Hell or High Seas: Adventure Therapy for U.S. Veterans
Hell or High Seas (2021) follows U.S. Navy veteran Taylor Grieger and writer Stephen O’Shea on their two-year adventure sailing around Cape Horn, in some of the world’s most treacherous waters. The purpose of this extreme journey was to raise awareness about PTSD and the challenges facing veterans as they return to civilian life.
Taylor Grieger, director Glenn Holsten and producer Chayne Gregg join us to share the incredible story of how two high school buddies embarked on a journey to help veterans with PTSD—in the process helping Taylor to find healing himself.
Taylor, Glenn and Chayne discuss how the adventure became a film and how Taylor and Stephen managed to get such amazing footage even with minimal filming experience, while facing up to the challenges of shooting in such dangerous conditions. We discuss Taylor's experience with PTSD, how it affects military veterans and what can be done to help PTSD sufferers recover.
“There’s no performance here. It’s just their daily life together on this boat.” - Glenn Holsten
Time Stamps:
00:00 - The trailer for Hell or High Seas.
04:04 - What the film is about.
05:24 - Why Taylor Grieger set himself such an extreme challenge.
06:31 - How they got the idea to sail around Cape Horn.
07:40 - How Chayne and Glenn got involved with the production.
11:14 - How Taylor got quality footage without having any prior filming experience on the Hell or High Seas sailboat.
16:50 - Glenn’s experience in creating films around mental health.
18:59 - What PTSD is and how it affects you on a physiological level.
21:54 – Taylor’s advice for family members of people who suffer from PTSD.
24:45 - The possibility of recovery from PTSD and how this can be achieved.
28:12 - How people have responded to the film's screenings.
31:22 - The work Britain is doing to help its veterans after combat.
37:19 - How people can help raise awareness about veterans' struggles with PTSD.
39:51 - The next projects Glenn is working on.
42:15 - What Taylor's goals are now.
Resources:
Hell or High Seas (2021)
Royal Logistics Programme
Fresh Fly
American Odysseus Sailing Foundation
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Taylor Grieger:
Connect with Glenn Holsten:
Connect with Chayne Gregg:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 83: Hell or High Seas: Adventure Therapy for U.S. Veterans
Taylor Grieger 00:00
My name is Taylor Grieger. I'm a veteran Navy Rescue Swimmer, and now I sail veterans around on expeditions. I'm based out of Texas.
Glenn Holsten 00:08
I'm Glenn Holsten, and I'm a documentary filmmaker.
Chayne Gregg 00:12
I'm Chayne Gregg. I'm a film producer and co-owner of the production company Freshfly.
Taylor Grieger 00:19
Expecting a pretty good storm tonight. Not one of those hit you and quit you types.
Stephen O'Shea 00:35
There are waves crashing over the bow. Flooding the railings.
Taylor Grieger 00:41
You make mistake out here you die. I got here with a dream that I've had since I was a kid, man. All I wanted to do was sail around the world. And I joined the military as a stepping stone to make that possible. After getting out of military, I was diagnosed with PTSD. And it was pure hell. I ended up putting my Glock to my head, and pulled the trigger, and it didn't go off. What am I still doing here? Was it a second chance? I wanted to show my buddies getting out that they weren't the only ones going through this.
Speaker 1 01:23
That kid loves with a huge heart, and to him, all the military guys are his family.
Taylor Grieger 01:28
So, I took up an impossible challenge: sailing around Cape Horn to raise awareness about what's really going on with veterans. I put everything in to this expedition. I've lost everything for this expedition, too. Boat's leaking. Caught on fire last night. We're pushing our luck. I question myself all the time. Is everything that I've given, going to change anything? You feel alive out here. You're working with the winds, you're working with the water; you know, she beats you down but at the same time she rewards you when the sun comes out and it's just a ray of sunlight coming out over a glacier.
Speaker 2 02:04
That kid won't give up. He won't give up on anything.
Taylor Grieger 02:09
You're not prepared for everything. All you can do is just take the storm and keep on pushing through it. Life is worth the fight.
Matthew 02:18
That is a trailer from the documentary, Hell or High Seas. And this is Factual America. We're brought to you by Alamo Pictures, an Austin and London based production company making documentaries about America for international audiences. I'm your host Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. This week, it is my pleasure to welcome the filmmakers behind the recently released documentary, Hell or High Seas. Taylor Grieger, Glenn Holsten, and Chayne Gregg. The film is a ripping adventure about two Texans who decide to sail some of the most treacherous waters known to man around Cape Horn in a patched up sloop. In raising awareness about the plight of US military veterans, the film also teaches us something about the human spirit. Taylor, Glenn, and Shane, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you? I'll start off with Taylor. How are you?
Taylor Grieger 03:12
Yeah, man. Yeah, thanks for having us. It's cool. It's good getting to talk to you.
Matthew 03:15
It's great to have you on. Glenn?
Glenn Holsten 03:19
Doing well. Thanks for the invitation. And thanks for the nice words about the film.
Matthew 03:23
Yeah, well, it's my pleasure. And Chayne, how about you? How are things?
Chayne Gregg 03:28
Great. Happy to be here, man. Glad we're doing it.
Matthew 03:30
Okay, well, just to remind our listeners and watchers, the film's Hell or High Seas; recently released, it's available to stream on various digital platforms, or you can go to their website, hellorhighseas.com. So, congratulations. You got a film made. I think it's getting great reviews, from what I've seen. And maybe Glenn I'm going to start with the director on this one. Maybe you can give us a little synopsis for our audience. What is Hell or High Seas all about?
Glenn Holsten 04:04
Well, Hell or High Seas is about Taylor Grieger's adventure - journey, actually, to heal himself but also raise attention to the troubling fact that many people who return from military don't return healthy and then end up taking their lives, dying by suicide. Taylor wanted to raise awareness about this fact that exists in America that an unfortunate number of people die every day by suicide - veterans - but he also wanted to challenge himself by taking this adventure and sailing around Cape Horn, which is bottom tip of the world, and some of the most dangerous waters.
Matthew 04:52
And Taylor, this is your story, isn't it? I mean, Navy veteran, you've had your own struggles with PTSD. Very candid moments in the film, sharing your innermost thoughts. And what were you hoping to achieve? I mean, not even about the film just - you decided to set off from Pensacola in a patched up, beat up, sloop that you'd repaired. What was the point of the journey?
Taylor Grieger 05:22
Yeah, well, "candids" a nice way to put it. So, thanks for that. Yeah, I thought - it was weird whenever I got back to the States, and there's a lot of stuff going on with my body that I didn't understand. And that, I think, you know, compounded all the problems that I had. One of the biggest things that happened me whenever I got back was my adrenaline would start running for no reason at all. And I didn't know why, man. And it was just - it was weird, and it was really scary, honestly, because, you know, I thought that something was really wrong with me. And so, the goal of the film, and the reason why we made a film was to kind of show my experience, so the guys coming out after us didn't have that same experience I did, but they knew exactly what was going on with the body and they didn't just go down that PTSD spiral which can just ruin your life. Hoping that if they saw what I went through, and that you can heal, and you can get better that they won't have to go through what I did when I first got back.
Matthew 06:26
And whose idea was it to sail around Cape Horn of all places?
Taylor Grieger 06:32
Yeah, Stephen and I had some whiskey one night and we're talking about...
Matthew 06:36
[laughing] That's how these always get started!
Taylor Grieger 06:41
We're talking about how we can help the boys and, you know, it all revolved around using film and using media to reach them. Because I mean, this is the first time in our history that we can do that, you know, if you think about every war that we've ever come back from, there hasn't been a way to reach every single veteran in the States. And so, using film, and putting it out online, was a no brainer for us. The next question was like, Well, how are we going to get anybody to watch it? You know, we're not going to be YouTube stars as we don't have bikinis on our boat or anything. Well, we're probably gonna have to do something really dangerous that nobody else has done before. And then, I mean, that just came around to Cape Horn, there's kind of no question about it. We got to sail the baddest bars in the world if anybody's gonna watch this, so. So, it kind of made the decision for us.
Matthew 07:27
Okay. And there's so much more to it than just that. But Glenn and Chayne, I mean, how, and when did you all get involved? Chayne?
Chayne Gregg 07:39
Yeah, we saw, actually, through Stephen's aunt, who had worked with Glenn on another film, brought it to our attention. And she sad, she's like, You should, you guys should check out what my nephew's doing. He's doing something pretty, pretty cool. And it's pretty intense. And, you know, we looked at some of the early footage that they had done. And when we understood, like, what the purpose of making this film was for, what it was all about, we were kind of, like, in very quickly, because Taylor and Stephen had done such an amazing job, you would think that they had, like, camera training or something. I don't know if they just got lucky the whole time, or if, like, these guys actually had some skills. But, no, just what they had put together already was very compelling, visually. And we knew that there was a story there. And, you know, we wanted to join in with them and help them shape that and tell that.
Matthew 08:41
I mean, when someone's aunt comes to you and says, I've got this nephew and his friend who've got some, they're doing this thing, you must have been skeptical at first before you saw the rushes or the dailies. Go ahead, Glenn.
Glenn Holsten 08:57
Okay, absolutely. I mean, I was really worried that it would be a bunch of cell phone footage that I would need some Dramamine for, before I had to watch it for being seasick myself. But, you know, as they were making these little Patreon videos to help support their journey, so they had a real mission and a purpose for making these videos. But when I watched them, and I also shared them with our editor, Vic Carreno, I immediately saw the whole thing. I saw a really great pair of main characters, I saw really wonderful, natural human beings who felt comfortable with each other on camera, there was no performance, there's no performance in here. It's just their life and their daily life together on this boat. And I also saw this journey that was giant and big and scary, and that they were fearlessly attempting. We met them sort of halfway, when the journey had taken a hiatus for many, many reasons. And we quickly - Stephen came from Texas to New York, and Chayne and I are based in Philadelphia, so we had a quick meeting, and, I mean, it was such a pretty easy agreement, Yes, we will help you. And from that moment on it became, you know, us supporting them with some technology, although they had done a great job of sort of stacking the boat with gadgets and stuff to make pictures and sound. But also, it helped us sort of steer them in sort of what to capture. I was very pleased at the last screening when Stephen said that the one thing that he remembered from our conversation was that I told him, when in doubt, just shoot the faces. So, and that - those are some great moments near the end, when we're looking at Taylor's face, and John's face, and you see Stephen's face as well. So, I was really happy to sort of give them gentle guidance that way.
Matthew 10:45
And Taylor, how did you - I mean, like the guys say, you already had, I mean, you've got this gentle push towards the end. But how did you guys pull this off? Because you're not trained filmmakers. Yet, you were already doing a little bit of that capturing the faces and these very intimate and poignant moments and at the same time, I mean, what the hell it must be like being on a boat with just one other guy for hours, and days and months and years on end.
Taylor Grieger 11:14
Yeah, no, we're not filmmakers at all. That was one of the other things that we kind of talked about, along with, if we were going to do this, and we were going to put video or film out to veterans, to the veteran population, we had a very real conversation. I was like, if you've ever watched any film with a veteran before, and anything is wrong in it, they're like, the biggest critics in the world and the harshest critics you could ever watch a movie with; so, we're like, if we're going to make film, we've got to try, you know, there was a conscious effort to try and capture what it was really like on the boat. Yeah, it took us a couple of weeks to get used to cameras, right? Just because we've never done anything like that before. But I mean, we downloaded a bunch of YouTube videos, just like the maintenance on the boat, you know, filming was a part of that learning process. So, we - when we were at sea, we'd just watch all the YouTube videos we downloaded on how to film and how to frame properly. Yeah, we didn't know anything about that; so, it was a learning process. I mean, the expedition was two years. So, after a year of trying, you know, you have to get decent, capable at it, or you'd have to quit. We had a lot of time.
Matthew 12:33
You had a lot of time. But what do you - I mean, it's just two sometimes three guys on that boat and you've gone through some hellish storms and seas. And yet, you're capturing yourself dangling from the rigging trying to make repairs and stuff like that. I mean, that's - I don't know, I'm not a - I'm certainly a land lubber. I get seasick just crossing on a ferry. But I can't imagine trying to save the boat and also film all that at the same time.
Taylor Grieger 13:05
It was tough. Yeah, man. There's a lot of times when we thought we were going to die. And we just didn't pick up a camera because we were trying to keep the boat alive. So, as far as a lot of those scenes were - a lot of the hard scenes in the film are some of our "easiest-hard" moments, I guess is the best way to put it, just because we didn't - we didn't have another hand to stay alive out there; so, it was a task for sure.
Matthew 13:29
I think maybe that takes us to a good point to give our listeners and watchers an early break. But we'll be right back with Taylor Grieger, Glenn Holsten, and Chayne Gregg, the filmmakers behind Hell or High Seas, recently released on digital platforms and available on hellorhighseas.com.
Factual America midroll 13:49
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Matthew 14:18
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with filmmakers Taylor Grieger, Glenn Holsten, and Chayne Greg. Hell or High Seas is the film, recently released on digital platforms, and also available on the website, hellorhighseas.com. So, I think, Glenn, you were saying you got involved sort of halfway through the project, the journey, I should say, maybe. And once you were on board, then what was your involvement? Did you fly down to Patagonia and...
Glenn Holsten 14:49
Yes.
Matthew 14:50
Yeah. And that must have been incredible.
Glenn Holsten 14:54
It was fantastic. They had completed the journey. So, we - Chayne and I - went with a super talented cinematographer named John Pope. And we filmed with Taylor and Stephen, for, goodness, Chayne, what was it a couple of days?
Chayne Gregg 15:09
Yeah, we were filming - it was like a six day trip, and we filmed like three or four days of it. So, we did a lot of filming down there.
Glenn Holsten 15:17
Yeah. And there was this key interview that Taylor was very willing to participate in, wherein he sort of talked about his roughest moments in life. The moments of deciding whether or not he wanted to live, and that was missing from the footage that they had, and we'd had conversations about it. We knew that we needed to give those layers to the film. The adventure was wonderful and amazing. But we needed to give the depth of the story. We needed to gather the depth of the story. That was one of our chief challenges in Patagonia. And then also, we're able to grab all this kinds of footage of Patagonia itself and Taylor, and Stephen in the environment that is sprinkled through the film, rather cleverly. So, that there's this - and again, they did a great job capturing it all. But there's this level of polish through the film that is because we were able to sort of sprinkle some of that in. It was a wonderful adventure. I've loved every smell of it.
Matthew 16:16
And I mean, so besides filling in the, sort of the pieces, or adding that depth as you mentioned, I mean, I think both you and Chayne have experience with films that deal with some of these subjects. I mean, is that also part of the challenge, because it's a very personal film, we'll talk to Taylor in a minute about this, but to get people to - who've suffered through this - to share that on screen, that must be quite a challenge, or is it bringing that to life?
Glenn Holsten 16:50
Yeah, I have done quite a few films about mental health and mental health journeys. It's really important to me. I grew up with a mom who was depressed a lot. And my family, we didn't know how to talk about it. We didn't talk about it. We didn't have a language to give to our feelings. So, as - not a kid, I really want to be a part of giving people language for a conversation. So, taking someone like Taylor or any person who's had this journey of a tough, tough journey that they've worked very hard to work through, I know that that's the most precious thing that they can share with somebody and I have to honor that. And so, I really wanted our time together to be safe - you know, really safe for Taylor - and I wanted him to feel that he was giving this precious gift over to someone who would hold it and care for it as it should be cared for. So, that was my utmost priority. Luckily, you know, Chayne is such a great guy. And John is such a great person as well. And so, there was this very sort of feeling of support throughout the filming that we felt for and from each other. And I think that helped. I think it did. Taylor will tell us what he felt during that time.
Matthew 18:07
Well, and Taylor, I'm not gonna make you relive that moment. I think we're talking earlier before we started filming about spoiler alerts. I think the details of that conversation are best saved for the film in some ways, but maybe you can - I mean, the whole point of this was to raise awareness about PTSD and veterans. Maybe, if you don't mind, I mean, do you feel comfortable? What is it like living with PTSD? You know, and maybe why do so many veterans have it? I think what was very interesting about you and this film is raising the awareness about even those who are non-combatants, how they suffer with it as well.
Taylor Grieger 18:54
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. I think the biggest thing and the easiest way to start with talking about PTSD is people think it's all bad memories that you relive, you know, and so part of it, because when you go through those bad moments overseas, your adrenaline is running; it's trying to keep your body alive, and there's a direct correlation between memory recall and adrenaline. So, you see those terrible moments as clear as you were there today, you know, that's definitely part of it. But what I didn't know, and my biggest problem was, I didn't understand how physical it was; how your body on a physiological level changed. So, when you live in an environment where your adrenaline's running constantly, you constantly think you're gonna die, you know, flying in helicopters, for instance, those things are made to stay in the air, right? So, your adrenaline is always running and you have a level of cortisol always being released into your body. And that actually shrinks the hippocampus in your brain and reduces its size over time. So, if you spend, you know, six years or 10 years or 20 yours living like that your hippocampus has shrunk. Your hippocampus is in charge of your body's fight or flight reaction whenever your adrenaline starts running. So, whenever you're back in the States, and your adrenaline starts running for no reason, because that's used to operating at that tempo, your body can't respond correctly to that fight or flight reaction. So, you get, like, you get real tense and scared, like you are going to fight someone right now. And I had no idea how physical it was. And when you compound that on top of the memories that you live through, your adrenaline's running, you start seeing those times you were overseas, that you don't want to think about where you live, they compounds, man, and that is so overwhelming. For me, I didn't want to live in this world anymore. It was just so dark and disgusting, dude; there was no reason to want to stay in this world and be a part of it. And that's all I saw every single day. And, you know, we hear it over and over again, at these screenings that we do now, veterans from Vietnam, from World War Two come up and say the exact same thing. They say, you know, I've been living like this for decades, and nobody has ever told me this. And that breaks my freakin' heart, dude; like, those guys have been in pain for 20 years, 30 years. That's why we made this film to kind of talk about it, and say, you know, like, there is a physical problem here that you can actually heal. And we talk about that in the film, too, that your hippocampus can regrow whenever you are in environments where your adrenaline's running, your endorphins running and, you know, that's one of the biggest things we talk about when we do Q&As in the screenings, is adventure therapy and how you can heal; you don't have to live in the darkness anymore.
Matthew 21:37
And I mean, Taylor, what would you say to family members? What would your advice be to them? In terms of their loved ones who come back and good chance they are suffering from this?
Taylor Grieger 21:54
Yeah, that's always a really hard question to answer. Just because - I broke about every single relationship that I had, whenever I was going through this, and I pushed anyone that cared about me away. And I was, I mean, nasty, you know, just anybody that ever loved me, didn't at that point. So, I usually tell family members that, you know, after they've seen my story, I mean, it's a big ask, but yeah, I usually ask for patience, you know. You're trying to heal, you're trying to get your body right again, but until that happens, you're not going to want to live, you're not going to care about those relationships. So, forcing things on people, like, Ah, you got to go, you need to go to the VA. VA didn't help me at all when I got back. That was the worst thing. I don't tell people to do that. And I have a lot of respect for the VA and people that work there, but they didn't help me one bit. Appeal didn't help me one bit at all. Made things worse, actually. So, I tell people, Look, the best you can do is be patient, and put something in front of them, some adventure therapy program from, you know, just so long as they know that they can get better, because it's going to click in their mind, they're going to push everybody away, but it's going to click at some point or another but I don't want to live like this anymore. And they'll see that there's an option to get better. And getting out with guys that have been through it and been overseas with you before in an environment where your adrenaline's running and your endorphins' running, you're seeing some of the most beautiful things you can see in the world will make you want to live again. So, if there's families listening to this, and they have family members going through it, I would definitely point them to an adventure therapy program near them. You don't have to say anything. You don't have to be like, You need to go to this now. Hey, there's this group of guys that are going through what you went through. They're doing cool stuff, like trekking through the mountains on horseback for 30 days or going sailing for two weeks off the coast, you know. There's options to get better. So, that's where I would start.
Matthew 23:51
Okay, I really appreciate that. Not to go personalize this too much - I have my own connections to someone who has served and, you know, it's one of those things; you mentioned, World War Two, Vietnam, and these are the, you know, these are the generations that never talked about it, you know, and, you know, I think we think this is something new, but I just think maybe it's something that we just never recognized previously, or should have recognized. I mean, Glenn and Chayne, I mean, you, I know you've done a lot of different things, but as you said, you have some connections, have done some mental health related projects. I mean, what do you think many of us don't realize, in your experience when you're, you know, what - particularly veterans - people like Taylor are going through, and others, with these sort of mental health issues.
Glenn Holsten 24:44
I think it's such a simple message: recovery is possible. Recovery is possible for anyone who takes that step who - as Taylor pointed out it needs to come from within, but there are all kinds of supports around once you take that step. Actually, it's a circle. Once you step into the circle that you - say you want to, you want to change. And that's where I find such strength, and such personal inspiration for someone who's brave enough to take that first step into that circle where they say they want to change. Because if they can get through these journeys, you know, my little, it seems so pale in comparison. But I think every one of us has that strain, I just think we need to be alerted to it.
Matthew 25:22
Okay. Chayne, did you have anything to add to that?
Chayne Gregg 25:29
Yeah, sure. You know, I agree exactly with what Glenn said. And, you know, a question that we get often is, how can I be supportive? You know, what can I do to help? And, you know, I think that there is a part for everybody to play, you know, and it doesn't have to be big, you know, it could be as simple as, you know, call your friend up and have a cup of coffee with them; invite them over for dinner. If you don't know a veteran, and you want to get involved, there's plenty of opportunities, you know, you just got to show up, and that's it, you know, it's really about giving your time, you don't always have to say the right thing, you know, and I think it's just more about being present. And so, with that, you know, personally, after having now been involved in this project for four years, you know, I kind of feel, like a sense of, like, hey, you know, I feel like there's a level of my own personal responsibility in the sense of like, here's a group of men and women that have first served for us, and provide, you know, certain freedoms for us that we are able to enjoy, like, hey, I'm able to be a film producer, and I love what I do. And that's credited back to our military and veteran personnel. And so, it just feels like to me, like, there should be at least - I should be at least making an effort to meet them halfway in some way, shape, or form. And it could, just like I said, be as simple as just being present, you know, being aware, and having just a basic understanding of, hey, you know, transitioning out of the military and back into civilian life is not necessarily always easy for everybody. And just like Taylor said, just be patient. But be there, too, you know, and that was a big takeaway for me from this.
Matthew 27:27
And, I think, Taylor, you've already mentioned this, but from all of you, I mean, you've mentioned the - you've done the screenings, you've had some incredible receptions from audiences. And I've seen this, you know, get on social media, Facebook, Instagram: I see how this is resonating. I mean, it must make you feel good, in a way. And also, what are the lessons you've taken from that? Are people being inspired by this film, who are included, you know, various things, whether they're suffers, or the family members or friends?
Taylor Grieger 28:11
The coolest thing we've seen in the screenings is - or I've seen myself - I've gotten a lot of hope from it for our country, man. And it sounds cheesy, I know. But we did go the route for the better part of a year trying to talk to congressmen and even try to talk to senators here in Texas. And that just went nowhere. We couldn't get anywhere with it. There was just the problem was too big, it's too big for us, we can't handle it. So, it's pretty discouraged on our mission whenever we got back to the States. And then we started doing the screenings, and we do these screenings around the states and these communities, and these communities give a shit, dude. And they, like, come pouring out, like, how can we start these programs here in our states? How can I get my niece or nephew, or son or daughter, in front of one of these adventure therapy programs? And I'm glad to say, you know, I mean, there's 1000s of adventure therapy programs around the states because other veterans, you know, went through what I did and started a program themselves in whatever state they're in, in whatever community there in. There's been a need for it and people have taken upon themselves to make sure our boys - our brothers and sisters - are taken care of, so. I mean, that's the coolest part is communities are doing it themselves to take care of our own whenever we come back, and not waiting on the government to do something about it, which I think for me has been incredible to be a part of and to see. I mean, it's just really, re-lit the fire in me but as far as feeling good going these screenings, I mean, I don't feel good going to any of these screenings, dude, because the people that come to these have been hurting for years, you know, and haven't been getting the help that they need. So, I think if anything, it pisses me off more and makes us all more motivated to get this in front of as many people as we can to let them know they're not alone. We definitely feel like we're reaching people but, I mean, there's nineteen million veterans in the States, you know, we got a long way to go before everybody's getting the help that they need.
Matthew 30:06
But I gather the - maybe, just slowly, a few of the politicians are starting to listen and hear what you're saying.
Taylor Grieger 30:18
Yeah, some are. We're getting a little bit of attention - not near as much as we should - I mean, for context, you know, whenever, like, for instance, when the GI Bill was created 75% of our Congress were veterans, you know, and now, our Congress is close to 32% veterans. So, it's not that they - it's not their fault. You know, I think that's what everybody gets mad about, Oh, the government's not doing anything, I think that they just don't know. I really do. And that's part of why we made this film, to kind of show people what's going on, and that there is a problem, because if you haven't served then you have no idea, you really don't. So, that's another leg of the film, you know, if we can get this in front of people that make policy we can start creating programs for veterans when they out process to let them know what's going on and how to heal. Other countries are doing it much better than we are, man, like the UK - like you guys in the UK. It's in the film, you saw that?
Matthew 31:08
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, that was my next question. Because you've got that great scene. You got the guys from the- I don't know what the UK - the British army is doing in a boat, but anyway, you ran into them. Tell us a little bit about that.
Taylor Grieger 31:21
Yeah, I mean, it's just one of the things that happens with this film, we all kind of laugh about now, because it's happened over and over again. But the chances of two boats meeting in the world, in the Panama Canal, at the exact minute of the day is just unreal, dude, and for that boat to be filled by active duty military guys is, I mean, it's unheard - it's out of this world. I mean, I will never be able to describe it. But, yeah, the boats crewed by active duty military. It's funded by the Royal Logistics Corps there in the UK, and their unit - I had no idea about this program, first. I don't know if I said it on film, but we had no idea that something like this existed and they're telling us on the boat because we're flying - we have the Mission 22 flag flying and they're like, dude, Mission 22, man! Nice. You guys are here are veterans? Hell yeah, we are going to Cape Horn, you know, they were all of that. They were like, That's so sick! They were like, We're doing the same thing. I was like, What the hell is a bunch of active duty army guys doing out here? And that's the first time I ever heard anything like it. They said, So, when we go on deployments when we come back, the third of our unit out of time is required to go on an adventure therapy program. Either it's sailing, hiking, or kayaking or camping, like they get to choose. And their command funds that program so they rotate through when they go back, you know, and, I mean, a light bulb, dude. All of our problems in the states around PTSD and veteran suicide. I mean, we talk about it in the film, you know, people just build veterans' houses and give them counseling, and give them medication, you know, but there isn't anything being done to prevent veteran suicide at all. And these other countries that are working where the veteran suicide numbers are going down are focused on preventing guys getting there, you know, so, we need to start doing that in the States, you know, it's proven. And it's not hard to do we just have to start doing it.
Matthew 33:13
I think that's a good point. I mean, it's, I can tell you having lived here awhile, the veteran - well, it's still higher than the national average; veteran suicide rates were quite high. But then, as you noted, actually, they're starting to try to do something about that. But it's been an issue here as well. But - no, I thought that was a really cool moment in the film. And certainly, I really appreciated that. I mean, I think this is, I mean, and again, I just say as someone who's seen it, I found this quite an amazing film, in that you've got this adventure, you know, how many films combine an adventure story with raising awareness with, you know, also, you know, informing us about, you know, these issues that, I mean, personally, and I can say, as an American citizen, I think one issue you kind of alluded to, with, you know, how many in Congress are veterans, I mean, we've been having wars and things without, you know, a good part portion of the population being sort of unaware that all this is happening. You know, I think so few of us have had direct connections to what's been going on. So, thanks. Thanks again for bringing this to - for being crazy in deciding to go around the Cape Horn. You know, Texans aren't supposed to do that. We're crazy but we're not supposed to go around Cape Horn in a little boat, but thank you for doing that and the power of Jack Daniels. I think we're starting to come on the end of our time together. I mean, Glenn and Chayne, is there anything else you want to add about this project that was, I mean, you must be very proud of this and thankful to have Stephen - I guess we should give a shout out to Stephen. He's the person who's kind of not been mentioned. Oh well, he's been mentioned, but he was your buddy here, Taylor, and he's a published author, short story author, and, but thanks to his aunt for bringing this to your films. But anything - I'll let you say, maybe a last word about the film that you might want to add.
Glenn Holsten 35:43
I would like to give a shout out to our editor, Vic Carreno, the editing team, I mean, we had hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage to sift through, we actually had two editing rooms going at the same time. So, the first brush that was looking at all the rushes at double speed, stopping at moments that looks like something that seems to be happening and paying careful attention to them. And then we dump that footage over to Vic's station where he was working, and working with him to craft the flow of the film was really exciting. We had one of those big charts with stickies all over it - scenes described. And so, I think that everyone wanted to honor this journey. And I think it brought out the best in all the crafts people who worked on it. The animation is amazing.
Matthew 36:23
Yeah, I was gonna add that.
Glenn Holsten 36:25
Andrea Bitai and Penny Ashman...
Matthew 36:28
And the music?
Glenn Holsten 36:29
Music, Mike Aharon: composer. Yeah, I mean, everyone gave their best and the film is a composite of everyone's best. And, you know, Chayne behind the scenes, always pushing that boulder up the hill, always pushing. Thank you, Chayne. It was a film that had to happen. We couldn't leave this footage on a hard drive somewhere. It had to be crafted into the story that it deserved to be. And I really feel like it's there. And that's, if there is a pleasure in going to the screenings, it's saying, My goodness, you know, we did it. Which is, you know, they did the journey. Another smaller journey is the making of the film. But it is still a journey.
Matthew 37:13
And Taylor, did you ever imagine this finished product would look like this? This must be exceeding your expectations.
Taylor Grieger 37:21
It is, yeah, very much so. Everybody that worked on this film we wouldn't have a film to show if it wasn't for them. And certainly, all those voices, people in pain for years, would never be heard if it wasn't for them. I know John, Stephen and I are forever grateful to his crew. I think Glenn put it the best, you know, I feel like they're just like Sisyphus rolling the boulder up the hill!
Matthew 37:49
Indeed, a lot of classical Greek literature and mentions through this film, and here as well. And Chayne, carry on, what were you going to say?
Chayne Gregg 38:01
I wasn't, I have too much more to add other than it has, you know, I think you said earlier on it has been an honor to be part of this, you know, we're - it really has been a privilege to work on this to get to know, guys like Taylor, it's really been an eye opening experience, and it's been really positive. And then, you know, and, you know, it's just like it says in the film, and I don't wanna give away too much, you know, the work continues, right? You know, right? And now we're in this zone of trying to share the film with people and how do we do that and things like this that we're doing with you are really great. And, you know, we just - to use that reference of pushing the boulder up the hill, we're still doing that; we're pushing the boulder now, in terms of talking to people about the movie, you know, I feel like I'm a broken record. I'm like, Oh, if you love the movie, then leave us a review, man. You know, because it helps. Do you know what I mean? So, to all those listeners out there, if you love the movie, leave us a review. YouTube, IMDb, Rotten Tomatoes, whatever you like, you know, give us a thumbs up or whatever you like to do. It really helps. And, you know, we're a real grassroots effort. Because we don't have, you know, we don't have a Disney or a Marvel Studios budget to market this. So, we rely heavily on supporters to help us move to the next phase and move to the next screen.
Matthew 39:27
Okay. With that in mind, I think we are coming to the end of our time together. I just was gonna ask each one of you. What's next for you? Glenn, what's next, in terms of projects you're working on? Are you going to be the typical filmmaker and say, Oh, I've got a lot of projects, but none I can talk about at the moment?!
Glenn Holsten 39:51
Oh, I've got a lot of projects, I'm happy to talk about all of them! [Laughter] I mean, another unfortunate story that I'm working on is the impact of gun violence in the city that I live in, so I'm investigating that through first person stories, people who've been directly affected by violence. I'm engaged in a portrait of a civil rights activist who was a great hero of mine, and he's 83 years old, and he's just got arrested last week. So, lots of good things. I'm doing a portrait of a painter, Jamie Wyeth; I did a portrait of his father, Andrew Wyeth, before...
Matthew 40:26
That's right.
Glenn Holsten 40:27
And that's been quite a beautiful film to work on. So, I'm feeling very rich in stories and very lucky in life.
Matthew 40:34
We look forward to seeing those and Chayne, how about you?
Chayne Gregg 40:38
I just ride Glenn's coattails, man. Yeah. [Laughter] And now I'm gonna pick up on Taylor's, too; so I'll just ride Taylor's coattails as well, you know.
Glenn Holsten 40:47
It's not riding, you're driving! You're making it happen!
Taylor Grieger 40:51
It's true, you're the driver.
Matthew 40:54
Freshfly must have something other - other things going on?
Chayne Gregg 40:58
Oh, yeah; no, we do. Yeah, we have, I mean, we do a lot of commercial work, too. And that's a big part of our business as well. You know, the advertising and commercial side and - it enables, you know, that enables us to do these sorts of films where, you know, we can then take the time and put resources towards doing something that we're passionate about, and we feel like can be bigger than ourselves and serve a larger purpose. And you know, that's really why we do a lot of these films and these projects, because it enables us to use the skills, the skillsets, that we've been able to acquire over the last number of years and put them to good use.
Matthew 41:42
Well, that is a well trod path for many documentary filmmakers. I know it goes all the way back. It keeps the lights on while you get to do the stuff you enjoy, like this project. And Taylor. I think you've already mentioned, and I know it comes up in the film, but congratulations, you've started a family. What's next for you in terms of what you're also doing in terms of helping veterans.
Taylor Grieger 42:14
Cool, man, thanks. Well, yeah, pushing the film is still a big, big part of us. We're still doing screenings. Our next screening is at Parris Island, it's a big Marine Corps Base here in the States. That's on December 10. So, getting in front of active duty guys and veterans is still a big part of our goal. Next goal is to get an Academy Award, dude; get nominated. So, if anybody knows anybody that votes on these things, hit us up, because, dude, I mean, we'd be able to reach so many veterans, if that happened, you know? It'd be millions of veterans that would see it, that would never have seen before. That's the next big goal of ours. And then, on the other side, personally, John and I are sailing. We started a foundation down here in Texas. It's called American Odysseus Sailing Foundation. This last year, we sailed with 56 veterans, we go sail for a couple days or a week at a time down the coast of Texas. That's a big goal. And focus bars are done for the season now. We'll pick back up in March. And then the next one is my tequila is finally coming into the states. I don't know if you guys watched the news, but this logistics backlog off California is killing us. So, I should have some bottles in about before the end of the year now. Yeah, we're supposed to have them two months ago that didn't happen.
Matthew 43:24
So, you should be - are you bringing your bottles in from China? What's that? So, that hasn't been mentioned but you have - I did see that - you're a man of many talents. You've invented a tequila. Is that right? You've developed a - and so, yeah, what's the supply chain issues that are killing you? No bottles? Is that right?
Taylor Grieger 43:47
No bottles, no glass bottles. Yeah. Covid hit pretty much glass manufacturers in Mexico shut down or raise their prices, like, $5 a bottle which, you know, crushed us starting out so, yeah, it's been a long road. But that's a conversation for another time.
Matthew 44:04
That's a whole different podcast. That's the...
Taylor Grieger 44:06
Yeah!
Matthew 44:06
I'll refer that to The Economist or someone. But, hey, well, thank you guys; really, really enjoyed having you on. It's been a pleasure. Just to remind our listeners we've been talking with Taylor Grieger, Glenn Holsten, Chayne Gregg, the filmmakers behind Hell or High Seas, recently released on digital platforms and available on the eponymous website hellorhighseas.com. So, thanks, guys. Good luck with the screenings and all your future endeavors. And we'll be on the lookout for those and, yeah, again, a big thank you and I really appreciate you coming on. I'd also like to give a big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio, in Escrick, England. Big thanks to Nevena Paunovic, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting such great guests like Taylor, Glenn and Chayne on to the show. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. As always, we love to hear from you, so please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please remember to like us and share us with your friends and family, wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 45:22
You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, specializing in documentaries, television, and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the shownotes for more information about today's episode, our guests, and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @alamopictures. Be the first to hear about new productions, festivals showing our films, and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk