Dog Days: The Truth Behind Gunther’s Millions
Gunther’s Millions is about a dog who is living anything but a dog’s life. Gunther is a German Shepherd. He lives a life of luxury thanks to a huge trust fund. But did a Countess really bequeath her money to him? And what can be his interest in the homes of celebrities, pop bands, and perhaps even a sex cult?
The answer, of course, is that – being a dog – he has no interest in any of these things at all. The humans who look after him, however, now that’s another matter.
In this episode of Factual America, Emilie Dumay and Aurelien Leturgie, the co-creators of Gunther’s Millions, join Matthew Sherwood to discuss the strange story behind the adorable photos of a very rich dog.
It is a story that crosses continents, that involves the accidental revealing of private documents, of a mastermind who is as brilliant as he is eccentric, fraud, and even scientific experiments.
As Emilie and Aurelien open up Gunther’s weird and wonderful world, we find out how his story has affected them, both as filmmakers and individuals. Ultimately, though, the conversation comes back to the dog who started it: Gunther, who is not only the world’s richest dog, but also, as Aurelien suggests, a philosophy, a fantasy, and an icon.
“... you can't really judge a book by its cover. And that's really also what we've learned there, through this wild ride... money does not make you necessarily happy; it just provides you a little bit of comfort to create things. And that's what [Maurizio] does best.” – Aurelien Leturgie
Time Stamps:
02:24 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this week’s film, Gunther’s Millions, and his guests: co-creators Aurelien Leturgie and Emilie Dumay
05:06 – Aurelien explains what Gunther’s Millions is about
06:12 – Discussing Gunther’s lavish lifestyle
07:26 – How Aurelien and Emilie approached the story with an inkling that all was not as it seemed
09:13 – How that inkling didn’t stop Emilie or Aurelien from being surprised by what they found
10:26 – Gunther’s lifestyle defined: The Thirteen Commandments
12:32 – Becoming part of the journey towards the truth
14:08 – Maurizio Mian: the man behind the dog
20:06 – How Aurelien and Emilie persuaded Maurizio Mian to be interviewed
25:39 – On why people want to believe in the ‘myth’ of Gunther and his millions
27:15 – Maurizio’s attempts to control the narrative
28:53 – Various aspects of the crazier elements around Gunther’s millions
32:03 – Maurizio’s research into happiness
34:40 – What Emilie and Aurelien learnt about the pursuit of happiness through making Gunther’s Millions
37:12 – Who, or what, is the real Gunther
38:57 – Aurelien’s background as a creative and director
40:39 – What next for Emilie and Aurelien
Resources:
Gunther's Millions
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Emilie Dumay:
Connect with Aurelien Leturgie:
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Transcript for Factual America Episode 122: Dog Days: The Truth Behind Gunther’s Millions
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:24)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary, and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. Multimillionaire Gunther VI lives in the lap of luxury. He travels on private planes, eats gold flaked steaks for dinner, and surrounds himself with a glamorous entourage of spokesmodels and entertainers. He is also a German Shepherd. As the legend goes, a rich German countess bequeathed her fortune to her beloved dog, and placed him in the care of her deceased son's close friend, Italian pharmaceutical heir, Maurizio Mian. Over the past thirty years, Mian has built an empire on behalf of his canine boss, including buying Madonna's mansion in Miami while engaging in controversial social experiments, and one of the biggest tax frauds in history. And that's just the beginning of the story. Join us as we talk with Aurelien Leturgie and Emilie Dumay about their documentary series investigating the complicated truth behind the world's wealthiest pet. Stay tuned. Aurelien and Emilie, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Aurelien Leturgie 01:15
Very good. Thank you for having us.
Matthew Sherwood 01:17
Yes. Just to remind our listeners and viewers, we will be talking about Gunther's Millions, the new Netflix docu-series, releasing on February 1. I believe that's when this recording's releasing, so it will be out by the time you all listen to this. But welcome again to Factual America. Congratulations, I think you have a real hit on your hands. So, these must be very exciting times for you and your production company. And how does that feel, Emilie?
Emilie Dumay 01:47
It feels great. I mean, we've been working on this project for about two years now. So, it's really exciting to have it come out soon, and being able to share it with the world.
Matthew Sherwood 02:00
Okay. I think - well, I probably don't need to say 'spoiler alert', but there's - I would suggest, and I highly recommend everyone just - if you have a chance, watch the series, and then maybe come back to us if you don't want to have anything spoiled, but at the same time, I think in terms of the trailer, and a lot of the publicity coming up to this, there's a lot that has been revealed. But Aurelien, maybe you can start us off with - let us, maybe, tell our listeners what is Gunther's Millions all about; maybe give us a brief synopsis.
Aurelien Leturgie 02:36 (05:06)
Sure. Well, Gunther's Millions is a shocking and very bizarre story that really feels like larger-than-life, and sounds like a fairy tale. There's Gunther, the richest dog in the world, and it's about his wealth. It's about his lavish lifestyle and mansions, and his glamorous entourage. But there's also a lot more than what meets the eye, and that's why we decided to go deeper and tell the story.
Matthew Sherwood 03:02
Okay. And so, it's the world's richest pet, supposedly. There's a - it's bit of a - once we find out, or, it's a bit of an urban legend surrounding this. There's a lot going on here. But Emilie, let's go back to the main subject, or the title at least, Gunther. He is a German Shepherd, and describe his lifestyle for us, maybe, if you don't mind. And is that really Gunther in all the opening credits, and we see throughout the film?
Emilie Dumay 03:42 (06:12)
I mean, yes, Gunther lives, you know, Gunther VI lives in Italy. He lives in a beautiful villa, in a beautiful mansion. He has, you know, a great lifestyle. And, you know, just throughout the years, the story of Gunther's taking, you know, place in Italy, in the Bahamas, in Miami; you know, the riches of the dog have gone through, you know, real estate investments, created a pop group, they've own Madonna's house in Miami. There's just a lot to this story that was - that there's been, you know, throughout the years, and this is the richest dog in the world; so, his lifestyle is pretty, is pretty glamorous.
Matthew Sherwood 04:32
Yes. Eats steak and likes caviar, I think, and they buy yachts for him, and things like that.
Emilie Dumay 04:40
He actually owns a yacht in Italy as well.
Matthew Sherwood 04:42
Yes, a dog actually owns a yacht. At least that's what we're told. But Aurelien, from my understanding, going into this, you knew there was more to the story, didn't you?
Aurelien Leturgie 04:56 (07:26)
For sure, I mean, you know, to be honest with you, we, like everyone else, we - when you hear about a dog that has all of this wealth, and a trust in the Bahamas, you must come across a few thoughts as far as who's behind this, who's pulling the strings. Also, in addition to that, you know, there's been a lot of media reporting the story throughout the last three decades. And, you know, there's - we came into the story with already suspicions about what is real, what is reality versus fiction. So, we came into this knowing that there was definitely a lot more to discover and uncover. And that's what we - that's why we want to take the viewers, you know, on the same journey that we did, of getting the truth out.
Matthew Sherwood 05:47
Yes. And I have to say, it is one of the craziest stories I've ever [laughing] I've had the experience of... I don't, I can't even - that doesn't even do it justice, I must say. I mean, this was - as you already said, I think you've described it as crazy, bigger than life, and - but you hear things about films that say that, and then you actually sit down, and maybe they don't necessarily live up to the hype, or the buzz, but this - my jaw dropped more than a few times, certainly, while watching this, but - I mean, Emilie, did anything prepare you for what you were to uncover? Because, like, Aurelien was already saying, Yeah, there had been some stuff written over the years, some interviews - you've obviously done your background research - but did you have any idea some of the stuff that you were going to uncover when you started this project?
Emilie Dumay 06:42 (09:13)
Definitely not. Not all of it, at least. We had definitely done our research. We had seen what was out there. And most of the things that were out there were about similar storyline; they were about the Madonna purchase, about the dog living the rich life. But when we started digging into it, there's just a lot more to the story, and every twist and turn that, you know, it took us through. So, it was a lot more. And we didn't realize at first that we were going to take that journey, we were going to be taken for a ride, and we had to, you know, uncover a lot of the truth that, you know, that we were, you know, faced with; so, definitely a larger journey than we expected, but every twist and turn was really fun to add to that story.
Matthew Sherwood 07:31
So, I mean, what did you - if I may follow up - I mean, what did you envision the film looking like? Because it's obviously not, I'm sure the finished product is nothing like, maybe what you were imagining when you were initially pitching this. What did you think you were gonna have? Like a - maybe a feature on this dog's ridiculous lifestyle? Is that the extent of it? What were you thinking?
Aurelien Leturgie 07:56 (10:26)
So, I think that we were expecting, really not maybe everything that we uncovered, but we knew that we were getting into something very interesting, mostly because there was a really big 'a-ha' moment for us at the very, very early stages, that was kind of like a turning point, or turning point in our vision, and our approach. And that was actually pretty bonkers, even crazier than you can think. We were exchanging emails with Maurizio. We were trying to get the access, trying to ask questions, and so, I think there was a document that was sent to us, that was not meant to be. And that document - Maurizio is very well spoken, and writes and reads very well, but sometimes gets a little excited with emojis and documents and attachments, and I think he sent us a document that was literally were the Gunther's lifestyle, the Thirteen Commandments...
Matthew Sherwood 08:53
Right.
Aurelien Leturgie 08:54
And we were like, Well, alright, well, there's a Trust in the Bahamas; you know, there's a first beneficiary which is a German Shepherd, that's crazy, but now Thirteen Commandments, a lifestyle, that's even crazier; we need to jump on a plane and meet that gentleman and get the full story. So, that was for us a moment where we realized - it was a moment of realization where, this is bigger than what we even expected, and we already had very high expectations. So, it was like, We need to get this. We need to go to dig deeper.
Matthew Sherwood 09:26
And so, exactly. So, what ensues, as Emilie was also saying, is a filmmaker's journey, literally; you're criss-crossing across the globe: Tuscany, Miami, the Bahamas. And that - So, that was a decision on your part that you were definitely, as you tell the story, we were going to live the journey that you went through in terms of uncovering this story; is that right?
Emilie Dumay 10:01 (12:32)
I mean, it kind of unfolded that way. At first, we were just, you know, really digging into the story, and trying to really feature the characters, and getting to know the story. But I think, at some point, we realized we were also part of the journey because of all the revelations that we were coming across. And we - you can hear our skepticism through our questions, and you can hear, kind of the - and we realize this is the actual way of telling this story, it's the - is the, kind of, what was presented to us at first, and what we've uncovered, you know, through our interviews, through meeting those characters. And these characters were all so amazing, and so large, you know, larger than life, and, you know, better than the previous one. So, it was just - it wasn't necessarily the way we were going to tell this story at first, you know, but we realized that it was a big part; we were a big part of this because of the journey we were taking with these revelations, and these characters.
Matthew Sherwood 11:08
But at the center of this story, I mean, obviously, there's Gunther the dog, but as - you've already made mention of Maurizio Mian, who's - some find it kind of funny, describe him as Gunther's handler, but he's, or is he the mastermind? Or, I mean, who is he? Maybe you could tell us a little bit more, Aurelien, about who is this man, Maurizio Mian?
Aurelien Leturgie 11:38 (14:08)
Yeah, well, first of all, I mean, you know, Maurizio is a very eccentric Italian businessman and entrepreneur. We had an instant connection with him when we met. He's extremely likeable. He's very mysterious. You definitely, you know, great people's person. Like, he is bizarre, but he's brilliant, but he's bizarrely brilliant. It's really a mix of everything. And he truly is at the center of this story. I mean, we - and we knew that, you know, we would have never been able to make this documentary series without, you know, not only his trust, but his involvement. So, what also - the story of Maurizio really led us to so many different path, and, you know, we constantly uncovered something new with him. And, that said, that, you know, that said, I think it took us to a deeper journey also of understanding the psyche, understanding, you know, deeper subjects, and why, you know, the Countess, why the son of the Countess, which are, like, more - you know, deeper themes, and that would go well beyond just the rich dog.
Matthew Sherwood 12:51
I mean, so, and you interview - I mean, my - I've seen somewhere where you weren't expecting to get more than one interview with him, and he's - I can tell you got - you had multiple interviews with him. Yet, one thing, I mean, it's not just him - we can talk a little more about this, about all the incredible characters and subjects in this film - but, you know, you obviously would rock up, do an interview, I don't know, a few months would pass, you'd come back, and do another interview, and they're saying something almost completely, totally different than what he was saying in a previous interview. So, did you ever - I mean, you say you had this rapport with him, but did you ever feel like you really - or even now - really know who he really is? Because I think the thing about this, that strikes me if I'm not giving away too much, is that I kind of left watching this thing, because I have had the chance to see the whole, the all four episodes, not really knowing for sure what the truth is, in a lot of these situations. So, is he - how do you feel? Do you feel like you know, what is and isn't the truth, now that you've had all these couple years filming with him, and all these interviews with him?
Emilie Dumay 14:16
I mean, it's a great question. It's, you know, throughout the years, we've done our best to try to really crack this story and go deep into our research and investigation of all these elements of the story. Obviously, there are a lot of things that just remain in Maurizio's hands because he's the one who holds the truth about certain of the storylines, but we feel like, you know, we like, you say that first, you know, we went in and we met Maurizio, we asked him; we had our first interview with him, and there's a lot of things that we were told that we were able to come back and really confront him on later in the series, and later in our investigation, and we feel like we got to a very true Maurizio by the end. I mean, there's always going to be Maurizio's creativity and eccentricity; there will, you know - he might come up with new things, and there'll be - there will always be, you know, a Gunther story, but, you know, there's definitely a lot of things that he had to let go off and really come clean with, especially with the story of the Countess, the story of the son of the Countess, which he was very attached to; so, and then, you know, all the explanation of the money and there's just a lot that we were able to really have him explaining and come clean with. So, we feel like we give - we really gave this story, a good A to Z approach.
Matthew Sherwood 15:50
Okay, actually, I think that takes us to a good point to give our listeners and viewers an early break, but we'll be right back with Emilie Dumay and Aurelian Leturgie, the filmmakers behind Gunther's Millions, four part Netflix docu-series releasing on February 1.
Factual America Midroll 16:11
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list, or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter @alamopictures, to keep up-to-date with new releases or upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 16:30
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Emilie Dumay and Aurelien Leturgie, the filmmakers behind Gunther's Millions. They're the co-creators and executive producers, and Aurelien directed. It's a four part Netflix docu-series, and it released February 1. Aurelien, we were just talking about Maurizio Mian, and getting to know this guy, and - you had these multiple rounds of interviews with him, and I think it's a bit cliché, but I think it is appropriate this time, you're literally peeling back an onion as you're going through this. But why - the other question that comes across when you're - when, at least for me, when I was watching this, is, what is Maurizio and Carla, his business partner and ex-wife, why do they agree even to be interviewed? I mean, I would - strikes me there's potentially some legal implications here. I mean, what's this about?
Aurelien Leturgie 17:36 (20:06)
Well, you know, first of all, I want to say that Maurizio and Carla have been approached by, you know, producers and people in the industry for quite a long time trying to tell the story, but I think the approach has always been the same: a very fluffy piece on Gunther. And kind of like the obvious. And I believe that, you know, when we flew there, and we met with them, and we sat down, we were very honest about our approach. And our approach was like, you have a crazy headline, you know, you have all these things that, you know, point Gunther as the heir of this fortune. But, you know, we want to understand what that means, and we're going to ask you very, very specific questions, and we're going to - you're going to be on for a ride with us. And I think that our honesty is what got us there, and got us - got them to respect us as filmmakers. And then, to answer your question more in depth, I believe that, you know, when you have a lot of money, there's one thing that sometimes people do have as well as an ego, and I think that Maurizio loves people to talk about him, they love to - he loves to be the center of - not just the center of attention, but at least the, you know, he loves the story of Gunther, his story to be told. So, I think when he saw the opportunity, and our angle was different, I think, you know, they were on board, you know, and the last thing, yes, there are some touchy subjects, you know, there's tax evasion, there's a lot of things, but there's also one thing that we mentioned in the series, you know, is that there was a, there was a - something called the Tremonti Law, which is an Italian tax, let's say an offshore, you know, incentive for people that have offshore accounts to bring back money, and kind of clear their names, and they've actually been part of that incentive. So, they also feel that they've cleared their names and that things are - they're in a good place now to tell that story
Matthew Sherwood 19:36
And is it - also get back to this point that I guess, as we find out, as we learn more about Maurizio, is that there's also this addiction to celebrity isn't there? Does he ever - I mean, he never wants to be out of the - I mean, he's an odd character in that he doesn't want to be out of the limelight - he doesn't put himself necessarily forward. He always has these bands and these groups that he puts together to do that, but at the same time he wants to, or as he always talks about his so-called boyhood friend, wants to, you know, has this addiction for these sort of things, and pop music, and celebrity; is that - I mean, I guess that's part of it too, isn't it?
Emilie Dumay 20:23
Yeah, that's right on. I mean, he's - Maurizio has had a fascination for pop culture, celebrities, and the world of communication. And, yeah, he's always tried to - he's had a very interesting relationship with the media. He's always tried to kind of manipulate the narrative in creating these bands, creating these experiments, creating these, you know, buying soccer teams, and Madonna's house, and creating big splashes in the media. We also have to remember that he has, you know, he's the, you know, the last, you know, three decades of Gunther's story were mainly before social media, and I feel like he would have been very different, his story would have been very different, if social media had been around, and he was able to create influencers through his groups. Because everything he - what he was trying to do is really what influencers are doing today, really pitching, you know, his ideas, and his findings through, you know, this media attention. So, you know, it's very interesting to see what this is nowadays.
Matthew Sherwood 21:39
Well, you bring up a very good point; several very good points in that. So, as you say, this is pre - a lot of this predates social media - but also, one thing about that, because it predates social media, doesn't - that's, you know, we don't have urban myths anymore, right, because social media just explodes them immediately. Yet, you know, I mean, they last for a few days or weeks or maybe a little bit longer, as we're finding out with certain politicians in the US, but I think, you know, it strikes me as you said, you bring - and Aurelien was saying this earlier - you brought this honesty - you - I mean, you have ample archival footage where news, you know, typical newscast, local newscasters in the US talking about the world's richest dog buying Madonna's house, and now selling Madonna's house, or trying to buy Sly Stallone's house, but no one just, as you said, there're a lot of [these] approaches were about fluff pieces, basically, but no one in the - no one really, I mean, no one has really delved into this like you have, and which, you know, it's interesting, why do you think that is? Why do you think that - do people want to live - buy into this myth that has surrounded Gunther and his millions?
Aurelien Leturgie 23:09 (25:39)
Yeah, I mean, I think that people are very attracted to the beautiful story, the fairy tale story, of a countess giving her money to her dog. I think there's something magical about this, that is, you know - it's almost like you've seen these articles, you've seen things, you've seen - you've read - we've read through things that were pointing at, you know, all the flaws of the story, but yet, you know, those were not the ones that stayed. The articles that stayed, and the facts that stayed, were, over the years, were the ones that the Countess had given her heritage to her German Shepherd dog. So, yes, absolutely, there is an admiration for that story. People love good stories. And, I think, that no one really took the time to dig further because it took us two years. It's a commitment. I mean, we, you know, it's not just that, you know, we had to really, really invest our time and energy into this that not necessarily everyone could have done that. So, it's just a long process.
Matthew Sherwood 24:17
Well, and then also the - likewise, there's a great - many great scenes, obviously - but there's this one scene where you're interviewing Fabrizio Corona, right, this influencer himself, right, and he says, Is Maurizio paying for this? So, I put that question to you. Is Maurizio - I think I know the answer already. But, you know, it is a funny question, and one worth answering.
Emilie Dumay 24:45 (27:15)
You know, it's funny - Well, first Fabrizio Corona was one of the wildest interview of our careers. He's an amazing character. But, you know what, the question really stems from what Maurizio has done, you know, throughout the years, and the kind of - Maurizio has always tried to capture the narrative and control the narrative, and so, he's put together a lot of projects himself, trying to put himself out there. So, there's a lot of people who have come to him with ideas, and they're - a lot of them expected Maurizio to, you know, pitch in and work with them in creating these projects. We came in with a very different angle, and that's why we included this line in the show; it's because we came in and we told him, No, no, we're doing it on our own. We're telling your story, but you're not controlling this; we're telling your story, but we're asking the questions to every single person that has been part of this story, and they'll tell us what they want to tell us. But Fabrizio's line was right on because this is something that Maurizio's done in the past when he's tried to control the narrative, and really do - done his own projects, but those never really came to life.
Aurelien Leturgie 25:59
That line was definitely a - you know, I mean, we had to explain ourselves - with Netflix's [...]. I mean, they asked us, Did you get paid for this [laughter]. You know, if that's the case, then we have a problem. We never got paid for this. This is why actually it works so well.
Emilie Dumay 26:18
And this is why we would include that kind of line in the show.
Matthew Sherwood 26:22 (28:53)
Well, I think it's emblematic of the craziness that is this story. I mean, we haven't - I'm assume people are listening to this, who are - you know, it's on Netflix, I'm sure by the time they get this, it will be trending; it will be Number One if - or certainly going that direction - but, you know, let's just, as you said, the crazy - I mean, there's tax evasion, I think you've - maybe one thing you've possibly uncovered is something we haven't even talked about, is the whole sex cult nature of this kind of thing. Obviously, there's the real estate empire, buying up soccer teams, and putting porn stars in places; presidents, you know, I mean, and then these social experiments, which were probably - is that - was that - I mean, you know, I think we all, like, you know, all filmmakers want to say there's never before scenes and stuff like that, but what was - what is one element of this story that you weren't - I think you have alluded to it already: that document that you got about the Thirteen Commandments and things like that. Was that an element of the story that you were not aware of, or fully aware of, going in? And that's kind of one of the big, big things to drop out of this?
Aurelien Leturgie 27:35
Yeah, I think that you know, the Thirteen Commandments, and that document we had received, was a good indicator that there was something even crazier than what was already there. I think that what we maybe didn't know right away is that the Thirteen Commandments and this lifestyle, and this - we call it a sex cult, it's also called Total Perfection. But the concept - the true concept of putting these people in this house, and having Gunther pay for their lifestyle, and so on, was really based on something a lot more, a lot more legit in some capacity. It was based on, you know, the Maslow scale, or they had their own version of the Maslow scale of what happens if you give people everything they need. And can you create happiness? Can you create, you know, the, you know, the perfect, happy person? And that was kind of like, we didn't know that at first, and we - and that's also one of the things is, you know, Maurizio has this genius about him is that he's definitely using his skills as a professor, and as someone that also is a scientist, a mad scientist, but there was something a lot deeper than just a sex cult and beautiful people early on, you know, influencers living in the house. There was actually a real research behind it. And Matteo Pacini, who's a scientist in the series, is actually real; he's not a - he's not a, you know, he's not a fake scientist, he's a real scientist. There was something real behind it that really we didn't know that when we got started.
Matthew Sherwood 29:13
Well, I mean, that's one of the things I was gonna ask you. Is this - I mean, I didn't doubt that the doctor was - that he was a scientist, or that he was real, but are these experiments really real? They almost felt like a ruse to - for something else; but, I mean, are they going to - is he going to try to publish something in scientific journals?
Emilie Dumay 29:32 (32:03)
I mean, they've been doing a lot of research on this happiness. The happiness research has been something that's been ongoing. They've done - you know, they've worked with different university, different professors. Matteo Pacini has been a big part of it, and he's a psychotherapist in Italy. So, there's - you know, it's interesting because this research was really the reason for all of this. You know, like, there's - not the reason for all of it, but for a lot of it, and it comes back to Maurizio's own personal journey with mental health and finding happiness. So, I think he's doing it, you know, to try to, you know, help himself but other people, but it's just - the scientific journey was a real one that we - that he is very, very passionate about. And he really cares about, and we - it really didn't strike us at first. We realized that as we were having those discussions with him, and uncovering all these pieces of the story.
Matthew Sherwood 30:32
I mean, he's even talking of creating - I mean, he doesn't use the terms, but almost like a super race of happy people, of some sort; you know, it's - but, in - I mean, you talk about this, it's in episode four, certainly, or it's even before that, but I mean, I don't think we're giving too much away, do you think he's - do you think he's found happiness? In your experience in having spent two - parts of two years with him?
Aurelien Leturgie 31:08
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And I think that's also a big question in our series, and to be honest with you, I think that if you ask Maurizio, Emilie and I have had that conversation with him off-camera, many times, you know, as well. I think that Maurizio will tell you that, you know, it comes and goes. I mean, it just - sometimes he's happy, sometimes he is not; he's going through waves, it's a roller coaster. I think it's just his live - you know, he's learned how to live with this. I don't think he's found true happiness. And I think that there are moments of his life where he's truly happy and others where he's down. It's just, it's just the way, you know, the way he is, and he understands that, and that's already a big achievement, understanding his own, you know, mental.
Matthew Sherwood 31:58
And then for you as filmmakers, have you learned anything about the pursuit of happiness in doing this project? I'll put that to you first, Emilie.
Emilie Dumay 32:08 (34:40)
A tough question. We definitely, I mean, we definitely learned a lot through the process, and especially through our many, many conversations with Maurizio. It just, you know, it really opened our mind to kind of, you know, the perception of society, of what makes people happy, and what, you know - definitely his views on marriage, his views on relationships, his views on a lot of things, are just things that, you know, are worth exploring, and maybe his eccentric ways are a little bit different in the way he tries to portray and tell those very interesting concepts. But, yeah, we've learned a lot through this process, even us as partners, and as, you know, through trying to do this together. And, you know, we've had our ups and downs, and it's been a journey, for sure, definitely. And just kind of even just the idea of like, creating a relationship with someone who's also, you know, who you have to confront on certain lies and things, but just, you know, it's also an interesting - it was definitely an interesting relationship that we had with Maurizio that made us question a lot about ourselves and our, you know, journey as filmmakers. Aurelien [...].
Aurelien Leturgie 33:40
No, no, I agree with you. And also, I mean, I think that you will, you know, when you watch the series, and you learn that the money is, you know, comes from Maurizio's family, then you realize that he has the money, you would think, how can you be, you know, how can you be depressed? How can you suffer? You know, mental health with that kind of money, and being able to do whatever you want, I think that is a good lesson, I think - a good life lesson is that, you know, and might sound a bit, you know, random and, you know, and unexpected but, you know, is, you know, most of the times you know, things are not always as they appear they are, and you can't really judge a book by its cover. And that's really also what we've learned there, through this wild ride, is that Maurizio, despite the amount of money he has, is going through the same things, and it's relatable, and money does not make you necessarily happy; it just provides you a little bit of comfort to create things. And that's what he does best.
Matthew Sherwood 34:42 (37:12)
So, to take this all the way back to Gunther. Who are what is Gunther really? He's more than a dog, isn't it? I mean, what it's - it could be just the dog's name, but, it seems - I think you make reference to it being as a sort of - it's a philosophy, it's a way of life in pursuit of happiness. That's what - is that a fair assessment?
Aurelien Leturgie 35:11
Yeah, I mean, I want to say that, you know, Gunther is, you know, Gunther is the first beneficiary of the trust. I mean, that is written on paper. It is the legality. But yeah, in the series, we explore it. Gunther is real. Gunther lives with Carla. There is a Gunther VI. There, you know - so, there is a Gunther physically that exists. But yes, the, you know, there's also, Gunther's also an iconic. Gunther is also a philosophy. Gunther is also a, you know, a fantasy. There's a lot of other things. And I think Lee says it very well in the series, it's - you know, is it real? Is it fantasy? Does that even matter, you know, at that point. And it kind of like resumes it very well. It's a beautiful story. There's twists and turns, and at the end, it's - yeah, it doesn't even matter. You know, we just got a very wild ride, and it's very enjoyable.
Matthew Sherwood 36:07
Well, I - yes, it's a - I will second that. It's a wild ride, and people should - you will enjoy it, if you haven't had a chance to watch it, yet. Let me ask you, I mean, is - back to you, Aurelien. Is this your first director - first time as a director?
Aurelien Leturgie 36:27 (38:57)
I come from the world of development; so, I've actually directed a lot of pilots and, you know, I would create - I'm more of a creator. So, I would create, I would develop, I would usually direct, you know, pilots and sizzles, and proof of concept. So, I'm very much - it's my first time directing a documentary series. I think that, you know, you know - I also come from a background of directing music videos, early on in my career. So, I've directed and, you know, I think this approach also, with Emilie, was definitely a great also, person to have with, and we've, you know, we've both directed this as well, because it's been a very creative journey for both of us. And, but yeah, it's my first documentary series as a director, yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 37:15
And so, maybe next time, Emilie, will you be the director on the next project?
Emilie Dumay 37:22
Maybe, maybe. On paper, but we're a team, so, we definitely work - bounce off each other. And we're very complimentary in our work; so, you know, it definitely, it definitely helps to have a partner that matches with you, you know.
Matthew Sherwood 37:40
Well, that certainly comes through. And so, yes, thank you to both you for making this. I mean, maybe we're actually kind of coming to the end of our time together, it's hard to believe, but what are you - I mean, what's next for you? I mean, I know you're just still - this is only just launching now, you know, releasing - you want to bask in the glow that is Gunther's Millions, but can you say anything about any future projects that you have in the works?
Aurelien Leturgie 38:09 (40:39)
Well, you know, development is always a bit secretive. So, we can't really reveal any of our future projects. What we can say is that, you know, we - our production company is called Nobo Productions - N.O.B.O. And it stands for No Borders and No Boundaries. And that's really what we're looking after. We're looking after these, you know, stories that are international, that are wacky, crazy, amazing, inspiring, but really take place and have an international footprint, because we really want to reach an entertainment global audience. And I think with Netflix, we found the right platform for this, being in 195 countries, and we want to pursue that. Those are the stories that really intrigue us, and that we want to pursue.
Matthew Sherwood 38:54
And how do you find those stories? What's the, you know...
Emilie Dumay 39:01
That's an Aurelien question! The development.
Aurelien Leturgie 39:05
There's an interesting method to this - I don't know if I want to reveal all my tricks. But, you know, there's the reverse thinking, which is, think of something really wild, and see if this is actually factual. So, there's that, but there's a lot of reading, and there's a lot of researching. They have to be very, very - you can't just follow just mainstream media, because usually when it's in the mainstream media, it's already out there. So, you have to go after more local stories and...
Emilie Dumay 39:41
But I think it's also just coming across something really interesting and having the mindset of understanding what makes a good show, what would translate well into a story that we can dig - you could dig into, and make, you know, a series, a documentary of it. And sometimes you dig, and there's nothing there. Sometimes you dig, and you realize there's a lot more there. So, that was what happened with Gunther's Millions, and there's a few things that, you know, that you work towards, and you're like, this would be a great story, and it's not; or there's not enough, you know, meat on the bone. So, it's really having those skills to understand that, and really coming across something but also realizing what makes it into a great show.
Matthew Sherwood 40:23
Well, you certainly succeeded in Gunther's Millions. So, so thank you so much. I just wanted to, really - it's been a pleasure talking with both of you. And to remind our listeners and viewers we've been talking with Emilie Dumay and Aurelien Leturgie, the filmmakers behind Gunther's Millions. A four part Netflix docu-series drops on February 1. So, both of you, thank you so much. Congratulations again. And when you do have one of those next great international story ideas, we'd love to have you back on. And yes, look forward to it. So, yes, thank you again and take care.
Aurelien Leturgie 41:07
Thank you for having us.
Emilie Dumay 41:07
Thank you.
Matthew Sherwood 41:08
All right. Thank you so much. I also would like to thank those who help make this podcast possible. A big shout out to Sam and Joe at Innersound Audio in York, England. Big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager at Alamo Pictures, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show, and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to our listeners. Many of you have been with us for four incredible seasons. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. Please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 41:53
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