Building Trump's Border Wall in Texas

Factual America
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In The River and the Wall (2019), a group of modern-day adventurers led by filmmaker Ben Masters sets out on a 1,200-mile journey along the Texas-Mexico border to understand the economic, environmental and social impact of President Donald Trump’s border wall.

They not only encounter a land of soaring vistas, outstanding natural beauty and unrivaled ruggedness but also discover something about themselves and the immigrant experience.

In this episode we are joined by Sebastian Sauerborn, German entrepreneur, founder of Alamo Pictures and CEO of Mount Bonnell Advisors. Sebastian immigrated to Texas when he moved his business, and shares his experiences living and working there to discuss an issue that divides America but unites those who make their living along the Rio Grande river.

“Immigration was not a problem in Texas, these immigrants they are not on the public pocket. They have jobs, they work hard, they are needed, these jobs need to be done. So I think a very positive approach would be the right answer.” - Sebastian Sauerborn

Time Stamps:

01:02 - About the guest.
01:50 - The documentary we will be looking at today, The River and The Wall.
03:35 - What the film is about.
05:38 - A clip from the film, being on the wall.
08:14 - Analysing the clip and the characters within it.
10:27 - The problems that building a wall brings with it.
13:01 - How illegal immigration has been steadily declining, but is still seen as such a big issue. 16:23 - Sebastian's experience with being an immigrant in the United States.
21:11 - The personal journeys of self discovery that are shown in the film.
24:02 - Another clip from the film, the wildness of the US/Mexico border.
27:12 - The beauty of the film, and its defiance of stereotypes.
29:32 - The seriousness of the issue, but how our focus should be redirected.

Resources:

The River and The Wall (2019)
Alamo Pictures
Mount Bonnell Advisors

 

Transcript for Factual America Episode 2 - Building Trump's Border Wall in Texas

You're listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo Pictures, a production company specializing in documentaries, TV and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on instagram and twitter at Alamo pictures to be the first to hear about new productions, festivals were attending and how to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk. And now, enjoy Factual America with our host Matthew Sherwood.

Matthew: Welcome to Factual America, the podcast that explores America through the lens of documentary filmmaking. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood and I will be interviewing documentary filmmakers, their subjects and subject matter experts from the world of politics, history, and culture, just to name three. Today we have Sebastian Sauerborn with us, who certainly fits into that category. He's a serial entrepreneur, originally from Germany. He has set up businesses in the US, particularly in Florida and Texas and has lived there for at least 10 years. He's currently the CEO of Mount Bonnell Advisors, which helps companies set up in the United States. And he's also executive producer of Alamo Pictures. And so we should say a thanks to Sebastian for sponsoring this podcast. So without further do, let me welcome Sebastian to Factual America.

Sebastian: Hi, it's a pleasure.

Matthew: It's a pleasure having you, Sebastian. I think we'll just dive right in to discuss the film that you would like to have a little discussion about and that is The River And The Wall, by Ben Masters, which came out earlier this year. And maybe you can tell us why you chose this film.

Sebastian: It is a very good question. So I've seen a previous picture by Ben Masters, which is about his trip on horseback, him and his five friends going from Mexico, to the north of the United States, or even Canada, which is released a few years ago. And I met him afterwards briefly at a showing of that movie and have been following since then a little bit, and I was really interested when he brought out that movie. His films are typically Texas cantered and as I've lived in Texas for a while, I enjoy them a lot. So is this film. And I find this film, the premise of this movie, very interesting as it confronts current affairs, political opinion with something as robust and unchangeable as the Big Bend National Park, for example. So there are the two massive forces colliding. And it's interesting to see how that's going to work out

Matthew: It is actually a very good point, that man versus nature element to this film. People might see the title and see the trailers and think this is all about Donald Trump's wall and keeping everyone out of America but I think it's far bigger than that, actually.

Sebastian: Yeah, it's also about imagination. I feel that there is a tendency in politics nowadays to simplify everything. We can see this in other areas as well. For example, with Brexit, where things are very simplistic and answers are very simplistic. And if you actually go there to these places, and explore them, let yourself be overwhelmed by them. You will see that it's not that easy.

Matthew: I know the films are available on iTunes. But I think for those who haven't seen Ben Masters film, maybe you can just give us a little introduction about the whole premise of the film.

Sebastian: Oh, yeah, I'd love to. So the premise of the film is that there is a group of friends who decide to travel along the Rio Grande River all the way from El Paso to the Gulf of Mexico. And they want to explore first hand how a potential border wall that Donald Trump wants to build is going to look like and it can actually be built for these hundreds and hundreds of miles. I think it's like 800 miles.

Matthew: It's 1200 miles.

Sebastian: 1200 miles they're going. So how does that look? How does that look specifically in that vast landscape and that vast countryside. So they go down the river by canoe, they ride along on horseback and then they also take the bicycle. And meet a lot of people who depend on the river for example ranchers and fishermen. They meet Mexicans on the other side of the river, they talked to Texans and talk to politicians like bitter workers on the film and others and explore that question of how wall would look like and in that countryside and that's the that's the premise of the film.

Clip 1 (from the film The River and the Wall)

Sebastian: Absolutely, yeah, I agree. I mean, the film is dominated by a beautiful footage, a lot of made with drones. And it's just amazing. So I've been myself to the Big Bend region, I think in 2017, and did a road trip with my kids from Austin to Las Vegas, Nevada, a weeks of driving. You know, it's basically three or four days of desert, and it's so vast and so amazing. So I was really impressed by the footage, by the nature photos in the countryside.

Matthew: And I will say it myself, even as a native Texan, there were things I didn't realize like, I didn't realize the Rio Grande River didn't even flow for a few hundred miles there. So hits to say, they had to start the trip on bicycles. And then they get closer to the Big Bend ranch and the Big Bend national park and that's when they get onto the Mustangs and then the canoes pretty much most of the rest of the way. I mean, I think there's obviously the whole issue of immigration. And it's an issue that many western countries are dealing with. But, I mean, I think what the film does well is sort o giving you a bit of both sides while also a healthy dose of reality. So maybe you can say a little bit more about sort of this Texas pragmatism that comes out, I think, out of this film?

Sebastian: Yeah, definitely. I mean, we can see very quickly that it's not really a political issue at all. It's just really an issue born out of necessity. So there are farmers along that river and they need to have access to the water for their farms. And suddenly, as the plan would be, hundreds of acres, thousands of acres will be cut off basically from the United States because there would be a wall there would be no man's land and others farms would cease to exist and they will no longer be able to produce and this is some of the most fertile soil in the world. So it's not really about politics, many of those farmers would call themselves conservatives. And then suddenly there they are through eminent domain will lose their land that they had in their possession for generations. So you can be left or right wing to have an understanding of this issue and come to the conclusion that it's not feasible and as one rancher in that that film said, it seems unamerican. Because it seems in a way to build that wall out of fear is not being in a very strong position. One can argue the number of immigrants that are there. I mean, the film says that the number of illegal immigrants over the Grand River is constantly falling, they are a lot less than they were only 10 years ago. But is this the right solution to the problem?

Matthew: Yeah, that is a clip I will show later, they're very sparse with their factual information. So don't worry if you're going to watch this. You don't want to be overloaded with all kinds of facts and figures on immigration, but they use it very, very adeptly. And there's a one where they look at Apprehensions, which correlates closely with traffic of illegal aliens. And yes, it peaked at over 1.6 million a year in 2002. And it's down to around 300,000 in the last year, we have data, which I think is 2017. So it would seem that traffic's even gone down by more than 80% yet. Why is this such an issue? The one thing that I think could be very frustrating for some people who are looking for a fight maybe is how agreeable everyone is. Everyone they talked to, and I don't think they were self-selecting either, they talked to Beto O'Rourke, a democrat very well-known now, we've got Will Hurt who's the republican from West Texas that's usually a pretty conservative fella. And they get it you know, they completely almost hundred percent agree on the fact that this wall is just absolutely wrong way of going about this. And everyone you talk to along the river is saying the exact same thing. Yet no one seems to be listening to these people.

Sebastian: Yeah, I think that is a very interesting aspect, isn't it? Because I think most of the people who shot for that wall live probably thousands of miles away and don't actually live in any proximity of the river or even in Texas. Because if you've been there, it's difficult to imagine how you could possibly support a policy position like building this wall. And I think so that's why this nuanced conversation, it's really just about a common sense and in my experience, and as far as I've studied American history, it was always a lot about common sense and being pragmatic. I mean, that there's one example, as I am German, from German history after the Second World War, how the Americans have treated the Germans afterwards. I mean, they could have just basically bled them to death. And it would probably still live in ruins today. But instead, they have made sure that Germans live in prosperity, they gave a lot of loans. So that Germany could have been could be rebuilt. Of course, there was an interest of, you know, having some base there against the Eastern Bloc. Yeah, sure. But that's fair enough. And that allowed Germany to, to have that amazing sort of come back to now the most important European economy, after the Second World War. And I think a similar approach to that sort of issue to the wall and to immigration would be very welcome by everyone. Especially to Texas.

Matthew: Yeah. I think. I can't say this for sure, but I imagine most of our listeners would tend to be on the same page as all of us here at Factual America, but maybe it's something you've already alluded to as a German who live there. So you've had the immigrant experience. You were not an illegal, I'm assuming. But, you know, you have these two fellows, Filipe Deandrade and the river guide who themselves were immigrants. I mean, what's it like being an immigrant in the United States?

Sebastian: Well, I mean, as in most countries, this includes also Europe, it's very difficult to go to the States legally, to move there. I mean, my visa application was always 500 pages. Yeah, because you have to submit a lot of supporting documents and evidence. And so it's a very cumbersome and complicated process. But fair enough, you know, I was willing to accept that. I didn't personally have an issue with that. Nevertheless, and the film alludes to that as well when they talk about how freely people used to cross the border to work there. I think the reality is, and there was also my experience as a foreigner, as an immigrant in Texas, who has not been exposed to too much of the experience like for example, Mexican, Latin American people in the past, my experience was again that most ranchers that I met indirectly or directly had to do with illegal immigrants, for example when building fences. But that wasn't really so much because they didn't want to hire Americans, but simply because there were no Americans who were ready to do fencing in 100 degrees outside. They saw that could be hard as a rock. So I mean, I remember the first contract that we hired to do fencing, he took a deposit and then run away, you know, and was later put in jail.

Matthew: The dark side of America, capitalism.

Sebastian: I remember living in Bastrop near Austin, and every day in the morning you would have Mexicans, illegal Mexicans or Latin American people, waiting in front of the Home Depot and you can hire them for day laborers. And everybody did it. So and nobody had any problem with it. Because this is the way to get builders. I mean, it was the usual way to do it. And there was a lot of pragmatism, right? And this has only been 10 years ago, not even 10 years less than that.

Matthew: Yeah, I think that the professor at the LBJ School of Public Policy, the University of Texas talks about the whole history there and the Besar program and there was this program in place legally in the 40s through the mid 60s of bringing labour, farm laborers especially. And I think one of the ranchers points out that, you know, for over 250 years, they've been an important part of the economy. And the idea that you just now going to put a wall up. I mean, where you're going to get this, where you're going to get the people to do this?!

Sebastian: Especially right now, where the employment is the problem situation in the United States, frankly, full employment. Where do you get those people to harvest all those crops? I mean, in fact, some of the crops basically rotten the food because there's no one there to harvest them.

Matthew: Well, I think that's a very good point. Let's stop there. And we're going to take a little break and we'll be back with you shortly.

You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Alamo Pictures to keep up to date with new releases and upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the program, our guests and the team behind the production. And now back to Factual America.

Matthew: Welcome back to Factual America, especially when we are talking about this amazing film, The River and The Wall, which I highly recommend to all our listeners. Conversation has really concentrated on immigration and the wall that Trump wants to build along the entire US Mexico border and to get the Mexicans to pay for it. But I think this is a film that transcends those issues. I think you made some allusions to that earlier. It's almost, these are more dramas, but sort of Motorcycle Diaries. This is a buddy picture where these people are going on a journey along this 1200 mile border, and it's all their trials and travails, as they do with this incredibly rugged landscape and dangerous river that the Rio Grande is in parts. From sort of a filmmaking standpoint, maybe you can say some more about that.

Sebastian: Yes, I guess whenever there's a journey in a movie it's always also a symbol for a personal journey. So you have those characters who are strangers, who are at least not close friends in the beginning and then they grow to become really close friends of the time of the journey, which always happens. It reminds me a little bit of Lord of the Rings. So the Fellowship of the Ring, they have this task. They have to pass trials and tribulations to get there. And in the process for example, also the Latin American characters in there, they get to go on a journey of self discovery because they explore their roots because their parents crossed that river, at least one of the characters, 30 years ago so he kind of relives the experience. He comes back to his own origins. It's almost like an origin story. And for Ben Masters and the other characters who are Texsan. I think it's very special to see those people with an illegal immigration background and to go through it and it changes something in them as well. And that's interesting, because whenever we witness... It's easy to talk negatively about whole groups of people. But when you meet someone and you look into their face and you spend some time with them, you share a beer with them, it's an entirely different story. So they are just human beings at the end of the day, and this is what the show is about. It's about growing as a team, and in a very beautiful landscape.

Matthew: Yeah. And they face a lot of dangers in that journey, whether it's like you say, the landscape when they're in the Big Bend National Park, or on horseback. They basically run into some dead ends and box canyons and how are they going to get out? And there is, as one of them says, no more rugged landscape that you'll find, there's no trails or anything, you just have to find your own way to the river to the other types of danger, the drug runners that they may or may not have run into. The immigration is an interesting and it's a very important element of the film, but I think it's for those who just want great filmmaking in terms of the VISTAs and this is definitely well worth a watch.

Clip 2 (from the movie The River And The Wall)

Sebastian: So as I said previously I met Ben Masters at an event in Austin a few years ago. And I also messaged him on Facebook after The River And The Wall was released. Because they wanted to organize the showing in London, but that didn't work out because of rights and logistics. But now I was very keen to. I was very keen to promote that movie also here but okay, it didn't work out. But he strikes me as a very serious young man. He attended that showing with his wife and they really have this cause, especially the Texas wildlife. One short term documentary they did was about the pronghorn, you know, the one was very it's kind of a sort of antelope black animal, which is in West Texas, and has been threatened by farming and fencing over the last 50 years, but farmers are very keen to support recovery efforts. So these pronghornes are basically caught by helicopter. And then transported maybe hundreds of miles away to other parts of West Texas, where they should be increased to be grown. So he's made a short film about that that I've seen. So, I like nature very much. I used to live on a ranch in Texas. So that's all very close to my heart. And I guess this is also why I like that film. So the combination of that the wonderful Texas countryside wrapped up in a documentary i think is just wonderful.

Matthew: I will say there's this so opening where I think it shows a sunrise on the Rio Grande. And you can hear the birds chirping and that that just brought back so many memories for me I could even feel it what it must feel like I could even feel the heat even though it's still the early part of the day. You can sense that the it's going to be a hot one.

Sebastian: You have been there. I mean you grew up in Texas.

Matthew: I grew up in Texas. I've been to the Big Bend National Park, it was a again a family road trip. So hats off to my dad, he loved to do these sort of things, get us out to places that maybe wouldn't normally go to because it's quite an effort. Drive from anywhere in Texas. And yeah, you have to take a left turn and go quite a way, pass Marfa and places like that to get down to the Big Bend, but it's definitely worth a visit. So I think in terms of a piece of filmmaking, and getting the feeling across and the beauty of the area and the ruggedness, this film defies stereotypes. People have a vision of West Texas is just desert but no, it's something that is maybe desert by technical terms, but it is something much different than what people are expecting. Just like the people they run into defy stereotype. I think if you had central casting and Hollywood going for a rancher and a farmer in Texas, we know what they would come up with. Right and they're not the guys that they interview.

Sebastian: No, no not at all.

Matthew: Everyone they interview is just very, very even keeled and pragmatic about. It almost comes out as a love for the state in that part of the world, but also let's just do this right, you know. We can just put our heads together and come up with an answer. And it does come across a bit... I think it's the ranchers or farmers wife who says it's very unAmerican. I mean, seeding thousands of acres of land essentially to Mexico just for a wall. When you put it that way, it does seem very unAmerican.

Sebastian: Yeah, I agree. Very. I think there would be other solution. I mean, having a secure border is obviously a serious issue. Drugs coming into the country is a very serious issue. But I think as the film elaborates, those drug dealers, they will not be stopped by the wall, they will find other ways. They use other port of entries right now. So I think we are probably focusing a little bit on the wrong problem.

So, I think what the film brings across very powerfully is that we could focus our energies on other things. And maybe solve that problem differently. And maybe there is not even that much of a problem to solve as you probably think. So I think if everybody would cool down a little bit, take a step back, it would seem that the Americans who managed to fly to the moon would come up with a solution technical and non technical

Matthew: Yeah. If you're talking about, whatever it is, $34 billion that needs to be spent to build this thing. I mean, the republican congressman said, I can do a lot more with that money. It's like the least best solution, it's not a solution.

Sebastian: But I mean most Texas republicans are against that. I haven't met any Texas republican who is in favour of the wall because they all think, how's this going to work?

Matthew: In a way. Exactly. It's a political talking point that resonates with a whole northern part of the country.

Sebastian: And that has always been, I think my experience in Texas. So I think, you know, why Texans and people with a with a immigration background from that America had always had got always along pretty well. I mean, I'm sure there's some, there's some issues, but in general...

Matthew: I could share some stories, but we won't now. This has been a very positive discussion, but yes, there are always issues wherever you go, exactly.

Sebastian: But in the in he public pocket, right? They have jobs, they work hard, they are needed as these jobs need to be done. So I think a very positive approach will probably give the right answer and also recognize that the the people that are already living in the country have to be there differently than someone who was not there yet. I mean, that's going to be a different question.

Matthew: Well, I think we will leave it there, Sebastian. This has been a very, very interesting discussion about the film The River And The Wall by Ben Masters, which came out in 2019. To our listeners, thank you for joining us for this podcast. Please share and like us on the Apple podcast, if you will. And this will be Factual America signing off.

You've been listening to Factual America. This podcast is produced by Alamo pictures specializing in documentaries, TV and shorts about the USA for international audiences. Head on down to the show notes for more information about today's episode, our guest and the team behind the podcast. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Instagram and Twitter at Alamo pictures, to be the first to hear about new productions, festivals were attending and to connect with our team. Our homepage is alamopictures.co.uk

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