Writing with Fire: Oscar Nominee for Best Documentary

Factual America

9 Feb

Written By

Writing with Fire (2021) is an inspiring story about India's only newspaper run by Dalit, low-caste women. Armed with smartphones and tenacity, chief reporter Meera Devi and her journalists break traditions as they break stories and tackle India's biggest issues. In the process, they are redefining what it means to be powerful socially.

Writing with Fire is one of this year's Academy Award nominees for The Best Feature Documentary. The film has already won the Audience Award and Special Jury Award at Sundance Film Festival 2021, and a host of other awards at over a hundred film festivals around the world.

Award-winning co-director, co-producer, editor and cinematographer of Writing with Fire, Sushmit Ghosh, joins us to share the five-year journey of making this film in collaboration with his partner in film and life, Rintu Thomas. He reveals what drew him and Rintu to this story, how they chose the subjects, and how the film was received worldwide.

“It’s not just a story about a journalist who’s managing an institution that may or may not grow, it’s a story about a mother, a wife and a daughter, and the guilt that women have to bear in making choices on a day to day basis.” - Sushmit Ghosh

Time Stamps:

00:00 - Clip from Writing with Fire, showing Meera on a reporting assignment.
02:40 - How the filmmakers reacted to the Academy Awards shortlist.
04:30 - What the film is about.
06:20 - The background of the Dalit community and their position in India.
13:34 - What it’s like for the film protagonist Meera to live the life of a journalist.
17:15 - Who the other two main subjects of the film are.
22:18 - Second clip: Meera teaches Shyamkali how to use smartphone for her work.
24:35 - Where Writing with Fire can be seen.
29:31 - Whether Sushmit ever felt he and Rintu were endangered while filming.
33:10 - Political changes that have happened during the four years of filming.
36:43 - How Sushmit and Rintu got the idea for making this film.
41:25 - Reception to the film on the festival circuit and how it inspired people to take action.
47:30 - What’s next for Sushmit and Rintu.

Resources:

Writing with Fire (2021)
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures

Transcript for Factual America Episode 86 - Writing with Fire: Oscar Nominee for Best Documentary

Sushmit Ghosh 00:00
Hi, my name is Sushmit Ghosh, and I am the co-director, producer, editor, cinematographer of Writing with Fire, the story about a team of Dalit women journalists from India who are speaking truth to power.

Speaker 1 00:25
[What are you here for?]

Speaker 2 00:26
[I'm reporting on this road.]

Speaker 1 00:26
[Which channel? TV or print?]

Speaker 2 00:26
[Khabar Lahariya. We're a newspaper and a channel. Our channel is on You Tube and the newspaper is available weekly.]

Speaker 1 00:26
[Then get out of here.]

Speaker 2 00:26
Okay.

Speaker 1 00:26
[We don't need you here. No one will believe that you came here walking. Media companies give their journalists bikes, mobiles and cash.]

Speaker 2 00:26
[You have no idea about how we work.]

Speaker 1 00:26
[You should speak within your limits. Don't overdo it. Our only demand is that you print this story on your front page.]

Speaker 2 00:26
[Let me make something clear.]

Speaker 1 00:26
[Now you will ask for money.]

Speaker 2 00:26
[Absolutely not, we don't take bribes to report news.]

Speaker 1 00:26
[... but you must be used to giving bribes.]

Speaker 2 00:26
[I don't need a bribe to do my work. If the news is worthy, it will be on our front page.]

Speaker 3 00:26
[She is right.]

Speaker 1 00:28
[Shouldn't you demand a road for cars to run smoothly?]

Speaker 2 00:30
[No, that's not my demand.]

Matthew 01:51
This is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company, making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome the award winning filmmaker, Sushmit Ghosh. His film Writing with Fire has been shortlisted for an Academy Award and tells the inspiring story of India's only newspaper run by Dalit, low caste, women. Armed with smartphones, wit, and tenacity, chief reporter Meera and her journalists break traditions as they break stories and tackle India's biggest issues. In the process, they are redefining what it means to be powerful. Sushmit, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Sushmit Ghosh 02:39
Oh, thanks, Matthew, for having me, and looking forward to this chat. It's been a busy time. But it's been an interesting time.

Matthew 02:47
I imagine it has been an interesting time. The film we're talking about is Writing with Fire; shortlisted for an Academy Award, Audience Award and Special Jury Prize at Sundance, among many other awards at the festival circuit. So, thanks so much for joining us on - I know this is a national holiday in India. So, it's Republic Day, which is very poignant. Especially, it's all by coincidence on our end, but it's much appreciated that you're spending some of your Republic Day with us. And congratulations on the Academy Award nomination. I mean, what was it like to receive that call?

Sushmit Ghosh 03:23
Oh, well, it's an interesting story. So, Rintu and I were flying in from London, we'd just finished our campaigning, and this was the night when the shortlist was going to be announced. We landed on the tarmac in Delhi, I think about 2:30 in the morning, and Rintu switched on her phone and let out a little shriek and [laughter] the other passengers on our side of the plane were just like, Is everything okay? And then she's just, Oh no, no, everything's fine. And then word went out that an Indian documentary was on the shortlist, and people were, like, clapping and strangers were whistling. So, that's how we brought the news in. But it's phenomenal. It's great to be an independent film on the shortlist, yeah.

Matthew 04:09
And your feature debut. I mean, that's absolutely amazing. So, and I understand why, having seen the film. I mean, for those of our listeners and viewers who haven't, maybe you can give us a little synopsis, you've already kind of done it. Quick - certainly logline at the beginning - but what is Writing with Fire all about?

Sushmit Ghosh 04:32
Writing with Fire is the story of Khabar Lahariya, which literally translates into 'waves of news', which is a newsroom that is run entirely by women, and most of them women from the Dalit community. And we caught them at a time where they were transitioning from 14 years of print to digital. And we were drawn to the story essentially because we were curious to see how they were going to make this transition, fundamentally because they were operating in a region that is known for notorious levels of violence against the Dalit community, against women. And just to be a Dalit woman journalist in these parts of India operating in media-dark spaces, was a story that was just waiting to be told. And the film essentially follows three reporters in the newsroom, and - Meera, who's the central protagonist of the film, and two journalists that she's essentially mentoring. And over the course of five years that we put this film together, we see not only them transition in their personal lives, but also in their professional lives, we see the growth of Khabar Lahariya as essentially a force in the news making space in India. And we also see India in an interesting way transition as a democracy. So, it's telling a lot of stories in an interconnected way.

Matthew 06:04
Indeed, and maybe for - you know, I think a decent number of our listeners may not, I mean, just maybe pull back just a bit, maybe, I think a lot of our listeners may not know that much about Dalits and what that means in terms of context of Indian culture, maybe you can give us a little background on these women that we see in this film.

Sushmit Ghosh 06:31
Sure. So, India has - or had; okay, let me rephrase this. So, there is the caste system that many people have heard of. And according to the Hindu scriptures, very basic, basically, humans can be divided into four key castes, and it's sort of like a pyramid hierarchy. And each of these four castes have multiple sub-castes. And the Dalit community is considered, quote, unquote, so impure, that they have historically always been kept out of the caste system, and essentially have borne the brunt of, or the legacy, or essentially the violence of what it means being outsiders to the caste system. And while India gained independence, caste based practices were banned constitutionally. But, you know, it's sometimes difficult to get rid of a social structure that has been around for nearly 3,000 years. And so, if you're from the Dalit community, you would be someone who has historically always been marginalized, always been oppressed, would not necessarily have access to resources that most other Indians would have, whether that be education or healthcare. And you see a lot of that in the film, as these reporters go into these media-dark villages, spaces that are not covered by the mainstream, where people don't have access to clean drinking water, or toilets, healthcare facilities, schools, electricity, and the work that these women are doing is essentially ensuring equity and justice for people across the spectrum in the country. So...

Matthew 08:27
I think that brings us to a good point because your film also talks about - you know, maybe we can talk about the societal challenges these women face. So, you've already alluded to it, but, you know, we are talking about the world's largest democracy. You know, you've had Indira Gandhi, so you've had a woman as head of the country, but very much still, and especially where they're based, male dominated media, male dominated industry, and crime and society. And you also have this rise of increasingly - increasingly this rise of right wing extremism. So, this, they face so many challenges on so many fronts, don't they?

Sushmit Ghosh 09:06
Absolutely. I think India is also a bit of a paradox; one of the first democracies in the world to elect a woman prime minister. Uttar Pradesh the state where these women operate, just for context, is the largest state in India in terms of population. If it was a country, it would be the fifth largest country in the world.

Matthew 09:25
Wow.

Sushmit Ghosh 09:26
It's - yeah, it's a complicated geography. And incidentally, Uttar Pradesh still, not long ago, had a woman chief minister who was a Dalit woman. So, you know...

Matthew 09:37
I remember that.

Sushmit Ghosh 09:37
... yeah. So, you know, it's a bag of many things. But you're right, Matthew, that the fact that if you're a Dalit woman in these parts of the country, especially in the belt, where we have filmed in southern Uttar Pradesh, the very act of stepping out of your home is an act of courage. The fact that you have Dalit women who have decided to take on the role of journalists in these spaces where most mainstream male, quote, unquote, again, upper caste men fear to tread is quite something in itself. And I think what was pivotal in the journey of this newsroom was the fact that while they had existed for 14 years as a newspaper, they were known within a smaller region or a smaller geography because, you know, they would do 5,000 runs of the newspaper every two weeks. And according to their own studies, they were hitting a readership of roughly 15,000 people, and usually, mostly people who were reading their newspaper, were men because women or young girls would not be allowed to complete their schooling. So, I think when Meera, who's the central protagonist of our film, decided to lead this change, one of the things that she was benching her hopes on was to be able to diversify the readership, or in this case, the viewership, of news, and right on this demographic dividend of access to technology, which most Indians now have. So, we've said this so many times, and we've actually witnessed this on the ground, that a house might not have a toilet or electricity, but they will definitely have a small, cheap Chinese smartphone, and access to cheap 3G, 4G services. And that's the pivot that Meera wanted to make where their news was seen by more people. And because they are on these digital platforms like YouTube and Facebook, they're also able to sort of measure the metrics, how many people are watching the news [inaudible], how many women are watching it? What is the age bracket that's consuming the news, and they've had explosive growth, and they've been able to sort of use metrics to essentially inform themselves on what's working and what's not. But the fact that Dalit women are doing what they're doing in itself is quite something because a model like this doesn't exist anywhere else in the country. And what also drew us in was the fact that this wasn't just a social experiment, they had existed as professional journalists for 14 years. So, we knew that this shift was going to lead to something tangible. And the success or the failure of the newspaper itself was sort of like a Trojan horse for us. We wanted to dive into the lives of these three women and actually tell you the story from inside their worlds and what it means being a woman challenging these systems of oppression and patriarchy and navigating through these very hostile spaces.

Matthew 09:53
Well, let's talk about these three women. And even before we do that, I mean, even just that newsroom, their staff, that's - I mean, this is - well, these are some of the most inspirational characters I can remember from recent memory. And also - I mean, what struck me is their faces. I mean, they're going, you know, they're, as you say, we've got this historical legacy, what their lives are like, but their faces are actually aglow. I mean, these women are just, they just exude beauty in confidence. And it's - and you can see them even grow, some of them, in confidence. But let's talk about Meera, the, I guess she's now bureau chief. I mean, what's her average day like? She's bureau chief of this newspaper, that's, you know, exploding in terms of digital platforms, but see lots of late night train trips home. She's still got to take care of the kids and the housework. I mean, what is it like for Meera?

Sushmit Ghosh 13:58
Oh, my God. I mean, it's - how do I put this, we were working 18 hour shifts with her. And that was on average. Her days would start at about five in the morning, leaving home about 5:36, going into the field, the back-of-beyond train journeys, followed by bus journeys, followed by rickshaw rides, and then just the act of walking, because a lot of these spaces that they were going into did not exist on Google Maps, did not exist on any physical maps. So, it's essentially asking people, Where is this village? And, you know, in India, a lot of times many villages sound similar, so, landing up in the wrong village and then directing yourself. And operating in geographies where average temperatures are about 40 degrees Celsius, and because this is also sort of like the mining belt of the country, so extremely dusty as well. And so, working in the field, reporting, and then making the long journey back home, coming back home eight, nine, sometimes ten, at night, and filing the stories that you have done. But between all of this also managing a team of nearly 25 reporters in the field who are constantly calling in with something or the other that's going wrong in terms of either access, or their own stories, or technology, and managing a home, you know, two daughters and a husband and just the burden of expectations that we have from our mothers, and that you could be a working woman, but you are still expected to come back home and take care of the house, you know. So, I think that's something that we also wanted to allude to in the film, where, if you see Meera's graph, you know, she's someone who's very anchored. She's someone, as you say, who's full of - she exudes a certain quiet power. There is something of her that is very elegant and graceful. And yet, she's able to sort of like, you know, keep the shop together. And I think the fact that she's able to do it and dance these dances so gracefully, is something that we wanted to sort of string into the film, that it's not just the story of a journalist who's managing an institution that may or may not grow, but it's essentially the story of a mother and a wife and a daughter, and the guilt that women also have to bear in making choices on a day-to-day basis. So, and it's about the big story. It's also about those little nuanced conversations that happen inside the house with the daughter or with the husband. And that's what the stitching on the edit was all about.

Matthew 16:41
That's excellent. And, I think, you're talking about her 'quiet power', I mean, this - her just marching into the police station, and, you know, there's the confronting them about some of these horrific stories that they're breaking. Absolutely amazing. I mean, that's right up there with the most confident leading journalists you would see anywhere, you know, it's quite impressive. And then you mentioned the mining belt. And that brings us, I guess, to Suneeta, who's another lovely character that we get to meet, exposing the, you know, these horrific conditions that are straight out of hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. Yet, she has her own family pressures to deal with that we learn about in the film. Could you say a few things about Suneeta?

Sushmit Ghosh 17:30
So, when, you know, a little anecdote sort of pulling back, so, how we met all three of them, Suneeta, Meera, and Shyamkali is in the meeting, right? Almost in the beginning of the film, when Meera is pitching to the entire team, the urgency to shift to digital, and it lasted nearly four hours. And about 28 women reporters sitting and debating and discussing, and the energy in the room was just very infectious. And Suneeta stood out because she was the youngest reporter in the team. Baby face, but she constantly challenging the entire leadership, because she was someone who was a cub reporter, homegrown in the art of reporting, and she'd fallen in love with the physical edition of the newspaper and in a sense, did not want to transition to digital. And she had a lot of questions about how we're going to do this, because, for instance, if I go into the field, and interview someone who's just lost a child, it's easy for me to do that in print, but would they consent to actually have their face in my video reportage. And, you know, they were having these nuanced conversations about ethics and consent and character strands, and I think Suneeta stood out for us, because of the energy levels that she brought, and the fact that she was an absolute maverick, a sort of a shooting star. And we were interested in seeing here is a lot of potential. How is Meera going to hone this energy in and will she be able to craft Suneeta into a next level leader? And that's essentially what our whole point with Suneeta was, and as we stayed longer with her, layers of her own personal story began to unravel for us; her own life, where she lives, her own personal history, which is interconnected with the mine next to the village where she lives. Sort of like, gives you a sense of why she does what she does and the purpose with which she works. So, Suneeta was an automatic and an immediate choice for us; like, we instinctively knew that she had to be someone profiling the film.

Matthew 19:51
And for someone who was maybe a little bit resistant about making the move to digital, she's an absolute natural.

Sushmit Ghosh 19:57
Absolute star. Yeah.

Matthew 20:01
And then Shyamkali, I mean, that's - probably kind of comes out quietly, and then rises to the front; you know, she's someone who can't even - well, has not even had access to a smartphone, previously. I mean, that's - I guess she's representative of a lot of the women that they bring in and who do the reporting.

Sushmit Ghosh 20:19
Absolutely. One of the reasons why we decided to have her in the film. We always imagined the film with three characters, sort of like this pyramid structure. And Shyamkali, in a sense, represented this fear of embracing something new and the unknown. And also brought in this sense of ironic humor. Like, here is a young woman in the 21st century, who's scared to touch her phone, because she feels that she should not be. And it is not [inaudible] to do that. And the agency that she has eventually through the course of the film, as she's claimed by her, you know, the group of sisters that she's with, to eventually go on to her breakthrough case, demonstrating, you know, the ethics, the compassion, and really the sophistication of an investigative reporter. Some of the best that you'd find in the world, to break a case that leads to action and leads to clear consequences. And now Shyamkali is someone who's a senior reporter in the organization, the best - they have these monthly awards and she consistently wins the award for best camera woman, so she's doing really well. She continues to remain a reticent, shy - sort of like a lone wolf but she pulls off some great stories and doing really well. Yes.

Matthew 21:56
Excellent. Hey, I think that takes us to a good point for a break for our audience so we'll be right back with Sushmit Ghosh, the director, producer, and editor, and cinematographer among many other things, I'm sure, of Writing with Fire, shortlisted for an Academy Award.

Speaker 1 22:16
[Next is Shyamkali.]

Speaker 2 22:16
[I couldn't do anything.]

Speaker 3 22:16
[What is confusing you?]

Speaker 4 22:30
[Find this. That's the wrong one. 'i' is the stick with a dot on it.]

Speaker 2 22:30
[I don't understand some buttons on my mobile and how to send e-mails. I don't understand these buttons in English.]

Speaker 4 22:30
[Okay, let me do a session on the English alphabet. I'm writing the Hindi pronunciation also. Yes, note everything down.]

Speaker 2 22:31
[But there are so many English characters!]

Factual America midroll 23:45
If you enjoy Factual America, check out the MovieMaker podcast. That's all one word: MovieMaker. Where our friends at moviemaker.com interview everyone from filmmakers just breaking in, to A-Listers like David Fincher and Edgar Wright, about their moviemaking secrets, and behind the scenes tricks of the trade. They go deep and let the guests speak uninterrupted, to get you the most film insight. Now back to Factual America.

Matthew 24:13
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning filmmaker Sushmit Ghosh. The film is Writing with Fire, shortlisted for an Academy Award, winner of Audience and special jury awards at Sundance and many other film festivals awards. Actually, Sushmit, are people able to watch this anywhere, yet? Is it streaming anywhere? Is that something that's in process?

Sushmit Ghosh 24:37
So, essentially, it's going to be on Independent Lens in March, and it is going to be broadcast in a bunch of places depending on which part of the world you're sitting in. So, it is going to be on public television in many parts of Europe. It's on BBC as well.

Matthew 24:55
Okay.

Sushmit Ghosh 24:56
And we are hoping that I think March is when you will be able to watch the film. And with, of course, with the broadcast comes access to the broadcaster's own streaming services. But the film is not on one single platform where you can click, and - yeah. Yeah.

Matthew 25:14
Okay. All right. So, watch this space everyone. Do, do watch it, though, when you get a chance. I'm actually gonna watch it again, when I get a chance, because - I've only had a chance to - well, I've watched a couple scenes twice, actually, which - but we were talking before the break, and I think we even already, you know, mentioned this, but you know, this film also captures what is happening in India. So, at the moment, and I think there's a very poignant scene, and we're going to maybe even talk more about it, or we can even talk about now, just this scene where, I think there's a staff meeting, but you know, that there's a lot of - what are the staffers at the newspaper feel about all this change? I mean, they find it threatening? Do they find it, you know, maybe you can maybe give us a little insight on that.

Sushmit Ghosh 26:09
I think it's something as journalists they were clued into. When you have your feet and ears on the ground, you do expect what the future holds for you, and you're able to read the signs. And it's something that we've been witnessing globally, as well with the rise of populist governments, and how big data companies working in collusion with these sophisticated agencies have been able to bring to power personality cults right across the world, whether that be Philippines or Turkey, or, you know, fortunately for you, what seemed to be four years under Trump gone now. But they knew that, you know, it wasn't going to be easy, but these are conversations that we always had with them. And, you know, Meera actually once commented and what she had to say was really interesting. She said, Listen, guys, you folks come from the cities, right, and we as Dalit women have always had to face, and for us, our resistance was always built into these systems of oppression. So, this is not something new. But because this is now flowing out from the tiny villages into the towns and now coming into the cities, you feel anxious about what's going to happen. But we've always seen this. And we've actually been at the bottom of the system, so to speak, bearing the weight of all of this, so it's not new. And so, our job as journalists, essentially, is to filter the news and continue to present it the way it should. And I also think it speaks to the fact that, you know, this whole idea of what is news really, because the way that the Fourth Estate, in a sense can also be blamed for the rise of populism across the world, where the Fourth Estate now is hand-in-glove with corporations, where the meaning of news essentially, news is being designed by a small set of people making editorial decisions on behalf of millions and it's not very [inaudible] in India, just statistically speaking, you know, according to a recent survey, nearly 94% of all major broadsheets and news channels in India, the editorial positions are high caste men who are deciding what news is. And in the Editors' Guild of India, there is only one Dalit reporter, and it's a reporter from Khabar Lahariya, which speaks to, you know, the relevance of this newsroom. So, while they are small newsroom, they are much recognized for what they're doing. And I think it also speaks to the courage of these women for continuing to do what they are doing, despite the times and the circumstances that they are in.

Matthew 29:08
Well, I mean, as I think the film points out - maybe, I think it's towards the end, that, you know, journalists are - it's not without its dangers. It's a dangerous profession across the world, but especially in India, as well. And, I mean, do you - with you guys – so, you're following them around, did you ever feel like you're under threat, you know, because they're going into - they're exploring things that the mafia is doing, they're - you know, I don't think they pull their punches with anyone; any politician who's not doing what they should be doing, they will report on it, doesn't have to be a particular party. So, did you ever feel like you were in a dangerous position yourselves as filmmakers?

Sushmit Ghosh 29:55
In retrospect, like, when we've been talking about the film and the spaces that we went into film. We did go into some dangerous spaces, but you know, like the bus was moving so fast [inaudible] and once you throw into it, you're just filming. And I think that, yeah, we were filming - this was, I think, the first time that Rintu and I, and Karan was our co-cinematographer, we filmed all across India, in the rural heartlands across the country. And we, in a sense, had an understanding of what India was like, and not the India that you see as the India shining, but the real India in the heartlands. But this was the first time where we collectively experienced so much trauma around us of the violence that is in the air; where you see physically which manifests in the forms of dead bodies brutalized in front of you, but also the palpable danger that's there in the air. So, for instance, there are scenes where Suneeta and Meera are out late at night and walking through these dark alleyways. And the only thing that's helping them navigate these spaces is the torch on their mobile phone and nobody else, right, and we were going through spaces that, you know, women are constantly picked up, kidnapped, raped, murdered. So, that's something that sort of was in our minds, but the fact that we were making a film on these journalists who knew how to navigate and negotiate through these spaces, so well, I don't think we really dwelled on it too much. It's only after we came back and started sifting through the footage in the edit room, and because we'd filmed for four years when we went back to the old footage, we just like, Whoa. We ended up filming this? So, that's what happened but it was all retrospective.

Matthew 32:01
One thing that struck me is that, so, the film, actually - there's a slight turn in the tail. Probably one that you did or didn't expect with the BJP winning the Uttar Pradesh state elections, and there's that big meeting they have and they talk about - Meera's talking about how they're going to have to - the reporting's got to become more nuanced. Small group of them are going to be doing the critical stories. And I think she ends by saying we must - or someone says, We must be vigilant. And then the next scene you go to, from vigilant to vigilante. And, but what I found interesting is that she interviews Satyam, I mean, he's this upcoming leader of this vigilante group and yet he becomes a bit of a character in this film, as well. And that was an interesting turn sort of halfway in. Was that conscious? I mean, what were you guys thinking with bringing him into the story?

Sushmit Ghosh 33:01
It happened out of the blue. Completely. And it actually happened when I look back halfway through the filming. Two years into the filming this happened and strangely enough, we dropped it into the film at the 45 minute mark halfway through the film as well. We didn't expect Satyam to jostle for space with Meera, Suneeta, and Shyamkali, but we knew that he was going to become an important character in the film. Essentially, because I feel that he in a sense represents also, you know, this shade of gray that we see in our societies. Don't get me wrong. He is someone who is quite an affable character off-camera, we used to crack jokes with him, had a lot of fun; he invited us home. We spent a lot of time with him. But we were looking at Satyam's story through Meera's eyes, and our question to her always was, What compels you, despite all the stories that you're doing, this is a long form investigative piece that you doing, because she went back time and again to Satyam and she filed, like, a series of stories about him over the year. And she said Satyam for me represents the future of this country, the future of the youth of this country, and the choices that they're making. And in a sense, that became sort of the anchor point for us as well, that Satyam being Satyam is not just a vigilante, so to speak. He's a young man who lost his way, and the choices that we all have. And for us, it was interesting to also sort of counterbalance - Meera said something very beautiful that didn't make it to the final cut of the film, where she said that all kinds of people will have all kinds of choices. But when I look at young people, on the one hand, you have someone like Satyam and on the other hand, you have someone like Suneeta, and they both had to make the choices but look at the paths that they took. And I'm interested in seeing what choices more young people will make over the course of the next few years. And I think that was something that beautifully set up Satyam's arc as well in - he also represents this, sort of, this force of technology as well, you know, in one particular scene, he very gently alludes to the fact that he's able to bring together people using WhatsApp, and WhatsApp has become sort of like a tool for fake news in India. WhatsApp has become a great proponent of sort of galvanizing literally forces on the ground, feet on the ground. And so, on the one hand, you have the women in the news institution doing what they're doing with technology. On the other hand, you have this other set of folks with souls in their hands protecting their idea, a notion of what India should be, this whole idea of a pure nation. And what does that really mean? And how is technology galvanizing? So, you know, these questions around future and democracy, technology all sort of get underpinned in in Satyam's own arc, so's to speak.

Matthew 36:20
Well, it's all there, all beautifully done, and put together and it's definitely - it's a piece of art, piece of cinema that I highly recommend that everyone go watch when they have a chance. You mentioned earlier, sort of, you guys have been - I think you were five years or so on the case, but how did this project come about? And how did you all get involved? Was it merely you came across this newspaper, and saw this would be a, this would be something that could be a good doc., how did that come about?

Sushmit Ghosh 36:54
Strangely, on the internet, we saw a photo story pop up on our Facebook timelines of a woman delivering newspapers in this very arid landscape, and she was wearing this colorful sari. And when we found out more, we discovered the work of the newspaper and the fact that they had been around for 14 years. So, they weren't just a social experiment. So, we knew that there was already a gravitas over there. It's when we reached out to them and met them, where we essentially began to have conversations around wanting to make a feature length film on them, that we realized that they were going to shift to digital, and we knew that something interesting would happen, because you're looking at, you know, the archaic traditions of the caste system, and how brutal and oppressive and ancient and primitive it is. And on the other hand, you have the newer force of technology that's contained in a smartphone, in the hands of a Dalit woman who's basically bearing the weight of both of these worlds. And I think there was - that was a very natural entry point for us, because we were curious to see how would Meera and her team, you know, philosophically speaking, manage between both of these forces? Or would one end up crushing the other? That could have also possibly been an outcome, which, thankfully, it wasn't.

Matthew 38:28
Yeah. And then, so, you just approached them? And they said, Yes. And you just got the cameras rolling and let what happened, happened?

Sushmit Ghosh 38:37
They were curious, actually, to be honest. They had had a lot of shorts made on them. So, they were aware of what a film crew does, but they weren't very sure of what a feature documentary look like. So, they asked us questions about how long is this going to take? And what is your lens? What's your angle? As Meera explains to Shyamkali in the film what an angle is. So, they were like, what's your angle? So, they had already seen our body of work. And in a sense, they knew what our lens was. And, you know, our interest always has been about amplifying stories about protagonists who are literally on the margins, who most people would not know of, who have created tectonic shifts within their communities, whether that be agriculture, climate change, maternal, refugee rights. So, they automatically fit into our own interest areas of folks we like to work with. And, I think, what essentially happened was that when they invited us over for this first meeting, and I think that's where we got really lucky because we were able to film this meeting that was a pivotal shift, and a moment not only in the film, but in the history of the newspaper and the seven days that we spent with them, they ended up watching us film them. And our approach was very minimal. There were three of us on the ground, we decided to go in with DSLRs and not, you know, the bigger cameras, not the C-300s, not the prime lenses, not the thinner lenses. There was no sound recordist, so Rintu doubled up as a sound person. There were no boom mics. At all levels, our approach was be as non-intrusive as possible. And just, you know, that classic, if you were to be a fly on the wall, what would it look...

Matthew 40:40
Yeah. Yeah.

Sushmit Ghosh 40:40
... and I think that it's that choreography that allowed them to trust our process, because we never interfered with their work. And we weren't whipping out our cameras, whenever there was a moment to shoot, you know. But we would always wait for the journalists to make the first move. And I think that's sort of like the process that we set up, which they trusted. And that allowed us to enter their own inner worlds, Sanctum Sanctorum, so to speak, and that's where we began to film from within their lives, so to speak, so, yeah.

Matthew 41:18
Well, it's met with - your film's met with an incredible reception. Did you ever imagine you would make a splash like this?

Sushmit Ghosh 41:29
So, you know, we ended up spending five years making this film, but also pitching it in different forums internationally. And everywhere, we would pitch, people would walk up to us and say, Hey, listen, is there a link where I could just donate something to the journalists? And so, we knew that this is a story that was emotionally drawing in an audience even at a pitch level. And we knew that this was a story we wanted to craft in a way that was as universal as it was Indian, so it could not lose its Indian identity, couldn't be too simple for an Indian audience. Because an Indian audience, in a sense, understands the nuances of casting; you don't need to say a lot. But we didn't want it to be too over-complicated for an international audience. And so, that's how we stitched the story together. And in a sense, both of us knew that the story would play well. But we did not for any, I mean, we did not imagine the reception that it would get. I mean, playing in nearly 120 festivals in just twelve months, across the world is quite something. And I think what's overwhelmed us has been the fact that, you know, Covid has pushed most filmmakers to do this virtually and digitally, but what it's also led to, has been, in a weird way, a democratization of also the film watching experience, because when it played at Sundance, it wasn't just, you know, certain kind of a crowd that was moved [inaudible] to watch the film. Sundance opened it up [inaudible] and so 10,000 people on the first two screenings, watch Writing with Fire. And we had these notes coming in on Instagram, on Facebook, about how there was a police officer who ended up watching the film with his two daughters. And he mailed in saying, I love Suneeta, she could be like a cop; like, she's so cool, you know, and my daughters love her and from all across. And I think that kind of love that this narrative galvanized I feel happened, essentially, because the film became more accessible, in a sense. And, but yeah, I mean, this is something we were hoping for, that we would be able to present this film to as many audiences across as many spaces. It's been a bit debilitating sort of managing distribution because the world of distribution became so complex because of the pandemic. But we have been finding ways and opportunities of presenting this film and bringing the journalists with us into different forums whether that means [inaudible] film schools or other spaces. So, fingers crossed, 2022 might be an interesting year as well because we are embarking on an impact run with the film, and there's a lot of excitement around it, so.

Matthew 44:17
Well, understandably and I wish you luck with all that, and I think you mentioned - we'll put some links in the show notes, I'm sure, to, you know, like you said, if people want to get in touch or even donate to what these women are doing. And one last question regarding this, are you going to - if you're one of the final nominees - you flying to LA, you gonna go to the Oscars?

Sushmit Ghosh 44:45
Oh, I would love to have Meera, Suneeta, and Shyamkali walk the red carpet in their saris!

Matthew 44:50
That would be amazing. Yeah, exactly. And live reporting I'm sure.

Sushmit Ghosh 44:58
That's what they're going to do. We were able to sort of have Meera with us at IDFA in Amsterdam, briefly, she was able to present the film with us in person to a live audience. And people fell in love with her. And she was constantly recording everything and sending it back to India. This was the first time she was traveling outside the country. So, I think people across the world also need to witness another prototype of an Indian woman, you know [inaudible] India so far, especially when they're being seen from a Western lens have been a certain kind of narrative. And I think one of the reasons why this story is also picked up so well, has been because people are witnessing a very different kind of power. They're witnessing the power of Dalit women journalists who are actually not speaking for just their community, but are holding the pillars of the Fourth Estate strong, which is something that needs to be mirrored across the world. And I feel that one of the things that people feel galvanized, one of the reasons they feel galvanized is because you see protagonists, you don't expect to do this, you know, people who have historically been oppressed, picking themselves up and fighting for us. So, with all our privilege, what complaints do we have living in this fractured world, to not make it a better space? And I think more people need to witness this. So, I mean, that would be the dream, if the film [inaudible] that would get so much to the news agency, but also to journalists across the world. The fact that two actually won the Nobel Peace Prize speaks to the relevance of the Fourth Estate right now, in the moment where we are, anywhere in the world.

Matthew 46:53
Yeah. And I think as the, at the very least, as the Washington Post, I think put it probably, possibly the greatest journalist movie ever made, at least in their estimation. So, yeah, I think it's - I wish you luck. I hope you are one of the final nominees. We've been fortunate to have a few of the preliminary nominees on this podcast. So, it's been great getting to talk with you and discuss this film. I mean, one last question, if we may, because I know we're coming up on the end of our time together, but well, what's next for you and Rintu? I mean, I know you said the impact round, but where do you go from here?

Sushmit Ghosh 47:38
I think I'm going to vegetate for a month after all of this [Laughter]! So, we are developing a couple of stories. One of them was a documentary, but because of the lockdown, we couldn't go in for our research, but the more we've been thinking about it, it actually lends itself more into a hybrid, almost narrative, piece. And it's a form that we're very excited about. So, it's a story that we want to dive into this year. And there is another story that we're doing with a streamer. It's an episodic series about a little school, in a coastal belt in India. That's all I can say. But we are very excited about it, essentially, because it's an observational story about young children with big hopes and dreams. And another film that I think - another series that I think the world needs to bear witness to, so fingers crossed on that.

Matthew 48:35
Well, we look forward to seeing both those projects when they come to fruition. So, just want to give a big thanks to Sushmit Ghosh for spending part of his Republic Day with us. I know that's very poignant for us, and there's a very poignant scene in the film that takes place on Republic Day, so very much appreciate it. Just to remind our listeners we've been talking with the award winning director, producer, cinematographer, editor of Writing with Fire, Sushmit Ghosh. The film is been shortlisted for an Academy Award, and also won Audience Award and special jury awards at Sundance, and a host of other awards across the festival circuit. I'd like to give a shout out to Sam and Joe Graves at Innersound Audio in Escrick, England in deepest, darkest Yorkshire. A big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. You can reach out to us on YouTube, social media, or directly by going to our website, www.factualamerica.com, and clicking on the Get in Touch link. And as always, please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.

Factual America Outro 50:04
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk.

Writing with Fire: Oscar Nominee for Best Documentary

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