Mike Tyson: The Truth Behind the Knockouts
Mike Tyson, the former heavyweight champion, is considered one of the greatest boxers of all time. Unfortunately, he is just as famous for his exploits outside of the ring as he is for his many knockouts.
The new docuseries Mike Tyson: The Knockout is currently streaming on ABC and Hulu. Senior Executive Producer for original non-fiction content at ABC News, Roxanna Sherwood, joins us to discuss the film.
Roxanna shares how she collaborated with the Oscar-winning screenwriter Geoffrey Fletcher and Grammy-winning composer Terence Blanchard to create a new approach to Mike Tyson's story. She explains what it was like for Mike growing up, how he ended up in so many scandals, and why this story is relevant now more than ever.
“We are prone these days to shuffle things under the black and white. The grey has disappeared, but the truth is in the middle, the truth is grey.” - Roxanna Sherwood
Time Stamps:
00:14 - The trailer for Mike Tyson: The Knockout.
05:21 - The new context the documentary gives to Mike’s life.
08:54 - What it was like for Mike growing up in Brownsville, Brooklyn.
11:26 - First clip showing Brownsville in the 1970s and '80s.
13:40 - The difficulties Mike Tyson had as a boy.
16:48 - Second clip revealing the fortune Mike gained in a short period of time.
19:34 - The misguided trust Mike had in Robin Givens.
25:22 - Third clip looking at how Mike's lavish lifestyle turned self-destructive.
28:29 - Which knockout the title refers to.
30:43 - The rape committed by Mike Tyson and the subsequent trial.
37:36 - The importance of understanding unconscious bias and racism.
44:43 - Why this documentary is so relevant at the moment.
47:14 - How Geoffrey Fletcher and Terence Blanchard became involved with the film.
50:53 - The type of content ABC News will be making in the future.
53:30 - How to be a successful documentary filmmaker.
55:18 - What’s next for Roxanna.
Resources:
Mike Tyson: The Knockout (2021)
Precious (2009)
Careers in Film
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Roxanna Sherwood:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 63 - Mike Tyson: The Truth Behind the Knockouts
Roxanna Sherwood 00:01 I am Roxanna Sherwood, and I am senior executive producer of original non-fiction content for ABC News.
Mike Tyson 00:13 I've been listening to people tell me, I wasn't gonna do anything with my life.
Speaker 1 00:18 Mike is a complicated individual.
Speaker 2 00:22 He looked like he could kill somebody.
Rosie Perez 00:24 Mike Tyson was called the baddest man on the planet because he was the baddest man on the planet.
Speaker 3 00:29 I was terrified by that brother.
Speaker 4 00:32 He was a money-making machine.
Speaker 5 00:35 I never knew what Tyson I was going to get.
Speaker 6 00:38 His was the most recognizable face on the planet. More than the Pope, more than Queen Elizabeth, more than the President.
Speaker 7 00:44 There were three black men who ruled the world during this time. It was Michael Jordan, Michael Jackson, and it was Mike Tyson. And everybody wanted to be Mike. The only question was, 'Which Mike do you want to be?'!
Speaker 8 01:01 When you think about Mike Tyson in the ring, he was unbeatable. But outside the ring...
Rosie Perez 01:07 The only person that defeated him, was him. I think Mike Tyson's love-hate relationship with his public is the perfect American tragedy.
Speaker 9 01:23 Robin Givens.
Speaker 10 01:24 He really, really was in love with her. He went bananas.
Rosie Perez 01:27 Everyone's like, Oh, it's gonna work because opposites attract. Yeah.
Barbara Walters 01:34 Robin, does he hit you?
Robin Givens 01:37 He shakes, he pushes, he swings.
Speaker 11 01:44 And then the unexpected happened.
Speaker 12 01:47 His life started to spiral out of control.
Speaker 13 01:50 It's a tragic narrative.
Rosie Perez 01:52 I couldn't stop crying. This is this man's life.
Speaker 14 01:54 The obsession remains. It seems that he is unstoppable. It seems that he is forgiven for his crimes. A Hollywood star. This is the male American dream.
Speaker 15 02:12 If you could talk to 20 year old Mike, what would you say to him?
Mike Tyson 02:18 It's gonna hurt. It's gonna hurt bad. It's gonna really hurt. Look at me.
Speaker 16 02:26 Now, new details. Stunning new interviews. The climb, the crash, and the comeback. Mike Tyson as you have not seen.
Rosie Perez 02:37 Boom. Welcome to Mike Tyson's world.
Speaker 16 02:40 The staggering documentary event. Premieres Tuesday night May 25 on ABC. And next day on Hulu.
Matthew 02:50 That is a trailer from the ABC News documentary, Mike Tyson: The Knockout, and this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and today we're talking about Mike Tyson, the former heavyweight fighter who many would consider to be one of the greatest boxers of all times. Unfortunately, he's equally famous, or notorious, for his exploits outside the ring. At least until now. We're joined by award winning senior executive producer Roxanna Sherwood who has helped bring the story to the small screen. Roxanna, welcome to Factual America.
Roxanna Sherwood 03:28 Glad to be here.
Matthew 03:29 Yeah, how are things with you?
Roxanna Sherwood 03:31 I'm good. I'm psyched. I'm psyched to see this film finally make its way onto the small screen, as you say.
Matthew 03:39 Well, when I say small screen I'm not trying to belittle - it's what everyone's gonna see, here. Before we get going, any chance we're cousins? Long lost cousins separated by who knows?
Roxanna Sherwood 03:53 I think we're gonna have to do a genealogy tree; if we make friends here, I think we'll have to follow this up, and track the roots.
Matthew 04:00 Okay.
Roxanna Sherwood 04:01 It could be quite possible, I don't know.
Matthew 04:03 Any roots with the South Carolina Sherwoods?
Roxanna Sherwood 04:06 No South Carolina. No south in my...
Matthew 04:09 Okay. Okay, then probably... well, then you have to go all the way back to the country I'm living in now, I think. So, the film, Mike Tyson: The Knockout, ABC News. Well, it's showing on ABC- Episode One. We're recording this on Monday, May 24. It's dropping on the 25th. Episode Two which will come out after we've recorded and released is Tuesday, June 1 at 8 to 10pm, Eastern Time. Each episode is streaming on Hulu, the following day. International release- we usually tell our international audience to google it I'm sure it will make its way there very soon. And, again, welcome to Factual America. It's a pleasure to have you on. As a big fan of ABC News growing up, it's great to have someone from that venerable organization on the podcast. So, thank you so much. Now, this is going to sound like a stupid question, but I'm good at that. We know it's Mike Tyson: The Knockout, but what is Mike Tyson: The Knockout about?
Roxanna Sherwood 05:21 It's about the man, more than it is about the boxer. To me, it's about the man. It's about, you know, the epic life that we've seen play out on a public stage for the past some 40 years or more. It's about the ups-and-downs that we've all witnessed over the years. And how it is. The question is, you know, how this man has been able to sort of transcend a lot of the experiences that he's lived out before our eyes and hover above them. And that's really what it's about. I was very curious to understand what it is about Mike Tyson that keeps people, you know, fascinated, continually fascinated to this day, but also keeps him a celebrated figure as controversial as he may be. He's welcome on talk show couches. He's a celebrated figure in society. So, that exploration was at the heart of what drove me to the story.
Matthew 06:28 And I guess another way of asking that question is what are viewers going to see that they haven't seen before? Because as you said, his life's been well documented. He's lived in front of our lives. Certainly, anyone over 40 or so was very well aware of Mike Tyson.
Roxanna Sherwood 06:43 I think what's surprising is that we all think we're very aware of Mike Tyson, but we kind of connect him to some aspect of his life, whether that's the heyday of the 1980s, the iconic boxer, or whether it's, you know, the rape conviction in the early '90s. Or, it's, you know, what have you, the boy Mike Tyson; he kind of stays trapped in particular areas of his life. And what I think is different and surprising now is when you put all of these pieces together, we've seen them. And the way I experienced his story was like this. It's like blips of things that I would pick up in the public space about this man and his news making life, but never in the entirety of the full context. And certainly not in a moment, like the one we're in today. Context is everything.
Matthew 07:40 Yeah, I think we'll get to that here shortly. But at the risk of compartmentalizing his life again, as you say, that has been probably the mistake previously. I was wondering if you don't mind, maybe because some of our listeners, many of them maybe won't be that familiar with his life story. And if you don't mind, let's kind of go through his life a bit. Also, because you've gracefully shared some great clips with us so that our viewers get a little taster of what's in store when they do finally see this. But what really struck me - and I agree with you - as someone who, you know, I can remember where I was when he bit Holyfield's ear, you know, and I can remember when this happened, and that happened. I don't know if I, as you say, had a full appreciation for the whole arc of his life. And we just recently had the director of the Biggie Smalls documentary on and Biggie grew up in Brooklyn about the same time period, and famous scenes from Brownsville. So, this really does go all back to Brownsville, Brooklyn, doesn't it?
Roxanna Sherwood 08:53 Yeah, I think Biggie's a little younger, but yeah, the same rough and tumble streets for sure. And I think, you know, and I'm sure we'll get into this a bit but, you know, the linear, chronological tale of Mike Tyson's story, and allowing the story to breathe and live in those moments that we all saw play out is really at the core of this and the magic of it in many ways to have the benefit of time and context playing across the show. But yes, we take you right back to Brownsville from the beginning, because, you know, leaving Mike Tyson in the splendor of the moment of, you know, the Spinks fight of the 1980s, which was actually more expanded at a certain point along this process at the top of the film, really wanted more context of this boy from Brooklyn in this area that I think, you know, you really have to know New York City, and know Brownsville, know Brooklyn to really understand what that means, and how dramatic, and really, truly horrible and violent and scary that upbringing is. So, to lay that out in a sort of linear way to bring some understanding to the things that we saw later in life is really important.
Matthew 10:22 I mean, what struck me and, you know, we don't do spoiler, well, we will, if we need to, we'll say spoiler alert, but we're not going to do any spoilers here. But, what struck me is even late in life you've got some footage that people haven't seen before: his interview with Byron Pitts, and even now as a 54, however old he is, man, he's still making reference to Brownsville. So, it's definitely had, you know, like for all of us, our upbringing, wherever we grew up, has a big impact on us, but certainly for him. I think we've got a great clip to just give a little bit of insight there, and I think some amazing video footage of what it really was like back then, I mean, I think we forget what these areas were like, in the '70s and early '80s. And it's introduced by former heavyweight champ Shannon Briggs, who actually grew up right across the street from him. So, let's have - and Rosie Perez is on this one, too. So, let's have a quick listen or watch for those of you on YouTube, and we'll be right back with Roxanna Sherwood.
Shannon Briggs 11:29 I grew up, literally, across the street from Mike Tyson. I'm from Ocean Hill, Brownsville, and so was Mike. And then Mike lost his home, and he moved down the hill to Amboy. You know, when you go down the hill, its savagery down there, you feel me, you got to be ready, prepared, because it's rough.
Rosie Perez 11:45 It was so dangerous. I'm talking about gangs. I'm talking about girls disappearing. I'm talking about dead bodies being found in vacant lots. You know, at 10 o'clock in the morning.
Shannon Briggs 12:02 You got to worry about who want to take your sneakers, who want to take your bus pass.
Rosie Perez 12:05 Who is going to come out and duck out of a building and grab you, rape you, stab you, murder you.
Shannon Briggs 12:10 So, you become paranoid. You live by that, you know that, yo, they might be scheming on me. And this is poor people robbing poor people.
Speaker 1 12:18 The rest of the country hears about Harlem all the time. Harlem compared to Brownsville is a stable middle class community.
Mike Tyson 12:26 It was always hostile. Cops always stopping. You know what I mean, ambulance always coming to pick up somebody. Guns always going off. People are getting stabbed, windows are being broken. Very, very hostile. You know what I mean, and like I said, you become accustomed to it.
Shannon Briggs 12:41 Chances of making it out of Brownsville is slim and none. Imma tell you right now. It's a door. And it's 50,000 people trying to get through one door. You know what I mean? With no opportunity.
Matthew 12:52 So then, Roxanna, that's a - again, I think that's an amazing clip. But then, you know, Mike has this meteoric rise to fame. I mean, it's amazing. He's the youngest Heavyweight Champion of the world ever. I mean, it's all well documented. I remember all the, you know, I only know of Cus D'amato because of what was happening with Tyson at the time. I remember those interviews. I think somewhere in the film, you talk about the three Mikes in the African American community, that were so dominant at the time, Mike Jordan- Michael Jordan, Michael Jackson, and then Mike Tyson. But he was really ill-prepared to cope with this, wasn't he? Or he had no one to trust, I think, as someone else put it.
Roxanna Sherwood 13:40 And I think both things are true, because, you know, growing up the way that he grew up, which we did our best to unpack that a bit, using, of course, you know, you heard Rosie Perez and her amazing perspective, she grew up in Bushwick. You know, Shannon Briggs, like, across the street, as you said, really understanding how difficult it was for Mike Tyson the boy, you know, growing up in a home that was very, very classically dysfunctional. An alcoholic mom, who sort of, you know, left the door open to boyfriends and every kind of, you know, wild kind of experience that was happening. You know, somebody like Mike Tyson wasn't getting the attention, the love- not in the home, and not out on the streets where he was bullied. And he was outcast, you know, in the streets; picked on, and speaks very openly about that period of time, and how that is the driving you know, spirit that we see later. You know, turned into Iron Mike. But being bullied, and being picked on by kids in the neighborhood at school. He stopped going to school, because he couldn't handle that and he, you know, he was found to be dirty and wearing dirty clothes: he just had nothing. And to be so - you feel sort of left to your own devices, the way that he was, is really a transformative sort of experience that I don't think anyone can truly understand unless they're in, in those shoes. But it was because, you know, on the streets, where life is about drug dealing and getting ahead with money, you know, he had no role model, no guidance and nowhere to turn. So, you pointed to the to the lack of trust, it's really, utter sort of destitution there, and loss and confusion, and, you know, self-reliance was everything. He just had to kind of turn to himself. And really, there were a lot of people there for him other than himself. And so I think - and then we see across his life, which I'm sure we'll get into in different ways here, you know, that inherent sense of no trust is behind, you know, his spirit in some ways.
Matthew 16:15 And I think that takes us to, well, another great clip you've shared with us. And this one is about, you know, with this lack of, you know, no one to trust. And yet, with all this rise to fame comes more money than most of us could ever imagine ever seeing in our lifetime. And so, let's listen or watch that clip, now; it's got the intro by baseball great, New York Mets star, Darryl Strawberry.
Darryl Strawberry 16:49 When you have millions of dollars, and you come from nothing, means nothing anyway, because you had nothing growing up. There's no education for that. There's trust for that. Money comes into play, fame comes into play, notoriety comes into play, but it's very hard to deal with them when you're young.
Dr Todd Boyd 17:17 And I think one of the ways you can sort of stay connected and plugged in is by going back to something that's very familiar.
Rudy Gonzalez 17:22 He always seemed comfortable to go home to Brooklyn and be around his people.
Rosie Perez 17:29 He was Brooklyn's own. And so, everyone felt a connection to him. And everyone lied: I know Mike Tyson! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you don't know Mike Tyson. Yes, I do.
Dapper Dan 17:39 Mike Tyson, like, was in the ghetto, you can see him. So, he was that boy wonder that we could relate to.
Rudy Gonzalez 17:45 We would park these cars, which, by the way, no one would ever touch. I was probably the only guy in the world that left a $300,000 Ferrari sitting in Brooklyn, and it was still there. Four hours later.
Lori Grinker 17:55 We were in the car at one point. And all these little kids came by and they were ripping up, like, a paper bag or something so they could have paper for him to sign. I loved that moment. You know, this hero comes back.
Rudy Gonzalez 18:11 He was always handing out money, we would be driving in the street and he would see a homeless guy. And he would jump out of the limousine. It got to a point where we had to put a special lock so he wouldn't open these doors. You know, I was scared he would get runned over.
Matthew 18:24 So, I mean, it's, as you said, growing up in a world where there's like almost a purely transactional world. It's all about how do you get out of that sort of world? And, you know, I think the clip shows him holding, you know, he's, you know, can't imagine the kind of money he's earning. And then we literally see him - basically becomes world champ. And he literally self-destructs in front of all of us. I mean, I think you've got a great quote, all his worst instincts were indulged, encouraged by Wallace Matthews from Newsday in New York Post. And yet, at the same time, it's all - I mean, and this will get us into, I think, something the film really deals with, in a very good way, is this - it's all complicated by his relationships with women, too, isn't it? And this is about the time with Robin Givens and ABC News played a large part in that story, didn't it? Or at least ABC did with the Barbara Walters specials in the interview with Robin Givens. So, it's an interesting time of his life.
Roxanna Sherwood 19:33 That's right. And, you know, part of what attracted me to telling the story was the rich archive at ABC News, and there were like millions of viewers that tuned in for that Barbara Walters interview, this is a time where, you know, they turned out in droves to watch network television. But this was also, you know, at the height of Mike Tyson's true celebrity; he had, you know, various relationships, you know, but, you know, under Cus D'amato's time and, you know, he's definitely on record as being sort of seen as trying to be focused on, you know, the fighting and not on the women, even though there's little bits - there were certainly troubles that he was getting into with ladies and all sorts of things along the way. But when you see him find his princess, as we say, in Robin Givens, and I think on some level, he really trusts her and begins to really, you know, and as his close associates describe, you know, he really loved her and fell under her spell. And you see in that interview, and leading up to the interview in sort of the outtakes and things around the property in New Jersey, that he was really doting on her. And then you have the sense when you're watching the interview unfold the way that it does that the trust was misguided on some level, you know, and even though, you know, this story is really, really complicated, because, you know, we can't speak to, you know, intentions and things, but there is one - in the silence that people talk about of him sitting there, you have the sense that he's confused, like, he doesn't know what's happening. And it sort of mirrors a lot of, for me the confusion that we see playing out in his early life; it's as if he doesn't really know where to turn. That's what came across there for me.
Matthew 21:46 That's interesting. I mean, do you think it's a confusion of maybe not, I mean, this is conjecture, but, you know, not even really understanding maybe some things that he may have done, the implications of it, or do you think it's confusion because he's absolutely shocked that Robin's come into the interview and just dropped these bombshells, which as you point out, you've got other scenes where they're around the property and everything seems to be - I mean, you don't know, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. But other signs are seeing that things aren't - you know, it's hard to tell what - hard to know what to believe, isn't it?
Roxanna Sherwood 22:27 It's hard to know what to believe. And you really get that sense. And I think it's all of the above. In answer to your question, I think that Mike Tyson never really understood how to behave, we talked about the lack of role models, I think that there were no, there was no real sense of how to behave. And then we got out it to some degree in the household of growing up with Cus, and the discrepancy there that happened with Teddy Atlas. And, you know, this sense that you've got this guy who's going to become, in Cus's mind, world champion. And, you know, he sees great, great potential in him, you know, it's sort of like, we want him to achieve that, right? So, whatever it takes, like, give the guy whatever he wants, because we got to keep him happy, and keep him fighting, and keep him bringing out this this wonderful, you know, fighting spirit. So, I do think there are lots of dimensions here that sort of color this, like, so on top of not really having a sense of, of how to behave, period, because he didn't have the role models that would have taught him that, layered on to that is this sense that this guy's going to be great, and whatever it takes to be great is what we're needing to push, here. So, that gets layered in and sort of colors his behavior, too, and what's condoned and what isn't, and all of that is a big question. So, you are kind of left, like, how do I feel about this? And then on the other hand, you know, back in that era, as well, you know, you immediately, and Danyel Smith speaks to this in the film, it's like, you're immediately, your inclination is to, you know, point fingers at the woman, you know, and, you know, clearly she's not telling the truth is sort of the implication there, you know, because here's our hero, Mike Tyson, and here's this woman who's - and I think all of that is, you know, is more convoluted, and the truth is a bit, you know, is a bit elusive.
Matthew 24:36 I think that brings us to a good point. We're gonna give our listeners an early break, but we'll go play into that, actually, with the final clip we're going to show, which is the one that does talk about some of this self-destructive behavior that started to be seen certainly about this time period, and it's the one with the clip with Wallace Matthews is in talking about this, and the influences that Mike Tyson was subject to at the time. So, let's do that, and we will then be right back with Roxanna Sherwood, senior executive producer of Mike Tyson: The Knockout.
Wallace Matthews 25:25 Tyson went into a period where all of his worst instincts were indulged and encouraged.
Speaker 1 25:31 We had four penthouse apartments, three mansions...
Speaker 2 25:33 ... A disco, indoor racquetball, indoor pool...
Speaker 3 25:37 ... private aircraft...
Speaker 4 25:38 ... a master bedroom with five televisions...
Speaker 5 25:42 ... 200 cars...
Speaker 6 25:43 ... five of these Bentley convertibles at $320,000 each.
Speaker 7 25:48 A lot of jewelry. People wanted to see Mike Tyson just spent a million dollars in Gianni Versace.
Speaker 8 25:53 He would go to nightclubs. He would grab women inappropriately.
Rudy Gonzalez 25:59 I would have girls pull up to the limousine, and throw their underwears at me and say 'give this to your boss. Here's my number'. It was nonstop with groupies.
Jessica Stedman Guff 26:09 He acted out in a way that generated more headlines.
Don King 26:13 Only in America!
Jessica Stedman Guff 26:15 And this to Don King, as a boxing promoter, was huge.
Speaker 9 26:21 That made people more interested to buy tickets when he fought.
Skip Bayless 26:28 You people want me to be self-destructing Iron Mike Tyson. I just felt like he got trapped in that.
Factual America midroll 26:38 Art and entertainment inspire each of us in different ways. But have you ever wondered what inspires the people who create our cultural touchstones? On the Spark Parade podcast, your host, Adam Unze, geeks out with artists and entertainers about their cultural spark of inspiration. Everything from Shakespeare to South Park. You'll hear from artists like Conor Oberst on Northern Exposure, Róisín Murphy on Terence Conran's The House Book, and Adrian Younge on Marvin Gaye's What's Going On. The Spark Parade: where artists reveal their cultural inspirations to spark the inspiration in you. Find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Matthew 27:19 You're listening to Factual America, subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew 27:38 Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with award winning producer Roxanna Sherwood. The film is Mike Tyson: The Knockout, showing on ABC in the states. Episode One released on Tuesday, May 25. Episode Two will be releasing Tuesday, June 1 8 to 10pm, Eastern Time. All other time zones, I think you used to say, check your local listings. Do people even do that anymore? Each episode to stream on Hulu the following day. So, it's about this time that we then see the greatest upset in boxing history, Roxanna; it's the Buster Douglas fight. Is that the knockout you're referring to in the title? It's Mike Tyson: The Knockout - which knockout are we referring to in that title?
Roxanna Sherwood 28:29 That knockout is up to you. Because of course, we know that Mike Tyson was the king of knocking people out. Then you have Buster Douglas in this insane upset that is sometimes considered one of the biggest upsets in sports. And then you have a young knockout that's going to show up in Episode Two, who lays them down with a knockout. So, you know, it's a variety of things that led to that time.
Matthew 29:01 It's more than a double entendre. It's got...
Roxanna Sherwood 29:04 It is more than a double entendre. I would also say about it, there's something you know, contrary about it, because really, he is somebody who's not been knocked out. And that is another piece of irony there that he defies the knockout. He's on his feet very much on his feet today.
Matthew 29:22 Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a very, very good point. I mean, and now you've mentioned this, and then this is very soon after this. And that's kind of Episode Two for the documents. The spiral before the getting back up on his feet. So, whichever knockout we're talking about. There's the rape conviction. He serves the three years of a six year sentence, briefly, he captures the crown, we've got the two Holyfield fights. I mean, that's the other thing you've documented, so I didn't quite remember but, I mean, he was just so iconic of the period. We even got President Clinton commenting on the fight from the night before, we've got all these Who's Who of stars at the fights, and I was not - I mean, myself personally - I was not a huge boxing fan, but I made sure I went and saw that second Holyfield fight, you know; I can tell you exactly where I was with my brother, trying to find a pay-per-view where we could watch it. So, I mean, he is this, you know, he is almost defined several decades for us. But, I mean, for you, as a woman, how conscious were you of me, too, when you were making - the me, too movement, and things of the last few years - when you were making this film?
Roxanna Sherwood 30:43 Very conscious of the me, too movement, very conscious of it, because I remembered, you know, watching that trial, and, I mean, it wasn't televised, but watching the coverage, certainly of that trial. And watching a young Desiree Washington take on this man. And, you know, it conjured up a lot of feelings for me, because I see in her this incredible, you know, power to take on strength and take on this guy widely considered a hero. And also, you know, conscious as well of what that meant through a racial lens, because we just had come, you know, on the heels of Anita Hill, taking on another black hero in Clarence Thomas, around that same period. And, you know, the tide is really against, you know, women stepping up with these accusations, but certainly against a black woman stepping up with these accusations, when she could be considered as a traitor of sorts of her own kind. So, there were layers of that, that were factoring in. And I also watched a lot of the archive at the time and thought, there is a display of victim shaming, because whatever you want to say about, you know, what happened behind closed doors, or however, you know, you feel about it, or what you think about it, you know, you still at the end of the day have this conviction in this young woman who stepped up and who did this, and who knows what happened in that room. But whatever happened, the only thing that matters is what she says took place, like, and because by the definition of consent today, and how we look at, you know, sexual assault and rape in society today, it doesn't matter if the intention was there to be, you know, together, or they were going - or that she should have known, and all those things by the definitions of today. And that really intrigued me to kind of look at that defining moment, you know, on cases of, you know, date rape, and this issue of consent. And so, it played really big for me because - and I think a lot of Americans didn't really know how to feel about it at the time, and we get into that with the arship in the show and others. But it felt like it was unexplored, that all of these things were unexplored in this story.
Matthew 33:23 And what's, I mean, just thinking about it again, I mean, so many times these stories, often the woman is sort of faceless or nameless. But she was, I mean, incredible strength at the time, any time, but certainly back then to come forward. She was coming in and out of courtrooms in front of banks of cameras, people knew who she was and knew what she looked like. Oh, yeah, she also did a Barbara Walters interview, didn't she? And you have that on there. And very, very strong, and being able to talk about that subject; yet, you reached out to her, and I think understandably, she decided she did not want to be filmed for this, is that correct?
Roxanna Sherwood 34:13 That's correct. And, you know, at the time, you know, I mean, she did have a civil suit against him where they settled out of court after the initial trial. But she very much sort of disappeared into this collective, yeah, forever, and sort of is a very private person and wants, you know, none of this to be, you know, connected to her, with her, associated with her. And, you know, and respecting that privacy is a big part of this. And it's interesting because at the time, the chatter, you know, you're hearing on all of the news channels, and all that you're hearing; you're hearing, you know, oh, she's just trying to you know, get her day or exploit the situ- and all of these things, when in fact, like, we've witnessed through the years, that that is not what happened here with her.
Matthew 35:12 And yet, I mean, I think someone makes - a few people make the comment. This happened in the early 90s. If it happened today, in the last few years, I mean, that would have - the difference that would have meant for Mike Tyson and his ability to eventually resu-, you know, you said, you know, he's this controversial figure, but he is very much on his feet now. But would he have been permanently canceled, if you will, to use the parlance of the time - of now.
Roxanna Sherwood 35:46 I do think and this was a really important part of looking at this. It's, you know, when we hear it from, you know, Jeremy Schaap and Mark Kriegel on the show, and Danyel Smith as well, like, he would certainly face canceling, right? But we have watched him, and you can look back, and this is also part of what is interesting to me, it's like, you've got this guy who's, you know, prone to bad behavior, you know, admittedly so. And, you know, you see in the archival footage, he's there with all of the contestants, and they're dancing around and somebody off cameras saying 'Play with the girls, Mike, play with the girls'. He's like, I am playing with them. Like, so there's this sense of, like, he doesn't know what's appropriate, or how to behave. And then he doubles down on that in the courtroom when he says, I - you know, what Wally Matthews describes as the creep defense, you know, which couldn't be more appropriate. But certainly, all of that, it kind of leaves you confused a bit about how to see this. And I just thought that that was really rich terrain for us to look at.
Matthew 37:00 And you spend it, I mean, and rightfully so, you spend a good amount of your film capital on that moment. And I think it was very well done to concentrate on that. And then I guess at the same time, as you said, this is very, you know, context or timing is everything. You must have been extremely conscious of George Floyd and everything that's been going on the last well, forever, but for the last - certainly the last 12 months or so, when you were doing this film, weren't you?
Roxanna Sherwood 37:35 Of course, and it was happening just right on the heels, and the first episode is, you know, airing on the date of George Floyd's death. Certainly, you know, the stereotypes of the scary black man, and, you know, and as a society and looking at ourselves to understand, you know, implicit bias and racism and all of this stuff is a really important part of looking at Mike Tyson's story. And one thing that I really feel strongly about is that in this me, too era, racial reckoning era, I really feel that the nuance has been drained out of things; you use the term cancel, you know, would he be canceled and cancel culture. And I feel like we are prone these days to kind of shuffle things under the black and white and there's the gray has disappeared. But the truth is in the middle, the truth is gray. And stories like this one, like Mike Tyson admits to many, many wrong doings over his storied life. But he goes out of his way to self-search and self-seek and try to be a better person and - but to own these mistakes and save them outright. And to really make that part of what he's doing today, self-exploration, trying to be a better person, all that I feel that, you know, the cancel culture, our tendency is to just slap the label on and move on, and, you know, people are bad or they're good, but bad people do good things, good people do bad things. And we've got to recognize that, I believe, as a society, so his story spoke to that nuance for me.
Matthew 39:27 I think you raise an excellent point. I think it's the thing that, I think, many of us are struggling with. Because I think we think the lack of nuance in, of course, not at ABC News, but I mean, you know, but just generally there does seem to be this sort of, we're all kind of heads swiveling around, not knowing where to turn because everyone on, you know, whatever the sides are, it's not left, right. It's all kinds of different things going on, but everyone seems to be, yeah, you're not our sides; you're against us, and as you said, slapping them down, just canceling. It happens on all the sides. And then there's this victimhood thing going on as well, sometimes affiliated with all this. And there isn't this desire to sort of just shine a light on something, and just as best we can figure out what the truth is, you know?
Roxanna Sherwood 40:20 And I think that we all want, we're all asking this question: how do we behave? Like what, you know, how do we behave in society, you know, and we're trying to put a definition around that now, I think, in this moment of these movements, we're trying really hard. And I feel like the conversation has to move further into that. Because, you know, some of us are left with, well, you know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm a misogynist; maybe I'm a racist. I don't want to say because somebody is going to jump on me and cancel me; now, by no stretch, and I want to be super-clear here, am I condoning, or are we condoning anything like sex assault, or rape, or any of that, you know, just to be super-clear, there are certain things that, you know, meet the parameters, like, we could sit here and talk about serial killers, like, who were, you know, led to, you know, hack people up because of their horrible - and then you can explore, you know, what led them to be there, but they've got to face the consequences of that reality. Like, let's be clear, but I think at the heart of what's going on today is we all kind of want to be better; and our society, we want to have a better world we're living in, and the self-examination that we could learn a bit from Mike Tyson, and how he's handled it in his own personal life is stuff we should be applying to how we're looking at our society today, vis a vis all of these issues.
Matthew 41:49 I think that's a good point, and I think one thing that's just struck me, and I think it's what, for me, one of the things about this film that I've really appreciated, because maybe as someone who's kind of tuned out, maybe the last 10, or 15 years of Mike Tyson's life is, but the lesson maybe to be learned is, you know, for lack of a better way of describing it, if he had been - if someone like him had been canceled, he never would have had this chance, possibly, to resurrect his life and become the person he, as you said, he's on his feet. He's, I mean, I was amazed I hadn't - I wasn't aware of the one man show. I wasn't, you know, these sort of things. He's, you know, again, he knows he's done bad things, and he's, and doesn't mean you have to like those bad things by no stretch of the imagination, but it's almost - without let- people getting off, you know, it gets - I know, yeah, I find myself, even myself, caveated things here, just even getting into this discussion. But I think that's what the sort of last quarter of the film is really about, isn't it?
Roxanna Sherwood 43:03 It is. And I hope that people will see it that way. I'm not sure how people will feel about him in the end. It's not about that. It's more about, you know, here's a guy, as you say, that because he was granted, just by timing, and his sheer inner strength, and his sheer, you know, ability to kind of find a way forward, in spite of it all, that at the end he's just saying, 'Hey, I'm imperfect. I've made terrible mistakes. I don't want to make those mistakes. On some level, I'm still scared of myself. I know that I can make and step in it really, really badly if I'm left to my own devices, but I'm working on myself. I'm working on it. And here's how I'm doing it.' And that's kind of what resonates for me. And I hope that people will come away with that feeling. No matter how they feel about him.
Matthew 44:05 I do highly recommend people watch it, because I think it is a great sort of, as you said, it's about the man, and not about the boxer. So, I do appreciate that. I mean, we kind of touched - we've already been touching on this - but why make this film now? I mean, there's been previous Tyson docs, some award-winning and highly acclaimed; obviously, you made the decision to do this before some of this was hitting, you know, some of the most recent news. Why did you and ABC News think this was the time, and this is something that needed to be done?
Roxanna Sherwood 44:43 Well, one, it's the stuff that I just spoke about: the clear resonance, I mean, in the me, too era, now, this was before George Floyd when this was hatched, and that and the second really, truly obvious thing is, you know, this archive that you pointed to, I knew that we had Barbara Walters sitting down with Mike Tyson and Robin Givens. I knew that, you know, ABC owns a lot of the, you know, fights ESPN and ABC Sports prior to the Don King era, I knew that Desiree Washington sat for an interview with Barbara Walters. So, I knew that the material was there. And I knew that the story was there. And I knew that the story was surprising in many ways, because if you hadn't pieced it together, because these - some of these, you know, shows that you're referring to predate one, you know, this - the Mike Tyson of today. And some of the things that and I'll, you know, not get into the details here, since the second episode is still in front of us, you know, and some of the things that just sort of were blowing past in the headlines over the year - over the late years that speak to this tremendous sense of loss, and what that does to the human spirit. And we all can relate to loss. And we all - and on some level, you know, the things that come about through addiction and managing loss and all of that. So, all of that was there, and that's why I thought that this moment, was a good moment to speak about this story in this full context, because that was really important to be able to get the time and the usage of the archive in this way to really just allow us to steep in it.
Matthew 46:22 And so, I mean, so it was your idea, is that right?
Roxanna Sherwood 46:26 That's right, yeah.
Matthew 46:27 Oh, wow. And so, I mean, hence why, and for these very reasons why, you know, it could have very easily been an ES - it's not an ESPN 30 for 30. It's not an ABC Sports thing. But it is ABC News. Yeah. And so, maybe you can tell us, too, about - because as we talk a little bit more about making this film - about the role Geoffrey Fletcher's played because I saw you have him on as executive producer and director of animation, which would not necessarily pitched him for it first, but for those who are listeners who don't know, he's won the Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay for Precious back in 2009. So, what did he bring to the project?
Roxanna Sherwood 47:11 Well, I've known Geoffrey for years. And I'm just going to state it right here, like, very clearly, like, I know enough to know that I personally, you're looking at a white lady sitting here, you know, but I'm not the person to tell the Mike Tyson story. So, obviously, you know, I went out of my way to bring in the perspectives that are needed both on the staff, but I also turned to my friend Geoffrey, because I know that he is sensitive, and deeply, deeply introspective about these issues, and creative. And I fully expected he would engage on a deep, deep level with the story, and boy was that correct. You know, he was as moved as I was throughout the process. And, you know, we have lots of discussions about all kinds of issues, here. And it added to the texture and the richness that you're seeing. His vision - his eye for the sense of story, we talked about the loss that Mike Tyson felt, and how that informed his being, and became sort of the essence of what you're seeing in the ring, too, taking fear and harnessing it into something positive, all of that: Geoffrey saw all of that; and Geoffrey, as a guy who loves comic and loves - you know, has a real special interest in animation, you know, that ended up a part of this that he sparked with big time. And he really got into the painstaking details of how all of that was being reflected in through image. So, it was really important, and it was a wonderful collaboration to have his perspective and his creativity, and his artistry.
Matthew 49:04 And speaking of African American artists, how did you get Terence Blanchard on the project because that's also a, you know, amazing contribution to this as well.
Roxanna Sherwood 49:15 A stunning contribution, and I'll give Geoffrey full credit for thinking of Terence Blanchard as the ingredient that we needed because Terence Blanchard's music, which we've seen over years of films, Spike Lee's films, you know, his tone in his music seem to capture the tone of the story that we wanted to tell. And it was really an add by Geoffrey, and I feel really sort of set the stage for the story that we set upon here. So, I'm glad you saw that.
Matthew 49:52 Yeah, no, because it could be very easy to just go with whatever the songs were big songs of the era, you know, and fill it with a soundtrack of the time, but I think it's...
Roxanna Sherwood 50:01 Like Phil Collins?!
Matthew 50:03 Yeah, well, exactly! Or Tupac. But yeah, but you need to get someone who's got five Grammys, and yeah, as you say scores a lot of, most of Spike Lee's films, and just - it's something - I would say it's very subtle but then when you kind of notice this music, that there's this thing in the background; well, as we know sound is just as important as the visual. And I mean, this is very interesting because it comes from ABC News, will we be seeing more things like this from ABC News? Because, I mean, your Twitter handle, I think says "senior executive producer original long form content". I mean, the lines are increasingly blurred between news and entertainment. Is this something that ABC News is going to be increasingly bringing out?
Roxanna Sherwood 50:53 So long as I'm at ABC News, I will say yes, because that's what I'm focused on bringing to the fore. Long form content. Yeah, that's what our handle is, right? Because this is where we can live in the space of the emotion and really get the context that I'm interested in. And I just think that the complexity of Tyson's life, I hope that I'll be able to do similar ahead. Although, you know, as you well recognize, there's no story like Mike Tyson's story, really anywhere! So, it's a tough one to match. But I do hope you'll see more of this in this era of, you know, true crime. You know, hopefully, we see more of this type of story. And certainly, I'm into exploring our archive beyond the true crime that we explore for all the time. And so, for sure, I hope you'll see more from ABC News on this front. And it's really important to me, too. I live in a non-fiction space myself, here. So, you know, I think, of course, you know, the truth is stranger than fiction, as they say, and I'm sticking with that. And that's sort of my area to live in.
Matthew 52:06 Yeah. Unless, maybe unless you're like, Dostoevsky or something, I mean, but yes, it does seem to be the case, hence why I'm hosting a podcast on documentaries. No, I think it's a very important point, and I also agree about the archive. There's little touches there, you know, the stuff on some of the interviews that we didn't see. I think we've, what we already mentioned, there's a bit from the Byron Pitts interview that's going to be shown on this as well. So, yeah, I think that - well, long may it happen. I mean, I'm sure ABC's got a very rich archive, and I'm looking forward to whatever the next story; you may not be able to live up quite to the Mike Tyson story, but I'm sure you can find something. And what we do here at Factual America, we also do tend to have a little section where we talk a little bit about careers and people in the industry, and you're the first person who's come that we've had on that's come from the news side of things. And if you're, if you were starting - if you don't mind giving a little bit of free advice - I mean, if you're looking for, if you were starting off now and looking at sort of, for lack of a better way of putting this, news documentaries, what would your advice be? Would it be go more the traditional journalism route? Or would you go more the filmmaker route? Or do you have to distinguish between the two?
Roxanna Sherwood 53:31 I don't think you have to distinguish between the two, as so long as you're driven by story and have a sense of wanting to seek the truth, whether the truth is there to find, you know, and have that and be driven by that, I feel like you can learn the skills you need, on the way. So, clearly, you know, filmmakers can't be journalists out of the gate, they've got to learn the journalism to tell the story through our, you know, through our very strict, you know, standards, legal, etc, you know, and learn all of that how to - but at the heart of it, it's about connecting with another person. And if you can connect with another person, you're on your way. So, my advice to people starting out is follow their hearts into the subjects that excite them, and stick with that, and just keep digging. And we all know how to dig, you know, if you're a curious human being it takes curiosity, that's all, and follow that instinct into the things that you love. That's my suggestion. I do think over the years, like, you know, how people got into news and how they succeeded in the news, you know, there were a lot of traditional tracks for that. And I think all of that's been abandoned. I think we're all coming at these careers from different blocks and different, you know, different perches, and so I can't stress that enough; people come in with business degrees and legal degree. And whatever it is it has an intersection with non-fiction storytelling.
Matthew 55:13 That's interesting. And what's next for you?
Roxanna Sherwood 55:18 I'm gonna do more of this. I'm going to stay right here, and hope that I can, you know, tap into something that's going to get Matthew Sherwood excited. And the rest of America, and the world, hopefully, if I'm really successful. And, you know, I'm looking at - I mean there's certainly, and you can probably appreciate a lot of unannounced things that are happening that I'm not going to get in front of here. But I'm looking for stories that are bringing out the depth and the complexity that we've spoken about here, today. And so I expect that the next one will be similar to that. And I'll also be on the front lines of, you know, what we like to call the breaking news documentary, since you're interested in this piece of the news that like, earlier this year, I did a show called 24 Hours: Assault on the Capitol. And, you know, that was all, you know, the inside story as it was unfolding within just days of the attack on the Capitol. And, you know, so I'll be behind some of those as well. And I'll hopefully be behind some of these longer term slow burning things cooking in the background.
Matthew 56:30 Well, I look forward to seeing those. I hope you keep making them and very curious to see what these are going to be, but you're gonna have a wealth of material, I'm sure. Especially in the world we're living in these days. So, Roxanna, I just wanted to thank you again; we are coming to the end of our time together. So, it was a pleasure having you on Factual America, and if we haven't scared you off, we'd love to have you again, when the next one of these projects drops. And just to remind our listeners and viewers, it's Mike Tyson: The Knockout. Episode One dropped on Tuesday, May 25. But you can catch it on Hulu. Episode Two's Tuesday, June 1, 8 to 10pm Eastern Time, and then you can catch it on Hulu, the day after that. And then for our international listeners, just keep googling it I'm sure it will come up somehow, some way. So, Roxanna, thank you again.
Matthew 57:29 If you have questions regarding how you can become a documentary director and producer or other roles in the industry, I recommend you check out careersinfilm.com to learn more about careers in the film industry. I want to give a shout out to Innersound Audio just outside of York, England, where we record our podcasts. And a big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Roxanna onto the show. And finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we'd love to hear from you. So, please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas. Whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America signing off.
Factual America Outro 58:19 You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk