A Brief History of the Future: Making the World A Better Place
Climate change, terrorism, social inequality and poverty, wars between nations, and injustice. Things do not look too good for the world today, and there seems to be little to no hope for the future.
A Brief History of the Future, a new docu-series on PBS, challenges this pessimistic outlook. Directed by Andrew Morgan and presented by Ari Wallach, the series visits people from all over the world who are doing something – no matter how big or small – to make the world a better place, not just for their today, but also for everyone’s tomorrow.
Andrew is Matthew Sherwood’s guest on this episode of Factual America. Together, they explore: why humans are given to pessimism – ironically, the reason is not a negative one; the idea that what we regard today as possible was once thought to be impossible; and how creativity can come out of what Andrew calls ‘this season of chaos and complexity’.
Andrew talks about A Brief History of the Future from an intensely personal perspective: he came to the series suffering from burnout after making other documentaries about problems facing the world. Conversely, his view of the future is both epic and dynamic: the future is a verb; we do it, make it, every day. Discover how on Factual America.
“We have a bias towards negativity, but we also have this extraordinary capacity for creativity and imagination, and just goodness.“ – Andrew Morgan
Time Stamps
00:00 – Trailer for A Brief History of the Future
02:36 – Matthew Sherwood introduces this episode’s guest, Andrew Morgan, and his docu-series, A Brief History of the Future
04:13 – Andrew explains what A Brief History is all about
05:56 – Why humanity has negative visions of the future
09:00 – Humanity’s short-term thinking
12:09 – The chaos and complexity that we live in
14:48 – Andrew’s mindset coming into A Brief History and the way forward
20:20 – The importance of story-telling
25:04 – From sea to city: adapting to the changing world
32:15 – How will people look back on early twenty-first century in thirty years’ time?
34:06 – From AI to Internet: the changing face of fear
38:28 – How Andrew got involved with A Brief History of the Future
44:16 – How Andrew brought the docu-series’ many threads together
46:14 – Discussing Drake’s and Kylian Mbappe’s involvement with the series
49:00 – What’s next for Andrew
Resources:
A Brief History of the Future
MovieMaker Magazine
Innersound Audio
Alamo Pictures
Connect with Andrew Morgan
More from Factual America:
God Save Texas: Life in the Land of Oil and Gas
Transforming the Planet: Discussing the Human Footprint
Reimagine Wildfire: An Elemental Threat That We Can Control
Transcript for Factual America Episode 160: A Brief History of the Future: Making the World A Better Place
Matthew Sherwood 00:00 (02:36)
This is Factual America. I'm your host, Matthew Sherwood. Each week, I watch a hit documentary and then talk with the filmmakers and their subjects. A Brief History of the Future explores our futures and how we can reimagine them. Hosted by futurist Ari Wallach, the series takes us on a journey around the world that is filled with discovery, hope and possibility. Joining us is the award-winning director and writer, Andrew Morgan. As he notes, we all have the potential to make the world a better place, even in a time of chaos and complexity. Stay tuned.
Matthew Sherwood 00:39
Andrew Morgan, welcome to Factual America. How are things with you?
Andrew Morgan 00:45
I'm good. Thanks for having me. Excited to talk to you.
Matthew Sherwood 00:47
Well, we're excited, too. it's great to have you on. Just to remind our viewers and listeners, we're talking about A Brief History of the Future. Episodes One and Two have released already on PBS earlier this month, the next four over the rest of April and the first two weeks of May, and it's also streaming on the PBS app. So, do check it out. So, yes, again, it's great to have you on. We usually start off by asking our filmmakers to give us a synopsis of their film. I don't know, we've got a whole hour at least, probably, to talk about it. I don't know how you sum it up into a synopsis. But give it a good try. What is A Brief History of the Future all about?
Andrew Morgan 01:32 (04:13)
Yeah, it's really looking at some of the major challenges facing humanity, but doing it through the lens of hope and possibility, and really looking at what are the futures that we actually want to live in? You know, we see a lot. And I've certainly made a lot of stories about what we don't want, or what we want to avoid. And sometimes we don't really stop to consider what is it we actually are building towards, you know, what is a tomorrow worth fighting for, worth believing in? And so, the show is hosted by a futurist, Ari Wallach, who, you know, we see him travel around the world to spend time with, you know, folks in all different lines of work, and professions, and countries, and communities, who are really investing their lives in this idea of how do I leave the world better than I found it, and how do I think in a longer term perspective than just the next five minutes? You know, where have we come from, as a human species, where are we now, and where could we go, moving forward. So, yeah, it's big and sprawling and huge, but that's my best attempt.
Matthew Sherwood 02:43 (05:56)
Yes, it's - I mean, an amazing challenge to take this on. I mean, to give people perspective, if you haven't seen it yet - and this is not even doing it justice - but it'd be like being in the early days of the Industrial Revolution, and stopping and saying, Okay, what is this thing that we're living through, and where are we going, and, you know, what does it all mean for us? And how is life - society - going to change for better and - hopefully not - but for ill as well. I mean, you, as you pointed out, we tend - one of the episodes talks about this, we've got a lot of dystopian visions of the future, we tend to, whatever it is, wallow in the negative. Why is that? Why do we as humanity tend to do that?
Andrew Morgan 03:27
Well, it's a good question. I mean, I think for a long time in our evolution, that was really beneficial to our survival. You know, we had to look out for the tiger that could eat us, we had to look out for, you know, the weather events that could take out our village. So, we are really wired in our hardware, in our DNA, to look for threats. The problem is, we've now brought ourselves to a place through technology where we are confronted with those threats on a daily, hourly, minute-by-minute basis. And I don't know about you, but I hit a point where I just got really - not so overwhelmed, I found myself kind of burn out a little bit. I've spent a lot of my life making films and projects about injustices or, you know, problems and issues in the world. And I just found myself over the last several years, really, like with a deep sense of fatigue, and a feeling of powerlessness, you know, in the face of a lot of the forces that we face and I just didn't feel inspired to make something else about another problem. And this question that we started this series with of, like, what if we can look at those same problems and challenges because we are in a challenging moment, clearly. But what if we put a different lens on the camera. What if we put a lens of hope on. And that's not to say vague optimism. That's not to say just, you know, cover your ears and close your eyes. It's to say, it's not helpful, if we're so aware of the threats and problems and challenges, and yet we don't want to put one foot in front of the other to do anything about them. Like, what's helpful is to take stock of where we are, to look at it honestly, but then to think through the potential of what we could do to make things better going forward. So, yeah, I think we definitely - we have a bias towards negativity, but we also have, like, this extraordinary capacity for creativity and imagination, and just goodness. And I think sometimes that's lost when all we see and all we're confronted with is humanity at its worst, or its most dangerous.
Matthew Sherwood 05:40 (09:00)
And so, I mean, you've presented a lot as you and with Ari leading, narrating, this, you present a lot of these great stories. I mean, I think in one of the episodes you kind of warn against linear thinking, but I'm going to do a little bit of linear thinking in the sense that I'm going to kind of use your episode structure to kind of go through this a little bit, because it is so - I mean, what is impressive is - oh, it's just nature of storytelling, and we'll talk about that in a few minutes, too - but, how everything just is so interconnected and weaves in, you know, together. So, it is - I mean, that must have been quite the challenge in presenting this story. I mean, I guess if we start with, like, Episode One, so one of the messages to get across is, how do we look beyond our own lifespans, isn't that right? You know, and what has happened? We've become so short termist in things; even those of us who are the most well meaning, right?
Andrew Morgan 06:42
Yeah, no, it's really true. I mean, as the world speeds up, it has gotten easier and easier to truly live in, like, this news cycle. And this news cycle is, like, this 30 minutes, you know, so it's just this kind of - it's this very frantic posture that we've gotten ourselves into. And, yeah, the first episode, we really just kind of look at this idea of, what does it look like to become the great ancestors that the future needs us to be, and, you know, who were the great ancestors, that got us to where we are now, like, you know, there's a lot of courage to be taken from that. This is not, it's not novel to be in a dark chapter of the human story. We've come through many, and, you know, the idea of weaving history into the show is just to take stock of - we're not the first human beings to wrestle with some of these things. We're not the first human beings to ask some of these questions. So, kind of like zooming out, you know, the big idea in Episode One is to just zoom out and say, Look how far we've come. You know, like, for all that we've gotten wrong, look what we've gotten, right. Like, look what we've managed to do on this planet together as a species. And what does it look like to take that kind of perspective towards the future, and towards the challenges we face, knowing that some of them are going to outlive our lifetimes. Some of them are gonna be things that our kids, you know, address and deal with, some of them - there's a spectrum of this human story, that's much bigger than just, you know, the last 30 minutes.
Matthew Sherwood 08:12
And I think - I mean, just thinking about it now. I mean, you don't even have to go that far back in history because just think, even during the pandemic - I mean, we went through a period where, you know, you hear all the stories, it takes 20 years to get a vaccine approved and all this stuff, and we did it in, you know, when we put all our minds to it, and resources, we got them approved in record time, you know, and we got through - I mean, obviously, a lot of people didn't, but we, you know, we survived, humanity survived, we've moved, you know, and that was something that almost seemed incredible or impossible to have achieved, and yet we did it. And that's only a few years ago.
Andrew Morgan 08:50
Well, it's so true. And that's like, I mean, it's just so true of the human story in general. There's a Dutch historian at one point in the season that talks about this idea that everything that we take for granted now, was once seen as impossible...
Matthew Sherwood 09:05
Right.
Andrew Morgan 09:05
... you know, things that you and I do in our daily life were unthinkable. And, yeah, again, it just speaks to our potential as a species. And, you know, it's easy to see the darkness, it takes creativity to see the light. And there's a real need for that, I think, in this moment, maybe more than ever before.
Matthew Sherwood 09:28 (12:09)
And I guess - and then again, back to the series, and that then sort of gets us to Episode Two, there is this acknowledgement of the chaos and the complexity that we find ourselves in, and there's a reason we all are feeling so discombobulated. And it's kind of good to hear that - I mean, I guess so many of us think we might be the only ones.
Andrew Morgan 09:50
No, it's tremendous. I mean, like what we're living through right now is extraordinary and unprecedented in many, many ways. I mean, Ari talks about in Episode Two, this idea that, you know, throughout history, you have these moments where there's huge upheaval or technological innovation or change in one given industry or area of society or part of life. And what we're experiencing right now is like, in every area, in every part of life; like, the technology and the tools that we have created have outpaced our evolutionary ability to handle them. Like, we have more information than we're able to process. We have more; like, there's - for the first time, we're really like - it's really hard for a lot of us to find our footing, you know, there's this feeling like, not just things are speeding up, but there's this feeling like, so many of the cornerstones of society that we've counted on, or depended on, or relied on, are changing and are being challenged and are being threatened. So, yeah, it's not unusual to have a level of anxiety right now. It's not uncommon or out of place to struggle with, you know, mental health issues, and, you know, all that; like, that's a, it's a really real thing. And again, like, the show that we made is not trying to offset that; you know, we're not trying to sidestep that. It's almost like that is so true right now; this is a season of chaos and complexity. But what are the seeds of creativity that can be found there? What is the potential of this moment? And how do we turn it from reactionary; just: I can't get off my couch, to...
Matthew Sherwood 11:39
Right.
Andrew Morgan 11:40
... I have a role to play. There's actually a way forward here.
Matthew Sherwood 11:44
And what is that way forward? I mean, without giving away all that, you know, what people are going to eventually see in the latter episodes, certainly the last one, too, on the future, of what a very positive future could actually look like? I mean, what did you take away, because you're following Ari all around, and you're interviewing all these people. What are the lessons you've learned from all this?
Andrew Morgan 12:07 (14:48)
Yeah, I mean, I came into this show... I was in a heavier place, you know, I mean, if I'm being honest, like, I was - I really did feel overwhelmed, and still do on some days, about what we're facing on this planet right now. And, you know, making the show and spending time with people all over the world who are using their lives to contribute and to move it forward in big ways, in small ways, and ways on their own, and ways with community. It just rubbed off on me; like, it was tremendously inspiring. And I think to your question, you know, obviously, there's not one size fits all answer. And we didn't go around the world to try to hold up these people and say, they have the answer for everything. The show is really just this attempt to spark people's imagination. But the central idea is that the future is not a fixed thing coming at us. It's a verb, it's something we do, it's something we create every day. And that can be in choices as small as how we're raising our kids, and how we're talking to our colleagues, in what we're creating, and what we're putting out into the world. I think the answer is going to come in more of us starting to see ourselves as a part of this thing that adds up to be called history. Like, we're not bystanders just watching the story unfold. And I think, for me, I felt making the show more and more this feeling of an invitation, this feeling of it's really an extraordinary gift to be alive. It's deeply mysterious, this whole idea that we're awake and alive in here for a few moments, and we get to make things and leave something behind. And that that's an invitation, you know, that's really an invitation to see ourselves. Because, you know, the stuff that we're facing, like, this is not something that one rich person is going to fix, or one genius is going to fix, or one tech entrepreneur is going fix. This is like, we're in the process of fundamentally rethinking and reshaping how we organise the world. And that's going to take all of us at every different level, from inventors, to artists, to politicians; like, you name it. The solution is going to be as big as some of the problems themselves.
Matthew Sherwood 14:33
And I think was it - one of your subjects says, in doing a similar journey as you did, the thing that struck them was they were expecting a lot of people to be focused on, well, like you said, some of these individuals, they've done some amazing things, so, focusing on what they're doing, but everyone really seemed to be focused on more the greater whole, the communities that they were a part of, and communities that have done things that whether it's a bunch of you know, a town in Scotland that's rewilding, or whether it's, you know, this town in India that's hooked itself up to its own electrical grid, you know, these are all these, you know - and we don't all have to be scientists, we don't all have to be experts on energy or whatever we have been called to do, just doing it to the best of our ability and realising that we are contributing to a greater whole.
Andrew Morgan 15:31
100%. And it's so local, and it's so small, oftentimes, it's so community based. And it really is, it's looking at what have we left behind that we want to go back and retrieve. And what do we want to create more of, looking forward. And it is, it's amazing, you know, when you make a show like this, and we travelled in, I think it's like, five continents, 15 countries, 40 something cities. It's like, you're kind of in this overwhelming place when you're in production of experiencing all these things in a very short, dense period of time. And the sameness of what people say starts to really emerge, and no matter where they are, how powerful they are, how wealthy they are, the desire for community, the desire to be connected to nature, the desire to - it's like, we know these things, you know, like, we know the things that lead to human flourishing. And yet, so often we've designed our world in a way that's antithetical to that. So, the process of creating what comes next is partly going to be a process of retrieval. And that's great news, because like, in some instances, we can retrace our steps on that path.
Matthew Sherwood 16:45
Right, right. And just as remembering what it means to be human, which is, you know, reconnecting with nature. I think we've become so divorced from our surroundings, and I know you deal with that as well, and whether it's the physical surroundings that architects create, or just getting back to nature is something that somewhere along the way, maybe it's a byproduct of the Industrial Revolution, another period that I've mentioned previously, that of upheaval and stuff, but, you know, I think it's all very hopeful. And one thing, I also found very interesting, and then it must be very hopeful for you, given what you do for a living is this importance of storytelling in terms of the piece.
Andrew Morgan 17:39 (20:20)
Yeah, the third episode is called Once Upon A Time, and it really is all about the stories we tell, because it really matters, not just what we're creating, not just what we're doing, but like, how we actually see ourselves in this story, and who's a part of that story, who's not a part of that story. Who gets to tell the story, who doesn't get to tell the story. And it really is, yeah, we, you know, we spent time in Hollywood obviously with filmmakers, but we also spent time with people all over the world who are fundamentally rewriting the story and reimagining, you know, what comes next because it's kind of fascinating how, like, so much - as human beings - like, so much of how we act, and so much of what we buy, and what we do, and how - it all is coming ultimately, from a story that we've been told about the world, a story, we've been told about ourselves, a role that we've come to believe that we're here to play, and to kind of think through how do we expand that? How do we rethink that? How do we reshape that is really, really fascinating. And to your point earlier, you know, it is true that if you go look for, you know, stories, clearly I'm very focused on film and television, but like, if you look for stories about where the world, kind of where it all goes to hell, the list is, like, miles long. I mean, it is like, it's wild. And then if you look for stories about where maybe we got it right, you know, in a future where we created something not perfect, but certainly better, there's just shockingly few of those out there. And that has a real effect. You know, it has a real effect that we've really trained; again, we've trained ourselves to respond to fear, and fear can be powerful and fear can be motivating. But at this point, it really feels like we have pushed that about as far as it can go to the point that I think that it's not effective anymore. Like, in my own life, I feel that. I'm like, I just can't be terrified into changing anymore. I can't be - I'm a little numb to it because I've just experienced it so, so much. So, kind of thinking through how do we reorient the story that we're telling about the future, to be one that is, you know, not just robots and flying cars, but actually fundamentally a world that's human centric. That's taking into consideration the needs of all life forms on this planet, not just a few, that starts to be really inspiring. Like, for me, that starts to be, wait, we could organise the world in such a better way than we are right now. That's the seed for like, Okay, well, then let's get busy doing it.
Matthew Sherwood 20:44
No, you make a good point. I mean, I think - and I'm not going to pick on any docs, because a lot of the stuff you're talking about is dramatic narratives as well, but we had - in the early days of this podcast, we even had an academic on who had actually studied this, and basically said a lot of these documentaries of another decade or so talking about the future and climate crisis and stuff, actually, were self-defeating, because they were just all almost like trying to scare us to death. And in that, you know, what we've all found out, what it does is it just - it paralyses many of us. If you think that things are so bad, well, then what can I do? I mean, me putting out the recycling every week, does that really make that much of a difference? You know, I mean, it does, but, you know, it's kind of a - it has become - you know, people need - not to get into politics, but it's also like, parties that do well often are ones that can sell - they are saying no, we have a vision for the future, right. People don't respond - as much as we think they do, and elections are increasingly all run on negative campaigning and stuff like that. But when people really get behind something, it's when there's a positive message, you know, a vision of a future that we can all buy into.
Andrew Morgan 22:06 (25:04)
Absolutely, and at every moment in our history where we've done extraordinary things collectively and together, it's been because of exactly what you just said. And I think, like, finding ways to help people see themselves as a part of the solution, not the problem is huge. There's a character in the show, this guy, Bren Smith, who was a fisherman, and, you know...
Matthew Sherwood 22:30
I love that guy.
Andrew Morgan 22:30
... he's so cool. He was fishing, you know, grew up as a fisherman and he, you know, experienced the collapse of a lot of the fish stocks in his part of the world, and saw tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of fishermen be put out of work. And he kind of has this moment where he just comes to realise, like, environmental issues are not some abstract, out there, liberal only - this is a very blue collar guy, blue collar community - he's like, this is life and death, this is kitchen table issues, this is like, will there be jobs on a dying planet kind of issues. And he starts to - long story short, he begins to farm seaweed and grow kelp, and they're using it for all kinds of incredible things. But what's incredible is not just what they're doing with kelp, and all the ways they can use that as nutrients for soil and packaging all these things. What's incredible is he's built this network where he's got all these former fishermen - I mean, like thousands and thousands of them around the country and world - training and seeing how they can take their skill set, they can take this thing that they, you know, they have pride, they own their own boat. These are not folks that just want to throw all that away, they want to take what they're good at, and they want to use it. And it's that thing you're saying of like, not just beating people over the head with a problem and saying, you know, you're the worst, and this is awful, and, you know, this will never get better, but to say, Hey, this is serious, but there is a path forward, and you want to be a part of that? Like, you want to be a part of a world where you and your kids could have a viable career doing this thing that you love and also doing it in a way that's, you know, really respectful of the natural environment. That's just - that's really different than some of what we've done before. And again, I've been guilty of the other. I think, like, there was a moment in time where, you know, the internet was new, there was this kind of feeling, like, if we could just shine a light on everything it'll get better, and I think we're at a turning point; we're at a turning point now where the fear is there. I think a lot of people take these threats really seriously. If there's an action usually it's because they feel helpless, not because they don't see it as a threat.
Matthew Sherwood 24:49
Right. I think, I love - Bren Smith is great because personally I just remember, like, as a kid having these Jacques Cousteau books and they're all talking about how seaweed - we're all going to be eating seaweed - and then I was even talking to my kids the other day, and I was like, Yeah, I don't know whatever happened with that. I remember writing a school report saying we're gonna have seaweed in our kelp and our ice cream, and then lo and behold, this guy, this fisherman from, like, Newfoundland I think, comes and actually, he's - I don't know if it even gets brought up - but like you said, he's got this whole network of people who are farming kelp and things. And it's quite - I mean, it's - he went and did it. He just, I mean, I think that's the other thing, what's so inspiring, is that these people are - the people you highlight - they all, they just, whatever, got inspired and just started doing it, right. I mean, I just thought it makes me also think of the guys doing the mushroom thing. That was amazing, you know?
Andrew Morgan 25:46
Yeah.
Matthew Sherwood 25:46
You know, just growing - who knew all that packaging that we don't know what to do with - the styrofoam peanuts go all over the place and take up landfills and things. He's growing mushrooms to do that. And it all biodegrades and stuff, and these facilities that people have. And they're obviously getting - I mean, I'm an economist by background. I mean, these people are obviously getting financing. I'm not saying they're getting rich, but there are - there is money here. People are, you know, funding these solutions. So, it's very, very inspiring.
Andrew Morgan 26:22
Yeah, and it kind of speaks to that, like, idea that we've almost been told that we are alive in this moment, like, at the end of history, where we've come as far as we could come, we've made all this cool stuff, we've got all this great stuff. And then here we are, and we're just, you know, we're consumers, we're just here, we're buying, we're eating. But to kind of rethink that of like, we're just at this moment in the human story. Look how far we've come, look at all of what we need to do moving forward. And yeah, to your point, to see people that are taking their role in that really seriously is deeply inspiring. There's an architect, named Bjarke Ingles, who is doing all this incredible, incredible stuff, totally rethinking architecture around the world, but he has this line that I love, where he just says, You know, our cities - he's talking about, you know, actual urban planning and cities - he's like, Our cities are only the way they are, because that's how far we've gotten so far.
Matthew Sherwood 27:15
Right.
Andrew Morgan 27:16
And I love that line. Like, I've thought about that in my own life so much, like, this is just where we've gotten so far. And, you know, for those of us alive in this moment, it's incumbent on us. And it's also really, to your point, it's exciting for us to think about the fact that there's a lot to do right now, here in this moment. Like, I love the Jacques Cousteau thing; it reminds me of like that scene in Truman Show.
Matthew Sherwood 27:40
Right.
Andrew Morgan 27:41
Truman's, like, I want to be an explorer. And she's like, No, look - shows a map - everything's already been explored. It's like, you know, there's so much open terrain right now. And that is really exciting.
Matthew Sherwood 27:52
All right, I think that takes us - let's give our listeners and viewers a quick break, and we'll be right back with Andrew Morgan, the director and writer of A Brief History of the Future. Episodes One and Two have released on PBS. The rest are over the next four weeks, and you can also get it on the PBS app.
Factual America Midroll 28:11
You're listening to Factual America. Subscribe to our mailing list or follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or X to keep up-to-date with new releases for upcoming shows. Check out the show notes to learn more about the programme, our guests, and the team behind the production. Now back to Factual America.
Matthew Sherwood 28:29
Welcome back to Factual America. I'm here with Andrew Morgan, the acclaimed director and writer of A Brief History of the Future. Episodes One and Two have already dropped on PBS. All six episodes are available on the PBS app. And I'm sure there are other ways of streaming it. Just Google it, I'm sure you'll find it. Andrew, you know, one thing that Ari Wallach does throughout the series is he asks people what, you know, 30 years from now, you know, what was this era that we lived through? I mean, if you were to - if he was to ask you that question, how would you answer that? What is this - how are we going to look back thirty years from now? I mean, I would argue - I mean, you're probably going to have to wait longer than that. But I understand why you use the thirty years horizon because people want to think about themselves still being alive. But what do you think people - how are historians - how are people going to be looking back on this period that we're in?
Andrew Morgan 29:34 (32:15)
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think this is going to be - we're going to look back on this moment as the intersection. And I think the pivotal intersection where we had developed some extraordinary tools, and it was up for grabs, what those tools were going to be used for. And I think, you know, it's not hyperbolic to look at this moment, as full of unprecedented potential. I mean, like, truly in the entire human story, there's been all kinds of intersections, there's been all kinds of forks in the road. But this is the intersection to me. I mean, when you start to look at what we're doing with artificial intelligence and how we're setting those pools up to work, to what end will those work? Will they work in service of humanity, alongside humanity, or will they follow a corporate interest or, you know, you name it - when I look at what we're doing with synthetic biology, when I look at what we're doing food, and I look at what we're doing - certainly, you know, the natural world has raised all the alarm bells it can possibly raise, to say this is not working; like, the path does not lead forward. So, we have this moment where we're aware of that. We have tools that could enable us to not only tackle that, but to put humanity on a course that's far better than the one that we've been on previously. So, in other words, we can not only offset harm or damage right now, we can actually do profound good moving forward. And I think what we choose to do next in this moment, in this decade, has unbelievable, like, truly staggering potential impact on the rest of the human story.
Matthew Sherwood 31:23 (34:06)
And I think you mentioned AI, I think that's one that again, everyone seems to focus or there's - I think peak dystopian AI was about six months ago, maybe, or maybe about a year, but probably still there, I'm sure, but that's what all the headlines were about. But I think you've got a lot of people come in and - no one's glossing over it, there are concerns there, but we're just at the very early days, aren't we, with AI and potentially what...
Andrew Morgan 31:52
Very early days.
Matthew Sherwood 31:52
... we can achieve. Yeah.
Andrew Morgan 31:54
Yeah, no, I mean, it reminds me of like, when the internet was new, and it was like, you know, those think pieces of like, is the internet bad, or is it good, or - it's like, it's an extraordinary tool. It's like humans developing fire, you know, for the first time; like, it is - we can build universes through these tools, and we can solve real human problems. I mean, again, to that point of us not being at the end of history, like, it's really worth reminding ourselves, we haven't tackled some of the most fundamental challenges yet, like, sometimes we live in the modern world, in this kind of false place of, because our lives are pretty comfortable that we must have - you know, huge parts of this planet, are still living in ways that, like, Karen Washington, a farmer who is in our show, you know, she has this beautiful line where she just says, You know, food, shelter, they're human rights, and we're not there yet. Like, we haven't even - we haven't even achieved the basics for, you know, hundreds of millions and even billions of people on this planet. So, I think that's both humbling, but it's also really deeply challenging in this moment to say; so, as we develop these unprecedented, you know, tools and abilities and capacities through science and innovation, technology, are we going to channel those tools in the work of the great unfinished work in the world, or are we going to use them to further exacerbate the inequalities, to further insulate certain pockets from other pockets? Are we going to - in other words, will the benefits of these new developments be shared more broadly? And to that point, like, you know, that goes way outside of technology, and suddenly you're talking about politics, suddenly you're talking about the basic organisation of the world. And that's the thing, I think, that's more up for grabs than it's ever been. It's not just the tools, it's how are these tools going to be affecting the whole of the human species, not just some.
Matthew Sherwood 34:14 (38:28)
Or I think, even as Ari puts it, in the last episode, he's saying, you know, he has a great - I liked the way he started off, he's talking about how, you know, he's talking to someone and they're talking about smart technology. And, you know, the stories we're hearing a few - over a decade now - ago, about how our fridges were going to order our groceries for us and things like that, and he goes, that's not what it's about. That's, you know, it's about wisdom. It's about do we have the wisdom to do what we need to do. Do we have the, for lack of a better way of putting it, do we have the soul to tackle these issues, you know, and I think it's - actually reminds me of someone I know who's - he actually works with companies trying to create 'soulful' companies, you know, which I find an int - to be honest, I hadn't appreciated as much as I do now when he first launched it. But, you know, getting companies to think - I think this gets back to this whole point we've been talking about is, seeing beyond just short termism, you know, just, you know, forget even just three year plans, most are even thinking just in terms of the current quarter or six months or whatever. So, getting people to really think about the long term and you have, again, the series has so many great examples. And I think everyone should definitely take the time to watch it. It's a great view. And it's - and I think it's a very, you know, I came from it feeling very - at least it worked on one person, I came from feeling very hopeful. So, how did you become involved with this project? Was this your idea?
Andrew Morgan 35:51
No, Ari Wallach called me one day. We were - we had a mutual friend in common. And he just said, Hey, I'm thinking about a show about the future. And, you know, he kind of shared a little bit of his perspective on it. And I was just hooked. I sat down with him and Kathryn, one of our producers, and I was just so ready for something like this, you know, I was so ready, and so eager for something that didn't gloss over the challenges, you know, that we're facing, but also looked beyond that, you know, I mean, to your point, like, the best story we've had about the future is like, a smart refrigerator, or a flying car, it's like, it's so limited. You know, our imagination has been so profoundly limited. So, to kind of think about, like, what if we created a world where there wasn't anyone who didn't have enough food to eat? What if we created a future? What if my kids' kids could live in a world where the natural world that supports us wasn't on the brink, it was thriving. You know, what if, like, those kinds of thoughts just really, really, really, really inspired me. And so, we started to put it together and kind of dream about what it could be like and what it could look like. And one of the most exciting things to me, I think, as we developed it, was this idea that you see in the show, where it's not like a linear path. It's not like we have an episode on food, an episode on housing, it's like this attempt to make this really ambitious like collage where you can't separate these things from each other, like the interconnection between - you know, it sounds so basic, too, but like, that idea, Neil deGrasse Tyson talks about in one of the episodes when we first took that photo of Earth from space, and what that did to people's consciousness of like, Whoa, we're actually - we are really profoundly in this thing together. And I just got inspired about a show that wasn't like, how can I further me and mine, but like, How can I open myself up to the reality because it's not an idea, it's the reality that we are so dependent on each other, and your well being is very attached to my well being. And, you know, the modern world, like, it's such a novelty in human history; like, the way we're living; like, the ways in which our life can be separated by these borders, and ideas and boundaries, and my car and my house and my property and my like, versus the truer reality of when there is suffering in the world it affects us all, you know, when there's suffering in my community, it affects me, when there's, you know, there's that great study, but, like, when the - the greater the inequality gets in society, like the life expectancy goes down for the wealthy, you know, it's like, this is reality of like, we can't separate ourselves from what's happening around us. So, yeah, that kind of creative ambition, that kind of scope, that kind of imagination was just so inspiring, and so fun. And just like, honestly, like, it was one of those projects that like, it was just fun to make. And we had the most incredible crew and team and like, it was just, there was just a lot of joy that went into it, you know, so for me, now to have it out and people responding to it is so fun, because if no one had responded - to your point, like if it was just me, and our little team like, it did a number on us for sure.
Matthew Sherwood 39:36
Well, and that certainly comes across because that's what I was going to ask you. I was gonna say. My comment was, it looked like it must have been a lot of fun to work on. I mean, because that does come across. Because it's also - I think you're mirroring and echoing all these people you profile. That's the thing that comes across to me is that, and maybe it's because you're profiling people and individuals who are just passionate about what they do, and they're getting to live this life. They could have, they've had the vision not to go, Well, it would have been easy to just go a standard track that many of us have been pushed through, in terms of career and life. But no, they took that risk. It's not an easy one to take, but then now they're living the life whether it's Bren farming kelp in Connecticut, or if it's, you know, architects or all these people, the woman you mentioned also from New York at the gardens, yeah; you know, all these people, they just come across, there's a, there's a certain peace and happiness that they convey. And it obviously came through with your filmmaking, too, because I noticed also, then at the very end and all the credits, you have the little snapshots and videos of the crew and stuff. And you guys, I mean, who wouldn't have fun travelling around the world getting to...
Andrew Morgan 40:57
They're extraordinary, though. Yeah, they're just the most extraordinary people to - gosh, they're - we have a sweet little family that we do this with. And it's so, so special.
Matthew Sherwood 41:08 (44:16)
And then the challenge here, because we've, you know, and it's down to me, if the listeners are probably thinking this guy's been, you know, the host is rambling all over the place, it is of such an all encompassing, so, as you say, interconnected, maybe even sounds a bit cheesy, but how do you, you know, because you're a writer, and there's - obviously that's an important role with a doc like this, how do you go about bringing all those threads together because that could be overwhelming. It's such a big topic, I can't imagine there's been a bigger topic that anyone's tried to tackle in just six episodes.
Andrew Morgan 41:48
It's certainly ambitious. I, yeah, it was, I think, both the development of this and then also the post-production process on this one were the most immersive and immense creative challenges I've ever experienced. I mean, we really kind of laid out the season as a path of ideas. And so, you know, as I said, like, the episodes don't follow, like, a linear structure, they move and they weave and they work their way around the world, but kind of attached to these different ideas. You know, like Episode Four is all about what it means to be human. Episode Five is all about what does it mean to move forward together, not just alone, and as individuals; like, so, those ideas certainly were like, anchors, you know, they were signposts. But it was staggering. I mean, I think there's, like, 65 characters in the show. I mean, it was - there are a lot of characters in the show who could have held their own episode, they could have held a film; like, they were really that good. And so, finding the ways that their ideas spoke to each other, finding the ways, the similarities in what they were saying, as well as the differences in what they were saying, it was just so fun. I mean, it was so fun to have that much material to work with. And then try to; you know, it's like cooking with spinach this stuff, you know, you start with, like, so much and it gets simpler and simpler and simpler. But yeah, I'm just kind of still, like, creatively hung over from the post process, because it was - it was a big one, for sure.
Matthew Sherwood 43:33 (46:14)
And I have to ask you, as we're about to - I think we're coming close to the end of our time together - but how did Drake and Kylian Mbappe get involved with this? Because that's like - or was that just...
Andrew Morgan 43:45
Yeah, Drake...
Matthew Sherwood 43:46
Go ahead.
Andrew Morgan 43:46
Drake was involved when I got on board. Drake has an extraordinary production studio called DreamCrew. And Drake was a producer personally, but then his team was also involved. So, they were, they're great. I mean, they're just, they're phenomenal. They're really serious about making big, beautiful things. So, they were extraordinary. And Kylian came on as a producer. We actually met him in production. So, he was, you know, he was a character in the show first...
Matthew Sherwood 44:19
Right.
Andrew Morgan 44:19
... and he had a lot of vision and a lot of passion for the project and for, you know, getting it out in the world in a big way. So, he came on board. But yeah, people - it was kind of funny; like, seeing people's faces when it was like PBS, Drake, Mbappe; like, a lot of different...
Matthew Sherwood 44:36
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Morgan 44:36
... voices. you know, combined. But yeah, it's all, you know, an effort in, like, we want a lot of people to see the show, and we want, you know, we want this story to really get out there. And so, some of these folks being attached and a part of it has just kind of helped us amplify that message. So, I'm really grateful for them.
Matthew Sherwood 44:58
Not necessarily about Kylian Mbappe, specifically, because is that something we're going to be seeing more often? I mean, I guess we've had LeBron James, we've had others get involved with a lot of projects, but these athletes who've - obviously they're making a lot of money, then some want to do more than just be known as, and just be, athletes, and Kylian comes across quite well, in this; you know, I was very impressed...
Andrew Morgan 45:22
Yeah...
Matthew Sherwood 45:23
... with what he was saying.
Andrew Morgan 45:23
He's great. No, he's a phenomenal person. I think that it's a natural transition. I mean, I think you're just seeing a lot of folks with influence, kind of starting to own their own storytelling mechanisms more. We've certainly seen that on social media. And so, now to see some of these folks, you know, take that idea and move into, you know, more mass form media; I think so, for sure. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, like, it's easier than ever to make something, it's harder than ever to market something. So, one of the challenges as storytellers is, like, how do you - not only how do you get it made, but how do you really work creatively to ensure that the kind of audience you want to see a show like this is aware of it, and those folks are really helpful in that work.
Matthew Sherwood 45:35 (49:00)
Okay. One last one for you: what's next for you? You just said you're still a bit hungover from this project.
Andrew Morgan 46:26
That's the quote from our conversation!
Matthew Sherwood 46:29
Exactly! "Andrew Morgan Says He's Hungover"! Daily Mail. But I mean, I think it even says on your IMDb profile "telling stories for a better tomorrow", you've told maybe one of the most ultimate stories, what do you do next? Do you have any projects in the works that you can tell us about? Or are you just taking a little bit of a break and wallowing in the aftermath that is this great doc.
Andrew Morgan 47:00
I am taking a little bit of a break, I am developing a couple things. I'm never sure which one's going to go next, you know; this is a funny business. But there's a film that I think we're going to start working on shortly, and there's also a new series. And I always like - it sounds so dumb, but I always like to talk about them more later. Because sometimes they change or they get delayed or whatever. But I'm really interested in this kind of storytelling. And it just, it just fills me with a lot of joy to do it, you know. I love the art and the craft. I love the blood sport, I love how challenging it is. I mean, these are hard things to make, and I - you know, sometimes you're in the middle of one and you're like, I don't know if I can ever do this again, and then you get to the end, and you're like, Let's do it again! Yeah, we've got a special team here, and we're gonna keep making stuff like this for a long time.
Matthew Sherwood 47:56
Good to hear. So, just to remind our listeners and viewers, we've been chatting with Andrew Morgan, the award-winning director and writer of A Brief History of the Future. Its first couple of episodes have released on PBS. The rest are coming over the next few weeks here in April and May of 2024, and you can find all six episodes on the PBS app. And I'm sure in other places. Do check it out. Andrew, we'd love to have you on again some time. So, let us know when those other projects drop, and best of luck and thanks again for making this series.
Andrew Morgan 48:34
Thanks again for having me, man. It's really a fun chat. I appreciate it.
Matthew Sherwood 48:43
Thanks again for joining us on Factual America. A big shout out to everyone at Innersound Audio in York, England for their great studio and fine editing and production skills. A big thanks to Amy Ord, our podcast manager, who ensures we continue getting great guests onto the show and that everything otherwise runs smoothly. Finally, a big thanks to you our listeners. Please keep sending us feedback and episode ideas, whether it is on YouTube, social media, or directly by email. And please also remember to like us and share us with your friends and family wherever you happen to listen or watch podcasts. This is Factual America, signing off.
Factual America Outro 49:23
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