The Mysterious Photo of Abraham Lincoln
Abraham Lincoln may have been America's greatest leader. The 16th president ended slavery and led the nation out of one of its darkest periods.
However, Lincoln's life and legacy were cut short that fateful night in 1865, when the actor John Wilkes Booth entered Ford's Theatre and killed the president with an assassin's bullet.
Today, only 130 photographs of President Lincoln are known to have survived. But is it possible that another image exists, secretly taken after he was shot, and kept hidden for over 150 years?
We find out as we meet director Jason Cohen and executive producer Dr Whitny Braun, the filmmakers behind the new documentary The Lost Lincoln.
Jason and Whitny take us on their journey to authenticate a newly discovered photo of Abraham Lincoln, one supposedly taken right after he died. In the process, we learn about this great American whose legacy still resonates with us today.
“Here’s this great man who means so much to us, and he was ultimately human. What do all humans experience? We ultimately experience death, and it's a tribute to the fallibility of humanity.” - Dr. Whitny Braun
Time Stamps:
02:56 - The synopsis of the film The Lost Lincoln.
03:56 - What Dr. Whitny Braun does as an authenticator.
05:48 - The success rate with authenticating items of potential historical value.
07:05 - How Whitny first heard about the "lost" Lincoln's photo.
09:25 - First clip: how Whitny checked the authenticity of the Lincoln photograph.
11:48 - When Whitny first thought to turn the topic into a documentary.
13:17 - How Jason Cohen got involved with the film.
15:01 - The difficulties with authenticating the photo.
22:58 - Whitny’s work as a bioethicist and the time she's spent working with the deceased.
25:23 - How attitudes towards death have changed over time.
28:12 - How Whitny and Jason validated the timeline of the photos creation.
30:20 - Who the Ulke brothers were and how they knew Lincoln.
31:59 - Second clip: how the Ulke brothers may have taken a photo of a dead Lincoln.
34:04 - Whitny's and Jason’s opinions of whether this photo is legitimate.
37:47 - How the public has responded to the film.
40:03 - How Jason decided on the structure of the film.
46:36 - How as a filmmaker Jason brought life to such an old subject.
48:36 - The controversy around the making of the film and how it almost got banned.
52:34 - What Whitny wants to come from the making of this documentary.
55:53 - Who had access to the photo over the years and how this adds to its authenticity.
58:50 - The importance of this photo and what it means to Whitny.
1:03:31 - Whether Lincoln could have survived if the bullet hadn’t been removed.
1:06:36 - What Whitny’s now working on.
Resources:
The Lost Lincoln
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Dr. Whitny Braun:
Connect with Jason Cohen:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 42 - The Mysterious Photo of Abraham Lincoln
Whitny Braun 0:00
Hi my name is Dr. Whitny Braun and I am the host and one of the executive producers of Undiscovered: The Lost Lincoln on Discovery Channel.
Jason Cohen 0:07
Hi, my name is Jason Cohen. I am the director and one of the executive producers of The Lost Lincoln on Discovery Channel.
Speaker 1 0:15
I am staring at a picture that just shouldn't exist.
Speaker 2 0:18
They took an illicit image of the dead presidents body.
Speaker 3 0:22
I have to find out if it's real.
Speaker 4 0:24
The Lost Lincoln, Sunday, October 4 at 9.00, part of Undiscovered, the new series on Discovery.
Intro 0:30
That is the trailer for the Discovery Channel documentary, The Lost Lincoln and this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo pictures, a production company that makes documentaries about America for an international audience.
Matthew 0:44
Considered by many to be America's greatest leader, and one of the most beloved presidents in history, there are only 130 known images of Abraham Lincoln on record. Credited with ending slavery and leading the nation out of one of its darkest periods, Lincoln's life and legacy were cut short that fateful night at Ford's Theater in 1865. Today, only limited items and a selection of known and verified photographs remain of the 16th President. But is it possible another image exists? One that was taken of the President in secret after he was shot, and has remained hidden for more than 150 years. We found out as we caught up with the filmmakers behind The Lost Lincoln, Whitny Braun and award winning director, Jason Cohen. Whitny Braun and Jason Cohen, welcome to Factual America. Whitney, how are things with you?
Whitny Braun 1:39
They are excellent. I mean, as well as can be, considering the fact that we're quarantining in my childhood bedroom.
Matthew 1:48
I think we're all back under quarantine. I am here in the UK. And Jason, how about yourself?
Jason Cohen 1:57
You know, about the same, I think we're all adjusting and hoping to get through this sooner than later. But I'm glad to be able to talk to you today.
Matthew 2:05
Well, indeed, glad to have you on. The film is The Lost Lincoln from Mark Wahlberg studio Unrealistic Ideas, Discovery Channel, came out in early October. It kicks off the Undiscovered series on the Discovery Channel. And I believe international release is set for December 20th, for many of our listeners who are international. So, Whitny and Jason, thank you so much for coming on. It's really great to have you here. Let's just sort of cut to the chase. And Jason, I'll go to you as the director, I mean, we've had the cold open the trailer. But for those who are maybe distracted or making a cup of tea or something, what is the, what's the synopsis of this film?
Jason Cohen 2:57
The Lost Lincoln is an investigation to look at the veracity of a undiscovered photo, allegedly, of Abraham Lincoln, on his deathbed. And the film, through Whitny, takes us on an investigation to understand whether this photo is authentic. And Whitny as a professional authenticator is the perfect person to do that.
Matthew 3:32
Indeed, and I think, Whitney, so first of all, authenticator, I mean, I'll channel my geeky self here, I think you've got the coolest job in the world. I told my 16 year old daughter about it. And she agrees. You get to research, I mean, you get paid to research and to authenticate whether historical items are legitimate or not. Is that right?
Whitny Braun 3:56
Yeah. I mean, I guess it comes from three sources. As a child, I grew up working in my dad's gun shop, and people would bring in, you know, old firearms and say was this, you know, Davy Crockett's Flintlock? Or was this, you know, and so and so. I loved watching Antiques Roadshow, and I loved Forensic Files. So you kind of, you know, merge those things together and try to figure out if you can use processes of deductive reasoning to determine if something is authentic. And I think the thing to remember is, you can never 100% say something is something, you just can't prove that it can't exist, you know. And so you try to just basically build up a preponderance of evidence, excuse me, I just stumbled over that word. You just try to build up a preponderance of evidence, you know, and try to see if there is anything that would make it impossible for it to exist and that's just, that's the thrill of it for me, you know, trying to find out if there's anything that says it can't be.
Matthew 4:57
Do you have an area that you specialize, is there a period of American history or anything?
Whitny Braun 5:02
Well, not a particular period of American history. I mean, like, I had mentioned, I grew up the daughter of a gunsmith and my dad is featured in the documentary. And so, I would say Western firearms, Civil War firearms, you know, that was kind of where I cut my teeth. But it really doesn't matter the object, right. I mean, it's the same process of looking through old documents and trying to establish a chain of custody and doing, you know, running an object through a series of litmus tests. So, yeah, I cut my teeth in American Western history, but I love to look into anything.
Matthew 5:37
May I ask, I mean, because I've seen the film. In this role as an authenticator, what's the success rate, if you will? I mean, are you debunking things all the time?
Whitny Braun 5:49
Very low. The success rate is very, very low. And I say this not to demean anyone who brings in an object that they think, you know, may have historic significance, but it's very common for someone to go to a yard sale and find a picture of somebody wearing a cowboy hat and go, Hey, I'm pretty sure this is, you know, this is historically significant figure or, you know, find a picture of somebody wearing a top hat and immediately assume it's Lincoln. So I would say, it's like less than 1%, that actually pans out. You know, it's a lot of disappointment, frankly. So that's why when you do find something that basically passed, when you do find something that passes muster, it's just cause for celebration, and why making this film was just so exciting and such an adventure.
Matthew 6:37
Well, and then, in that vein, so specifically what we're talking about on this podcast, what happened? The collector came to you basically saying they had this object and wanted you to do your job, which is to authenticate it. And what was your reaction when you heard about it and saw it?
Whitny Braun 7:01
Sure. So, being completely frank, when I first heard about it, it was via phone call. So I got a call from a gentleman who says, hey, I've got a picture taken of Abraham Lincoln, after he's dead, but he's still in the Peterson house. And my initial reaction was, yeah, yeah, sure. And I almost didn't follow up with it. I'll be frank, I almost didn't follow up on it. Because it just seemed, you know, a little too far fetched. But I do kind of a rule with myself that you just never know, right. The strangest things are found in the most unexpected places. So I did return the phone call. And I did talk with him. And he started mentioning things, that the average person that might find an object at a yard sale and come to you wouldn't know. He said, Well, you know, it was believed it have been taken by the Ulke brothers. And he started laying out certain little factoids that you kinda just go, wait a second, right? That just piques your curiosity. And so I said, well, can I see it? Because I can't do anything with just a verbal description. And so when I saw it, for the first time, I think my, I'm not exaggerating, I think my heart kind of skipped a beat. Because A) whether you think this image is of Lincoln or not, right, so the first point is whether you think it's Lincoln or not, it's a very startling image. It's a very startling image. And it's very obviously a 19th century image of the dead. And those are always kind of, you know, stark and startling. And then you start analyzing the features. And so immediately, my gut said, there's something here, but the scientific mind goes, we can't make that leap yet, you know, and so that's the investigation commences.
Matthew 8:58
I think that's a good point. You've gracefully shared some clips with us. And there's one that I think nicely sums up, now that we've gotten to this point, the authentication process that you go through with any object, whether it's a photo of Lincoln or not. So we've put that in here. We'll have a listen to that, or for those on YouTube, watch it, and then we'll come back.
Whitny Braun 9:26
Abraham Lincoln, probably our greatest president, represents to me one making the ultimate sacrifice for their country.
Speaker 1 9:33
Abraham Lincoln was a great leader at the moment of the nation's greatest crisis.
Speaker 2 9:39
He ended slavery, and he had won that horrible war.
Whitny Braun 9:44
The idea that there might be a photograph of Abraham Lincoln after he was shot in the world of authentication, that is like finding the Holy Grail. This image has the power to expose a tragic, dark and gruesome hour in American history. I have to find out if it's real. I'm going to conduct an authentication of the alleged Lincoln image to prove if it is, in fact, Lincoln, I'll investigate three areas. Provenance - provenance is a fancy way of saying Chain of Custody. Is there a clear Chain of Custody linking the night of the assassination to Larry Davis? Forensics - can it be scientifically proven that the man in the alleged Lincoln image is the 16th President of the United States? Timeline - I will examine the timeline of the night Lincoln died to get a minute by minute account of April 14 1865. Was there a window of opportunity in which a photo could have been taken after Lincoln was shot? To find out I'm going to the scene of the most infamous assassination in American history - Ford's Theater.
Matthew 11:02
Okay, I think that's, I thought that was really and it's the three strains of the film, obviously, what you discussed. Provenance, forensics and timeline to try to determine whether an object, in this particular case, a previously unknown photo of 16th US President, Abraham Lincoln, whether it's, well, whether it could possibly be real. So one thing that came to my mind, and Jason we'll get you in here shortly, but when did you, Whitny, when did you know you had a doc on your hands? Because obviously this takes some time, and you had to be filmed doing this.
Whitny Braun 11:49
Well, actually, just a little bit of backstory, we were looking at making a show that was looking at items of potentially far less significance. You know, of other items that people had found. And then the timing just happened to coincide with this image crossing my path. And so I spoke to one of our executive producers, Archie Gips, and I said, Archie, you know, we got to see this picture. And Archie kind of felt the same way that I did, you know, his heart skipped a beat. And then we were just committed to telling this story. And whatever the outcome was, we were still committed, because it's such an interesting image, that we went into it saying, hey, whatever the outcome it's going to be interesting, regardless. And it's fun to take people on the journey of how do you authenticate or debunk something. And then we said, we need to, you know, get this in the hands of someone who can really craft this as a little bit of like a true crime story, right, of sifting through the evidence. And then Jason was just the perfect person. And so we formed a team and it just, it just happened that way. I mean, it was just truly perfect timing on kind of all fronts that all of us were able to come together.
Matthew 13:12
And Jason, what did you think when you first got approached about this?
Jason Cohen 13:17
Yeah. So you know, executive producers, Archie Gips, and Paul Sadowski, who deserves a lot of credit, who really drove a lot of this, the narrative and the story on this. They came to me, and to be honest, my first meeting, I took the meeting, I was a little, I'll be honest, I was a little skeptical. It's not a type of film I really done in this genre specifically, but I do like good stories and storytelling. And in my first meeting, I did get to see a digital copy of the image, signed the NDA and all that stuff.
Matthew 13:54
We may talk about that later, but anyway.
Jason Cohen 13:58
Similarly, similarly to what Whitney said, I was fascinated. I mean, honestly I was a bit hooked. I wanted to know more. So what better way to know more than to go make a film about it. So I decided I wanted to be along that journey as we sort of peel back the layers and figure out what is the story behind this image and ultimately trying to figure out if it's authentic?
Matthew 14:27
I completely agree, having seen the film, I mean, you do take us on an incredible journey which however you come out, which either side you come out on this, I think is well worth taking. And speaking of the journey, you know, Whitney and Jason, so you have this, what was it about two years, this search. You make it look easy, but was it really that easy? You must have gone down a lot of rabbit holes, dead ends that we don't see necessarily on camera.
Whitny Braun 15:01
Yeah, this was not easy. And I think, you know, aged me quite a few years. So there's, two sides to this. There's the absolute stress of, you know, trying to find information that simply may have been destroyed over the last 150 years. So I have this sort of obsession with wanting to know the details and filling in the details. And it just kills me when there's just nothing to go to, right. There's no way to find information, there's nothing to know. And so this was quite difficult because this information was out there. But you had to go through a lot of old documentary evidence. You had to go talk to people and just compile all this information. And it was, yeah, it was definitely an uphill battle. I mean, just as simple as, as simple as trying to find old letters that people wrote back and forth to each other to verify conversations that people alleged that they had. So there's a lot actually that didn't make it in the documentary that was just part of piecing this whole story together to make sure that it held water.
Matthew 16:10
Yeah. And, maybe we'll talk a little bit more about this, and we're going to shortly take a bit of an early break. But everyone you have on camera, some raise some doubts, things like that. But did you have anybody that was just Nah, that's absolutely, I don't see how this could be.
Jason Cohen 16:33
Yeah, I mean, I think we had a mix. I think we had people who, even if they were skeptical, they still could see something in there that might push you one way or the other. And they at least understood why this possibly held some water and it could be authenticated, even if they strongly inside felt like it wasn't, it's not. You know, and I think that was part of this process. And sort of a little bit back to what Whitny was talking about of sort of, you know, we got curveballs along the way. And this was an active investigation. And that was for the filmmakers, for us, our goal was to be a fly on the wall of Whitney out, documenting this and trying to do her work, and for us to follow along. And we would get thrown curveballs where somebody would debunk something or confirm something. And that forced us to go chase down a different lead or a different person, go to a different venue, figure out another expert that could weigh in on something that we just learned in our trip to Washington DC. So, you know, it was sort of a little bit all over the map, I guess, for lack of a better term. Our travel was all over the map. But there were people that sort of pushed us in different directions. And our job was to try to investigate those as fully as we could. And obviously, you know, Whitny has done this before, so she understood about the provenance and the forensics and the timeline and trying to investigate each of those in each turn that it took based on the people that we were talking to.
Matthew 18:14
No, go ahead.
Whitny Braun 18:15
I just wanted to say, you know, something that's difficult when you're dealing with a figure like Abraham Lincoln, when you're showing people an image, is that the image that we're working with is believed, we pose it in the film, that it is believed to be taken, image taken of Abraham Lincoln, following his death, but you know, his eyes are still open. And that's very characteristic of 19th century Memorial photography. But it is an image that, to the 21st century eye, is quite, potentially quite macabre or off-putting. And also it's a person in death. So whether you are a fan of Lincoln, the president, the man or not, you tend to see Lincoln as he's depicted in our memorials and on the $5 bill and so you have a picture of Lincoln, you know, the rail splitter. Lincoln, the strong uniter of the nation. But this is a picture of someone at their most, you know, fragile state. This is a picture of somebody in death. And I think some of the people that we showed the image to, they wouldn't necessarily question all the historical facts, they'd just go - I don't see it, that doesn't look like him. And what it reminds me of sometimes is when you're in a funeral home, and you see someone in the casket, they don't look like you knew them in life. And I think this picture posed a particular challenge, because most pictures that I have investigated, okay, all actually, prior to this, all pictures that I investigated depicted a person in life. And you don't realize how much is captured in a person's eyes when they're alive. And how much that changes when the life goes out of them. So I think that was a unique aspect of this investigation that I'd never encountered before.
Matthew 20:13
I think you raised some very interesting points and answered even a few questions I was going to ask about this. And I think, let's hold those thoughts because I think you raised some very interesting points about 21st versus 19th century attitudes and things like that. But in the meantime, let's, for our listeners, let's take a quick break, a little bit of an early break and a pause for a word from our sponsor. So hold tight, and we'll be back shortly with Whitny, and Jason.
Factual America midroll 20:48
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at Alamo pictures to keep up to date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew 21:08
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Whitny Braun. And Jason Cohen, both executive producers. Jason is the director and Whitny is the host, the presenter of The Lost Lincoln, out on discovery in the US and in the rest of the world by end of December. Before the break, we were talking about this image and, if I may say personally and as an American, I mean, I've been living in the UK for a while, but I am an American, a US citizen, born and raised. I found it difficult to, so we do see the image, for everyone out there, you do see the image in the doc. I found it difficult. And I think you've already said it was partly because it's an image of a dead person with the eyes open. Maybe that was part of it. I mean, for me, I think like you say, we have all these images of Abraham Lincoln. And to see that was, the first few times you put it on screen, I must say I found it difficult to look at and to watch. For whatever reason, whatever my sort of hang ups are. Although you answered one of my questions ahead. Because I did think about this. If you go to a funeral home and see how someone looks in death versus how they looked in life, which I think raises an interesting point because you do, Whitney, I know your day job is a professor, isn't it?
Whitny Braun 22:51
Yeah. I'm sorry, I just talked over you. So yeah, my day job is I'm the director of the Master's program in bioethics. I'm a clinical bioethicist.
Matthew 23:01
But you also know some things about death rituals and this sort of thing. Is that right?
Whitny Braun 23:07
Yeah. So I did my doctoral dissertation work on the Jain ritual of Sallekhana, which is a voluntary fasting, where the practitioner decides to give up all worldly possessions and slowly wean themselves off of consuming other life forms, which results in very gradual, slow starvation. And so yeah, from my time in India, and my time working in hospital, I started out my career as a paramedic, I'm not unfamiliar with the deceased. And so I think when I first saw this picture, I was able to look at it and see what mattered, which was, you know, the facial features the elements of a person that don't change. Because I do know, I mean, we always say this to med students, right? You just can tell when the patient's dead, you don't have to take the pulse. There's something that happens when a person dies, and the light goes out of their eyes, the face changes. And so when I saw that picture, I immediately went, Oh, my gosh, this, I see, you know, the facial features of Lincoln minus the essence of the man. And I've seen that with many other people over the years. And so I think maybe my first time seeing it might have been a reaction that was different than another person seeing it for the first time.
Matthew 24:33
I think that's something, since we're talking about it, what it, because in your research, you were noting, I liked this comment you captured in the film, Jason, as well about, you're at the National Archives. And I used to live in Washington DC and I've done research at the National Archives and the Library of Congress. But you've got access that people like me would have dreamed have had. But not to let previous reporting lead you astray, I think was the essence of what you were talking about with the guy from the Marshal's office. And what do you see? How have attitudes towards death between then and now changed? I think that's part of, a sort of a side story to this, isn't it?
Whitny Braun 25:22
Yeah. I think the differences between how we view death today and the way death was viewed in 1865 America, can't be overstated. I mean, you can hear about things such as, like we call a living room, in our house, a living room, because once upon a time when people died at home, you displayed the body in the casket in the front window of the house. So, you know, I'm thinking of other examples of today, like over 98% of Americans die in the hospital. But 75 years ago, most Americans and I think this is true for most of the world, most people died in their bed at their home. And so people lived with death. And like, as much as we are reeling and hurting from all the people that we have lost because of COVID, I think it's more traumatic for us today, because we're so unaccustomed to living with death. When in 1865, when this photo was taken, infectious disease was the number one killer. So I think, you know, I could go on for days. And I'm sure Jason can speak to this as well. I mean, Jason's wife is a physician. And Jason knows well, you know, how people have come to regard death as a very foreign entity, as opposed to something that lives alongside them day by day.
Matthew 26:40
It's interesting. Go ahead, Jason.
Jason Cohen 26:43
Yeah, I was just going to add, I think beyond how we view death, then and now, the one thing that was always coming to the surface on this, and I think you hit on it a little bit there at that scene at the National Archives, is that we were dealing with, arguably the most revered president in US history. And one of the most revered people in US history. And that instantly is going to bring more scrutiny. And we knew that. So no matter what we said, and when you put a picture of someone who's that reverential out there in this, you know, compromised state, it's going to bring strong opinions. So beyond what you think of how people think of death then and now, add to that, who we're putting out there and telling you that this person who you've grown up as school kids knowing Honest Abe and what he stands for, now we're telling you look at this, you know, unfortunately macabre picture of him.
Matthew 27:44
Maybe, I have no problems talking about death. But maybe let's bring this back to, and I'll take the responsibility for going down a bit of a tangent here. But one thing that you do show, because I've mentioned this to a few people in passing, they were like, hold on, the old days, how would they have, how would they have done this? But you do, Whitny, you show that this, certainly the timeline is possible, isn't it?
Whitny Braun 28:12
Yeah. The timeline is absolutely possible, which we didn't go into the documentary and the research, thinking that necessarily. I mean, that was really a question we needed answered. And the only way we could answer that was to get Mark Osterman and France Osterman, who are undeniably the leading experts in collodion photography in the world to essentially replicate the process. And they explained that the camera is actually quite small and light, if you prep the plate, and, you know, Washington DC was quite humid in April so that the collodion mixture on the glass plate would stay in the appropriate solution on the glass plate, pop it in, take the lens cap off, you get the exposure from the natural light coming in through the window, you could do that. And given the proximity of the Ulke's to the scene, you know, where the photo was taken. And also simply the fact that we know they took other pictures, right? We don't have to argue that fact, we know that they had a camera in the room. You know that's what, you know, I think was initially going to feel like the biggest challenge but what turned out in the end, oh it's actually a much simpler process than I realized.
Matthew 29:30
I think just for listeners who may not know, not everyone on this, you know, I'm just going to say, and having lived in Washington, if you ever go visit Washington, I highly recommend going to Ford's Theater. It's sometimes off the beaten track a bit for some tourists but basically Lincoln is shot at Ford's Theatre, taken over to the Peterson house. By pure coincidence, one of those pure coincidences that we often see in history, the Ulke brothers board there. And Henry becomes, or I don't know if he was yet known at that point, as a painter of presidents, isn't he? And then we have a clip about the Ulke brothers, but maybe give us a little background on how this could have even been possible.
Whitny Braun 30:18
Sure. So the Ulke brothers were two very prominent photographers slash journalists slash scientists actually living in the DC area in the 1860s. They actually worked at the Smithsonian. They were quite famous for pioneering microscopic photographic techniques of beatles. So they were really, really, truly kind of in the vanguard, right of early photographers. And they coincidentally were renting a room that was directly above the room in the Peterson house where Lincoln was brought. And because of their physical presence in the room or in the building, they got, in essence, conscripted into service as almost like orderlies to spend the entire night running back and forth, bringing linens, boiling water. So they had full access. And then the next morning, we were able to determine this through again, contemporary documentary evidence. We know for example, Henry Ulke is seen leaving the Peterson House about seven that morning. We know he comes back, because he takes the known photos, right? The known photos of the empty bed. Where did he go? I often wonder. I think maybe he went to get a camera. I don't know that for sure. But we know a camera ends up in the room. We know that they had access to the room through a back stairwell. And we know that they were adept, and we show this in the documentary, at making ambrotypes, which is the specific type of glass plate image that we're dealing with in the story.
Matthew 31:50
Okay. Well, let's listen to that clip now. And we'll be back very shortly with Whitny and Jason.
Whitny Braun 31:58
So we know quite a few things, actually, about the Ulke brothers. We know that they took a photo of the empty room after Lincoln had passed and everyone had cleared out. We also know that they lived directly upstairs. So as the timeline goes, the President's body is removed at approximately what time?
Speaker 1 32:17
That would be at about 9.30.
Whitny Braun 32:19
When approximately did the Ulkes take their photographs?
Speaker 1 32:22
Well, the deathbed photo would have had to be taken some time after 930.
Whitny Braun 32:28
And that picture isn't seen by the public until the 1960s, almost 100 years later.
Speaker 1 32:34
Yes. Henry, in 1891 told the newspapers that it was never a photo taken inside Peterson house.
Whitny Braun 32:47
Why would Henry Ulke have denied that there were any photos taken inside of the Peterson house, when we know for a fact that they at least took two of the empty bed in that room? Is it possible they took another image of the dead president between 722 and the 930 on the morning of April 15 1865.
Matthew 33:14
Okay, I think that gets to the timeline question. Now, we're not going to go hash this out. This is a documentary that everyone I highly recommend. I think you've, my credit to you, I think you've set it up very well. Like you say, it's capturing a journey, but I think you certainly lay out the arguments very well. And so I don't think we need to, if you don't mind, I don't think we need to necessarily rehash those here. I just recommend listeners go watch it. But Whitny, are you, not to give anything away, no spoiler alerts, but are you in a position to say, at least on this podcast, are you able to say what your conclusions are?
Whitny Braun 34:00
Yeah, absolutely. So this is the conclusion that I have arrived at. Scientifically speaking, there is no piece of evidence that we came across that made it impossible for this picture to exist, right? There was nothing that contradicted that there was a window of opportunity for the photo to be taken, qualified people there to take the photo, and then a provenance or chain of custody that made sense. Then if we throw in the physical evidence, the forensics, you know, the glass plate matches an mid 1860s vintage, the facial mapping on the face matches known anomalies in the skin of Abraham Lincoln. For me, there's nothing to say it can't be. So at that point, given the preponderance of evidence, I have to, you know, basically rely on Occam's razor here, right, that all things considered, the simplest explanation is the most likely. You have a photo of a man that is either Abraham Lincoln or his identical twin. But if he's his identical twin, which we have no record of, he's also been shot and suffered a head wound that is consistent with the autopsy report of Abraham Lincoln. And that there would be, in my opinion, statistically, too many coincidences for this to be anyone other than Abraham Lincoln. So, at the end of the day, I arrive at the belief that it is Abraham Lincoln. That being said, the world is full of surprises and possibilities. And you know, you can never say anything is 100% certain, right? I can't prove the existence of God. I just can't prove that God doesn't exist. Subs borrow from Kant there. But that's, that's essentially what this is, right? We can never 1 billion % prove that this is Lincoln. But we can't prove that it's not and with all the factors that we have on the table to consider what plausible scenario is there that it's not? So that's kind of where I stand on it.
Matthew 36:03
Okay. Jason, are you of a similar view?
Jason Cohen 36:08
I mean, I feel like our goal with the film is to present all this evidence that we came across, put it out there, and let the audience make their own informed decision based on watching Whitny do this investigation, hear from all the experts we talked to, look at all the evidence that's been put together. I like Whitny agree that we can't ever say without certainty whether it is or isn't. But I think that our goal is to put it all out there to have the viewer make as an informed decision as they can about. And some people will never believe it. And some people will. I mean, and that's the society we live in. And that's not a bad thing.
Matthew 36:53
Yeah, well, indeed. And I think, just maybe a final point on that is, maybe something we can talk about later about people gaining access, eventually to the actual ambrotype photo on a glass plate. But are there now moves afoot by scholars to maybe look at, based on the work you all have done, at trying to maybe, you know? There's always going to be skeptics, like you said. I won't even share what my view is, given what you've just said, because I think that's a perfect way of leaving it. But, you know, are there moves afoot? I mean, you had some scholars come on, some leading scholars, Lincoln scholars. So are there, I guess you must have people beating down your door, or whoever has the image, wanting to get their, get their hands on this.
Whitny Braun 37:47
Well, I can see this. Since the documentary aired in the US, actually, my email mailbox at the university got over 1000 emails in one week and actually clogged up my inbox. My students weren't really thrilled about that. With people asking questions and posing their objections, I mean, but this is what I will say about it. It was completely civil. And I have to say, in our society, I was expecting an onslaught of like name calling, and who do you think you are? And how dare you? None of that. I got really gracious emails from people saying, you know, I don't agree with you, because the nose doesn't look right to me. Or, you know, I don't agree to you, because I don't agree with you, because I just don't think that they would have taken a picture of the President. I just don't think they would have, it would have been shame for. But no one has been rude. Everybody's been incredibly gracious. And I'll say this, that I feel like people had fun watching the show, and are still having fun in the treasure hunt, of trying to find other evidence. Because I'm getting people who sent me like newspaper clippings saying, hey, there was a person allegedly showing a picture of dead Abraham Lincoln in this newspaper clipping from 1954. But I don't know if it's the same picture. Do you think it could be the same picture? So yeah, there's a bunch of, I would say amateur investigators looking at it. I have no idea about the scholarly community. I only know who's reached out to me via email. And there's a ton of citizen investigators out there who seemingly are having a great time looking into this.
Matthew 39:19
Well, I think you've restored my faith in a fellow man, actually. And it's great to hear, especially at times like these that and, maybe it's being removed by 150 years, though, that hasn't necessarily proved the case on other issues. Jason, I think you've already said how you got involved. You got approached about making this as a filmmaker. And I think we've talked a little bit about, you gave, I guess, Paul Sadowski quite a shout out but how did you decide to tell this story structure, I mean - presenter lead versus narration. You put Whitny in front of the camera. How did you go about that?
Jason Cohen 40:03
Yeah, well, I think from the outset, we knew we didn't want to use a narrator. This story is, ultimately it's a bit of Whitny's personal journey. So we wanted it to be her voice and I, myself never refer to Whitny as a host or presenter. She's an investigator on her journey. She's our guide. She's guiding the audience along. But I don't like to refer to her in the traditional sense of a host who's there to tell the audience what to think. Rather, we are there watching her do her work, and then you take from it what you will, instead of her telling you, what exactly, how to look at something, or how to go forward with something. So yeah, the intention was always that this is a personal journey and we are along for the ride. And that was, you know, the whole team, Paul, and Archie Gips, other executive producers, you know, from the get go, we were intent on that and wanted it to feel that way. Where you're sort of brought into it, and you're along for the ride with her and an active part of it, as opposed to just being told what's going on. And that's why we wanted to be there when she meets with these people the first time. The first time she walks into the Ford's Theater, you know, that reaction of, you talked about it, I got it, walking into the National Archives. And that raw emotion of actually going to these places, and it is, you do feel it when you're there. I felt it when I was there. It was, you know, one of the cool, cool aspects of this film was being able to go to these iconic places, and really understanding what it was all about.
Matthew 41:49
Yeah. And you would agree, I thought, Whitny's a natural in front of the camera.
Jason Cohen 41:55
I surely agree. Yeah, she was great. When I told people she had never really done this before they were surprised. So Whitny did a great job. She got so used to us, you know, kind of hanging around. We usually had two or three cameras, following her wherever she went. And, you know, she really was a prone and fell into it and got used to it.
Matthew 42:20
Not to put words in your mouth, but would you say, as a documentarian, that if you're following someone who's truly passionate, knowledgeable about their subject, they're going to be, most likely will be good in front of the camera.
Jason Cohen 42:33
Yeah, and you know, sorry, go ahead.
Intro 42:36
No, go ahead. I'm sorry. I made it look like I was about to jump over, you know.
Jason Cohen 42:40
Yeah. And listen, Whitny's been doing this for a long time. She knows what she's doing. And that's completely evident on camera. When you see her asking the right questions and how to approach things and how to, you know, critically think about things, most importantly, in a job like this. And not being swayed so easily one way or the other, and being able to look at the whole big picture and question everything. And she does that. And I learned a lot about her job and what she does and how you have to approach it and do it.
Matthew 43:13
I think it's a very fascinating job. But again, that may be my own personal sort of background. But Whitny, this must have been fun. You got your dad starring on this?
Whitny Braun 43:24
Oh, yeah. I mean, my dad played a huge role in the investigation that just doesn't always get captured on camera. Because we don't, you know, we don't have me on the phone with him constantly in the documentary. But you know, I mean, my dad's who taught me how to do this. And so one of the experiments that we did was, you see in the documentary, we did a ballistics test. So, we were able to, you know, get a replica of the same type of Derringer that was used in the assassination. And that was like, you know, I felt like a kid again, to a certain extent. Because it's like, you know, getting to play. We were getting to play. We're getting to do this together. And I can't give my dad enough credit for helping in this process with a lot of the research.
Matthew 44:14
Yeah, for those of, even for you who've made it this far in the podcast and are still not interested necessarily in knowing whether this is a photo or not of Abraham Lincoln. It's well worth watching just for the scene where you're doing the ballistics test, I would say. I thought that was, I was wondering where are they going with this? But it was a lot of fun. And I see that bomber jacket behind you. (laughs) I love the comment bomber jacket, dad, you didn't get the bomber jacket memo or you did get the bomber jacket memo...
Whitny Braun 44:45
I really questioned free will, whether free will exist or not. Because my dad and I, over the years have periodically shown up at events where we have not discussed in advance what we are going to be wearing. And we're wearing exactly the same outfit. I'm wearing the feminine version. He's wearing the masculine version. But it makes me just question whether or not I actually have any free will. Because we somehow make parallel decisions.
Matthew 45:09
And I think that's a whole nother podcast. I mean, you're the first guest to quote Kant, but there you go.
Jason Cohen 45:16
I was just gonna comment one thing about, just in general, this idea of, you know, you mentioned that, how are we going to fit this in. But that was a big intention going in, you know, with the film, was like, figuring out using modern technology to help us. Things that were not available then, to help us try to decipher exactly what happened, what this image is. And, you know, being able to do ballistic tests and facial recognition, technology, and things that we had at our disposal were a big part of this. And we knew that going in, and that was a big part of the plan from the beginning. And so, and it's funny when you say it, because I got the same reaction when I told somebody, we're going to film at a shooting range. And, you know, so how does that help in telling an archival narrative. But it was, it was helpful, I think. I think it does give the viewer something to kind of be able to connect with and put their hands on a little bit more and understand a little bit more what we're looking at.
Matthew 46:20
Yeah, and that's one thing that you, as a filmmaker, I mean, maybe this is one of the elements, how do you go about bringing 150 year old mystery to life? Especially one that doesn't benefit from archival film or footage?
Jason Cohen 46:35
Yeah, well, I think part of what drew me in, you know, was this idea of like, being able to shoot it as an active investigation, as opposed to just talking head archival retelling of an events, you know. Without Whitney driving the narrative and having her to follow to all these different places, and we do obviously get into, we need to tell what happened with a little bit of that in the archival footage, archival photography, and the talking heads from historians, which are all part of this. You know, having this active element was such a huge part of this, where you can, you know, really kind of dive in and sink your teeth into it as it's happening and unfolding before your eyes. And for me, that was a big draw of the project to begin with. And Archie and Paul, our executive producers had already done a lot of the legwork and figuring out, you know, who we can talk to and who we can go out and follow and go into Illinois and DC and New York and California to kind of find all these different aspects of the story.
Matthew 47:37
You must had a hell of a travel budget, but I think, you know, I think that's a very good point, for those listeners. It's not, nothing against Ken Burns, but it's not Ken Burns Civil War. I mean, it's as you as you described it, it's very much, we've touched on a few times. It's a bit of a true crime. It's a journey. It's following Whitny on this journey of discovery, which is very compelling and entertaining. Now it strikes me, having you here, I wouldn't be remiss if I didn't ask some questions about how this film almost didn't see the light of day. And I'm not sure, I don't want to go into too many details there. But I mean, do you want to maybe take this opportunity to say some things about others who are saying that this film should not have been allowed to be shown.
Whitny Braun 48:36
I mean, I don't know that there's anything that we can legally say, you know, at this point, other than that, the injunction was was tossed out. I mean, you know. And again, the ownership of the image is a completely different matter, than the authenticity, right? I mean, the Mona Lisa is the Mona Lisa, regardless of whether it's at the Louvre or in the Smithsonian, who owns it, it's irrelevant. And so that was the attitude that we took is that whoever ends up owning this at the end of the day, that's what they choose to do with it. That's, that's completely on them. I mean, neither Jason nor myself have any ownership in the image. We won't ever see the ownership in the image. So we just said, we're just going to tell the story of its authenticity, or lack thereof, depending on which way it went, right? We didn't know necessarily going in what the result of this was going to be. And so we're going to tell that story. And the ownership is for the courts to decide and for it to be handled in a completely different form than what we're focusing on.
Matthew 49:42
Okay. So have you actually seen, because what we seein the film is a digital copy of the actual. Have you actually seen the original ambrotype?
Whitny Braun 49:54
I have. So the image that we're using in the documentary, the image passed through many owners. And the image that we're looking at, we're exploring it with Larry Davis. Now, Larry Davis is the gentleman that is the linchpin here, between Margaret Hanks who is the relative of Abraham Lincoln, who had it in a steamer trunk in her house. You know, Larry Davis is the link to our president. And so we talked to him. And really, that's all that mattered for our purposes, because who legally owns it today is again, not relevant to the authenticity of the image. Larry Davis is the one that took it in hand from Margaret Hanks, and the details she shared with him, were what we needed to know whether the image was real or not. And she, Margaret Hanks to me is this perfect example of how history goes undiscovered, right? Here's a woman who's a relative of Lincoln, living this life of obscurity in a house that was ultimately condemned. I mean, her house was considered a hoarders house, you know, when she passed away. And she had a steamer trunk full of all of these amazing photos that, we don't get into in the documentary, but there was a whole collection of photos. It's just the one of Lincoln is the most outstanding of the Hanks and the Lincoln families. And what kills me is if Larry Davis hadn't gotten that image from her, that would have all just gone in a dumpster. Right, that would have all gone a dumpster. And that happens so much. And so, I have a job doing this that I love, largely because so much of history literally just gets dumped in the trash. Because people die, the story dies with them. And you know, a granddaughter comes in and wants to flip the house and sell it. So, they call in a dumpster and a crew and away that history goes. And that's to me, the great tragedy of our time, in many ways.
Matthew 51:56
Yeah, I think although you're giving, you're giving rationale for hoarders everywhere now. I think, myself included. My wife and I find it too, I don't even know to go there, but some of the furniture you find, that's just been given away. People just don't realize what they've got on their hands.
Whitny Braun 52:18
I mean, there's crazy examples of like a guy bought Ansel Adams original glass plates of his photographs of Yosemite at a garage sale in Fresno several years back. I mean, you know, the examples are plentiful. But I think if I had one dream going into this process, and I said this a million times to Archie, Archie Gips our executive producer, I would just hope that whether you believe this is Lincoln or not, right, and you can completely poopoo us and not agree with the conclusions, but if it just makes one person go into their attic and go, Hey, you know, I got some cool photos up there, I should probably take a second look at that before I put it in the dumpster, this spring cleaning session. If one person saves one piece of history, because they watched our documentary, I'm gonna call this a success.
Matthew 53:05
Okay, and then you've got a series on your hands, don't you? One thing I wanted, because I don't want to harp on this, but so what we're alluding to, dear listeners, there's Google it, you'll find things, but basically, there's a dispute around the ownership of the image. And you've gotten caught up a little bit into this. And they tried to put a temporary restraining order on the release of the film. Now, what is public records, they've put out press releases, and one thing that caught my eye and I was just curious if you wanted to, they are claiming that the photo was taken before Lincoln died. Is that correct? I mean, is that what they, is that your understanding?
Whitny Braun 53:47
Well, that's the assertion that they are making. But that is not our finding. Soour findings in terms of constructing a timeline that matched with the moment of opportunity to take the picture, the physical light available to capture the image and who was physically present to take the image, would put the image at roughly 9am on the morning of April 15 1865. So he was pronounced at about 720 - 722. And then his body was still in the Peterson house until between 9 - 930 when the quartermaster Corps, led by George Valentine Rutherford brought in a casket. They had to have a custom casket made for him because he was so tall. And so we, you know, kind of factoring all these things together. There was a window of time of about an hour where George Valentine Rutherford, who in our chain of custody is the one that brought it to Quincy and gave it to Margaret Hanks grandfather. He had a one hour window of time where he was in control of that room, and where the Ulkes were still cleaning up the room from the previous night's activities. And where we know a camera was in the room because they took those other images. So no, we don't believe that it was taken the night before, we believe it was taken roughly between, let's just say between 830 and 930, the next day.
Matthew 55:17
And some of that was out, it's in the film. And one last thing on this is, you go to Rochester, New York, the home of Eastman Kodak. However, it still exists these days. And I think that's where your expert on ambrotypes is. Is that this, you talked to it, but he said he'd seen the image before. Is that right?
Whitny Braun 55:44
Yeah. So you know, it might be a misnomer to say that this image was completely undiscovered. Because the image has existed and has been seen by other people over the years. And that was actually part of the provenance is going back to Quincy, Illinois, and going back to everybody who said, Oh, yeah, yeah, I had dinner with Margaret Hanks in 1978. And she pulled it out. And then, you know, so, yes. Has it been publicly seen prior to our documentary? No. But, you know, there are stories going back 150 plus years of people who were like, Oh, yeah, I saw it, or Oh, you know, hey, I went, I talked to so and so who said they saw it. So that was part of the chase early on with the image was if a picture just shows up, and no one's ever heard of it, or seen it before, that's actually very hard to authenticate. But when you can go back, and there's an established trail, including old newspaper clippings, you know, people talking about it in the Quincy Historical Society saying, Oh, yeah, somebody brought it here. And, you know, when you can find all those little kernels going back 100 years that don't actually make for great documentary filler. Like dinner at Margaret Hanks house in the late 70s, isn't maybe going to fill an entire scene in the documentary. You know, there was a lot of that, that just didn't make it to the final film of being, of researching its existence over the past 150 years.
Matthew 57:15
Okay. Well, and as we all know, loads and loads of footage ends up on the cutting room floor in order to make a feature doc. So I guess what's pending is this ownership dispute. And then we don't know how that will play out. But at some point there, I guess the hope would be that it does go public in some form or fashion?
Whitny Braun 57:44
Well, the hope would be that whoever wins the ownership battle, would be open to doing more testing. Because, you know, what if we could dust for fingerprints, you know? What if we could find trace amounts of DNA on it? What if we, you know, there's just a laundry list of other tests that you can do if you could, if you had the permission to physically access the image. But for now, it is being held by the courts. And so, you know, just wait and hope and pray that someday that we can do more research?
Matthew 58:16
Okay. And, you know, so both of you, as Americans, if this is indeed a photo of the last or the lost, I should say, the lost photo of Abraham Lincoln, the 131st image that we become aware of. What is, and each one of you take a turn on this, what do you think is the importance of this image?
Whitny Braun 58:45
Do you want to go first, Jason?
Jason Cohen 58:47
Go ahead.
Whitny Braun 58:48
Okay. Um, so, people will say, well, it's gonna change history. It doesn't change history. Lincoln is still Lincoln. History is still played out the way it's played out. But what it means to me and I cannot speak for what it means to the greater public, I think can be summarized by the fact that early on, when I had showed the image to people, a lot of people's reaction was Oh, oh, that's macabre, oh, that's disrespectful. You know, that image, to show him in such a frail state. And I don't see it that way. I mean, I think if I felt that this was remotely disrespectful, or had malintent, I wouldn't want to pursue this. But I don't feel that way at all. I mean, I feel like here is this great man who means so much to us and he was ultimately human. And, you know, what do all humans experience but we ultimately experience death. And I think that in a way, it's a tribute to the fallibility of humanity, right. That we can fight, we can do wonderful things. We can move mountains, we can unite nations, we can free slaves. But father time comes for all of us, and sometimes sooner than later and unfortunately, in his case, from an assassin's bullet, because he stood for something. And it makes me think of one of my favorite quotes, and I'm not getting the words right, exactly, but it's the sentiment is, Winston Churchill said, you know, people don't like you - good, that means you stood for something. And obviously, Abraham Lincoln stood for something. And that was ultimately what cost him his life. Cause John Wilkes Booth very much did not approve of the Emancipation Proclamation or, you know, reunifying the country and took Lincoln's life as a result. So, I don't see it as disrespectful, I see it as a memorial, right, a memorial image to someone who gave their life in service of their country. And that's just me. I mean, other people may view it differently. But I view it as a very poignant moment captured in time that makes you appreciate a sacrifice that another American made so we can have the life that we have.
Matthew 1:01:02
And what do you think, Jason?
Jason Cohen 1:01:03
I think we hit on it a little bit in the film. And for me it's, you know, there's 130 images of Lincoln. And they're almost exclusively very staid, portraits, very set up, you know. And as a filmmaker, you know, when I show up with a camera, I'm not as interested in, if I show up to like a press conference, I'm not as interested in setting up in the middle with the shot directly looking at the person talking, I want to be around the side and seeing what's going on back there and sort of, you know, if there's some chaos or getting real emotion. And I think that's what this picture actually shows some real emotion and vulnerability in somebody that people thought they knew. But probably only knew so much based on legend and photos we've seen. And I think, just getting a little bit of that window into somebody that they, and I think Whitny said this, that, you know, they're a human being. And I think giving some of that, a little bit more of that insight into seeing somebody in the statement. And I agree, when I was first told about this, I kind of assumed, oh, a gory picture, postmortem picture. It's not that at all. It is a little eerie. But it is not a gourd, it's not sensational in that way. And I do think it does give you a little bit, it pulls back the curtain a little bit on somebody, a figure that we've all known for years.
Whitny Braun 1:02:36
You know what. I'm so sorry. See, what I kind of liken it to is a lot of times, you know, in our culture that reveres strength as an essential part of masculinity, when a man starts to decline, he retires from public life. So that people only remember him in his most robust form. And I've always felt, I don't care for that idea. I don't think that there's anything disrespectful or shameful about the natural progression of life and death. And in whatever form you exist in, you know, whether it be at your full strength or in a state of disability. That is who you are, that does not diminish you as a person. And so that's how I feel about this photo, it does not in any way diminish the greatness of Lincoln.
Matthew 1:03:19
Okay. And I said that was going to be maybe the last thing, but one thing that did, it's toward the end of the film, if you don't mind me raising this, I found remarkable. I had never heard this before. You talk to someone about the autopsy? And he says that the wound did not have to be mortal. Is that correct?
Whitny Braun 1:03:42
Yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up. Because I actually got quite a few comments on that myself from people. You know, I work in the medical community and there's actually a theory, right, that one of the reasons in movies that they always show like in the old Western, when they pull a bullet out of somebody, and they drop it in a pan, you hear that clink sound, that that actually is inspired by the autopsy description of when they lifted Lincoln's brain, the bullet fell out in a pan and made an echoing sound. And the belief at the time, was that if you could basically dislodge the bullet and get it out that would allow the tissue to heal. Today, we wouldn't do that, right. And so then in their attempts to dislodge the bullet, they were essentially damaging the white matter in the brain, you know. So yeah, I mean, it may, according to, it may not have been fatal if it had been just left alone. But, you know, the attempts to do the right thing may have actually ultimately caused his demise.
Matthew 1:04:44
Okay. And I think I won't go into too much more detail, but you do say, I mean, you talk to someone who's an expert on Lincoln's health, and so looks like he wasn't long for this world. Anyway, not that it's great that he left this world the way he did. But I thought that was very interesting, because it's not something that, that is, I mean, you bring a lot of new things to the historical record, I'd say. Or even bring things out that maybe people had forgot, kind of lost track of. But it was an interesting point. I think, I hate to say, but I think we're coming to the end of our time together. And so well, Jason, let me start with you. What's next for you? What projects do you have after this?
Jason Cohen 1:05:33
You know, I think everyone's in a little bit of a, you know, I've spent the last few months actually developing a lot of ideas that had kind of been sitting on the shelf for a bit, because I did have a few projects that were getting ready to go and they kind of got delayed, let's say, for a bit. We're hoping, hoping to get back but it has given me time to kind of revisit some projects I had been developing and getting some writing done. And we're hoping, you know, we're hoping things get to the point where we can get back out and really start filming as we would like to do on projects in a safe manner.
Matthew 1:06:15
Okay. Well, best of luck with that. I have, I must say I'd kind of forgotten. Not that I forgot about COVID. But I've kind of stopped asking the COVID question, but yes, it is, it's more than the elephant in the room, obviously. But Whitny, what about for you besides being a professor of bioethics and a authenticator? What's next for you?
Whitny Braun 1:06:36
Well, besides those two things, I mean, it's sort of a, it's a busy time, because I teach public health ethics, right. So this is kind of my busiest time in my career. But people are not antiquing right now. It's not a surprise, right? People aren't going to swap meets and fair. So that area for me has dried up just a little bit. And actually, though, I'm actually working with a law firm doing investigations into some old legal cases, because it's the same process, right. So, I'm actually doing legal investigation right now.
Matthew 1:07:09
Are you doing cold cases?
Whitny Braun 1:07:10
Yeah, I'm actually. Working for a law firm working on that. And I mean, I love it, right. I mean, whether you're doing contact tracing. Because that's how I got in to healthcare, actually, in large part. I did my Master's in Public Health because I like doing contact tracing and working your way back to patient zero. Investigation is the same whatever the field, and so I just enjoy doing that. So now I'm working with a law firm doing some cold cases. And then, my fiance has been stuck in a hotel room in Peru since March 16 because of the quarantine, so I'm gonna be able to go see him finally on December 15. And then we will start our life. So that's what's next for me is having a reunion with Jorge.
Matthew 1:07:55
Oh, congratulations. Yes, I too know some people, not Peruvians, but people who were stuck in Peru for a while. Because they were one of the first ones to lock down. Yeah, that's, wow. Well, this is one hell of a year for you, isn't it? But best of luck with that, and congratulations, and I'm glad you're gonna get to meet up with Jorge. Hello, Jorge. If you watch this, we're giving you a shout out. Well, let me wrap up there. I want to thank both of you. Whitny Braun, Jason Cohen thanks so much for being on the podcast. This has been very much appreciated. For those of you, just to remind you, we were talking about The Lost Lincoln, out on Discovery in the US and possibly other places, but definitely out internationally on December 20. I also want to give a shout out here to This Is Distorted Studios here in Leeds, England. Please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. And this is Factual America signing off.
Factual America Outro 1:09:09
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