found that a little odd.
Jack Riccobono 24:25
Me too. Yes. And I think it's like - you know, and Missy was even younger, his younger sister was only five years old. So, you know, you think about these little kids, you know, in this murder house, and you know, what could have been going through their minds with a sort of new stepfather. And then after that, you know, is just a few weeks after they fled the house, they wanted to sort of try to cleanse the house and they invited the Warrens. This, you know, this couple that popularised, you know, paranormal investigation in the 60s and 70s. And The Conjuring horror series is based off of them. So, the Lutzs invited Ed and Lorraine Warren to come into the house and do a seance in March of 1976, to try to kind of cleanse the house so that maybe they could move back in. But instead, Lorraine said that it was - the house was the closest to hell she ever wanted to get. And so, she sort of validates, you know, all of their stories of what happened to them. That's what really sets off a media frenzy because there were actual news crew there the night of the seance. And so, it played on the local news in the New York City market. And then it just snowballed from there because they saw all of just the appetite, you know, for this story, and that led to them doing the book, which then led to them developing the movie. But then when you think about these little kids and their parents are going on an international media tour, and they're being turned into these sort of weird celebrities, you know, about these 28 days that I'm sure must have been traumatic for the children, I think it just led to a very confusing [...] for Christopher and his siblings to experience all of that.
Matthew Sherwood 26:17
And as they point out, too, that, while their parents were going on all these media tours, they were kind of left - not left to their own, but they were, I think, dumped in a boarding school, or called the orphanage or something, you know, they, you know, when you're that young, I can only imagine what, you know, what's going through your head. And then there's also, you know, the other stuff you uncover about George Lutz, too. Which is that been - I mean, how much of that's been - has any of that really been discussed? I mean, I know you found a - bit of a spoiler alert, but I'll throw it out there - I mean, I just know that there's, you know, a psychological report that you come across and just shows that he's certifiable, that he had really deep psychological problems he was dealing with.
Jack Riccobono 27:06
Yes, yes. And yeah, that report has never been released publicly before. So, that is, you know, one of the things that we were able to uncover in our research that is new information to the story. And, you know, with Christopher - just to go back to that for one second - I mean, he describes this experience, you know, again, years later, after the movie comes out, when I guess at that point, he would have been about 11, and he sneaks into the theatre, right; his babysitter takes him to see a different movie, and he sneaks into Amityville, and he sees, you know, this bizarro representation of his life and an actor playing him on screen. And then at school, the kids are saying that he's a liar, you know, because he's saying that what happened to him is different than what's in the movie. So, it's like the movie is the source of truth. And you know, that is another thing that we just try to get into in the series is just sort of the nature of truth, and the warping impact of the media, which I think is certainly a relevant topic to the world these days, you know, and this is kind of the first time that you really kind of see this crazy kind of meta-narrative playing out through the media.
Matthew Sherwood 28:23 (30:33)
I mean, you talk about the early 70s and what a crazy time it was. I must say, I was thinking also about current day stuff we've been through the last few years, but - and then George Lutz himself has this - I mean, he - well, who knows what his - who knows what any of our perceptions of reality are, but he definitely had a philosophy that fictionalising a few little things is okay, to get - almost to get a point across, doesn't he?
Jack Riccobono 28:55
Yeah, well, I mean, I think that - again...
Matthew Sherwood 28:57
Or is it more he's motivated, or he's also just thinking, I want to make some money off of this, maybe that's more the motivation?
Jack Riccobono 29:04
Well, it's hard to - you know, it's hard to know. But again, that's sort of what we try to explore in the series. And I think that it's - I don't think it's an easy or straightforward explanation. You know, I think that there's no way - because there are these theories, right, that the whole thing was a conspiracy theory, that George and Kathy intentionally moved into that house with the idea of doing a book and all this stuff. And I don't think that's really credible, because you have to realise that there was no precedent for what happened to the Lutzs; you know, this was really the first time that a story like theirs blew up in that media era. And so, I just don't think that they could have possibly imagined where the story took them. And I think it was just a crazy roller coaster that they were trying to hang on for dear life. But I think you do get a really strong sense of the difference between George and Kathy's approach to the story. And Kathy is a very interesting and important character in this as well because, you know, when they're being interviewed they have this very kind of sober, you know, just kind of everyday American kind of vibe; you know, they don't have their hair on fire, they don't seem like wackos who believe in a lot of crazy stuff. Like, they have this very kind of like, sober and straightforward way of kind of speaking about what happened to them, which is part, of course, of what made it a phenomenon is that they seemed believable to people. But with Kathy - I mean, you could see that she's also torn as a mother about protecting her children, and George and Kathy did ultimately divorce and with again, what we uncover later about George and his prior history, it makes you wonder about Kathy and make you feel that perhaps she was trapped, you know, in this situation. And that's why it's a very - you know, this is a very kind of human story at its core. And that's why we really - we try to cover the fact that it was sensationalised because that's part of it, but also really bring you back as a viewer to the fact that these are human beings that were impacted by all of these events at the end of the day.
Matthew Sherwood 31:16 (33:26)
So, how did you become involved with this? Was this your idea? What is - you know, and why now? I mean, why - you know, how did this germinate?
Jack Riccobono 31:27
Well, you know, it wasn't my idea. The project came to me, actually, after it had been sold to the network, and they were looking for a director-showrunner to kind of take it over and really make it and go out there and do it. And, I mean, I like certain types of horror, but I'm not, like, steeped in the genre. And, you know, when the project came to me, I hadn't even seen The Amityville Horror before. So, you know, I come to it a little bit from the perspective of an outsider, which I think is not all bad, because you kind of have a fresh, you know, a fresh perspective on things when you come into it. And I did a whole crash course of reading the book and watching the movies, and sort of soaking up, you know, as much of the story as I could. And then, you know, we had executive producers on board, like Blaine Duncan and Brooklyn Hudson, who are really much more steeped in this world. And Blaine spent 20 years developing relationships with different people who we ended up featuring on the show. But for me, I just, you know, I was drawn to this possibility of sort of this cross-genre exploration, and I really felt like there was something unique about this series, because you had this true crime component, but then you also had this paranormal story, and then you had this sort of larger cultural landscape that we could explore. So, I liked the challenge. I mean, the network was very into us trying to have jump scares.
Matthew Sherwood 32:59
Well, yeah, I was gonna ask.
Jack Riccobono 33:00
... also...
Matthew Sherwood 33:01
Yeah. So, I was gonna ask you, did the network know what they were getting into at least when they brought you on? Because I mean, you - did they expect the project that you ended up making? Because I think, you know, I could see that they're trying to - yeah, recreate the original.
Jack Riccobono 33:17
Well, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I'm not sure. You know, I think this is one of these things where, like, stories get developed, and they could go in a lot of different directions. And then at some point, it becomes time to make the thing and it's like, okay, well, it can only be one thing. And I think I sold them on this vision of trying to really also lean into the cinematic horror terrain of the 70s, which I love, you know, I mean...
Matthew Sherwood 33:43
Yeah.
Jack Riccobono 33:44 (35:54)
... the unholy trinity is Rosemary's Baby...
Matthew Sherwood 33:47
Right.
Jack Riccobono 33:48
... The Exorcist and The Omen, and, like, those movies really kind of set the stage. And then, of course, Halloween in 1978 is incredible. And we were able to interview John Carpenter for the series. And so, you know, one of the big things was sort of how do you get into this story that people kind of think that they know, and we decided to route Episode One really through the Lutz's experience of that first 28 days, because that - people are kind of - most people are going to come into it kind of through the original film. And so, we really wanted to infuse the first episode with some of that kind of horror genre feel. And so, you know, early on it was a big deal to have the house be a character in the series, you know, how do you bring that to life? And how do you use the sort of language of horror in a doc series, which was a really fun challenge.
Matthew Sherwood 34:42
Well, you did some of it with music, right, or sound, right. Because that was...
Jack Riccobono 34:47
Absolutely.
Matthew Sherwood 34:48
... that definitely comes across. And then, like you say, the look or feel - so, even how it's shot - even how - I mean even some of the subjects you're interviewing, kind of have that feel. I'm sure it was done on purpose. So, they even just - I was like, Can that really be in their house? Does their house always look that dark and foreboding, you know?
Jack Riccobono 35:08 (37:20)
No, it does not. So, on the sound front, you know, we worked with an amazing sound design team led by Tom Paul, who really, you know, they really leaned into kind of building out the soundscape in our original photography, which is, of course, a crucial part of the horror genre to really kind of make you feel things through the sound design, and then we had the composer Paul Haslinger, who was a member of Tangerine Dream. So, we tried to...
Matthew Sherwood 35:39
Really?!
Jack Riccobono 35:39
... infuse - yes, infuse the soundtrack, you know, with the whole kind of 70s, you know, sound of that kind of early electronic music, and get that vibe into it. And then our DP, Todd DosSantos, did a really amazing job. And we really wanted to link the interview setups with our original photography. So, you know, the choice of location, and our production designer, Elizabeth May, who was both on for the interviews, and for original photography, we really wanted to build kind of this visual world, where you would kind of be taken on a journey. And, you know, we selected houses that were often from the 70s, and also had, you know, something of a rundown kind of quality to them. And then, for the house itself, we ended up doing an extensive search, to find a house with those famous, you know, half-quarter, quarter-round windows, from the iconic Amityville poster. And then we used several other houses for the interiors that we shot and kind of stitched it all together. So, yeah, it was a fun challenge, and, you know, early on, I decided, you know, we're not doing any actors in this, you know, we're not doing recreations; you know, we're gonna keep it - because it's so tricky with horror; it's so easy to tip that balance, and have it be kind of cheesy. And the second that that happens, you can't get the mood back, you know. So, we tried to walk that line.
Matthew Sherwood 37:20
So, you're paying homage without being sort of, in a way, without being so beholden to it, or, as you say, crossing that line to cheese or pastiche or whatever it is. But - and I think you've...
Jack Riccobono 37:35
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 37:37
Yeah, cos I was wondering, does everyone that was affiliated with this - with, like, the DeFeos - do they all live in these rundown houses? Or do they all have - they need their kitchens remodelled? Maybe they'll get some help with that. But no, that's...
Jack Riccobono 37:52
No, they entered the world of the show. You know, and I, you know, yes, it's a doc series, but, you know, because it's about Amityville, and we're sort of playing with all these different versions of truth, I did feel kind of free in terms of making some of those types of creative decisions to take the audience on a real visual ride. And I also - I have to mention that our lead editor Andrew Ford, you know, he was instrumental, too, in working with the original film, which, you know, again, I would say is like, not actually that scary. But the way we deployed it is actually scarier than the film is, especially through today's sort of, you know, modern tastes and everything. So, it was incredible to have access to the original film, because this was an MGM project. So, through MGM, we were able to access the original movie, and really work with it to kind of again, kind of blend it in to the show.
Matthew Sherwood 38:55
Yeah. Well, and then I guess you have a bit of a - you have a scripted background, too, don't you? So, that certainly came in handy for this.
Jack Riccobono 39:04
Yes, I have worked in a bunch of different genres. So, yeah, I think that background probably helped in creating the visual world, for sure.
Matthew Sherwood 39:13 (41:24)
Okay. Well, I mean, I think we're coming close to the end of our time together. But before we bid adieu, I think - what's next for you? Because this came out, this has been in the can for a while. It released in the states almost a year ago. I'm sure you're working on other things. Is there anything you can tell us about?
Jack Riccobono 39:33
Well, nothing that's announced yet, but yeah, it just - it came out just before the strikes hit. So, that was interesting timing.
Matthew Sherwood 39:40
Yeah.
Jack Riccobono 39:41
But, yes, I have a few different shows that are in development right now. And I'm also working on a narrative feature script. So, you know, well, nothing that I can fully get into but I'm excited for what will happen next. Maybe there's one thing that I'm working on that is connected to the 2024 election in the US, so we'll see what happens there, but, you know, the chaos on this side of the pond is quite dramatic these days, as I'm sure everybody is aware of on some level. So, it's going to be a very interesting year here in America.
Matthew Sherwood 40:19
I'm gonna have to ask you a question about that offline. Don't worry, we won't - I know you can't share much on that. But, well, it's been a pleasure having you on, Jack. Really, really enjoyed it. I do recommend it. I'm not a horror aficionado myself. My wife is but I found it very - I found it very interesting, very compelling. I thought it was a - you know, it was a great series, really enjoyed it. So, just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been talking with Jack Riccobono, the director of Amityville: An Origin Story. It's available - it's been available in the US - North America for a while; you can find it. And here in the UK, check it out on iPlayer. I don't know how long it will stay there, so do hurry and get it and watch it because it's well worth a viewing. So, thanks again, Jack.
Jack Riccobono 41:10
Great. Thanks, Matthew. Appreciate it. It's nice talking with you.
Matthew Sherwood 41:13
Nice talking with you.
Matthew Sherwood 41:20
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 42:00
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