The Last Hillbilly of Rural Appalachia

Factual America

16 Feb

Written By

Rural Appalachia is a part of America that’s vanishing before our eyes. With the loss of the coal industry, the future for the people of eastern Kentucky is uncertain. However, this is what inspires the self-proclaimed "last hillbilly" Brian Ritchie.

French directors and writers, Diane Sara Bouzgarrou and Thomas Jenkoe, join us to discuss their award-winning documentary The Last Hillbilly (2020). The film won the Best International Doc Award at the Torino Film Festival, and received a special mention at IDFA under the First Appearance Category.

The Last Hillbilly follows Brian Ritchie, who is among other things, a poet, philosopher and not what you would expect from your stereotypical hillbilly. A daunting, yet poetic look at a part of America that will never be the same again, this film dives into Brian's stream of consciousness and explores the gap between his identity and his existence.

“There are no more mines, there are no more jobs, and their identity is kind of stuck in the past. There is no future ahead of them.” - Diane Sara Bouzgarrou

Time Stamps:

03:30 - How The Last Hillbilly was received, and how the pandemic affected its release.
06:18 - A brief synopsis of the film.
09:41 - How the directors met Brian Richie and built such a strong bond with him.
13:53 - Why they decided to go to Kentucky and make a film there.
16:06 - What the Appalachian region is like.
19:57 - The stereotypes of Appalachian people that are true and those that are not.
27:46 - Why they decided to structure the story in the way they did.
37:36 - What Academy Ratio means and why they chose to film in that format.
41:21 - The effect the soundtrack has, and how the creative process of the soundtrack worked.
48:34 - The issues around accessibility when creating such a creative film.
53:25 - What the future for rural America is.
56:20 - The divide that is present within America.
01:00:40 - The future plans Diane and Thomas both have.

Resources:

The Last Hillbilly (2020)
Jay Gambit
Alamo Pictures
This is Distorted

Transcript for Factual America Episode 48: The Last Hillbilly of Rural Appalachia

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 0:01
Hello, everybody. I'm Diane Sara Bouzgarrou. And I'm French filmmaker.

Thomas Jenkoe 0:09
And I'm Thomas Jenkoe. And I'm also French director and I'm also a cinematographer.

Speaker 1 0:27
Fuck the ones in the space. Fuck the ones on the Moon. Fuck the ones on Neptune. Fukc the ones on Pluto. Fuck everything.

Speaker 2 0:41
So you want to know about hillbillies. Hillbilly is a word that's stuck in the past. We got about 100 years of coal mining. It totally changed everything. We went from like mountainers to like a bunch of dirty coal miners, to a bunch of ignorant, out of work, hillbillies in three generations.

Everybody knows that we're uneducated, poor, violent, racist, inbread, it's all true.

Speaker 1 1:26
Dad, I wish I had a gameboy.

Speaker 2 1:30
All this shit is very new. You're trapped by all that. I'm the last hillbilly. You know why? I was the last free kid in America.

Intro 1:45
That is the trailer for the award winning documentary The Last Hillbilly, and this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. Today we're talking about a part of America that is vanishing before our eyes, specifically rural Appalachia, as chronicled in the documentary The Last Hillbilly. Joining us are the directors and writers Diane Sara Bouzgarrou and Thomas Jenkoe. Diane and Thomas, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 2:20
Well, as good as it can be under, under this situation.

Matthew 2:26
Yeah, we've had a one of, we had a director on from California, he described it, he's COVID good.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 2:34
Well, we just...

Thomas Jenkoe 2:36
That's a good answer.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 2:37
Yeah. Now, it's a weird, weird moment to live. And we're kind of looking forward to be alive again.

Matthew 2:48
Exactly, and all that that actually means. So we're talking about the film The Last Hillbilly, premiered late last year, I think. Won Best International doc at the Torino Film Festival, you get a special mention at IDFA under the first appearance category. Variety describes as "The Last Hillbilly takes a poetic look at the demise of white, rural America." Thanks so much for coming on to the podcast. And congratulations, as you've already alluded to 2020 was quite and has been quite a challenging time for most of us. But in many ways, it's been an incredible year for you two, hasn't it?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 3:31
Well, yes, we've been very, it was so strange, because we just finished editing the film like a week before the lockdown in France. So we were like, completely pumped up and happy and excited. And it was, it seemed far away, the virus seemed very far away from us. And suddenly, it just became this whole thing that kind of stopped the world space. So it was, it's kind of like bittersweet. It's like we were very lucky that the film is a success in the festivals that can happen. It's loved and it's understood. So we feel very grateful. Because this is kind of, it's a particular film, we took some risk, and we're very happy that people received the film so well. And at the same time, it's kind of hard to have your first feature film kind of interrupted by this particular year. So we're very happy that we got to live this film festivals, even from afar like in Amsterdam and Torino, we couldn't be there. But we're very, very happy and really grateful to have this prizes and interviews. So yeah, it's been a, in a way, it's been a very beautiful year for us.

Matthew 5:01
How is the, I mean, is it available to stream? Is this been, had a wider release yet?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 5:08
No, it hasn't. It's a film that was supposed to go out in theaters in France, like in December. So it's gonna hopefully it'll be out in theaters whenever it's possible.

Thomas Jenkoe 5:26
Maybe in spring.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 5:28
We hope now in spring and then so far, we are looking for that, and it's not going to be streamed online for now.

Matthew 5:41
Okay. Well, we'll keep an eye out for it, because I'm sure this will see the the light of day. I'm certain of that. If you don't mind, I mean, so unless they've been at part of the some of these festivals, very few of our listeners will have seen this film. I'll leave it to whichever one of you want to answer this. But maybe give us a little bit of a synopsis of the film, what is The Last Hillbilly about?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 6:17
Well, it's a film about a world that is kind of on the verge of disappearing, or there is a sense of an era that comes to an end. And it's embodied in the path of a man that's called Brian Ritchie that lives in eastern Kentucky, who is the hillbilly, which is a word that is famous in America, but it's not that famous outside of it. And so it's kind of, it's an insult, like, it's a cliche of people that live in Appalachia. And so it's, we go through his mental and daily path. And it's a fresco on several years on how this man captures and goes through this moment where he realizes that he lives on a wasteland, and that what was before is no longer here. And what the cliche represented in a bad way, is no longer here nonetheless, because it's an area that was once very much isolated and kind of lived, kind of like, the pioneers, like the people that came to America. And then the War on Poverty arrived, and they understood they were poor, and didn't know that. And then the mines came to the Appalachian Mountains, and they suddenly became caught up in this identity of being miners and the land was wasted, and jobs went away. And so there's like a huge gap in their identity and in their existence. So it kind of, it's a long synopsis, I'm sorry, but kind of is the interior journey into this period of time.

Thomas Jenkoe 8:23
Yeah, I can add some, a few words about the cinematic approach of the film, because we tried to develop an immersive and poetic approach. And the film for first tells the life of Brian who is our protagonist, and to dive into his stream of consciousness and with with a late voice of, of his poems.

Matthew 8:52
I think, it wasn't too long. You've touched on a lot of points that I think we wanted to talk about, and we'll discuss it in more detail. And including your approaches to telling this story, I think, which is extremely interesting. But let's talk a little bit more about Brian Ritchie himself. I mean, he's your protagonist. I would call him a hillbilly poet, as you say the word hillbilly, for those who don't know, yes, it's derogatory, maybe not quite as, I don't know. It's like redneck or hick in American English, you know. But he's a very interesting individual that you've brought to the big screen. So maybe you can tell us a little bit more about this man Brian Ritchie.

Thomas Jenkoe 9:42
First of all, we met him by chance in 2013 in the parking of a fast food in Kentucky, but it was not in the east of Kentucky. It was in the West, And he was very surprised to see some French people in his place. And he heard us talking in French. And he decided to come to us. And we talked a bit. And then he said to us, oh, you know, I can introduce you to the true Kentucky, which is my place, which is in Appalachia. So if you want to, you can go with me tomorrow to my place to Appalachia. So that was the first meeting with Brian.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 10:40
Yeah, and we were like, incredibly lucky to find this man, because he's quite a man. Like, it's unbelievable. We met him by chance. And so we really, it was really, at first, it was really like a friendship, a strong friendship between us. Because he was very eager to explain us what was behind this expression hillbilly. And at first, he was very kind of, he was quite, at first, he was quite positive. He was in this moment where he was like, really finding this insult, he was kind of taking this insult and trying to make something out of it. And at first, it was something that he was really eager to share. And also, while we lived in his trailer, in Appalachia, the whole time we filmed, which is like kind of from 2015 to 2019, we lived with him and his family. And so we got to be very close to him. And he's a terrific poet, he's very talented. And we discovered his texts, like he had all kinds of notebooks. And we were very struck by his, the power of his words and his poems. And he kind of instantly became a character, like he had this charisma, he had this way of putting out in words a very strong testimony of what was going on, both in his inner world and in the outer world, which was kind of all even bigger than just Eastern Kentucky and what Appalachia was going through. So it was kind of obvious, very quickly, that this men needed the film to be done with and on him. It was like, we just, we just met this character on the road, you know.

Matthew 12:43
It strikes me that, it says a lot about him. I mean, he heard, he recognized you're French or at least foreign. And just approaches you. I mean, this isn't a typical person anywhere. I mean, not just in Kentucky.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 12:56
He's very curious, very bright, and he is this weird, self taught intellectual. That really was, it was very important to him that we were strangers, and that we didn't have any idea of the hillbilly meaning. So we're kind of virgin on this identity. So I think it was important for him. Because if we would have been, like New Yorkers, or somewhere elsewhere in America...

Thomas Jenkoe 13:29
it would have been very complicated.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 13:32
Yeah. Because there is this whole cliche and the weight of the cliche, and so it's kind of like both sides look at each other with defiance. And so we were out of that equation immediately.

Matthew 13:47
Just quick question, what were two French filmmakers doing on vacation in Kentucky?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 13:53
That's exactly our point. We wanted to be in the smallest remote place in America. We wanted to go out of the touristic path.

Thomas Jenkoe 14:06
That's what we were looking for, at this moment.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 14:09
We kind of decided like we wanted to go, kind of to the south of America. And we happen to have heard about the feuds, the families fighting each other in the beginning of...

Matthew 14:23
The Hatfields and McCoys.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 14:24
Exactly. We're like, what the hell is going on in a small town in Kentucky? And the funny thing is that we called to, we booked a hotel in London. And so when we called them, they were like, you're sure you want London, Kentucky. This is not London, England. And we were like, yeah. And people kept asking us like, you're here on purpose. Really? We were like yeah. It was kind of, it was a trip like it was a vacation, but we kind of already knew we wanted to work together. We are, we both kind of worked in the shadow of both our films, made by Thomas or by me. And we had this kind of interest, this passion for the American history, like the violence of this territory, we wanted to do a film about America in America.

Thomas Jenkoe 15:22
And Kentucky is a very interesting state, because it's a flyover state and nobody wants to go there. And nobody cares about Kentucky. So that's why it was so interesting for us.

Matthew 15:41
Well, that's the thing that brings us to, let's follow up on that. Tell our listeners something about rural Eastern Kentucky. I'm originally from the US, I've been to Kentucky, but actually haven't been to Eastern Kentucky. But what is Appalachia and that part of the world like? Especially for two people from France?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 16:06
Well, it's beautiful, first of all. Because it's like, the Appalachian Mountains are very, very beautiful, even if it's the end of the mountains. So it's mainly hills, and it's very isolated, like, you're in the center of America, but it kind of feels like you're out of America, because people are so far away from the world, the city. They have a very strong mountain life, like they can feel that people live of the land, they live for the land, they are kind of, they feed in the mud of Kentucky. They're very, there's this long tradition, it's a place where the generation of like the grandparents, the older people, they lived in conditions that are very far from our conditions, because they didn't have like roads. They were very, very much isolated until like the 1950s or something. And so it's mainly hills, and it's a lot of, Kentucky was really built on this family clans that were like kind of fighting each other for a long, long time. And so there is a lot of people that have relatives in the county. And so it's very much clanic, I would say. And, and people leave on the bottom of the hill or on top of hills. And there is a long tradition of being kind to one another, like being helpful to one another and so...

Thomas Jenkoe 17:58
And to be self sufficient.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 18:00
Yeah, there is a strong desire to, not to be submissive and to be submitted to the federal state. As French people, it's kind of weird, because we expect everything from the States. And in America, in general, we kind of felt that was kind of the opposite. No, we don't want your help. It's kind of weird for us, but interesting. And in Kentucky, you can add that because you don't really see much, not in Kentucky, but in this particular area, in Appalachia, you don't really see much of like representants of the states. So you kind of feel isolated and free in a way. But at the same time, there are downsides that you kind of are living under the laws that are just made by humans.

Matthew 19:04
It's interesting, cuz given that I'm from America originally, I will bring my own sort of prejudices probably to this whole conversation, but...

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 19:14
Where are you from?

Intro 19:15
I'm originally from Texas. So you know, there's reputational issues there as well. But I mean, this is interesting, because you've already kind of alluded to this. You came to this, as you said, almost like virgins. You had no knowledge of what to expect. Because I was gonna say, you know, there's a stereotype Appalachia - in the most positive way, it's coal mining it's poor it's, you know, all these things. And so did you completely had no idea or did it live up to any of these stereotypes? And how did it defy the stereotypes that you had, if you had any going in?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 19:57
We kept like, we kind of based our thoughts about what we lived there. And Brian was a very interesting to be with because he, we understood that the stereotype was like, as any stereotype, true and false. It was much more complex. So what we experienced ourselves was, we were very generously welcomed. And people were nice to us and probably also more at ease with us because we were introduced by one of them, which is Brian. And we were, it was very important for us to be accepted, we understood that there was, there's downside of wanting to be alone, is that you can also have a little, maybe defiance is a strong word, but in English, I can't find the lower word, but we understood that we had to, we wanted to be immersed and to be accepted and to live amongst them and to be kind of, slowly became a part of the family and their circle of friends. And so the cliche is that's why we have this scene with Brian adressing the camera to say, yes, we're hillbillies, yes, we're this, we're that, we are what you think of us. But at the same time, we're not, and at the same time, how can we live under such circumstances that we are in nowhere, and we don't have, we don't even have enough to be hillbillies anymore. So it was kind of... you want to talk I feel you wanna talk...

Thomas Jenkoe 21:51
For me, it was weird, because I didn't know what to expect about going there. But when I was there, it was, it reminded me something about my own life. Because I come from a very, poor, white trash family in France. I come from the Northern France, we've got some problem with the mines industry. My dad was a farmer. And, I've got so many stuff in common with these people. And for me, it was very, very weird to face that, at this moment. So it gave me a key to understand how it works.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 22:45
Yeah, we're not very much interested in having this stereotype be the subject of our films. It was more how, like the perspective of the past and the present and the future. And how, no matter what identity it is, it is an identity that has, of course, that can sometimes relate to the cliche, and sometimes completely go against the cliche. So it was kind of like a very dense experience of the stereotype. But what we're most interested in is, Brian was kind of like questioning this, this culture and questioning this moment of history, because they're stuck in a very, like, long death in a way because there is nothing left for them to live. There is no more mines, there is no more jobs, and their identity is what he says, is kind of stuck in the past. And there is no future ahead of them. So we were more interested in filming and really understanding that more than to kind of, you know, it would have been probably an easier approach to just be like, Oh, yeah, let's film the white trash America, which it wasn't. We were very close to them, even though they were of course, some stuff that we maybe didn't agree on or something. But we we wanted to be more profound and like to just really seize the moment, which was a very interesting moment because Brian was really capturing something that relates to hillbillies. But of course, we're very much about our world today. And anyone can relate to what he says I think. Even outside of Appalachia.

Matthew 24:52
I think that brings us to to a good point for an early break for our listeners, and we'll be right back with Diane and Thomas after this quick message about Alamo pictures.

Factual America midroll 25:06
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Matthew 25:25
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Diane Sara Bouzgarrou and Thomas Jenkoe, the directors of The Last Hillbilly. We've been talking a lot about your experiences making the film, about Eastern Kentucky, Brian Ritchie, and how, you know, maybe I've kind of derailed the conversation a little bit talking about stereotypes, which you didn't really bring to the table, but that you really wanted to explore this sort of this historical perspective, the past, present and future and how it's embodied in this one man and his family as Brian Ritchie. And what strikes me, I mean, we've already talked about him being a poet, a philosopher, he's very emotionally intelligent, bright. If you want to go to stereotypes, he's not your typical hillbilly, certainly that people are thinking of. He says some, we don't have any clips, but he said some very interesting things, some profound things that I had never thought of. He even brings up this whole point, this whole hillbilly identities, only three generations, right, which I thought was very interesting. You know, they were mountaineers, and as you said, they kind of haven't discovered, they didn't even know they were poor, until you had the different programs of the 20th century that were put in place to raise living standards in that region. And in a blink of an eye from a even human history standpoint, it's all gone. You know? And where do they go to next? I think you've captured that extremely well. Going back to, you know, in this era of documentary filmmaking becoming, well a lot of it's quite entertaining and quite excellent on its own. But you've kind of almost gone back to the roots of documentary filmmaking, I would say. It's very observational, except it's not purely observational. And so maybe we can start looking at the making of this film further. I mean, how did you decide to create this film that you've made? And how did you, let's start with how did you decide to structure the story? Because that's interesting.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 27:47
Well, it took us a long time. Because we really had, our vision kind of stayed the same throughout the years of producing it. We wanted to have a film that would be aesthetically very innovative. And that we would want to create a documentary, that per se, wouldn't be necessarily what you expect of a documentary. We wanted to dive into his stream of consciousness, and create a moment that is more poetic than narrative. And so create shots, create an editing, that would make things interact in something that would not be necessarily understandable. So we wanted to dive into his stream of consciousness and express that moment in a way, and then go out of it and have more like an immersive experience of his encounters and his daily life. And we filmed for so many years. And we kind of like, experienced living with Brian and his family, because we really were very close to them. And they welcomed us very generously. So we could really sense what was going on years after years. And at first, we wanted to film what it is to be a hillbilly, the interactions, the strong relationship you have to your land and all that. But then we kind of understood that there was something at stake that's, something was going on, which was, it was getting darker and darker. And you could feel Brian becoming more and more a witness, a desperate witness of the exhaustion of this land and somehow, he kind of saw this moment, which is weird because we finished the film, we begin our film with an epidemic and because we felt that there was something about death that was happening, like in every, every sense of the word. And so that's what we realized going through the editing process, is that we had, we could have decided to just make the film based on the footage we had the last year, in 2019. But we really felt it would be very powerful and beautiful to have this kind of thread that goes throughout, that goes through some years and where the children grow up and time passes. And even though there is not a date that can tell you time is passing by, you somehow feel that. And so the structure of the film was changed from the...

Thomas Jenkoe 30:56
From the beginning to the end of the editing, yeah.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 30:59
And also from the writing process through the editing process. It was kind of a very important moment for us, the editing part. Because we had all that, it's kind of always the same in documentary, you have all this collected material and you have to find one path inside. So we had like 130 hours of shooting. So we had a lot of hours and a lot of options. We had tried all kinds of ways of directing. And it was a moment to be affirmative and to decide, okay, this is the story, this is a story of one man, Brian Ritchie. And this is his inner path that we want to express. And at the same time, through this inner journey, we want to meet the ones that stayed, the ones that are here, still here. We want to, the audience to feel all the ghosts that are amongst them, because some passed away, some left, some cannot come back. And then we wanted to project Brian into the future and to, for him to kind of not disappear but his voice stops. Because his speechless in front of that catastrophe. For the kids, which we loved and loved filming with, they take over the film. And they create their, they're playing in the ruins of this world. And they make something out of it. We don't know what. We know there is a heavy cloud over the head, but they have a life because they're kids. So that's kind of how we decided to structure the film. It's like, what is the beginning, and the beginning is this epidemic, which is kind of ...

Thomas Jenkoe 32:58
Because it's a story of contamination. Contamination of this, which goes through the theme.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 33:08
Yeah, we wanted to have that, you say prologue in English? Yeah, we wanted to open the film on, because we heard about this epidemic that killed all these deers, one summer. And people said, yeah, it smelled like death. And we saw all these bodies in the waters, deers were dying. And we were not there that summer to film that. But it struck us that it was a powerful story. And we decided to open the film on that, because it was kind of a metaphor of what the region was experiencing. And it was a way of opening the documentary on a...

Thomas Jenkoe 33:51
It's a tale, it's a tale which very fastly becomes a nightmare.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 34:02
Yeah. We had this text that he screamed, this kind of, like a preacher does. And he wrote that for us, like he decided to do that. We came one summer and he was like, Oh, I have this recording. And it was very important for us to use that because it's how Brian, it's the journey through the violent days of the beginning of America. And he goes through all this amazing preach that arrives to his situation.

Matthew 34:39
I found the opening quite powerful. Yeah, you do, spoiler alert, for those who haven't seen it yet. You know, it starts off, you're seeing scenes of wildlife and these deer that are essentially dying from some sort of fever that they have, and you've got the voiceover of Brian's poetry basically. And then something we'll get to as well, is the sound that is combined with, that goes along, which is quite evocative. And I guess, is it fair to say then that you do have these three chapters. And that's, so another spoiler alert, just so you're aware, it's not chronological. It's just, maybe we could say it's thematic, but you've got, you start with the under the family tree, and then you've got wasteland. And then you end with the land of tomorrow. Which kind of makes sense, as you say, you end up with the children. And these adorable children actually, you've captured some, I was describing one of the scenes to my daughter, who's like 16 years old. And she goes, yeah, that's what kids would do with a fish if they found a dead fish. Yes, there's a whole scene about two children finding a dead fish. That gives you kind of a, you know, some idea of what we're talking about here. But it is, it more than serves a purpose. It's very, you're letting the cameras roll and you're capturing so much. And as you said, you had 130 something hours, I don't know how you decide what hour and 15 minutes that you go with. But, I think it's very, as you've said, I think what you wanted to achieve is something more poetic. And stream of consciousness, I think, is the best word for this. It's almost like a Faulkner, it's like a Faulkner novel. I mean, you don't think, you don't think chronologically in stream of consciousness. None of us think really chronologically. Well, I happen to do that, I'm a bit strange. But you know, your mind goes all over the place. Something, a smell, will trigger this memory or you'll see something that triggers that. And then you'll start thinking of the future, and it all gets all wrapped up. And hence, yes, you've taken this whatever this four to five years of filming, and mashed it all up to achieve this. And speaking of filming, I mean, some have made much of this, but why did you film in Academy ratio? Except for, you know, in the beginning, you weren't there for the filming. So you took what, someone else filmed some of the scenes. But why, maybe you can explain to our listeners what Academy ratio means and then why you've chosen to film in that format.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 37:36
It was a choice that we made very early on. And I think it was because there was kind of the temptation of filming these landscapes, kind of like, you know, the westerns, it's very beautiful scenery. And we wanted to kind of go maybe in different approach of the tradition and be like close to the bodies and close to like to the square format. It's kind of more vertical. So, as we wanted to film from the earth to the sky, it was kind of like a filming being closer to the bodies then, and discovering the space surrounding them by being in interaction with their bodies. And it also was kind of like a way of showing that the American myth is kind of like fragmented and kind of already destroyed. And you can have like bits of pieces of it, but you can't really have the whole cinemascope. Because it is, it has to do with some thing that we felt there, which was kind of, America is kind of crumbling, there is this kind of divisions. And we wanted to film what's left of it. And so it was, this choice and also the fact that, as photographers do, they take photos and then sometimes they reframe. And they change the point of view slowly like just maybe being a bit more on the bottom or on the left. And so we were very much interested in the work of Mark Cohen, which is a photographer that, he's photographed the same small town in Pennsylvania. And he had this weird angles and we were very much interested in capturing the movement of life and entering life and being able to express it, not especially with just like a steady shot, wide angle and all that. And so it was a way also of being able to work on our frames after we have shot that. It doesn't mean that we were like yeah, we can film however we want and we'll work that on the editing. No, it was, it was to give us the latitude to be able to really choose how we would frame the shot we edited.

Thomas Jenkoe 39:10
And the square format is a way to come back to the birth of cinema. I mean, for the formatting the beginning of the cinema, which is very interesting, because I think, you cannot really tell in which year the film had been done. Because of the format and because of the colors and all.

Matthew 40:38
Okay. And then combine that, obviously, just as important is sound. And, I think, you could have been fine. It could have, I mean, first of all, we've got Brian's poetry, his voiceover. Or he even speaks to camera. And then obviously, we have the different people in the film talking to each other. But then you also added on Jay Gambit's music and well sounds that go along with it. How did you come about putting that into the film? And, you know, maybe you can say a little more about that.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 41:21
Yeah, so it's Jay Gambit, and it's co-composed with Tanya Byrne, which is, we knew we wanted to work with Jay. Because we knew his band Crowhurst and we wanted to have noise music from the beginning. We knew the music would have importance in our film, probably didn't expected the music to have that particular place in our film. But it was very interesting because Tanya and Jay and San, who recorded the music, we had them come over during the editing process. And we were late. And so it was supposed to be a moment where we would have them compose the soundtrack, the original soundtrack. But we were supposed to be more advanced in the editing process. And we were running late. So we're very anxious, you have no idea. And so they came, and we had them coming over to France. And for four days, they worked. And we showed them, we had one rough cut. So it was very the first version we had, which was horrible, as any first rough cuts. But somehow, they watched the film, we were completely like, Oh my God.

Thomas Jenkoe 42:49
And they understood very well what we were trying to do.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 42:53
Yeah, they understood even things that we couldn't even, like the whole dimension of the minds, this past that is still here and it's kind of fading away. They really got that. And they got the melancholy of how we film childhood and so they worked on that first rough cuts. And for three days, we were like, stressed out because we were like, in the very early stages of editing. And they, at the very end, they said, well, we don't we have the soundtrack for you. And so they played for us this 45 minutes of different musics. And I remember we were like, I was in tears because I was so exhausted and stressed about the film. And suddenly we had this person that understood what we're going to do in advance of us, kind of, and so it was kind of a gift. And it helped us during the editing process because we decided to have music that would be part of the narration. So it wouldn't be just illustrative, but it would really be one of the elements we would put together to create a moment. So they created a very melancholic soundtrack. And we built a lot of, not all of the film, but like some moments are built on making sequences that, it was also editing thing, that we wanted to open scenes and have them intermingle. So we open one scene and we go to another one, and another one. And then you come back. So the music goes up and down and you hear, we tried to work on what we gave as an information, a verbal information. Because usually, in documentaries you have a lot of interviews, and you give this verbal information to the people, the audience. And we really wanted to try to express something with words, but not like, we had a lot of interviews, we decided not to use them. But to try to express, like, for instance, the meth epidemic, the drugs that are really a major thing in Appalachia, we had a whole interview, but we thought with just this part of the poem and the melancholy we were going to have to create with the music and how the images interact. We really tried to create moments where you can receive all the information you need to understand what's going on. And the music helps very much on that.

Thomas Jenkoe 45:51
The music brings back the ghost of the past from the area, which was very important for us from the beginning.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 46:02
Or it can precipitate the future. Like for instance, the end of the film, the music is very, it's kind of like, so you see this dead fish, I don't want to spoil. There is a funny scene and a very funny, weird scene. But then suddenly, you take some perspective, and the music gets tragic in a way and dark. And suddenly you watch them from afar. And you understand the future is ahead. And it's not, and it's a menace in a way, to this children. So it was really, really a major element of creating our film.

Matthew 46:50
I think, what struck me while watching it, is that, and I think I have the link for one more day, so I'll have another look. It is definitely, I felt like is one of these films, you're gonna want to watch much more, you're gonna want to watch it more than once. Because it's like, every time you watch it, you're going to pick up on something. Because you're not spoon feeding anything. And I think that's great. You didn't put the interviews in. Yes, there is, I mean, it doesn't pretend, you don't have to have a knowledge about these things. But if you do have a little bit of a knowledge of what's happening in parts of, or much of America and certainly and specifically in this part of it. Yeah, you know, there is this reference to, we don't know who this person is, but someone who, at least I didn't catch a reference, but someone obviously dear to Brian has passed away because of the oxycodone or whatever the different drugs are, the opiates. And, you know, you get a lot of, there's a lot of this, I'm sure if I watch it again, I'm going to realize, Oh, that's what that is referring to. But, you know, but at the same time, you don't need to watch it more than once to appreciate what you're trying, what you're saying? I guess, do you ever worry about, because I was gonna lead right into where you'd left off. but one thing - do you worry about, in making an artistic film, a poetic film as you have, do you worry about accessibility of the viewers? Is that something that concerns you when you were putting this together?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 48:35
Yeah, we're definitely concerned by the audience and to trust the audience also and trust that he or she would enter the journey and grab enough information to be comfortable enough to go through the film without leaving. It was a very, very important question when we edited, is that we were not just in a bubble like we worked with our producer, we had some feedbacks regularly on what the audience expressed of all the stages of the editing process. And so, yeah, it definitely is not something that we, we want the film to be loved and to be seen. And even though we know that there are some challenges, like for instance, the fact that you don't have a cardboard telling you where it is, who they are, how long we filmed, etc. We know there are some moments where you can be a bit lost. But, at the same time, it's okay, as long as you have enough branches to grasp. And we definitely, were very much concerned about how an audience could react to this. And we wanted to do a film that was short, from the beginning. And, as you say, to us, it's very important that what's real is not just what you see and hear, like right now. What's real is how you project yourself, and suddenly you are reminded of something of the past, and then you are in the past.

Thomas Jenkoe 50:33
And how you can feel the image, the images, the sound, and it's a very, I think it's a very personal pass in the in the film. I mean, every person who watches the film can have a different approach of it, can have a different feeling about it, can tell to himself or herself a different story about the film, which is very important for us.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 51:05
Yeah, and we were, that's why we were very happy when the film came out, is that it was loved by, not all the people loved it. But I mean, those who got an interest in it, were very broad audience. It was not like made to be seen by three intellectuals in Paris. But we knew there was a challenge mainly on the first part. We knew that, and we worked very hard for it to be not a challenge, but to be something you accept to be, like in this weird river and going okay, you know. So we knew that the last part was the part that was more easy to understand and to love. And we knew that the first part was the most challenging in terms of comprehension, and all that. But we stuck to our plan and with stuck to our faith in the fact that it is an experience and...

Thomas Jenkoe 52:13
And it's a trip.

Matthew 52:16
Well, and well done you. Because, I mean, it must be quite a challenge to stick to those convictions and guns when you, I mean, you probably had some people around you telling you no, no, you're doing it, that works. And as you said with the producers and stuff, but you know, it could be very easy to step back and say, wait a minute, this is or do something a bit more, more traditional. But I think, as you say, that what's good about the intro is that it throws the gauntlet down, it basically says, Look, you're not watching your typical film or documentary here. So pay attention, you know. And one thing you were talking about recently, just earlier was that, you know, and then you talk about the ending. And it's, well, as he said, We don't any spoiler alert, you know, spoilers here, but, you know, it is you've brought in the melancholic music and things. I mean, what lessons have you drawn from this experience? I mean, where do you think rural America's heading or at least Eastern Kentucky?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 53:27
That is a tough question.

Thomas Jenkoe 53:29
It seems to come to an end, in a way.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 53:35
No, end it's like....

Thomas Jenkoe 53:37
I mean, in a way, any other way? I think it's a chance to create something new there. That's what we try to say with the end of the film. I mean, that's why we wanted to finish the film with the kids, for instance, because the kids are the future.

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 54:06
Yeah, at the same time, we end on oilmen. I don't want to say it, but yeah. There will be no end, that's the problem is that, it is just slowly fading away. Because for just one reason, there is no wealth, there is no jobs, and no other industry comes because it's so far away and isolated that it's not worth it. So it is a problem for this part of rural America, as far as the other rural America in general. I don't think we have the pretension to be able to, like we are two French filmmakers so we know what we feel about this particular place. But as for rural America, it's hard to say because we have experienced just one small part of it.

Matthew 55:08
I think that's a very fair point and is actually, we had a podcast, first season actually, we dealt with the other side of the Appalachian Mountains, about West Virginia, but very similar issues, a county that, I don't even think they have a supermarket anymore, you know, because all the jobs have disappeared and these sorts of things. But, as observers, as someone who's documenting things, and I take you up on your point about not saying it, you know, not even pretending to think you can say anything more beyond what you've already lived and observed in terms of Eastern Kentucky, but you're flying in and out of the United States, you must see, do you see two Americas? Do you see urban and rural, red and blue, rich and poor, leading and left behind? Is this something that strikes you? Or is it more, am I trying to maybe read too much into this and that you, what you're really just trying to show is this very geographically specific corner of the world and what's happening there?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 56:21
No, it can read like, it talks about way more than just this lands. It is true that, I don't know if there's two, but it sure is a divided world. And you can feel the kind of the seizmic plate or whatever moving and disrupting the present. So definitely there is a strong difference between, but if not, I don't know, if it's rural versus cities, it's more about who's rich and who's poor. And the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. And you can have, people may be closer to the person we feel maybe in the worst neighborhood of LA or something, maybe. I mean, it's more about the, it's also the winners and the losers, and the people that can't project themselves, because they like, what we understood of America is that it is a very violent country. Because it's like, you have no help. And it's very hard to make a living. And so we understood that it is very socially violent. Because in France, for instance, we do have poverty, but we have all kinds of, there is a system of help and assistance that there is not really in America. So it's very, very easy. To us, it seemed to be very easy to go on, to be at an extreme point of not being able to have a house. And though in rural America, at least in Appalachia, they do have the trailers and they still get to have a trailer because it's not that expensive to have, apparently. But yeah, but it is. It is, as Thomas said, it can let people in the north of France could relate because there's no jobs, keep the industries took everything out of them, and then push them aside and said, Okay, we're done with you. So it's also the end of, like the result of capitalism and our current world is that, well, even our current situation, it is we have, there is a limit, that we we seem to have reached. And to live in a world where the future is unknown, and scary for the children concerns all kinds of person, not just the Appalachians. So there are some some stuff that are very much on Appalachia, but it's that's what we wanted to do is a film that would not be stuck. That's why we resisted a lot to to the here and now is that we wanted to have a film that you can watch from afar and not especially just related to 2016 or 2017 and not just be this feeling about Appalachia to have like a larger perspective.

Thomas Jenkoe 59:40
Because what happens is happens everywhere in the world. I mean, so

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 59:46
Yeah, it is a something that we felt, is that Brian had this in front of his eyes, but what he captured of this moment of history is way deeper and weigh concerns way more people than just just his family. And he's the hillbillies.

Matthew 1:00:11
I think I'm gonna leave it there. I think that's a perfect way to finish in terms of talking about this film, which I highly recommend whenever it is available that people go and watch it. Because I think it does have, we've talked a lot about Eastern Kentucky, but it does have these universal themes that you've, just now so well described. And so, yes, the future is scary, but what is next for YouTube?

Diane Sara Bouzgarrou 1:00:41
Well, another film, I guess, and hopefully, yeah, well, first of all, we, we are looking forward to the film, to come out in theaters in France, and also to continue this journey outside of France that we acquired the two film festivals that we were selected in abroad were amazing. And we have great international sales, persons that work hard. So we very much hope that the film will be seen in UK in all kinds of countries. So there's that. And then, meanwhile, while we are on this weird moment where kind of everything is interrupted, we were writing again, trying to project ourselves in the future.

Matthew 1:01:38
Well, we definitely look forward to seeing whatever the future brings for you in terms of next films and projects. And thank you, if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you on again sometime. Well, thank you so much. It's been great, it's hard to believe that that's one of the quickest hours, I think, hopefully for you too, I think I've experienced. So thank you so much for coming on. Just to reminde our listeners, we've had the pleasure of chatting with Diane Sara Bouzgarrou and Thomas Jenkoe. The directors of The Last Hillbilly. Also want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted Studios here in Leeds, England. And thank them for staying open during yet another national lockdown here in the era of COVID, even into 2021. And please remember to like and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America. Signing off.

You've been listening to actual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast, subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

The Last Hillbilly of Rural Appalachia

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