The Rise and Fall of America's Most Corrupt Police Squad
The Gun Trace Task Force (GTTF) was meant to help the Baltimore Police Department fight violent crime. Instead, its officers terrorised innocent civilians, and it was labeled as one of the most corrupt police departments in the US. In 2017, a criminal investigation resulted in the successful prosecution of the officers, and they were convicted of extortion, fraud, racketeering, and robbery.
In I Got A Monster, director Kevin Abrams tells the story of what happened, and how a crusading defence attorney named Ivan Bates helped bring the corrupt police officers to justice. In the documentary, Kevin also speaks to the GTTF’s victims, giving a voice to people too often denied one.
Kevin tells host Matthew Sherwood about the GTTF’s Jekyll and Hyde leader. Wayne Jenkins was a tough but charismatic cop. Away from the spotlight, however, he was also utterly corrupt. They explore the question of how so many officers, who were also the subject of internal police investigations, managed to end up in the same unit. Was it a coincidence or a conspiracy?
Kevin and Matthew discuss the broader issue of police corruption in the US, how it has been allowed to continue, and what has happened to the Baltimore Police Department since 2017, Kevin also reflects on his experience of making I Got A Monster, which was completed thanks to the goodwill and help of a diverse range of people, including the FBI, local journalists, and Baltimoreons.
”... documentary has a great ability to humanise things, and to make things feel real [so] that people can get a greater understanding emotionally of what people are dealing with... police corruption and the victims of it.” – Kevin Abrams
Time Stamps
02:37 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s film and guest
04:08 – Kevin Abrams explains what I Got a Monster is about
04:43 – Wayne Jenkins, ringleader of the Gun Trace Task Force
06:10 – Exploring the question of how so many corrupt officers were put in the same unit
07:57 – The wider issue of police corruption in the USA and why it keeps happening
12:35 – How Kevin Abrams got involved with I Got A Monster
14:41 – Kevin discusses Norman Lear’s involvement in the film as a producer
15:39 – Kevin talks about his love for Baltimore and the city’s difficult history
17:25 – Making I Got A Monster at the same time as other, similar, productions
20:05 – Discussing working with the victims of the Gun Trace Task Force
21:52 – The challenge of making a ‘bootstrap’ documentary
23:22 – Getting the FBI on board in the making of the film
24:20 – Exploring whether Baltimore is setting a new standard for policing
26:02 – How Kevin avoided making the film ‘real estate misery porn’
27:35 – Kevin on what he would like I Got A Monster’s legacy to be
29:06 – Looking at the repercussions of falling victim to police corruption
30:39 – Kevin looks ahead to his next project
32:01 – Discussing the Factual America podcast
Resources:
I Got A Monster - top 10 most corrupt police departments in America
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Kevin Abrams:
More from Factual America:
Waco: The Tragedy that Still Haunts America
The Murder Victim Who Lived: The Case of Caril Ann Fugate
How Bernie Madoff Became the Monster of Wall Street
Top Documentaries On HBO Max Right Now
Interesting Reading from Factual America:
7 New Netflix Biopics to Look out for in 2023
The 10 Best Cult Documentaries
25 Conspiracy Documentaries You Should Watch
Closed For Storm: The Abandoned Six Flags Theme Park
11 Interesting Documentaries About Theme Parks
Film Buyer vs Distributor
15 Intense Documentaries About Scams and Fraud
How to Pitch a Documentary to Netflix Buyers
10 Funniest Documentaries Ever Made
24 Best Documentaries about America
How to Pitch a Documentary to Amazon
How to Pitch a Documentary to HBO
How to Pitch a Documentary to Disney+
17 Harrowing Documentaries About Drugs
How to Pitch a Documentary to Paramount+
Transcript for Factual America Episode 130: The Rise and Fall of America's Most Corrupt Police Squad
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:37)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. I Got A Monster is the explosive story of America's most corrupt police unit, the Gun Trace Task Force, which terrorized the city of Baltimore. Told largely through the experiences of the defense attorney who helped bring to light the systemic corruption in Baltimore's Police Department, the film rightly puts the focus on the Gun Trace Task Force many victims. Join us as we talk with Kevin Abrams, producer, editor, writer and director of I've Got A Monster about how he and others eventually got this bootstrap project to the big screen. Stay tuned. Kevin Abrams, welcome to Factual America, how are things with you?
Kevin Abrams 00:47
Doing well, doing well.
Matthew Sherwood 00:49
Yes. So, well, welcome to the show. For our listeners and viewers we're talking about I Got A Monster. Is it on Amazon and Apple TV, is that right? Is that where we can...?
Kevin Abrams 01:01
Correct, yeah, and we're working on doing an additional theatrical release in New York and LA, probably early summer.
Matthew Sherwood 01:07
Okay. Well, welcome again. It's great to have you on. And maybe - I understand you actually listen, or listened to a few episodes, so, I think you know how we get started here. Maybe you can tell our listeners, what is I Got A Monster all about.
Kevin Abrams 01:27 (04:08)
I Got A Monster is a feature documentary that focuses on the victims of the Baltimore Gun Trace Task Force, which was an elite police unit that got convicted of egregious examples of corruption. And are now doing a combined total of over 100 years of time for their acts. So, we met all the victims and sort of deconstructed what led to the fall of the task force and hopefully a little bit of the justice for the people involved on the other side.
Matthew Sherwood 01:59 (04:43)
Well, indeed, and - I mean, if there's a lot of people involved in this, but there was this fella named Wayne Jenkins, who's the ringleader.
Kevin Abrams 02:09
Yes.
Matthew Sherwood 02:11
Yes, who terrorized Baltimore for many years. But he's an int - I mean, forgive me, I must say, you know, you start - you approached - yet another doc about corrupt cops or these sorts of issues, but he takes the cake, doesn't he. He's quite...
Kevin Abrams 02:30
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 02:31
... it's quite amazing what he pulled off, or tried to pull off.
Kevin Abrams 02:35
Yeah. I mean, the guy from the outside is an incredibly charismatic, effective alpha dog of a police officer. Lifting up the hood, you see a completely different personality that was able to accomplish all those things with a lot of deception, really bad moral decision making, and really abusing a system that he saw the holes in to benefit himself and the people around him. You know, they did a fictional version of the show with David Simon, and he was played by Jon Bernthal, who's an unbelievably charismatic actor. And I think in that casting, you get a sense of what type of personality Wayne Jenkins is, and how using that charisma, and what he was able to do was - I mean, incredibly adept at taking advantage of the opportunities he's had.
Matthew Sherwood 03:24
But he didn't do it alone.
Kevin Abrams 03:26
No, nobody does. Nobody does.
Matthew Sherwood 03:28 (06:10)
So, you know, it's this Gun Trace Task Force that he ended up, but - I mean, how did this happen, because they, you know, all the people as your film points out, they all had noted internal - multiple internal affairs investigations going on. It was like a perfect storm. Like, if someone went out of their way - I think you even say, if - or someone, one of your - one of the people in the film says, if you were conspiratorial at all, you would wonder about how did all these guys end up on the same team?
Kevin Abrams 04:02
And we did. And we explored it. And basically, the thesis we came up with is that they all shared a common habit of being aggressive cops, right. That was something they were known for. If you got put on a unit, it was somebody who was basically an all-star of some sort. They were aggressive. They were willing to go out, put themselves on the front line, throw themselves into dangerous situations to make the arrest, to get the drugs, to get the weapons; all the stuff that Baltimore has been really historically worried about, as far as stuff that is dangerous in their city. So, when they amassed it was just this really bizarre amalgamation. We always said it was, like, you know, a superhero movie where the crew finally comes together. And in this case, all the crew are these corrupt cops, and you just can't imagine that people would be able to be moving in this way. But that's part of what the story and the film discusses, is that the system that allows the protection of cops with these types of records, and how it favors protecting them over the transparency needed to really have a system of integrity that accounts for their bad behavior, and is able to show patterns of this bad behavior over time. So, accountability can happen in the correct way.
Matthew Sherwood 05:15 (07:57)
And do you think - is this just - is this just a Baltimore story? Or is it...
Kevin Abrams 05:20
Sadly not.
Matthew Sherwood 05:21
Yeah, it just happens to take place - I mean, I lived in Washington DC for a while, went to Baltimore...
Kevin Abrams 05:27
So, you know... I mean, there's been stories there, too. Recently, Memphis, with the SCORPION unit, there has been examples of them abusing their power. Unfortunately, it's one of the greater conversations that we're having in the United States in total, which is the lines of proper policing, and how to have accountability and letting them do their job effectively, while at the main time - same time maintaining the rights of the citizens, which obviously, in this case, got abused and violated greatly.
Matthew Sherwood 05:54
Yeah, and how do you - I mean, subject of another doc, I think, but I mean - how do we keep finding ourselves in this situation?
Kevin Abrams 06:02
Well, I think it's just very lazy politicking, to be quite honest. Institutional change of some nature has to happen for this type of behavior not to be ongoing. And we'll get these red flags, people will come in, they'll do assessments, you know, right now, Baltimore is under something called a Consent Decree, which is a federally mandated evaluation of what's going on in their police department. So, people are coming in, they're assessing, they're pointing out the problems, but it's the follow-up, and the follow-through that's never really addressed. And the staying power of actually finding a transition to a more effective way that accounts for all these discoveries. I mean, that's going to take fundamental, you know, change from the bottom, into an institution that's been around for hundreds of years.
Matthew Sherwood 06:48
Right.
Kevin Abrams 06:49
Baltimore is this really weird litmus test where it always seems to be slightly ahead of what's going on crime wise. So, whenever I hear stories about that, I'm like, Oh my God, that's gonna ripple someplace else. And like I discussed earlier, you've seen stuff in Memphis, there was an egregious, terrible case of police corruption in Los Angeles, with cops actually being accused of being part of underground gangs, and going out and abusing people as part of their entry into these gangs. So, this power dynamic is really dangerous, and nobody's actually doing the institutional change to alleviate it, and to make it not happen anymore.
Matthew Sherwood 07:24
And I guess there's an element there for some of us raised to always be deferential to cops. And, you know, and I think your film really raises the point as well, like, there was never any questioning by many of the prosecutors, or anyone in the system.
Kevin Abrams 07:43
Yeah, that's a huge thing that Ivan Bates, who's I guess our sort of protagonist in the film, he's this crusading lawyer, who now recently got elected to be State's Attorney in Baltimore. So, he actually has an interesting sort of dovetail of what's going on with his character arc and where he is professionally right now. But he points out - he's like, you know, part of the problem is the system, is that cops are expected to be telling the truth, and the people that they have arrested are expected to be lying. What happened in our case is that eventually, the Federal Government went in and the attorneys that were prosecuting the case interviewed all the people that were arrested, a lot of them had already previous records for abuses of somehow gun possession, drug dealing, whatever it went on being, and they all confirmed that all the cops are lying, and all these people were telling the truth. And that's one of the major things that we try to focus on in the film was allowing for that version of the story to come out. And when we went into edit, and we constructed what this film eventually became, was always under the pretense of this being a platform for the victims to finally tell their true story. And let that be what leads the narrative as opposed to what the cops were pretending to be true.
Matthew Sherwood 08:53
I think - actually, let's give our listeners a quick early break. We'll be right back with Kevin Abrams, the producer, editor, writer and director - what didn't you do on this film?
Kevin Abrams 09:05
Oh man. Bootstraps! We did a lot! All of us! Multiple hats.
Matthew Sherwood 09:10
I Got A Monster showing currently on Amazon and Apple TV Plus, and also, hopefully another theatrical release here soon.
Factual America Midroll 09:20
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 09:40
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Kevin Abrams, the producer and director of I Got A Monster. Kevin, how'd you become involved with this film?
Kevin Abrams 09:51 (12:35)
So, Baynard Woods who's featured in the documentary - he's one of the reporters that we interview - he and I were friends for a couple of years at this point. And he and his partner were putting together - Brandon Soderberg, who's another local reporter - a book proposal. And as they were developing the book proposal, they reached out to me - we've developed stuff in the past together in the fiction space - and he's, like, listen, I think we have a series or a film or something here. And he sent me the materials. I immediately agreed. I was amazed at what they were able to uncover. They were following these cops who at this point, probably 7, 8, 9 years telling their stories in local papers. So, they had amassed a huge amount of information about what was going on. And through our agency, we're able to help them set up their book. And then we began the process of making the doc which was a very backwards process. In our business, we usually do this thing where we put together a sizzle and a deck, and we try to sell it to streamers or networks and stuff, went through that lovely process. We had some really impressive EPs at the time, and set it up at a streamer. And then eventually, in the last hour, as we're literally going to contract, they had a regime change. And our project was one of the few projects that got, unfortunately, killed. But at this time, we amassed so much content because we kept shooting the sizzle, because we never knew if we're gonna get back in touch with some of the people, they were getting a little squirrely about feeling comfortable with what was going on and their protection. So, we just - any time I had the opportunity, I was like, let's just put something in the can. And when that happened, we had probably 100 or 200 hours' worth of content. We went back to one of our executive producers and partners, and we're like, listen, we think there's a feature here, would you help us, you know, fund it, so we can just make the doc, and they were awesome. And they said yeah, we believe in this project, and go ahead and take the next six, seven months to put it together.
Matthew Sherwood 11:55
Okay. Is that - is one of those Norman Lear?
Kevin Abrams 11:59 (14:41)
He came on late in the process. He - a phenomenal add. We had another project we're - did with him, once again, in the fiction space - and his business partner, this guy, Brent Miller, is really close friends with my business partner, they've known each other through politics and stuff. And we showed them a rough cut of the film. And they really responded to that. And then they came on as executive producers and have been instrumental in getting the film out there and really helping elevate what was as we discussed earlier, very bootstrappy production where we all wore multiple hats. I mean, you know, my producers, God bless them, all were assistant editors and graphics people and dealing with, you know, late night avid issues. As all of these docs sort of deal with; so, but when they came on, it really gave us the opportunity needed to bring it to a bigger platform.
Matthew Sherwood 12:54 (15:39)
Excellent. I mean, you're talking about - so, do you have Baltimore roots, or...?
Kevin Abrams 13:00
I don't, but I love the city. I have fallen madly in love with it. And we're developing two other projects focused there. And I think the people are incredible. I think the culture is incredible. And the history of it's amazing, because it was this strange place that was north and south during the Civil War.
Matthew Sherwood 13:18
Yeah.
Kevin Abrams 13:19
... and, you know, very close to the Mason-Dixon Line, and it has the personalities of both sides. I mean, if you go there, there's still leftover cannons pointing north, that were relics from what was happening in the Civil War. And with that, unfortunately, comes a long history of institutional racism, problematic policing. And as we discover through the doc, a lot of those fundamental institutional elements still are carrying over into present day and what's contributing to this gross, you know, misappropriation of power within the police department, and some of the racial issues that are the result of displacement and, or control with what's going on in the city.
Matthew Sherwood 13:58
Yeah, no, I'll give a big thumbs up to Baltimore as well. I have spent a few...
Kevin Abrams 14:04
Well, you're a DC guy, so, you're close...
Matthew Sherwood 14:07
Well, yeah, back in the day, and it was the only place you could find Major League Baseball back then. So, that was one reason. But, you know, a few nights in Fells Point and that kind of...
Kevin Abrams 14:18
I've done it myself.
Matthew Sherwood 14:19
Yeah, there you go. You know, but the - there's also, I mean, Baltimore's been there; it's, you know, my goodness it's, you know, we've had a lot of shows about Baltimore...
Kevin Abrams 14:35
Yeah, The Wire, Homicide, all those...
Matthew Sherwood 14:37 (17:25)
... all those, but - and then we, you know, obviously it's about this very - this story, this, you know; so, with We Own This City, and we've got the, as you've already alluded to, the semi-fictional story, fictionalized; but, were you - was that - I mean, it sounds like you got into this process way early on, you know, you weren't - were you aware of this other stuff going on, in terms of covering this.
Kevin Abrams 15:02
Yeah, it was always this funny parallel race we were running. We were - I mean, we're very independent in the sense that we didn't have the resources of HBO and stuff. There was another documentary project that was being filmed simultaneously about an element of the story with a cop that got murdered. And they thought was somehow linked to the Gun Trace Task Force. And there was a big question mark as to how he died, or whether it was suicide and all these things. So, they were doing that film, we were doing our film, our writers were writing a book. We Own This City was based on another book that a Baltimore Sun writer was writing, and our writers were sort of like the Village Voice people of the conversation. Much more independent, and, you know, probably politically left. So, there was always these funny, we're interviewing them, they interviewed these people the week before, all this stuff going on. And, you know, We Own This City with the muscle of HBO was able to get that whole production done before we even finished edit. You know, we started a year and a half before, but it was actually a great lesson and a creative - I guess always, like, counterpoint for us, because it made us really think about what we were going to do to distinguish our film in comparison to those other projects. And the lovely thing about it is people were very open, and there was people we shared in common that spoke to both sides of the creative, that would allow us to know what they were doing. So, we kept trying to reconfigure our ways to make the story viable in a new way, and that's once again what led us to focus on the victims. And we realized that, you know, they were doing a lot of stuff that was about the police and the institutional elements with Simon, you know, [...] with The Wire, that he has been able to deconstruct. For us; so, it was like, well, if that's no longer on the table creatively, like, let's even then really hone this with our lead Ivan Bates, and then with the victims and their story, and for me, it gave it a really impressive through line and emotional gravity that I never was initially attracted to, because I saw the sensational Serpico type elements to it.
Matthew Sherwood 17:00
Right. Right. But no, I think - and as you say, I mean, there's no - I mean, it's - well, I don't know, you probably don't see it as a companion piece, but they all fit together, right. I mean...
Kevin Abrams 17:09
I completely see it as a companion piece. And I wish there were more companion pieces, because there's so many other things that are touched upon with what happened that still, I think need to be recognized and actually make good compelling stories.
Matthew Sherwood 17:23 (20:05)
And what about, you know - so, let's talk about the victims. I mean, were they reluctant to tell their stories? I mean, they've been burned before...
Kevin Abrams 17:30
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 17:31
I mean, reliving the worst moments of their lives in many cases. How did that go about - come about?
Kevin Abrams 17:38
Yeah. I mean, we were incredibly lucky, because we were there on the goodwill of people that are, well, good ambassadors to doing right by them. Baynard and Brandon, they have incredible journalistic integrity. They're very compassionate writers and people, and reporting on them, locally, they have a very good reputation for doing right by people that they report on. In addition, we had Ivan Bates at the time, who did a lot of pro-bono, and worked trying to help them achieve better outcomes in their cases, get them dismissed, all this type of stuff. So, we were really lucky that our allies locally can speak on our behalf. And because of that, we really did our best to not take advantage of that gift. And when we showed up, it was always under the pretense of whatever made them feel most comfortable. They didn't want us to film something, we wouldn't film it. If they didn't want to see use something in edit, we wouldn't use it. And we just tried our best to respect the gift of being open and honest with them, especially because of what has happened to them in the past.
Matthew Sherwood 18:41
Yeah. I mean, Ivan Bates is potentially an up-and-coming star, isn't he? I mean, he's...
Kevin Abrams 18:48
I know, he's been all over the news recently. He just passed a gun control bill in Maryland, and he's going aggressively after gun control. That's one of the major issues that we talk about tangentially because that's why the Gun Trace Task Force, you know, in essence was created, but it's just - its murder rate is high there, and people are always trying to find ways to bring it down.
Matthew Sherwood 19:11 (21:52)
And what other challenges did you face, besides everything being bootstrap, and...
Kevin Abrams 19:16
I mean, you know, my back was a huge challenge! Three AM in the morning, you know, 43, carrying gear around and strapping it to the hood of cars, I'm like, you know. I mean, we - our biggest challenge, truly, was after we had all this footage; we amassed an incredible assortment; stuff that, you know, we thought - we always - when we saw it was going to be a Altman-esque tapestry of crime and violence through the filter of this task force and what it meant for a city and what it means for a nation. So, we shot everybody. We shot governors, we shot mayors, we shot our police. Commissioners, we shot a ton of different lawyers. We have a ton of different victims [...]. So, a lot of what our major challenge was, was the edit. And, you know, we submitted to festivals and went right before Covid with a two hour and change cut, two-fifteen [...], and super-ambitious, and the film didn't quite find its voice there. And, you know, one of the blessings for us during Covid, is it gave us the ability to go in and keep refining our story. And right now we have a 90 minute film...
Matthew Sherwood 20:24
Right.
Kevin Abrams 20:25
So, for us, one of the great challenges was how to balance the sensation on the thriller-like elements with it, with the human elements that made you actually care about the outcome. And, you know, with a little sanding, I think we finally got there.
Matthew Sherwood 20:40 (23:22)
Yeah, no, I think you did. I mean, what about getting the FBI on board, too, because that's...
Kevin Abrams 20:44
They were great. And listen, this is a huge testament to their work. So, they were proud to share the wonderful work that they did with us. So, they were very responsive, and we're able to also get the prosecuting attorneys to talk about it, too. And they had a lot of work, too. And even the victims in particular, they hold them to a high standard, and they appreciate the value of what they did on behalf of them. But, once again, I think it was a symbol of the city and the people involved wanting to show that they could address something like this, and that there could be good outcome, in spite of what led up to it.
Matthew Sherwood 21:23
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's - I mean, as you say, Baltimore is sort of ahead of the curve...
Kevin Abrams 21:31
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 21:31 (24:20)
... in some ways bad ways. But is this, maybe, being ahead of the curve in a good way? Are we - is Baltimore setting a standard, do you think, for where we could be heading?
Kevin Abrams 21:42
I hope so. I mean, I'm constantly amazed and inspired by that city. And so much of it is because of the people on the ground. I have incredible admiration for the reporters, you know, there's a great new periodical come out called The Baltimore Beat, which is a local thing that has come out recently, that really is, like, doing a great job about investigating the politics and the culture of the city. Bay and Brandon, knowing that they're on the ground there makes me feel really good about things. They have a great amount of people around them that are all fighting a really good fight. And, you know, Ivan now in office, I believe in the integrity of him wanting to find a safer city for people. And it's, you know, it's crazy. It's the biggest small town around, right; it has a population of about 600,000, but at its max it was close to a million. So, it should be housing more people. And because it doesn't, it has this sort of, like, small town feel within the constructs of a big time city. So, things move quickly. And, you know, a lot of people when they want to get involved, they can be like, Listen, I'm running for state senate, or I'll do this, and it doesn't feel like a faraway accomplishment. So, it's interesting to see how the politics work, a lot of times in real time there.
Matthew Sherwood 22:59
And before anyone has any doubts, we're not, you know, we've not taken any sponsorship from the Baltimore Visitors Bureau!
Kevin Abrams 23:05
Definitely not. I'm sure I pissed them off as well!
Matthew Sherwood 23:09
And it's like any major city; it's got its, obviously it's had its problems. But no, I think it's - I'm a big fan. And I think it's...
Kevin Abrams 23:19 (26:02)
And that was important for us. When we shot initially, I remember the first two days of shooting, we went to this one area that, you know, by all descriptive adjectives was not good. You could say rundown. Not the best version. But it was important for our story beat that we're telling. And we're filming a lot of those elements of it, and Bay and Brandon pulled us aside, and they're like, Listen, I really want you guys to be conscious of not making this sort of like real estate misery porn. There's some beautiful elements to this city, and, I understand why you see that, and you think that's significant to your story, but it's important to us that you balance out all the elements. And I was incredibly thankful for that because it made me - it was the first time that I was like, Oh, I have to look at this from a different POV. And then also, you know, when we screened the film theatrically in Baltimore, one of the greatest compliments I got was a person who came up to me, and she's like, I'm so happy you didn't just show the rundown elements, and you celebrated the beautiful parts, too, because there is other things here that people don't get to see.
Matthew Sherwood 24:23
Yeah, I think - I mean, one thing I - I was - I would echo that. I mean, I think there was, you're in some neighborhoods, and you panned back or you had a drone shot or whatever, and I've forgotten how leafy and green some areas are.
Kevin Abrams 24:37
Yeah, and those beautiful parks, and - I mean, it's an old city. It's been around for a while, and there's cobblestone streets, and there's those really charming row houses, and there's really some great Americana there, and it was good for people to remind us to focus on those things, too.
Matthew Sherwood 24:54 (27:35)
And what do you want this documentary's legacy to be?
Kevin Abrams 25:00
Listen, I think we're on the way with it. We're getting a lot of wonderful reach out. I am shocked and surprised to see that the viewership keeps growing on Amazon and iTunes. People are talking about it now. It's saturated in the way that we're hoping, which is that when people saw it, they'd recommend it to other people. And I just, hopefully, we'd like that to grow. I mean, my only ambition with this whole story, went through so many ups and downs with the actual business side of it, that, you know, it just became about getting people now to see it. And that's just been our hope and talk about the conversation. I, you know, said when it was just coming out, right before us coming out the Memphis incident happened, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but this unit, basically abused and killed this guy in a stop. And they were a similar type of tactical unit as well, and it was recorded, and it was incredibly violent. And somebody was like, Oh, your film is going to become really relevant now. And I - my immediate response was God, I really wish it wasn't.
Matthew Sherwood 26:01
Exactly.
Kevin Abrams 26:01
It is relevant. And my hope is that, I think through our medium, documentary has a great ability to humanize things, and to make things feel real is that people can get a greater understanding emotionally of what people are dealing with, that are dealing with, you know, police corruption and the victims of it. So, hopefully, it'll just keep the conversation alive and inspire people to make it something worth trying to change.
Matthew Sherwood 26:25 (29:06)
Well, and I will say, personally, I think it did give me a better feel for having the victims' perspective. Often that is, you know, people are wronged but you don't necessarily get what it's like to be on that end of the - the short end of the stick.
Kevin Abrams 26:40
And the simple repercussions. I mean, the couple, the husband and wife with the kids. I mean, their story is terrible that they got framed for this thing. I mean, a half a gram of weed, and they eventually had to - was, I think it was a half a million dollars in bail between the two of them, which is crazy to think of, but just trying to expunge what happened to get it off their records, how it, you know, haunted them for years as they would try to get jobs, how when people did background checks, it was there, the wife worked with children, it became problematic; like, nobody sees that. Nobody knows that, sure, they were vindicated. And sure, it came out that they were, you know, involved with these corrupt offers that fabricated their case, but they're still dealing with the day-to-day of having to manage that information and make it seem like none of it happens. And that is a lot for people to handle.
Matthew Sherwood 27:31
Yeah, that, no, that really struck me also the two fellas who eventually did do a plea, even though they didn't want to, and, you know, the pressure on them to...
Kevin Abrams 27:42
Yeah, that story is just - I watch it still, and when it comes up my heart just, it just hurts.
Matthew Sherwood 27:50
So, what's next for you? I mean, you've got a varied background, don't you?
Kevin Abrams 27:55 (30:39)
I do. I do. We have a fiction film, my first fiction project that I've done, that we are in the process of getting distribution for, and we're wrapping up a documentary about the fall of Kabul and sort of the resulting refugee crisis from that.
Matthew Sherwood 28:13
Oh, wow.
Kevin Abrams 28:14
And then I'm going to take my first swing at a genre project that we're putting the final pieces on. And that'll be the summer gig, hopefully. And, you know, just try to make stuff.
Matthew Sherwood 28:27
To keep you busy. I mean, did you have cameras on the ground in Kabul, when we...
Kevin Abrams 28:31
We actually weren't there personally, but we were approached by a team of filmmakers out of England and they were there in Kabul for the extrication. And they were there specifically covering a bunch of the refugees that went over to Qatar. And were trying to find out where they were going to go next. So, they shot all this footage, and they approached us about seeing if there was a way that we can weave it into a broader narrative. And we did something similar. We used their stories as ways to sort of illustrate the result of 20 years of bad protocol in this country.
Matthew Sherwood 29:06
Well, and I mean, I'm sitting here in England, I can - it's not just the US.
Kevin Abrams 29:10
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 29:12 (32:01)
Very similar stories here. Well, that all sounds very exciting, and wish you well with that. While I've got you here; so, since I do know, we were talking before we started recording that you do listen to the podcast, so thank you for that. What would you like to - maybe I'll ask, can I pick your brain? What would you like to - what would you like to see from the podcast? What questions - are there things we need to do differently?
Kevin Abrams 29:42
I think you're doing a great job. I didn't realize at first when I was listening to it, I didn't understand that you were abroad covering American docs. I was just like, Oh, a doc podcast, let me check it out.
Matthew Sherwood 29:53
Yeah.
Kevin Abrams 29:53
And the first one I listened to was the Brett Morgen one, which I found really inspiring that a seasoned filmmaker with as much great films under his belt was so candid about the process that he went through with the David Bowie doc. And it's such a cool doc from a creative and sort of formal standpoint that I was really just excited to hear how he got there, and, you know, the stories are similar. You're in the edit room by yourself, and you're like, What the hell am I gonna do? And I know how this one needs a good finish, but where'd I put it?! You know, I know he mentioned that he said that he may take a break from filmmaking. I hope he doesn't, because after that I actually went, I saw the movie before and then ended up buying it because I was like, I gotta dig deep - dig into this deeper.
Matthew Sherwood 30:40
Right. No, I, you know, I think that was just one of those things said in the heat of just having come to the end of this whole process.
Kevin Abrams 30:48
Yeah, I'm sure.
Matthew Sherwood 30:49
... that nearly - well, I think he would - I think somewhere else, he's even said, nearly killed him.
Kevin Abrams 30:55
Yeah, I mean, I guess he had a heart attack or something.
Matthew Sherwood 30:59
But, yeah, no, I hope - God, I hope that's not the last bit of film we get from him, but - and I'm sure it isn't. But no, it's a - no, it's always great to just to have that perspective, because we, you know, it's just trying to understand what, you know, what you filmmakers go through is - there's similarities, and there's also, you know, you all have different personalities and things...
Kevin Abrams 31:29
Docs in particular.
Matthew Sherwood 31:30
Yeah, they...
Kevin Abrams 31:32
You got my wife to want to watch the Stan Smith doc. She was listening the other day; we're driving for her to get her hair cut, and she's like, What is this? Who is this guy? I was like, Dude, it's Sam Smith. He's a legend. She's like, Wait, I mean, tennis. I don't know. By the end of the podcast, she was like, I want to go see that doc. That sounds cool. He sounds amazing.
Matthew Sherwood 31:53
Wow. Well, that's a - that is - well, that is great praise. And I hope that people from Stan Smith hear that.
Kevin Abrams 32:00
A little cameo from the dog!
Matthew Sherwood 32:02
Oh, what kind of dog do you have there? That's...
Kevin Abrams 32:04
She's a Australian cattle dog and Chihuahua. She's the funniest combo ever!
Matthew Sherwood 32:14
Well, lovely. That's not - I hate to break it to you, it's not the first dog that's made a cameo in the podcast. But great to have her on. Hey, Kevin, it's been great chatting with you. Again, thanks, again for making this film. Really, really enjoyed it. I think it's one of those, as you say, it's going to - slowly the word is going to be spread and people are going to see this, and I think it's a very important film. So, so thank you again, Kevin. Remind you we've been talking with Kevin Abrams, the producer, editor, writer, director, driver - I don't know what else you did.
Kevin Abrams 32:55
We're just documentarians!
Matthew Sherwood 32:57
Yeah, you know, it's actually pretty much par for the course, having been on a shoot or two recently. Anyway, the film is I Got A Monster. If you haven't had a chance to check it out, go to Amazon or Apple, and also look for it for maybe a theatrical release in, what, New York and LA, I think you're s...
Kevin Abrams 33:20
Yes, sir.
Matthew Sherwood 33:20
All right. Great. Thanks again. We'd love to have you on again, once some of those other projects, especially the doc projects, drop.
Kevin Abrams 33:28
Thanks for the awesome content. Really appreciate it.
Matthew Sherwood 33:30
Well, I appreciate your comments, and good luck with everything, and hopefully I'll have you on again relatively soon.
Kevin Abrams 33:37
Sounds great. We'll speak soon.
Matthew Sherwood 33:39
All right, take care. I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 34:24
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk