Stamping Out Racist Lies: America’s Truth
Racism is a blight upon the United States of America, and has been all through the country’s history.
In Stamped from the Beginning, a documentary film featuring and based on the book of the same name by Dr. Ibram X Kendi, director Roger Ross Williams explores the history of racist ideas in the US.
Using an innovative array of methods, including VFX, animation, and music, he explores how the Trans-Atlantic slave trade gave birth to racist ideas, and how racist myths regarding black hypersexuality and criminality still impact society today.
Roger and Ibram join Matthew Sherwood to discuss their film, its themes, and the role of black women, both in terms of studying racism and as the interviewees of Stamped from the Beginning. Roger also notes the reason why he uses pop culture to tell the story of racist ideas in the US. It isn’t despite the fact that it has been used over the years to perpetuate racist ideas but because of it.
Roger admits that making the documentary was hard. Fortunately, he liked the challenge! The result is a film that, as Matthew says, is both stimulating and uplifting. Racism may be a big part of the US’s story, but it is not the last word.
“We hope that people – through the film – can begin the process of unlearning any racist ideas about black people that they have internalised...and that they would also begin to learn anti-racist ideas of racial equality.” – Ibram X Kendi
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer
02:04 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guests, Roger Ross Williams and Dr. Ibram X. Kendi, director and writer of Stamped from the Beginning
05:10 – Roger and Ibram explains what Stamped from the Beginning is about
07:06 – Why Stamped from the Beginning features almost solely black female academics
08:31 – Why it is black female academics who are exploring the topic of racism
09:58 – Discussing some of the women featured in the documentary
11:04 – What Ibram hopes Stamped from the Beginning will achieve
12:09 – Roger talks about his and Ibram’s experience of racism and how they use it in the documentary
13:56 – The challenge of making a documentary out of a book
16:12 – Exploring some of the innovative techniques used to make Stamped from the Beginning
19:04 – Discussing whether the ‘upliting’ side to the film comes from the book on which it is based
20:22 – What lies behind Roger’s prodigious movie output
Resources:
Stamped from the Beginning
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Roger Ross Williams
Connect with Ibram X Kendi
More from Factual America:
The Rise and Fall of America's Most Corrupt Police Squad
They're Trying to Kill Us: Diet, Poverty and Racism
I Am Not Your Negro: Racism in the US
Transcript for Factual America Episode 149: Stamping Out Racist Lies: America’s Truth
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:04)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Oscar winning director Roger Ross Williams brings Dr. Ibram X. Kendi's best-selling book to life, using vivid animations and leading female scholars to explore the history of anti-black racist ideas. Both director Williams and Dr. Kendi join us to talk about the challenges of bringing a history of anti-black racism to the big screen. We also discuss the challenges facing young independent filmmakers in the so-called Golden Age of documentaries. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:41
Roger Ross Williams, Ibram X. Kendi, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Roger Ross Williams 00:47
Great! We're in London, actually.
Matthew Sherwood 00:50
Are you?
Roger Ross Williams 00:51
Yeah, we're in London right now. But we have a screening in a little while. But we had our European premiere last night in Amsterdam at the International Documentary Film Festival, Amsterdam. IDFA, the largest documentary film festival in the world.
Matthew Sherwood 01:06
Yes.
Roger Ross Williams 01:07
And it was - we got a standing ovation.
Matthew Sherwood 01:10
Wow.
Roger Ross Williams 01:11
That was really exciting. You know, the film has been really well received. We got when we premiered in Toronto International Film Festival, we had two standing ovations. We got a standing ovation at the end of the film, and we got a standing ovation at the end of our Q&A.
Matthew Sherwood 01:29
Well, that's quite - that's going to be really hard for me to live up to.
Roger Ross Williams 01:32
Yeah, but you can stand up.
Matthew Sherwood 01:33
Okay. If the applause of one works for you, then I'll do my best! Yeah, so, welcome again, it's a - congratulations on that. And it's a real honour to have both of you on, and just to remind our listeners and viewers we're talking about Stamped from the Beginning. You're here in London, it's the 15th of November, it's theatrical release here in the UK. And it will be streaming on Netflix, I gather, from November 20, I think, so...
Roger Ross Williams 02:04
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 02:05
So, those who - ideally I can say, because I have seen it, I saw it on a smaller screen, but I would have loved to have seen it on a big screen. And if I'd known you're in London, I would have - I'm outside of London, but I would have made my way down there.
Roger Ross Williams 02:19
Oh, that's always fun in person. We've been doing, like, a junket. We've been doing interviews.
Matthew Sherwood 02:23
Yeah. We've done a lot of these because of Covid and everything. We just got so used to doing everything via Zoom that - yes, I'd love to start doing things in person again. We have started doing the handful here and there. But I know our time is relatively limited, because I know that you - there's obviously much demand for your time and rightfully so, but how we usually start off with - if I just ask - I'll start with you, Roger, since we're talking first - well, we are talking about the film, but there's also it's based on Dr. Kendi's book - but what is the film, what is Stamped from the Beginning about? Maybe you can give us a synopsis?
Roger Ross Williams 02:59 (05:10)
It's the history of racist ideas. And in Ameri - in the US, well, it doesn't start in the US, but in the US, and the resistance against that. And it's, you know, and this film is structured around, you know, sort of nine lies. Nine lies, you know, told to us. Nine racist lies. And it is a, like - because I've used, like, sort of all the tools in the toolbox, VFX, and animation, and graphics, and fast cutting montage, and needle-drop music, and it's a very accessible ride through racism.
Matthew Sherwood 03:51
And, I mean, we - as I said, we are - time's limited, so I was gonna ask you, what do we get wrong about racism as a society in America. But you talked about these nine lies. I mean, maybe - or if Dr. Kendi wants to talk about this - what are the key things that you highlight in your book that are also highlighted in the film that you want - that, you know, you're trying to relay these things to audiences?
Ibram X. Kendi 04:14
Well, I think first we show in the film who created racist ideas and why; so, we go all the way back to 15th century Portugal and the emergence of the transatlantic trade of African people as really the origin story of racist ideas to then justify that human trading. We also show myths like black hypersexuality or black criminality and actually show how those - who created those myths and how they're still impacting society today.
Matthew Sherwood 04:56 (7:06)
Okay. And one thing that I'm - won't be the first one to note this, but what was interesting is that all this subjects and experts you bring on are women. And is that something that was reflected in your book, Dr. Kendi, how did, you know, how did you discover, uh, you know, what was it about it that you decided that it was going to be an all female - except for you, Dr. Kendi, I know you're in the doc as well - but that you'd have all these female experts, these academics.
Roger Ross Williams 05:30
Dr. Kendi loves to be surrounded by beautiful black women! No, I'm just kidding. You know, when I started to look at the list of academics and experts, I noticed that there were a lot of - an unusual number of black women, and they were doing the work around racism. And that - and I started to think about how black women have always been at the forefront of the resistance against these racist ideas, you know, in order to protect their families, their children, you know, and they've been doing this work, but never getting the credit and recognition. So, it was a huge statement in itself, to centre the film around black women.
Matthew Sherwood 06:20 (08:31)
Yeah. And why do you think it is that so many of the academics who are looking into this are black women?
Roger Ross Williams 06:30
Why is that? You tell me.
Ibram X. Kendi 06:33
I think because in many ways, black people are certainly the primary subjects of anti-black racist ideas, which has caused those of us, including myself, who've had to be - had to have - had to experience these ideas to want to really understand what they are, where they came from, who created them, and to even show their persistence, particularly in a society that in certain cases denies that persistence.
Matthew Sherwood 07:08
Indeed, women, too. I mean, you know, it's like - is it - I mean, I think, as you may be saying, if they - I think even in the film it says that, in many ways, it's, you know, as you say, they're at the forefront of defending their families, and if they, in many ways, have suffered more than - I mean, but obviously, black men and black women have suffered, but women have really especially suffered. And what I found also very interesting about this is the - there are characters, you know, there's a lot of great films out there, and ones that have people like James Baldwin in them and things like that, but there are these female figures that I had never heard of. And that, you know, and bringing them to life was really, I thought very, very compelling.
Roger Ross Williams 07:47 (09:58)
Yeah, well, I had never heard of many of these figures. I didn't really know Phillis Wheatley or Harriet Jacobs. I knew Ida B. Wells. But, so, it was - these were originators, and so, it was important to start at the beginning and give them the credit that they never received. Because they're not - we're not taught that in school. I wasn't taught these histories. And that's what was so eye opening about Dr. Kendi's book, because I learned so much. I learned that I myself was also, you know, victim of these racist ideas. They had infiltrated, you know, my thinking about black people.
Matthew Sherwood 08:40 (11:04)
And what do you hope - because we also talked about the making of the film, you've already alluded to some, like you said, you pulled everything out and, you know, used every tool in the toolbox with this film, and - but what is, I guess, is it the same as the book, do you - what do you hope this film achieves? I know, you know, I know filmmakers, don't - you want audiences to draw their own conclusions. But what is it you would hope that this film achieves with getting this message out?
Ibram X. Kendi 09:07
Well, I think we hope that people through the film can begin the process of unlearning any racist ideas about black people that they have internalised. That's prevented them from seeing racist policies and practices as the problem as opposed to black people. And that they would also begin to learn anti-racist ideas of racial equality so that we could build a human community of, you know, of difference that we - in which we appreciate everyone, and we work to create equity and justice for all.
Matthew Sherwood 09:50 (12:09)
Okay. And simply by, you know, and I guess a very good first step is just everyone acknowledging these myths And as you said, even, Roger, there were things that you hadn't realised you had been affected by.
Roger Ross Williams 10:05
Yeah. I mean, Dr. Kendi's - which book did you write first? The first you wrote this and then anti-racism. You know, in How to be an Antiracist...
Matthew Sherwood 10:15
Right.
Roger Ross Williams 10:15
... which was the number one New York Times bestselling book during the whole racial reckoning, he talks about his own - I mean, this is the guy who's steeped in this, and still, I mean, he can talk about it, I don't, you know.
Ibram X. Kendi 10:30
No, you can!
Roger Ross Williams 10:30
He still fell victim to these racist ideas about black people. So, you - it's so insidious, it's everywhere in - and that's why the film really uses popular culture, to - because it's really in popular culture that these racist ideas are, you know, sort of infect us through popular culture through Hollywood movies, and through television and media - journalism and media. All, you know, like, and so, we use those tool - and back, back in, you know, it was paintings, and it was art, and that's why we use it. And that's why these stories of these women are told - you painted in the art style of the period, because it was art that was the language that, you know, we used back, you know, back when Phillis Wheatley was writing poetry.
Matthew Sherwood 11:29 (13:56)
Yeah, well, I mean, now that we're talking about all the tools in the toolbox, I mean, how do you - I mean, Roger, how do you go about - how do you approach it? I mean, how did you get involved this project, but also, how do you approach you know, you've had great, you know, your films are very compelling about subjects, but how do you go about making a documentary about a book? You know, how do you approach that?
Roger Ross Williams 11:52
It's really hard.
Matthew Sherwood 11:54
Yeah.
Roger Ross Williams 11:54
And I liked the challenge of that. And, you know, there's not a lot of documentaries that really dive deep into the - into the - this stuff. And I had been, you know, I had tackled a number of books and written projects on this: Ta-Nehisi Coates, Between the World and Me, The 1619 Project for the New York Times and Oprah, and [...] Nicole, and I - and it was a - to me, it was like a challenge. It was like, Okay, you're gonna take this book that's over 500 pages long, and you're gonna make it into a ninety minute documentary, that's your challenge. You're going to make it accessible to the masses, and you're going to do it through the most - the biggest streaming platform in the world. I love a challenge.
Matthew Sherwood 13:03
Right.
Roger Ross Williams 13:06
Well, I actually challenged myself. I didn't - it's not like someone came to me and said, This is your challenge. I read the book. I was transformed by the book. And then I was like, Okay, I'm gonna create this challenge for myself. You know, because you can't. You know, once you - I'm at a place in my career, where I'm always wanting to challenge myself creatively. And, you know, it's why I made a fiction film recently. And it was like, Okay, this is a challenge. And I love that. And, you know, and to take on a challenge, and hopefully I've succeeded, is incredibly rewarding.
Matthew Sherwood 13:53 (16:12)
Well, I mean, I would say you've succeeded. And I would say - I mean, back to this, like you're saying, this presentation of these historical figures. And, you know, we've seen animations obviously before in documentaries, but this is quite innovative, isn't it? This sort of - taking this - yeah, taking live-action and mixing it with the art of the era. I mean, I don't know if I'm aware of that happening.
Roger Ross Williams 14:17
It's never been done before. And that was the challenge that, um, you know, me and David Teague, the writer, we said, you know, when we started talking about this, and throwing around ideas, we said, the first thing we said was, let's do something that's never been done before, which is almost like next to impossible, right.
Matthew Sherwood 14:36
Right, right.
Roger Ross Williams 14:37
Everything's been done before. Let's take the form of documentary and like, reinvent it. And we loved that. And we just, we just both [...] on and on about how this is going to be so innovative and so exciting, and I love doing that. I mean, I did a VR project called Travelling While Black. Innovative VR. Like, I'm - I just love the idea of innovative storytelling.
Matthew Sherwood 15:06
Right.
Roger Ross Williams 15:06
... that's exciting. And I get easily bored. And I get - and I need to be - I need to innovate in storytelling and it excites me to innovate. It challenges me as an artist.
Matthew Sherwood 15:20
And it's certainly more than just animation. I mean, it's such a visually stimulating film. And it's a combination of photos and archive and imagery and you confront us with a barrage of images, I may say.
Roger Ross Williams 15:35
Artworks.
Matthew Sherwood 15:35
... artwork...
Roger Ross Williams 15:36
... original artwork, graphics by amazing black women animate - amazing black women animators. You know, music is an incredibly powerful tool. And I love using you know, I love the composition and music and film. And so, Nate and Roman from Wonderland, our composers who are the composers for Janelle Monae and her company, created the score. And then, you know, the needle drop music, and the way it's handled is all part of it. It's all part of the tools in the toolbox, right. So, it's all part of the storytelling. And that's really fun. It was really fun making this. It's kind of a weird thing to say, It's really fun making a film about racism. But it was fun, creative - it was - the creative challenge was fun. It was also, like, hard and scary at times. And at times, I thought, Oh, I'm failing. That's good. Because failure and fear is a good thing.
Matthew Sherwood 16:55 (19:04)
And you were saying, you're making a film about racism, but it was fun. I mean, that's - I mean, Dr. Kendi, if I may say so myself, you're in the film, and you have to interview Angela Davis. I mean, that must have been a lot of fun. I mean, everyone comes across very positive in my view. I find it a - I mean, for the subject matter, I find it a very uplifting film. And I haven't had a chance to read the book. But is that something that you've also - the book does as well?
Ibram X. Kendi 17:30
Well, I mean, I certainly - in the book, there are a number of anti-racist voices that I think in many ways, uplift the overall story, and allow it to seem to be a battle that sometimes people who are committed to equality win, and so clearly, you know, that's uplifting, but at the very least, it's uplifting to see people fighting, over the course of history, you know, for a different way of sort of seeing themselves and seeing the world.
Matthew Sherwood 18:10 (20:22)
Well, we only have a few minutes left. So, we'll be - I guess we'll have to wrap up here, but I wanted to - Roger you said earlier you're easily bored. I was going to ask you what do you do with all your free time. If I'm correct, if IMDb is correct, you've got, like, five projects releasing this year, or something like - you've got a huge number that have come out...
Roger Ross Williams 18:34
I think it's more.
Matthew Sherwood 18:36
If you count each individual episode it's probably more.
Roger Ross Williams 18:39
No, no, I mean - yes, it's a lot. So, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 18:45
How do you do that?
Roger Ross Williams 18:48
It seems as though I'm, like, I have nine lives but actually, um, I - these projects took a long time. Cassandro took eight years to make...
Matthew Sherwood 19:04
Right.
Roger Ross Williams 19:05
... Stamped from the Beginning took three years to make. You know, Donna Summer took many years to make. The 1619 Project, High on the Hog has been a, you know, it's - we're on season two, it's been [...] all these projects have taken a long time. It's because of - partially because of the pandemic. Things got delayed and they all came out at the same time. So, it wasn't like I've cloned myself. It's really that I - that it's, you know, it's just come out this year because things, you know, were delayed and held back during this period of void that was the pandemic.
Roger Ross Williams 19:49
Thank you so much. Next time, we'll - you'll come and do it in person here.
Matthew Sherwood 19:53
I would love to do it in person. I think that would be wonderful. And if we could get a little more of your time. I know you're a busy man, but it's been a thrill. I really enjoyed your film. It's been great to talk with you and Dr. Kendi. So, just to remind our guests and - just to remind our listeners and our viewers, we've been talking with Roger Ross Williams, and Ibram X. - Dr. Ibram X. Kendi - about their wonderful film Stamped from the Beginning, theatrical release today, November 15 2023 here in the UK. Streaming on Netflix from November 20. Thank you so much, guys. It's been an honour to talk with both of you. And good luck with this film and the rest of all your PR and stuff that you're having to do for this.
Roger Ross Williams 20:40
Thank you. Thanks, Matthew.
Matthew Sherwood 20:41
All right, take care. Thank you. Bye bye.
Roger Ross Williams 20:43
Thank you.
Ibram X. Kendi 20:44
Thank you. Bye.
Matthew Sherwood 20:51
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout-out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
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