Linda Ronstadt: An Homage to Mexican Americans
The singing career of Linda Ronstadt spanned five decades. A versatile and talented artist, she has won ten Grammys, three American Music Awards, two Academy of Country Music Awards and an Emmy. Along the way, she recorded the biggest selling foreign language album of all time.
Now retired from singing, Linda continues to give back to the community, as captured by award-winning director and producer James Keach in Linda and the Mockingbirds.
James joins us to share a side of Linda Ronstadt that few have seen. His music-filled, road trip-style film captures the essence of Mexican-American culture and the immigrant experience.
The film provides a beautiful look into the coming together of two cultures. It also portrays the hardships far too many immigrant children must go through.
“With the internet, social media, and the amount of interactions we have, we realise there are so many different human experiences to ours that we’re curious about.” - James Keach
Time Stamps:
04:11 - When and where Linda and the Mockingbirds will be released.
05:35 - What inspired James to make this film.
08:27 - Who Linda Ronstadt is.
11:18 - How Linda is involved with helping children get into singing and dance.
13:35 - James’s road trip to Mexico with Linda Ronstadt and Jackson Browne.
15:43 - The way the documentary evolved as James increasingly met people being marginalised.
19:12 - Jackson Browne's song the ‘Dreamer’ and what it’s about.
21:25 - The importance of being open with children when they are in vulnerable situations.
24:34 - Our first clip of the film, showing the realities of some illegal immigrants.
26:28 - Where James grew up and the connection he had with Mexican culture at a young age.
30:45 - Why James didn’t include immigration statistics and ICE agents in the film.
32:00 - The detention policies that separate children and their families.
33:22 - What the film is really all about.
34:53 - The values that Mexican Americans hold most dear.
36:11 - How James got into filming and directing.
40:24 - The importance of music in filmmaking and how it can help tell a story.
42:16 - Why this is the golden age of documentaries.
45:11 - James’s favourite Glen Campbell song.
46:21 - The next project James is working on.
49:51 - The lasting message James wants people to take away from this film.
Resources:
Linda and the Mockingbirds
Shout Studios
Linda Ronstadt: The Sound Of My Voice
Los Cenzontles
Alamo Pictures
Connect with James Keach:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 34 - Linda Ronstadt: An Homage to Mexican Americans
James Keach 0:00
Hi, my name is James Keach and I'm the director, producer of Linda and the Mockingbirds.
Speaker 1 0:09
(song playing)
Speaker 2 0:10
In the 80s with the Canciones de Mi Padre in the Mexican community, Linda's music was an enormous source of pride for people.
Speaker 3 0:18
Brought me a lot of hope.
Linda Ronstadt 0:20
Because I was light-skinned and with a German surname, people didn't suspect that I was Mexican, and they'd make some kind of anti-Mexican remark. And they go, "well these greasers coming in here", you know? And I'd always get pretty hot about it.
Speaker 4 0:33
Linda invited our group, Los Cenzontles to join her in going to Mexico. We were going to play music. This is music that comes from years ago, and we're bringing it back alive and it's still alive!
Speaker 5 0:44
The kids growing up in the United States, they're Americans. It's important that they know that we're all immigrants, every one of us, that isn't native.
Linda Ronstadt 0:52
I could see the value of the trip to go down for musical purposes and musical exchange.
Speaker 5 0:56
How'd you get Jackson to come?
Linda Ronstadt 0:58
We asked him.
Speaker 5 1:00
Look, if Linda Ronstadt invites you to go to Mexico, I don't need to know any more than that. Let's go. (music playing)
Speaker 6 1:17
I remember one time, I was smaller than my sister, and they were gone, or my dad was gone. He had been detained. And that was very scary.
Speaker 7 1:34
Oswaldo, what do you want for the country in your future?
Speaker 8 1:37
I want to see white people and Mexicans together. I want to see them talking to each other. (music playing)
Matthew 1:58
That is the trailer for the documentary Linda and the Mockingbirds, and this is Factual America.
Intro 2:06
Factual America is produced by Alamo pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for an international audience. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood, and every week we look at America through the lens of documentary filmmaking by interviewing filmmakers and experts on the American experience. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, to find out where you can see our films and to connect with our team.
Matthew 2:42
Linda Ronstadt singing career spanned five decades. A versatile and talented artist, she has won 10 Grammys, three American Music Awards, two Academy of Country Music Awards and an Emmy. Along the way, she recorded the biggest selling foreign language album of all time. Now retired from singing, Linda continues to give back to the community, as captured by director and producer James Keach in Linda and the Mockingbirds. James joins us to share a side of Linda Ronstadt that few have seen and in the process his film captures the essence of Mexican American culture and the immigrant experience. We caught up with James from his office in Culver City, California. James Keach, welcome to Factual America. James, how are things there with you in, what is it, Culver City, California?
James Keach 3:34
Yeah, things are good. I mean, well, things are Coronavirus good, you know?
Matthew 3:39
Yeah. It's all relative these days, isn't it?
James Keach 3:41
Yeah. It really is. Yeah.
Matthew 3:43
Okay. Well, James, thanks again for coming on to the Factual America podcast. The film, we've just heard a trailer for Linda and the Mockingbirds, which some are calling a follow up to doc that you produced Linda Ronstadt - The Sound of My Voice. I think it's more than just a follow up, I would say. I think Shout! Studios has acquired it. When and where will it be released?
James Keach 4:11
Well, Shout! Studios is going to release it all over, on digital platforms.
Matthew 4:16
Okay. And do we know yet, or is it just going to be, I think it's on October 20th?
James Keach 4:24
October 20. It'll be on Apple and Amazon. You know, all the regular suspects. It'll be wide.
Matthew 4:30
Okay. Well, that's great news. Because this is definitely a film that I would highly recommend. I wanted to personally thank you so much for making this film as South Texan born and bred, I think this is an excellent film. I know it's more focused on sort of California, Arizona, but it did bring back a lot of memories for me. So thank you so much.
James Keach 4:54
Where are you from?
Matthew 4:55
I'm originally from San Antonio.
James Keach 4:57
Oh, really?
Matthew 4:58
Yeah. And I'm probably about the same age, I'm gathering, about one of your characters down there - Eugene Rodriguez, is it? Yeah, so I think it's a very, well, I'll just cut to the chase, I think you capture Mexican American culture quite well in this film. But maybe we can talk a little bit more about that later. For those who haven't seen the film yet, because I think this podcast is going to get released just about the time you go viral, hopefully. Maybe give us a little synopsis of the film?
James Keach 5:36
Well, the film actually is about, Linda Ronstadt, when we were doing Sound of My Voice, said, I was asking, could you do an interview for the film, we need to do an interview in San Francisco. And she said, James, I'd rather not do an interview in San Francisco. I'd rather do an interview in Mexico. I said - in Mexico? She said, yes, I'm going with Eugene Rodriguez and Los Cenzontles, a group that I've been supporting for years, to Banámichi, where my grandfather came from. And we're taking 30 of his students, who are musicians and dancers, and doing an exchange with the folkloric group in Banámichi. And they would like somebody to film them. And that's where I'll do the interview for you. I won't do it in San Francisco, I'll do it in Banámichi. I said, okay. So I thought I was going down there just to film the kids dancing and do an interview with Linda. And it was about this time that the President and immigration was sounding off about murderers and rapists and all the stuff at the border. And I started hearing from Eugene Rodriguez the stories of some of the teachers that were working with his group, that they had come across the border as children illegally, and now they were legal citizens. And I thought, wow, this would make a very, I'd like to interview them, too. And it just started with the first day we shot was on the border, and it grew into a film. I had no idea that this movie was going to happen. And it just, I was so upset with what I was hearing. And in the news about the marginalization that was occurring to these people that I got very involved with their personal stories. And the end result of it is a musical film about Mexican culture and the exchange program. And also, more importantly, it focuses on Linda Ronstadt and the fact that she was a Mexican woman, but most people did not know that and some of the treatment that she had as a young woman. And her being marginalized. And so anyway.
Matthew 7:56
And the rest is history. I mean, I think that's very interesting. Maybe one of the first docs we've discussed that was so organic, if you will, that it didn't start off even as a project really. It just kind of, sort of happened. I mean, I'm about to ask you a question, because we've got an international audience. And for you and me, it probably sounds like, I can't imagine I would be asking you this question. But maybe it's worth setting the stage for maybe some of our younger listeners to say who is Linda Ronstadt?
James Keach 8:26
Well, Linda Ronstadt in the 70s, 80s, 90s in America was one of the biggest musical stars and worldwide stars. And she was known for being a pop singer and singing great, great songs, songs that everybody would recognize. Few people knew that she was actually Mexican. And she, towards the end, or after she'd become a superstar. She decided that she was going to do songs that her father and family had sung when she was a child. And it was called Canciones de Mi Padre. And it's still to this day, is the biggest selling non-English record in the history of the record business. And so, Linda is a superstar here and to both Caucasian people, and you know, everybody knows her in that community. But she crossed over into the Mexican community, and I don't think a lot of them knew that she was a superstar in pop music. And so, this was an opportunity to combine the two musical styles and to reflect on her heritage, you know.
Matthew 9:47
And she does that. And you capture that very well in the film. I like the archival footage you found. Was that from The Today Show with Jane Pauley. Yeah, the way the interview goes at first, it's a little bit uncomfortable. And it kind of reminds me, it takes a bit of a tone at the beginning that's not that dissimilar actually to things I remember from that time period. Even well meaning people, not really understanding what it means to be Mexican or Mexican American.
James Keach 10:17
Right. There was a little bit of edge there. And Linda looked at her and she said, she said, what your...
Matthew 10:24
She says it's Spain or something like that.
James Keach 10:30
And she said, so you're, you're half Mexican? And she said, no, actually, I'm Mexican. It was very, she didn't mean to be dismissive. But it came off that way.
Matthew 10:43
I think, yeah, she goes back. She says, how far back do you have to go until you find Spanish in your family or something like that? You know, and you're like, Oh, come on. I mean, you know. And it's, I won't name names. I've got family members who still refer to people who are Mexican American as Spanish, you know, or something like that. But, I mean, so you've told us how this came about, which is very interesting. So you've also mentioned, I'm going to stumble over this name during the entire podcast, but Los Cenzontles.
James Keach 11:20
Los Cenzontles, it means, in spanish it means the mockingbirds. That's where Linda and the Mockingbirds comes from. It would be kind of a tongue twister to say Linda and Los Cenzontles. So it's Linda and the Mockingbirds. And then, you know, parenthetically, it's Los Cenzontles.
Matthew 11:41
So that's, on its own, is an amazing story, what's happening there?
James Keach 11:49
Well, yeah it is an amazing story about a guy who came from Glendale, Eugene Rodriguez and started playing music when he was a young man and then decided to dedicate his life to teaching music and Mexican culture to kids in Northern California. And he's, I think he's had around 5000 kids go through this program. And it's pretty amazing. And Linda saw him many years ago in San Francisco on the streets. They were just dancing at a, I can't remember exactly the square that they were dancing, and he didn't know who she was. And she said, oh, that's really good. And he said, thank you. And she said, if you need any help, let me know. My name is Linda. He didn't know who she was. And later he found out. Oh, my, that was Linda Ronstadt. So they became very good friends and have been so for many years.
Matthew 12:57
And so she's a benefactor of his project, is that ?
James Keach 13:03
She is a benefactor. She's one of many. I think that he has a lot of support. But Linda has always felt that music and dance are very, very important, you know, and, yeah.
Matthew 13:13
And I think you capture beautifully the, I know there's some ballet folklorico, there's some traditional Mexican music. And it's just these, I think the dresses and everything just make for amazing cinematography, really. So you take a road trip to Sonora, Mexico, basically, and Jackson Browne tags along. And a bunch of Mexican American kids who sing and dance. Is that, you know, what was that like?
James Keach 13:50
It was fantastic. I mean, Jackson Browne, when I, you know, back in the day, he was my, I learned all his songs myself. So, to actually be on the journey with him and at night, we would sit around the dinner table and he played all the songs that I loved and it was a musical. It's kind of like, I mean, my brother, my family and I always used to play music at night, you know. Instead of, we didn't have video games in those days, so there was music. And it was the same spirit. Joe and Pete Ronstadt were on the trip and Eugene and all the musicians, and so music was there all the time. And so it was very special. And Jackson is a very dear friend of Linda's. And, as he said in the film, I said how did she got you on the trip? And he said, well when Linda Ronstadt ask you to go to Mexico, you go. You know, so. They used to tour together.
Matthew 14:48
I think she mentions that at one point, one of them would always be hung over or something the next day or something to that effect.
James Keach 14:55
I doubt it was Linda.
Matthew 14:56
I don't think it was Linda.
James Keach 14:57
I don't think it was Linda, yeah.
Matthew 15:01
And so, you had this amazing journey. And like any journey, you interweave many stories and the more you peel the onion, the more you find some interesting things about the different, particularly the people that are part of this group. So Eugene, who's, as you've mentioned, this guy from Glendale, who started this. You've got Lucina Rodriguez. That was a very compelling story. And did you know that you were going to get that story before you went on the trip?
James Keach 15:40
I knew that, I mean, Eugene had told me. He said, you know, you might want to talk to some of these guys. He told me her story that she had come when she was a child. And he told me Fabiola's story. And, you know, they were very reluctant to talk about it, because I guess it creates some emotional memories that were kind of unpleasant. But at any rate, he told me the story. And I talked to her and I said, it was actually the first day of shooting that we went down to the border. And it was at that time, the news was really, really strident. And maligning of Mexicans. And so that was the first day of shooting. And when you see that wall, that picture tells a 1000 words, you know. And so I didn't know her story, and that's part of, when making documentaries, of course, is that, as you said, peeling the onion. It's like sculpting. You start with a stone, and you just keep peeling it away. And it reveals itself. And that's kind of what the journey was. It started with her. And it just continued with him interviewing for the families and Eugene. And discovering the humanity of these people. And in a way that completely offset the kind of stuff that we were hearing in the news. And of images that were being portrayed. And I think, hopefully, people when they see it, will be touched by the fact that these people are us. There is no difference here. And the fact that somebody is preaching that they're different, that they're this or they're that and they're marginalizing people. And people in Europe, of course, you guys have immigration issues over there, too. And I'm sure there are issues with certain individuals. That's true in any group. But you don't want to marginalize groups just because they're different. They're different races or religions or anything else. It's just...
Matthew 17:51
Yeah, I think you, I mean, it's interesting. Maybe after the break I'll go a little more into that, in terms of how you approached it. But I think it is, I mean I don't think you're calling for uncontrolled immigration or anything like that. It's just for people to be treated humanely and stop being vilified.
James Keach 18:17
Exactly. I mean, you know, we need to have, we need to have structure. We need to know who, when and where people are coming into the country, and we need to treat them humanely. Our country is built, everybody's an immigrant, really, in the United States, you know. And we all bleed the same way, put our pants on the same way, you know. And the fact that racism is being perpetuated by, it is very unfortunate. And I don't think the world in the future is going to be able to tolerate it too well, because it's going to cause a lot of problems.
Matthew 18:59
It causes. As someone who's got, you have children as well, but as someone who's got children, I'm noticing that I don't think they're gonna tolerate it either. You know, the future generations just don't see, don't understand this.
James Keach 19:12
Well, that's because, well, fortunately, you and me are teaching them that that's not acceptable. You know, it's not accepted. We don't behave that way. It's not like do as I say. We do that, we behave that way. We don't, you know, we don't allow that.
Matthew 19:35
I just wanted to, just a thought occurred to me. You were talking, well, we were talking about these stories. And then, as part of this, going back to Jackson Browne, have this song, is that, Dreamer. Is that an original song that's, he says he just played it at concerts, but I hadn't heard it before. Is that, it's an interesting, it's a beautiful song.
James Keach 20:00
He wrote the song with Eugene about Lucina and her journey. The song is about the girl that we interviewed at the border, one of the teachers who came across as a child to be with her father, who was in the United States, with her mother and her brother. And it's her song, it's about her and her journey.
Matthew 20:24
Well, you know what, and we can always edit this out. I'm gonna hope that maybe we can, after we get off this podcast, I'll be back in touch with the people at Shout! and maybe we can listen to a little clip of that. I think that would be very nice. But in terms of, you know, people watch the film, I'm not gonna tell you what Lucina says about her experience. It's very compelling. One thing I was going to ask you, and I'll cut to it now is, you go straight, you go straight to the children, and ask them questions, which I found very interesting. Was that intentional? I mean, you have these different families, and obviously, their children are in as part of the group, and are on this trip. And then you ask them how they feel?
James Keach 21:16
Yes, I do ask the children how they feel. Because, you know, again, we don't want to marginalize another group called kids. You know, kids, they're generally very honest. And they say what they feel if they trust you. And I've always taught my kids, I said, what's going on, man? And they'll answer it. And the kids in this case, when they felt that the safety of their parents, when they're there surrounded by their parents, and their parents were talking and they felt it was safe. And they could say what they really felt and it was very, very powerful, what they said.
Matthew 21:58
I agree, I mean, very mature. I think it was well done later, I think one of the parents said, look, we have to have these conversations with our children, even if they're only five years old. It's just the reality of the situation. So they seem to be well, extremely mature.
James Keach 22:17
Yes. It's kind of like the thing that, in this country, you know, the Black Lives Matter movement is going on right now. When a lot of the African Americans are interviewed, even guys that are sports stars, or stars of music, when they're away from the stage, and they're driving down the street, they have been taught by their parents that they better be, you know, keep their hands up. And they better be very polite, because bad things can happen to them. And so in this case, the kids were taught by their parents that these things could happen. And the boy is talking about how his father was taken away from him. When he was a little boy, and it scared him to death, you know. And that's what the mother was referring to, we need to have these conversations so that they understand what can happen here, you know. I mean, you have, it's unfortunate. It's a frightening, frightening thing. They have the ICE agents, you know, you never know, they can pick up the wrong people. They've done it many times. And again, I'm not for open borders, and I'm not trying to diminish the presence of people doing their jobs, but it's a pretty scary thing that, you know, white people don't have that problem. They just don't, you know. I'm not worried that somebody is gonna come in my house and say, hey, man, you got to go home. Well, I am home. And, it's just, it's unfortunate.
Matthew 23:51
I think that's, it's a bit early, but let's go to a break. And if we're lucky, maybe also people, our listeners will be able to hear a little bit of some of the music, some of this amazing music that's in this film Linda and the Mockingbirds. So let's take a break now.
Factual America midroll 24:13
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Linda Ronstadt 24:34
Maybe it's genetic memory, but I feel very at home when I go to Mexico. I hope that Mexicans could feel like they have more of an understanding of who they are, why they're important, why they should never be rendered invisible or without their dignity.
Speaker 1 24:48
This is where a lot of deportees walk along this wall here.
Speaker 2 24:53
I was born and raised in Mexico. My dad was in the United States, so he wanted the rest of the family to join him. We had to cross the border illegally.
Speaker 3 25:11
(music playing)
Speaker 4 25:26
At the end of my show, I do a song called I'm a patriot. And when I say "and I ain't no white supremacist" and the place just roars. Because who would be a white supremacist in this country? This country is not white. We did not found it to be white.
Matthew 25:58
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm with James Keach, director and producer of Linda and the Mockingbirds. "Los Cenzontles both honors and upends traditional Mexican music, tapping deep roots as it flowers into something completely new, and distinctly American." That is from the New York Times. James, had you had much interaction with Mexican or Mexican American culture before you did this film?
James Keach 26:29
Yes, I mean, I grew up, my first 10 years of my life in South Texas.
Matthew 26:35
Did you? Where were you in South Texas?
James Keach 26:37
Well, you know where Taft Texas is?
Matthew 26:40
Taft? No.
James Keach 26:40
No. Do you know where Sinton, Texas is?
Matthew 26:43
Sinton, yeah. I mean...
James Keach 26:46
Do you know where Corpus is?
Matthew 26:47
I know where Corpus is and I know you're getting close, you're getting towards, the King Ranch is sort of down that direction.
James Keach 26:54
Right. Well, Taft was a town of about 2500 people in between Sinton and Corpus. So you know, my grandmother lived there. And I was there. My dad was doing a television show called Tales of the Texas Rangers, for all that time, so I was there with my grandmother. And Salome and his family were some of her best friends. And we used to have Mexican food all the time. And he was there all the time. And we were all very close. So yes, you know, but at the same time, Salome lived on one side of town. And black people lived on another side of town, and white people lived in the middle. And it was always something that really bothered me. I didn't quite understand why we all weren't together. And so, but I was very close to the children and his family and played sports together. But it was segregated, unfortunately. And it's always bothered me. You know, I would say, if they can make, if these folks could make dinner, why can't they sit down to dinner table with us? It just wasn't done at that time, back in those days.
Matthew 28:07
And as a fellow south texan, and I can add, maybe the generation, I don't know, we're not separated by that many years, but I maybe the next generation, and yes, maybe things weren't officially segregated. But you still had, north side of San Antonio was white, east side was where the black community was, and west and south side were where the Hispanic community. And it was, you know, I'm not proud of things that I've heard, you know, people I think were starting to celebrate the culture more. Even then, I mean, I'm aware of things that were shouted out of school bus windows to construction sites and things like that. It just recoil in horror at, you know. So it's kind of been one of these, it's another, it's probably another podcast, Texas and South Texas's relationship with it's Mexican roots.
James Keach 29:07
I think that's true, you know. I mean, it wasn't so long ago that the Civil War took place. I mean, it seems, you're in Europe. I mean, you go to Europe, and you look around to 200 years, it's nothing. So the domestication that occurred in families, you know, societal domestication was, you know, it wasn't good. And hopefully in our lifetime, in our children's lifetime, you know, equality will happen. But like I said, it always bothered me, it's bothered me my whole life. And I've tried very hard to make movies that celebrate the humanity of everybody.
Matthew 29:52
Yeah, I think very much, I think that's what your film does. I think that's the best way to put it. It's, if nothing else, it's a celebration of humanity. One thing we were already talking about, it's almost kind of the elephant in the room. But I mean, you've talked about ICE agents and things. But there's a backdrop that's interesting. Because when I saw the press around this and the trailer, you know, you couldn't blame maybe someone thinking this might be a bit of a hard hitting polemic. But it's anything but. There's this backdrop that, okay, you go by the wall and everything, but it's not like you are regaling us with loads of statistics about family detentions, and zero tolerance policies. Was that intentional on your part?
James Keach 30:45
Yes, it was. It was very intentional. I don't want to give them, I don't want to give that any more power. I don't want to create more conversation around the disastrous immigration policies that have been employed, you know, and the behavior. Like I said, I'm for immigration, you know, laws, but I don't want to give, I don't want to give that ugliness anymore juice. There's no, I don't want to reinforce it. Nor do I want to give them any more screen time. They've had enough. It's enough of that.
Matthew 31:22
Well, I think that's a very good point. I think it's made in the movie when, we've already referred to that song Dreamer, with Jackson Browne had some lyrics in his head that have been rolling around for 30 years or something. And Eugene, kind of helped him flip it around, instead of talking about what we've, you know, these individuals, why not focus on someone like Lucina, which is what I think makes that such a compelling song. I guess for our listeners, just so, I mean, just so we can set the stage a little bit. I mean, what we are talking about is, obviously, policy was implemented around 2016-17. That resulted in those being detained at the border. And then families, it wasn't just by accident, it was a concerted policy that families would be separated, and children were removed from their parents never to possibly see them again, in some horrible conditions. I mean, this has been a crazy year. We don't really hear too much about it anymore. Are you aware of is it still going on?
James Keach 32:40
Yes. It's definitely still going on. In fact, it's getting, it's very intense right now. But because of the political climate in our country, you know, it's not getting the press. The Coronavirus is getting to the press. You know, it's kind of like, you know, every day there's something new, there's something crazier going on, and that gets the press and the other thing is kind of pushed aside, you know. And that's unfortunate. But that's the reality of our world right now.
Matthew 33:14
So if we can, I mean, so what is this film really all about in your mind?
James Keach 33:22
It's a celebration of life. Celebration of everybody, you know, of the commonality of our journeys on this Earth. And that, that we must, you know, you look at people, the way we look at our children, we look at other people, and we're not, we're not different. We might look different, but we're really not. And it's about values. It's a movie about values, and it's hopefully it's uplifting. As you said, we have enough darkness every day in the news. And the songs, the music tells the dark stories, which is an interesting way to do it. The song speaks of the darkness, you know. And yet the songs are still celebratory because, again, like Shakespeare said, music is the fruit of love. So that's what we tried to do.
Matthew 34:20
I mean, I think, if I would add to that, I think it captures well the immigrant experience, what it means to be American. I mean, one thing I was going to ask you is what struck you most when you were interviewing and filming these people? You asked them a lot of questions about values, which I thought was interesting. In my pigeon Spanish, I could understand what they were saying before it got translated, but it was amazing how often they said the same two or three words.
James Keach 34:52
Respect was the one they said over and over. We respect, we respect each other and other people and we work hard.
Matthew 35:00
Work hard.
James Keach 35:01
We work hard, you know, and..
Matthew 35:04
And family.
James Keach 35:05
Yeah. And family. Yeah. Those are the things. And, you know, those are all the things, those are the values that we all should have and many of us do have I think, you know.
Matthew 35:20
Well, again, and I just, just to say thank you so much for making the film. I think it's, for those who are not familiar, it's easy for me to forget that most people aren't familiar with Mexican or Mexican American culture, or haven't had any interaction with it. I think it's, you know, it's a great introduction to that culture, if you will. I mean, if you don't mind, Ithought we might, because we'll get back to the film towards the end. I just got some questions, to take advantage of the fact that I've got you here, James. I mean, you come from relatively famous family of actors, but why'd you move to, you know, what was the move about moving into producing and directing? I mean, I know that's been a while ago, but what led you in that direction?
James Keach 36:11
Well, when I was at the Yale drama school many years ago, and my brother was there as he was one of my teachers, believe it or not.
Matthew 36:21
Oh, God.
James Keach 36:22
Yeah. And he would always ask me to, he was also in the professional company there. And, so he would have me come to the theater and watch him do his rehearsals. And then he'd say, what do you think? What do you think? And I started, and he said, you'd be a great director, you know. And I said, well, I really liked directing. He also was encouraging me to be an actor, you know. So we did, Stacy and I did several movies together, as actors. And then, one time, he was actually directing this little short film, and I went in and I was watching them edit. And I thought, man, this is so cool. This is so cool, you know, putting stories together in the cinema and photography. And I think I was in my early 20s, maybe not even 20. And I always wanted to do it. And so they came a point where, my friends who were executives, I've had a pretty good career as an actor. And they said, you better get going with this directing thing if you're going to do it. Because you know, time you don't have so much to throw it. At about 38 years old, I started directing. And I've done a lot of directing since.
Matthew 37:34
Yeah, I won't go through the filmography. But you've done a lot of, mostly it's narrative, but what has drawn you to documentaries, because you've done few of those.
James Keach 37:45
Yeah, I did a documentary, years ago for the Red Cross. That was the first one I did. And it was about vaccinating kids in Africa. You know, they said, would you go over and do this? And it was quite an experience to see, to be a part of a million kids getting vaccinated for the measles. And so, that was an interesting experience. And then I made a movie, I produced a movie called Walk the Line. And it was about Johnny Cash. And that was the first musical film that I did. And, right after that, my son Johnny, was recording with a guy named Julian Raman, who also did the score for los cenzoles. And Johnny was 13 at the time. And Julian was working. He was at Warner Brothers, and he was working with Johnny on music. Johnny is a very talented kid, and Julian was producing Glen Campbell's records. And he said, James, would you do a show about Glen Campbell? I said, I don't think I want to do another narrative musical. We just did that. He said, No, Glenn's got Alzheimer's. And then I thought I really don't want to do that, that sounds... I was scared to even say the word Alzheimer's. And then Julian said, just meet him, okay? And so, Glenn was brought over to the house with his wife Kim and he was so funny and he said, Kim said Glenn talk to James about your Alzheimers and Glenn goes I've got no Alzheimers, I got part timers. And Glenn says when a man find is a good woman, he finds him a good thing, I found me a good thing and he points at Kim. And I could just tell this guy was, he loved his wife and he was funny. So, they said, you know, it's only going to be a five weeks tour, you know. Turned out to be a 171 shows, two and a half years of filming. And that led me to, that film was very successful. And then that started me on making documentaries and people started calling, saying would you do this, would you do that? And here we are.
Matthew 40:01
And so that's how you got into music in particular, because it's, like you said, you had Johnny Cash, Glen Campbell, Linda Ronstadt. I think you're even executive producer on a David Crosby doc. So, I mean, what is, is there something that about music, particularly, that has really caught your attention?
James Keach 40:21
I think the storytelling, you know, music is in and of itself, the storytelling in songs and in music, it's a great way to tell a story without just sitting there talking about it. And it's not, it's not actors. But I like making, because of my narrative background, as a filmmaker, I like doing documentaries with characters, that are character driven. As opposed to archival documentary, and you know, and documentaries about dead people, I like doing documentaries about living people. But you know, anyway. You know, in documentaries, you learn about yourself. That's the thing, when you get to talk to somebody, it's like your job too. I'm sure that when you interview people, you start learning about, you know, things in yourself that you didn't know, that you identify with that person. And it makes for an interesting conversation. And that's kind of what making a documentary is, certainly, in terms of the interview process. You learn things about them. And hopefully, you're learning something about yourself, and you can inform the audience of things that you are curious about. And hopefully they were to, and they go away with something that they didn't have before they started watching it.
Matthew 40:27
And I guess you learn that you have that knack for asking or being curious about things that other people are going to be curious about as well. Otherwise, you're making something that no one's gonna end up seeing.
James Keach 41:55
Right. I'm a very curious guy. Somebody once said, in your choice lies your talent.
Matthew 42:05
It's good. Do you think, you say you use your narrative background. People are calling this the golden age of documentaries. Do you agree with that?
James Keach 42:14
Yeah, I think so. I think, again, it's back to learning about other human beings experience, true experiences and how they overcame their obstacles. Paddy Chayefsky, a great writer used to say, Who is your hero? What does he or she want? And what's preventing them from getting it? That's a good formula for narrative films. And it's a great formula for documentaries, you know. And, even when you're making, you know, negative documentaries about people that are bad people, you still want to know who they are, and what did they want, and what was, you know, they decided to murder somebody, and what was preventing them from getting it, that good cop? I think the formula works on all levels. But I think the golden age of documentaries is because there's so many, because of the internet, because of social media, because we know there's so many interactions with other people. And they, we realize that there's such a difference between the human experience. There's so many different human experiences that are different than ours, that we're curious about. And now that we have the ability to film, you know, here we are talking, you're in Leeds, and I'm in Culver City, and we're doing a zoom call. We can now learn about each other in a way that we couldn't do it before. And those of us that are curious, tune in to those things.
Matthew 43:42
And I think what's amazing, you know, for all of us who might have thought, well, all the stories have been told, how increasingly we're discovering that actually, we just haven't been paying very close attention. And there's so many stories that haven't been told. And I think this Linda Ronstadt one is an interesting one, you know. And even to this day, as you said, how many people know that she's got these Mexican roots?
James Keach 44:06
Right, exactly.
Matthew 44:08
You know, and that was right in front of our eyes. It was on TV, it's documented. I mean, she put the album out, you know. I mean, some of us, I remember that album, that was huge. I was still in South Texas back in San Antonio. And that was, that was huge in the Mexican American community. But, you know, and I see this with even the younger documentary filmmakers, they're just, they're looking. I mean, every week, I'm blessed, I will say that I get to, part of my job is to watch great documentaries and talk to people about them, because, you know...
James Keach 44:50
Social relevant films, you know, that's, being documentary people, a lot of that is, it's social consciousness, you know. And I think that that's where a lot of the films are being made now, you know.
Matthew 45:04
Yeah. So, what is your favorite Glen Campbell song?
James Keach 45:12
Well, it's not a very famous one. It's the Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
Matthew 45:16
I'm gonna have to look that one up.
James Keach 45:18
Jimmy Webb wrote it. It's just, I think it's special to me because when we were filming it, I would always shoot, when I was on the stage with Glenn, shooting close ups. And whenever he would sing the song, it would just, it would get me. I mean, I love all of his classic songs, of course, but for some reason that one emotionally, I think it was just the connection that he and I had when we were filming that.
Matthew 45:48
I mean, again, I actually haven't seen that doc. I'm definitely gonna go find it and watch it because he's quite an interesting individual. He's not who a lot of people probably think he is or was, unfortunately.
James Keach 46:02
You'll like it. I mean, it won three Grammys and nominated for Academy Award. It's pretty good.
Matthew 46:08
Yeah. You think?
James Keach 46:10
You think?
Matthew 46:13
So what is, for you, what's next in terms of projects?
James Keach 46:19
Well, we're working on Glen Campbell, the narrative film, like Walk The Line. We're, we're casting that now. I'm working on, I've been asked to do Greg Allman.
Matthew 46:33
Really?
James Keach 46:34
Yes. And so we're working on that. And a band called Alabama, you know, this. And so there's some really cool stories out there about those guys. And working on several narrative films, and this might sound, you know, I don't know if it'll be interesting to you, but it is to me, but doing a series on pain.
Matthew 47:03
Pain?
James Keach 47:04
Pain, Mhmm. Every kind of pain that you can imagine, you know. And the journey of that we all go through from the time we're born, coming out screaming to the end. So it's adolescent pain, it's old age, it's the pain of opiates and dealing with it. It's emotional pain. It's PTSD. It's the journey that we all go through. But giving people that experiential thing of how people get through it, how they deal with it. And having compassion and empathy for those people suffering from it. So, there's a whole science thing that I like to get to. I just think it's an interesting area.
Matthew 47:40
And what's driving this, you just, not that you currently are in a lot of pain?
James Keach 47:43
No.
Matthew 47:48
But, that's very interesting, because it's one of these, it's a topic people don't want to talk about really.
James Keach 47:55
Correct. But I think that people would be very interested to know about it.
Matthew 47:59
Yeah.
James Keach 48:00
If you do it in a way that is character driven, that is about people, you know. It's like, if you look at Winston Churchill, let's say and the pain that he was in, or Franklin Roosevelt and how he dealt with it, then, you know, you can use, and normal people, regular everyday people or sports heroes or soldiers, or, you know. It's a different kind of storytelling, but, you know, it's another documentary area that, you know, it's a very specific subject. It might not be, it's not a music star, but it's certainly a big word. It's certainly a big subject, you know.
Matthew 48:41
And given what you said earlier, you don't want to make films about dead people. I mean, you're gonna have living people as...? Have you sketched it out already? Do you know how the series is going to...
James Keach 48:52
Kind of, we're working on it right now. I'm not going to talk to cadavers, if that's what you mean..
Matthew 48:57
Well, they don't talk back.
James Keach 48:59
No, they don't. And hopefully, they're not in pain.
Matthew 49:06
Well, we'll be on the lookout for that. That sounds, that sounds amazing. Well, I was just looking up the Allman Brothers the other day. You can't say I'm sure but trying to cast Glen Campbell, that's gonna be an interesting one. But I'm sure you have someone in mind, that you're talking to.
James Keach 49:25
We have a few people in mind. Yeah.
Matthew 49:27
Okay. It's hard to believe I think we're coming, sort of, to the end of our time together. But let's bring it back to Linda and the Mockingbirds. What would be, what is the lasting message you want people to take away from this film when they finally do see it?
James Keach 49:51
I think the lasting message is to carry the message of the film. Which is to, you know, promote equality, to promote compassion, to promote empathy and to celebrate the music and culture of others, as well, and your own culture.
Matthew 50:13
Yes. And speaking of that, not my own culture necessarily, but in terms of Los Cenzontles. How can we listen to more of their fantastic music, is there any?
James Keach 50:27
Go to their website - Los Cenzontles, https://www.loscenzontles.com/
Matthew 50:30
Excellent. Well, you heard it here. I just want to thank you, James, for coming on to the podcast. It's been an honor to meet you and to talk about this great, perfect 60 minutes of a doc, I would say. And just to remind our listeners, we've been talking with James Keach, director and producer of Linda and the Mockingbirds. Also want to give a shout out to This Is Distorted studio in Leeds, England. Please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. And this is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 51:15
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, television and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk